Angel Existentialism by Declan

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Angel Existentialism

POSTED BY: DECLAN
UPDATED: Sunday, May 21, 2006 05:19
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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:56 PM

I seem to recall that there is a quote somewhere in the 5 seasons of Angel, something like:

"If it doesn't matter what we do... what we do is all that matters" [or... all that matters is what we do].

A couple of questions. Does anyone recall the episode and the quote? I thought it was one of the quotes printed on the DVD's but I can't find it (although, I may have seen it in FIVE SEASONS OF ANGEL, which I don't have available).

I do recall other existential references in Angel/Buffy, including one scene where he is reading a Sartre or other existential novel.

I guess a further question is: does this quote make any sense? Is it profound? Or, is it Buckaroo Banzai ("Remember. Wherever you go, there you are")?

Or, is it typical existentialism? Which I never really "got" in college, 25+ years ago but, who knows, it may make sense to an immortal character who has a couple of centuries on me.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:56 PM

I seem to recall that there is a quote somewhere in the 5 seasons of Angel, something like:

"If it doesn't matter what we do... what we do is all that matters" [or... all that matters is what we do].

A couple of questions. Does anyone recall the episode and the quote? I thought it was one of the quotes printed on the DVD's but I can't find it (although, I may have seen it in FIVE SEASONS OF ANGEL, which I don't have available).

I do recall other existential references in Angel/Buffy, including one scene where he is reading a Sartre or other existential novel.

I guess a further question is: does this quote make any sense? Is it profound? Or, is it Buckaroo Banzai ("Remember. Wherever you go, there you are")?

Or, is it typical existentialism? Which I never really "got" in college, 25+ years ago but, who knows, it may make sense to an immortal character who has a couple of centuries on me.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:19 PM

Its kinda profound. Dont remember wich episode or the exact phrasing but I remember the scene.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:19 PM

Its kinda profound. Dont remember wich episode or the exact phrasing but I remember the scene.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:19 PM

Its kinda profound. Dont remember wich episode or the exact phrasing but I remember the scene.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:19 PM

Its kinda profound. Dont remember wich episode or the exact phrasing but I remember the scene.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:19 PM

Its kinda profound. Dont remember wich episode or the exact phrasing but I remember the scene.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:19 PM

Its kinda profound. Dont remember wich episode or the exact phrasing but I remember the scene.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:05 PM

It's in the episode "Epiphany", right after he has sex with Darla and saves Kate. When it comes to existentialism, I got nothing.

_________________________________
One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://www.serenityday.org/
http://forum.serenityday.org/

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:33 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I take it as a bit of a paraphrasing of a quote variously attributed to Confucius, Ghandi, and even Oscar Wilde:

"Nothing that you do is very important, but it is very important that you do it."

Look at it like the "butterfly effect" - a butterfly flits its tiny wings, which causes an imperceptible change in the wind pattern, which leads to a squall becoming a hurricane and devastating an entire region. Or not. It's just a way of looking at things and realizing that even the tiniest actions or inactions can have major consequences.

Or, in Angel's case, I think what he means is that, if nothing matters about the way you act and live, if none of it will have any impact on the outcome, then the way in which you do those things becomes all that DOES matter. He's all about atonement; he's done unspeakable things in his past, and while he KNOWS he can never undo them or repay them, he also knows that the only way he can ever find atonement (whether it be from "god" or within his own mind and soul) is to keep working off that debt, to keep trying. It's not so much WHAT he does that matters, but that he DOES something to try to make the world better, even if not for himself.

Does that make sense?

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:41 PM

Thank you, Dewrastler, for the reference. Now that I know which episode had the quote, I'm going to go back and watch that episode again.

Thank you, Kwicko, for your insightful analysis. I may have been leaning along those lines but I wasn't able to articulate it as well as you.

By the way, after I saw the episode I heard the quote (or something similar) somewhere else. I was leaning toward an existentialist writer but it may have been Oscar Wilde since I watched the biopic on him sometime in the last year. Or it could have been the other suggestions.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:41 PM

Thank you, Dewrastler, for the reference. Now that I know which episode had the quote, I'm going to go back and watch that episode again.

Thank you, Kwicko, for your insightful analysis. I may have been leaning along those lines but I wasn't able to articulate it as well as you.

