spike by est120

ANGELUS ARCANUM

spike

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Monday, November 1, 2004 07:02
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6431
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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:33 PM

okay, not sure if i just missed something, but in the angel finale, spike and angel are discussing who will become human based on the shanshu prophecy and angel says "we're not going to make it through", implying that he expects them all to die fighting the senior partners after taking out the black thorn. my question is, earlier in the episode, angel signs away his chance to become human to finally prove his loyalty to the black thorn. does this make spike the vampire with a soul who becomes human as reward for his role in the apocalypse?

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:54 PM

JEWEL

That's the way I read it. Angel knows he can't have the reward anymore, but that doesn't mean he's going to tell Spike that. I think Angel really figured that none of them were going to make it out alive and he wanted to go out fighing the good fight. Spike seemed ok with that, too.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:28 PM

DIETCOKE

If anyone lives through the battle it will be Spike and he will be the one in the prophecy is how I took it.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:39 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by est120:
does this make spike the vampire with a soul who becomes human as reward for his role in the apocalypse?

Well on the phone on Sunday Joss said that Spike shanshues...
of course he may have been kidding...

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:17 AM

GROUNDED

More than one option is possible. For instance, Angel may well be the vampire referenced in the prophecy in which case the prophecy becomes null and void once Angel has signed it. Thus it may be that Spike can become human or it may be that neither ever will.

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:03 AM

JEWEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
More than one option is possible. For instance, Angel may well be the vampire referenced in the prophecy in which case the prophecy becomes null and void once Angel has signed it. Thus it may be that Spike can become human or it may be that neither ever will.

That's a good point. I hadn't really thought of it from that angle before. But I have wondered about the specifics of the prophecy itself. Is it possible that the gang had it wrong the whole time? That perhaps it had nothing to do with becoming human? What I mean is Spike, at the end of BtVS dies and yet he lives again in Angel. Could that have been the prophecy all along?

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:06 AM

IDEFIX

I think there's four possibilities.

1. it was Angel, who was meant to shanshu and he signed it off so no one's gonna.

2. it was Spike who was meant to shanshu. so if he makes it and the end of AtS was the right apocalypse he's gonna shanshu. if he's destroyed nothing will happen and if he makes it and that was not the right apocalypse it might come on in "Spike the Series" or "Spike the TV Movie" or Spike the Movie" sometime in 2012 or so. whatever.

3. it was another vampire with a soul, one that we don't know of or that doesn't even exist yet.

4. it was a vague prophecy about any vampire with a soul with a big part in any apocalypse. since Angel signed it off he won't get it. but it might be that Spike get's it for the end of AtS, or not. being vague here... Spike couls have gotten if for the end of BtVS if it was that vague but he hasn't, he's still a vampire. but then again given the problems they had diciding what exactly "shanshu" meant in the first place maybe it was Spike and the end of BtVS, he was destroyed and was brought back. not exactly living and human - but who knows?

Idefix

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:56 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I think there's four possibilities.
2. it was Spike who was meant to shanshu. so if he makes it and the end of AtS was the right apocalypse he's gonna shanshu. if he's destroyed nothing will happen and if he makes it and that was not the right apocalypse it might come on in "Spike the Series" or "Spike the TV Movie" or Spike the Movie" sometime in 2012 or so. whatever.

When James is 50+... ;)

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:09 AM

IDEFIX

I've heard he's 44 or something like that now, so, why not? he seems to be immune to age.

makes the EP "Tabula Rasa" a really weird story, though. they tried to make us believe that Spike was young enough to be thought of as Giles son, if memory was removed.
since Tony Head is 50 now, this seems ludicrous. them being 6 years or so apart. and even if the 44 are not true, JM doesn't really tell, he's older than 40. and less than 10 years age difference don't make for a good father-son relationship.
I'd be majorly offended if I were Tony Head. *big grin*

I even read somewhere (don't remember where) that some people thought Spike was supposed to be 23 or so. I thought they aimed somewhere towards 30-35. but the flashbacks on Angel do show us a pretty young acting version of Spike. and then again he never really grew up in all of his 120 something years.

I think JM looks now (apart from the hair) pretty much like the first day he was on Buffy in early S2, maybe he can play Spike ten years from now. as long as they don't try to have Angel in the movie, it will probably work out all right.

