wolfram and hart by est120

ANGELUS ARCANUM

wolfram and hart

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Thursday, April 14, 2005 21:45
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VIEWED: 6200
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Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:54 AM

okay, i have seen basically all the episodes of angel. albeit, i have missed a handful (maybe 5). currently in the TNT reruns, the series is right at the start of season 3 when the gang is trying to return to our dimension from pylea. here is my question:

Select to view spoiler:

in the episode "through the looking glass", wesley is studying from some books from the covenant that put cordelia into power and he notices that the three volumes have symbols on the front cover, namely a wolf, a ram and a hart. thus, wolfram and hart. now, granted i have not seen all the episodes, i am wondering if this connection to the law firm of wolfram and hart ever comes up again? i do not remember it being mentioned in the latter half of season 3 nor in any susequent seasons. is this just a side story that gets abandoned?

anyway, i am just curious.

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:40 AM

GROUNDED

Abandonned.

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:37 PM

SLOWSMURF

I think a big point was simply to point out how large their area of influence is(inter demensional and such)

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 1:06 PM

FRSCPE1

Didn't Adam's character, Hamilton?, say something about the wolf, the ram, and the hart in the last or near last episode? I might be mistaken, but I think I remember hearing the line.

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 2:39 PM

KAELOR03

Illyria mentioned the Wolf, Ram & Hart were small fries when she was in power, way back in the good ole days.

Chaos, Panic & Disorder My Work Here Is Done.

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 2:46 PM

EMBERS

Not abandoned...
when they refer to the 'Senior Partners' they do not mean anyone on this plain...
they are refering to the mystical powers who had also been in Pylea...

so finding those books showed the tie in

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 3:03 PM

MER

And you know, it took me up until some months ago to actually understand what they were "Oh no-ing" about when they showed those books. *laughs* I'm not very good at Symbols.

You can't help but wonder where else in universe or Buffy episodes it's mentioned before Angel came around (or something similar to that notion).

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Friday, November 26, 2004 1:08 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
Not abandoned...
when they refer to the 'Senior Partners' they do not mean anyone on this plain...
they are refering to the mystical powers who had also been in Pylea...

so finding those books showed the tie in

Perhaps, but it doesn't really have any influence on any of the other episodes.

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Friday, November 26, 2004 3:00 AM

EMBERS

well before the visit to Pylea I think Angel thought that Wolfram&Hart was all humans,
I thought that what he learned in Pylea was his first time knowing that the 'Senior Partners' were almost mystical in nature....
or had he already visited the 'White Room'?
I get mixed up in my chronology of Ats sometimes...
So, altho I agree they could have cut out the entire visit to Pylea (except for finding Fred & meeting Gru) without actually altering the story line of Ats, still it was nice to have that tie-in with W&H for our edification.

plus no one would have wanted to miss Joss Whedon's Dance of Joy

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Friday, November 26, 2004 3:35 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
well before the visit to Pylea I think Angel thought that Wolfram&Hart was all humans,
I thought that what he learned in Pylea was his first time knowing that the 'Senior Partners' were almost mystical in nature....
or had he already visited the 'White Room'?
I get mixed up in my chronology of Ats sometimes...

plus no one would have wanted to miss Joss Whedon's Dance of Joy

they had not visited the white room yet (which is an extremely creepy place, by the way). your explanation makes sense. i will buy that.

and of course, who would want to miss the dancing. so funny. i love the conversations between lorne and his mother, angel and landok while lorne's brother is dancing in the background. so funny. "numfar! no longer do the dance of joy!"

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Friday, November 26, 2004 10:39 AM

GROUNDED

Angel already knows the Senior Partners are not human - go rewatch Reprise.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 7:07 AM

ZEEK

I think the books were just there so that wes and the others could find out that the priest dudes were evil. That's all really.

The thing I was disappointed about was never getting to see any of the senior partners. Are they humans? Demons? A mix? Floating balls of light? What?