By the way, after I saw the episode I heard the quote (or something similar) somewhere else. I was leaning toward an existentialist writer but it may have been Oscar Wilde since I watched the biopic on him sometime in the last year. Or it could have been the other suggestions.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Friday, May 19, 2006 6:50 AM

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

Single best line in all of AtS. I hope they didn't pinch it from somewhere else ;)

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Friday, May 19, 2006 1:59 PM

Dear Grounded:

Is that the exact quote? And do you agree that it comes from the episode "Epiphany"? (Sorry, despite my earlier post I haven't gotten back to that episode yet).

But I do think it comes from philosphy somewhere. Now, if I could only remember...

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Friday, May 19, 2006 1:59 PM

Dear Grounded:

Is that the exact quote? And do you agree that it comes from the episode "Epiphany"? (Sorry, despite my earlier post I haven't gotten back to that episode yet).

But I do think it comes from philosphy somewhere. Now, if I could only remember...

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Friday, May 19, 2006 2:06 PM

Dear Grounded:

Yes, this is the exact quote!

From this quote I was able to Google and found the quote and context on the Buffyverse Database at:

http://vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=5048

Angel to Kate: if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
from Epiphany (Season 2) Next Clip in Episode

KATE: I feel like such an idiot.

ANGEL: A lot of that going around.

KATE: I just couldn't... My whole life has been about being a cop. If I'm not part of the force it's like nothing I do means anything.

ANGEL: It doesn't.

KATE: Doesn't what?

ANGEL: Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win.

KATE: You seem kind of chipper about that.

ANGEL: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward, finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it.

KATE: And now you do?

ANGEL: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.

KATE: Yikes. It sounds like you had an epiphany.

ANGEL: I keep saying that. But nobody's listening.

KATE: Well, I'm pretty much convinced, since I'm alive to be convinced.

ANGEL: You know you don't have to be a cop to be...

KATE: I'm okay. Anyway, I'm *not* headed towards another pillathon. - I'm very grateful. I never thought you'd come for me, but... I got cut a huge break and I believe... I don't know what I believe, but I have faith. I think maybe we're not alone in this.

ANGEL: Why?

KATE: Because I never invited you in.

A big thank you to everyone who helped me and contributed to an intelligent discussion.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Friday, May 19, 2006 2:06 PM

Dear Grounded:

Yes, this is the exact quote!

From this quote I was able to Google and found the quote and context on the Buffyverse Database at:

http://vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=5048

Angel to Kate: if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
from Epiphany (Season 2) Next Clip in Episode

KATE: I feel like such an idiot.

ANGEL: A lot of that going around.

KATE: I just couldn't... My whole life has been about being a cop. If I'm not part of the force it's like nothing I do means anything.

ANGEL: It doesn't.

KATE: Doesn't what?

ANGEL: Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win.

KATE: You seem kind of chipper about that.

ANGEL: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward, finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it.

KATE: And now you do?

ANGEL: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.

KATE: Yikes. It sounds like you had an epiphany.

ANGEL: I keep saying that. But nobody's listening.

KATE: Well, I'm pretty much convinced, since I'm alive to be convinced.

ANGEL: You know you don't have to be a cop to be...

KATE: I'm okay. Anyway, I'm *not* headed towards another pillathon. - I'm very grateful. I never thought you'd come for me, but... I got cut a huge break and I believe... I don't know what I believe, but I have faith. I think maybe we're not alone in this.

ANGEL: Why?

KATE: Because I never invited you in.

A big thank you to everyone who helped me and contributed to an intelligent discussion.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Friday, May 19, 2006 4:06 PM

It is one of my favourite quotes too. It's sort of an athiest ethic. It implies that there is no grand reward (e.g. heaven or hell). It says that we should do good deeds because they are right and will make the world better and not because we will be rewarded later. We should not do something evil in order to achieve a bigger goal, no matter how noble that goal is. The ends never justify the means. Angel seems to have forgotten this in season 5 when he takes a bite out of a good guy in order to get to the big villians.

Unfortunately it's not a philosophy shared by Al Quaeda, or the people who created Guantanamo Bay.

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Friday, May 19, 2006 5:51 PM

Quote:
Angel seems to have forgotten this in season 5 when he takes a bite out of a good guy in order to get to the big villians.

I don't think Angel forgot his epiphany or that his actions were inconsistent with it. Perhaps his epiphany did not include the conclusion that "the ends never justify the means." Or perhaps the adage did not apply to the situation perfectly--after all, it could be said that Angel's friend was already a dead man. It wasn't as if he planned to kill the guy all along in order to succeed. He explains that if he hadn't killed him, they would both be dead. Moreover, I don't think Angel felt justified in killing him. He did what he had to do to survive in that situation.