I always sorta hoped Joss would blind side us with something like the senior partners and the powers that be end up being one in the same or something. I don't know how he could work that out but it coulda been cool. Maybe when Jasmine came around he could have done it. Something like the powers that be had them doing good things but they were really just setting things up for something bad to happen. OK I'm done rambling.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 11:16 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I think the books were just there so that wes and the others could find out that the priest dudes were evil. That's all really.

The thing I was disappointed about was never getting to see any of the senior partners. Are they humans? Demons? A mix? Floating balls of light? What?

I always sorta hoped Joss would blind side us with something like the senior partners and the powers that be end up being one in the same or something. I don't know how he could work that out but it coulda been cool. Maybe when Jasmine came around he could have done it. Something like the powers that be had them doing good things but they were really just setting things up for something bad to happen. OK I'm done rambling.

I agree about the books. I think they were there to give the characters natural momentum to wrap up the story, to make them think we can't hang around, we are in imminent danger, we have to get the hell out of here now. And also to remind/inform the characters that the senior partners are bigger and badder than they originally thought.

As to the senior partners and the P'sTB being one in the same, I think they could have pulled it off. They could have said that in everything you have to have balance; light and dark, black and white, up and down, good and evil. In order to preserve the balance of nature they had to play both sides against each other. It would have been quite a blow to Angel & Co to learn that they had been serving both good and evil.

Ka is a wheel, time but a face on the water.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 1:13 PM

GROUNDED

I think that's pretty much the sentiment of a lot of S2, culminating in the best quote ever: "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

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Friday, December 3, 2004 7:27 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I think that's pretty much the sentiment of a lot of S2, culminating in the best quote ever: "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

I agree Grounded, that is one of my favorite quotes of all time.

Ka is a wheel, time but a face on the water.

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Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:52 PM

SHANYU

Quote:
Originally posted by est120:
okay, i have seen basically all the episodes of angel. albeit, i have missed a handful (maybe 5). currently in the TNT reruns, the series is right at the start of season 3 when the gang is trying to return to our dimension from pylea. here is my question:

Select to view spoiler:

in the episode "through the looking glass", wesley is studying from some books from the covenant that put cordelia into power and he notices that the three volumes have symbols on the front cover, namely a wolf, a ram and a hart. thus, wolfram and hart. now, granted i have not seen all the episodes, i am wondering if this connection to the law firm of wolfram and hart ever comes up again? i do not remember it being mentioned in the latter half of season 3 nor in any susequent seasons. is this just a side story that gets abandoned?

anyway, i am just curious.

That concept was far from abandonded, the entire show rests on the back of how big and powerful the wolf the ram and the hart are. They are as continuously said in season 5 a multi-dimensional corperation. Illyria knows of the wolf ram and hart from her time. And hamilton talks about the power of the wolf ram and heart being in his blood, running through his veins(which ironically leads to the death of hamilton... really shouldnt have said blood)But this concwept is constantly metions throught the course of the show.

"You can live with a man for fourty years , share his meals, talk on every subject, then tie him up, and hold him over the volanoes edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man"

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Friday, February 18, 2005 2:12 PM

GROUNDED

Mentioning and actually doing something with it are two entirely different things.

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Tuesday, February 22, 2005 6:20 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Mentioning and actually doing something with it are two entirely different things.

The series was prematurely cancelled. I believe they would have ultimately revealed the mystery of the Senior Partners (the wolf, the ram, and the hart) had they gotten 2 more seasons to tell the story. Over the 5 seasons, the question "Who are the Senior Partners and how do I get to them?" was answered in small increments with each little mention of W,R & H. They simply didn't get the chance to finish the answer.

In BtVS, they raised the question of the first Slayer, but didn't fully reveal how she came to be until the final season. Similarly, they introduced the First and its bringers in season 2 as seemingly the monster of the week, but didn't fully explain their significance until season 7.

So no, I do not believe the clue to W,R,&H was abandoned. Just the opposite. It was a crucial revelation that the were meting out in small rations. This was the first time that we were told the Senior Partners are not 2 (W&H), but 3 (W,R,&H) --and that they have some connection to the animal forms of a wolf, a ram, and a hart. We can infer that they are inextricably entwined with one another, and that the 3 can only have power together (like the books). With Illyria's comment, we know that the 3 are ancient and have been together from the beginning of time, when they were only a tad above vampires. Now they have gotten so powerful that they can affect multiple dimensions and even have worshippers (at least in Pylea, and probably others as well).

In my mind, I imagine them to have started out somewhat like the demon version of the Triad in BtVS. Over eons, they have managed to evolve into godlike powers. I believe had the series had a chance to continue, Joss would have eventually revealed who they are, what their agenda is, and where Angel and the prophecies fit in.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:37 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
In BtVS, they raised the question of the first Slayer, but didn't fully reveal how she came to be until the final season. Similarly, they introduced the First and its bringers in season 2 as seemingly the monster of the week, but didn't fully explain their significance until season 7.

Joss has mentioned in interviews that they didn't plan things very far ahead. I very much doubt the First was conceived as a future nemesis, 4 seasons in advance.

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Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:27 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
In my mind, I imagine them to have started out somewhat like the demon version of the Triad in BtVS.

*collapses in hysterical giggles*

"So. . . Wanna take over the multiverse?"
". . . Okay."
"Sure."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, April 7, 2005 10:55 AM

THIEFJEHAT

I'll add my opinion to this one:

The Wolf, The Ram, and The Hart ARE the senior partners. All 3. They do not dwell on this plane. They don't dwell in Pylea either. But they very much want to CONTROL these planes along with others.

Lets go way back to buffy season 1. At the opening to one of the very earliest episodes Giles tells the tale of how long before humanity came to be on Earth, Demons ruled over all. In other tales (non-buffyverse) such creatures have been refered to as the pre-dead, or those that came before and are no longer. Giles tells us that as time passed humanity came into greater power until the age of the demons came to an end. Those demons that weren't destroyed by humans left for other planes. The last demon to leave fed on a human and when their blood mingled that human became part demon. When that human bit another and another, vampires came to be. These events are refered to many times such as in the graphic novel "Tales of the Slayers" in the navajo creation tale, in Giles season 1 BtVS tale, or in Lindsey's AtS season 5 comment about "drop kicking the demons out of this plane" refering to what had gone before. In any case, the demons left, at least the true form demons. Leaving the demons of non true form to be encountered today, as stated by Anya in BtVS season 3 in reference to the fact the mayor was assending into true form.

Now back to the subject at hand. Illyria is(was) a pre-dead. Her true form was that strange creature depected in Wesley's book but she's stuck in Fred's body. Illyria desperately wants to assend back into her true form, raise her army of doom, and take the earth by force. She cannot do this. She cannot because her time is gone. She should be dust along with the rest of her kind.

The Wolf, The Ram, and The Hart are also pre-dead. They, however, are not demons who were destroyed by humanity. They belong to some of those that fled. They too know their time is done. However, they still want to control this plane and others. Illyria recognizes them from Wesley's comment. She stated that they were the lowliest of her kind, just above the level of vampire half-breeds. But that was millions of years ago. They may have been lowly compared to Illyria, but they are godlike to mortal man. And in the present day they may well be the most influential source of evil active in the multiverse. I have read rumors that the 3 are some sort of a triad, being(s) of a 3-in-one nature, much like the furies. (rumor only, I have no buffyverse proof of it) Some realms, like Pylea, are utterly under their thumb. Others like earth, aren't.

The 3 senior partners, The Wolf, The Ram, and The Hart, represent the dark side of humanity. Holland Manners showed this to Angel in the elevator ride to the "Home Office" Lindsey reinforced it with his comments in season 5. Satellite offices of Wolfram & Hart represent the connection they have with this plane. They are surely connected to others as well, most likely in strange alien forms that would not be understandable by us.