That aside, I too was profoundly touched by the episode Epiphany. As far as how that quote reflects existentialism, I thought this comment summarized it pretty well.

Quote:
Common Threads [of different schools of Existentialism]
Since there is no predefined human nature (or even if there were, that human nature would be infinite), nor any ultimate evaluation of life beyond that which humans project onto the world, individuals may only be judged or defined by their actions and choices.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

Joss Whedon is well known for existentialist musings, so it isn't surprising to find them in Angel. Whether you agree or not with the author's political interpretations, here is fairly in-depth analysis on the existentialism of Serenity.

http://www.reason.com/hod/js093005.shtml

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Declan:
Dear Grounded:

Yes, this is the exact quote!

Yup. I did remember it, but I also did some Googling to make sure I didn't slip up ;) Typing in Angel Transcripts and then searching the episode text (in this case I searched for 'matters') tends to work fairly well.

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I take it as a bit of a paraphrasing of a quote variously attributed to Confucius, Ghandi, and even Oscar Wilde:

"Nothing that you do is very important, but it is very important that you do it."

You know, I'm still struggling with where I heard or read a variant of this or the Angel quote. At the time I said to myself, "Gorram thief, [Confucius, Ghandi, Wilde, _______] stole that line from Angel [and Joss Whedon]!"

I'm leaning toward an Ancient philospher saying something similar. Tom Wolfe in A MAN IN FULL got me interested in Epictetus and later Seneca. Epictetus is fascinating and easy to read in short bits. These Stoic's are nothing like what you learned about them in high school or very much like what the word "stoic" has come to mean in English.

Or, I may have heard the saying on the History Channel, of which I watch way too much.

If anyone has a reference to a similar quote by an actual person, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I take it as a bit of a paraphrasing of a quote variously attributed to Confucius, Ghandi, and even Oscar Wilde:

"Nothing that you do is very important, but it is very important that you do it."

You know, I'm still struggling with where I heard or read a variant of this or the Angel quote. At the time I said to myself, "Gorram thief, [Confucius, Ghandi, Wilde, _______] stole that line from Angel [and Joss Whedon]!"

I'm leaning toward an Ancient philospher saying something similar. Tom Wolfe in A MAN IN FULL got me interested in Epictetus and later Seneca. Epictetus is fascinating and easy to read in short bits. These Stoic's are nothing like what you learned about them in high school or very much like what the word "stoic" has come to mean in English.

Or, I may have heard the saying on the History Channel, of which I watch way too much.

If anyone has a reference to a similar quote by an actual person, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:07 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Here it is attributed to Mahatma Gandhi:

"What you do is of little significance, but it is very important that you do it."
- Mahatma Gandhi

That comes from this site:

http://www.democracy.ru/english/quotes.php

Now I'm not too sure how accurate a Russian website on democracy quotes in English is, but there's one source...

And here it is again, likewise attributed to Gandhi:

http://www.hdis.hc.edu.tw/html/famous_words.html

So it's starting to look most likely that it is indeed a quote from Gandhi...

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 5:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
[So it's starting to look most likely that it is indeed a quote from Gandhi...

I Googled and yes, it does appear, that this particular quote is from Gandhi. However, not to disrespect Gandhi, I still think there was an earlier expression of this idea. I just can't find it. Is there a philospher in the house?

I'm mainly a Firefly fan and am pretty close to knowing the series dialog verbatim. Due to sheer volume of Angel and Buffy, I've only made my way through that universe one complete time with a couple of exceptions ("Once More with Feeling", "Smile Time", and "The Girl in Question"). I do plan another time... and this time in the correct order.

I did watch "Epiphany" again last night and was surprised that I had forgotten how dark and intense some of the Angel episodes were.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 5:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
[So it's starting to look most likely that it is indeed a quote from Gandhi...

I Googled and yes, it does appear, that this particular quote is from Gandhi. However, not to disrespect Gandhi, I still think there was an earlier expression of this idea. I just can't find it. Is there a philospher in the house?

I'm mainly a Firefly fan and am pretty close to knowing the series dialog verbatim. Due to sheer volume of Angel and Buffy, I've only made my way through that universe one complete time with a couple of exceptions ("Once More with Feeling", "Smile Time", and "The Girl in Question"). I do plan another time... and this time in the correct order.

I did watch "Epiphany" again last night and was surprised that I had forgotten how dark and intense some of the Angel episodes were.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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