This question still exists of course: Why don't the senior partners just manifest themselves in this plane and take it? The answer is never formally given in any buffyverse tale, but non-buffyverse lore in the realm of vertigo comics would hold that one of the universal "rules" is that the time of the pre-dead is over. Another "rule" that DOES apply to the buffyverse is "all magic has a price". There are other rules as well. I believe that Joss was eventually going to end up with all these facts revealed but time ran out on his show. It explains why Illyria's army wasn't waiting for her return. She had passed on before all the pre-dead had been expelled from the earth so she simply didn't know. When she sees that nothing is as she left it she's utterly shocked into silence. As realization hits her she knows that she is stuck in the non true form human shell formerly known as Winefred Burkel. The senior partners on the other hand know full well what the rules are. They existed through it all. All that's left for them is to cast their evil influence into this plane and try to corrupt the heart of humanity.

You might notice that references to The wolf, The Ram, and The Hart all start coming quickly there in the last 8 episodes of season 5. I believe strongly that Joss was going to slowly reveal the nature of the triad in seasons 6 & 7 but suddenly he was told season 5 was going to be it. With a drop dead end date on his show he was forced to cram in info about them, thus we were handed Illyria and Hamiltion's comments. What's sad is that there was more to be revealed but he had no choice but to put a rush job on it.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, April 7, 2005 11:37 AM

GROUNDED

The season two ep Reprise made some references to the nature of the Senior Partners, going so far as to have one of them manifest. I haven't watched it in a while so I can't remember all the pertinent quotes.

Oh and it's Holland Manners ;)

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Thursday, April 7, 2005 12:03 PM

THIEFJEHAT

Holland Manners. I was just looking that up to verify correct spelling. Spelling edited. thanks.

I just noticed that in the episode about #5, when he's brooding in the bar in the late 50's about his dead brothers it's Holland that hands him card and offers him a job as a mail clerk. That's how I just verified the spelling but you caught me to quick.

The senior partner that manifested in season 2 was in a non-true form and was also bound to the ring that kept it manifested. When angel pulled the ring off it was undone. A true form would not be bound by requirements. Wes also named the demon in that episode too, so I'm not sure if it really was a senior partner or more of an avatar of sorts. In either case it was bound to summoning rules and was only staying a short while. I viewed this like a CEO or VP taking a limo ride to a regional office to "keep morale up", which in the case of Wolfram & Hart, surely involved imposing fear and intimidation.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Monday, April 11, 2005 12:25 PM

ZEEK

Wow thiefjehat, that was some good stuff.

I always just sort of put the senior partners out in the ether somewhere floating around. I never really got any good feel for what they were or their motivations. That helped put all the very tiny hints about them all together a bit. While there is still plenty Joss never got around to telling us...at least it's a better picture in my mind.

Didn't it seem weird to anyone that early in Season 1 it sure seemed like Wolfram and Hart wanted Angel very dead. Then it changed to wanting him alive because of his role in the apocalypse. Then it was like the senior partners had been focused on him for his whole existance. If the last part is true you'd think they would have known all about him day 1 of Season 1. Just seemed like the idea only came to the writers later.

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 9:45 PM

FREDIKAYLLOW

The way i figure it, was that the Wolfram and Hart employees didn't realise at the time that Angel was important. Maybe the Senior Partners thought they'd test the employees, to see how they handle the situation, rather than let them know straight away not to harm Angel.
Also, why did they try to bring the books home from Pylea? The books didn't come through the portal, as the gang should have known they wouldn't. If the book they used to come to Pylea couldn't exist in Pylea, then they should have known that the same rules apply. Or was the fact that the gang didn't have the books on Earth a mistake? Or am I completely off par with this question?

No Power In The 'Verse Can Stop Me
XOXOX-FREDIKAYLLOW-XOXOX

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