Idefix

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:41 AM

GROUNDED

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0551346/

James' birthday is 20th August 1962. Thus he is currently 42.

It's much easier to disguise ages in the 20-30 bracket - I mean all the Buffy 'kids' weren't really 'kids' at the time. CC and NB are like 10 years older than their characters are supposed to be but they got away with it at the time because they slotted into the 20-30 bracket. DB was beginning to show his age a little at the end of Angel but that's because he actually started playing Angel at approximately the right age - the only problem being that the character isn't supposed to age!

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:42 PM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Another possibility: The Circle of the Black Thorn may not have the power to really change the prophecy, and the whole thing was a bluff to see how Angel would react. They weren't exactly trustworthy, were they? Angel may or may not have known if they had the means to change written prophecy, but his selfless actions were what mattered in the end.

So far in Angel, there hasn't been any clear evidence that the destiny foretold in these prophecies can be changed. Plus, they are vague enough to have many interpretations. ("The father will kill the son" was an example of a false prophecy, so it doesn't really count. Of course, it did eventually come true, from a certain point of view...)

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:04 AM

IDEFIX

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0551346/

James' birthday is 20th August 1962. Thus he is currently 42.

nothing against IMDB it's a great source of information, but it's not guaranteed to be true. JM does give his birthday as 08/20 every time he's asked so that's true but the year seems to vary on when he's asked and what mood he's in or whatever. so 62 could be right or not but it really doesn't matter. he's much older than he looks that's true nonetheless.

and the kids not really being kids is almost always true. I thought CC never got away with the age she played, she always looked older to me than thshe should have. NB I could buy he looked very boyish in S1 and 2 of Buffy, could have been 17/18 then like his character was supposed to be.
SMG isn't too much older than Buffy so that worked very well. and AH worked for me too, she's older than Willow but she looks rather young. ED is very young so there' no problem there. did I forget someone?
the biggest problem apart from Cordy always was Angel: DB was about 26 when it all started and he looked like 26 and he was supposed to be 26 and it was perfect. sadly vampires don't age and so Angel should still look like 26 and DB most definitely does not. I kinda don't want to imaging a movie with Angel filmed in 10 years, it would look pretty ridiculous. like Data in the Next Generation movies.

but then again who's complaining? if we can get a movie, I'd gladly take it even if the vampire who should look like 26 really is 45 and looks exactly like 45.

if someone has the 'eternaly young' face like JM seems to mostly shows when he's 30 or 35 and still looks like 20 or 25 so if you cast a 25 year old vampire you can either look for someone who already is older than he looks and hope it will last or you take someone who's the right age now and you don't know how he's gonna look 10 years from now. most people change between 25 and 35 and they're gonna keep on changing.

but that's gone pretty off topic.

what were we talking about? Spike and the Shanshu, right? I think he's already got it after the end of BtVS. they misinterpreted the prophecy. they almost always do somehow or other. that's what prophecies are about. you mostly only know what they mean when they've come true and sometimes not even then.

Idefix

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 4:52 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Well, more off-topic age stuff: I always marvel when I watch the first 2 seasons of Buffy at how young David Boreanaz looks. But then you think back that Buffy started in 1997, it's almost 10 years (okay 7) since DB was first on. And then I get distracted when I watch Season 5 Angel because I'm constantly looking at his middle-aged paunch that's developing around his middle

When I read that James Marsters was going to be playing the father of the one of the teen characters on The Mountain, I thought to myself that James was too young for it. But obviously he's not. He still looks good. I think it's the amazing cheekbones! LOL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Friday, October 29, 2004 1:58 AM

IDEFIX

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Well, more off-topic age stuff: I always marvel when I watch the first 2 seasons of Buffy at how young David Boreanaz looks. But then you think back that Buffy started in 1997, it's almost 10 years (okay 7) since DB was first on. And then I get distracted when I watch Season 5 Angel because I'm constantly looking at his middle-aged paunch that's developing around his middle

yeah, he looked really young and good and he perfectly fit the description of the demon with the face of an angel.
nowadays I think he looks about normal. he's changed a lot. his face changed, got rounder and overall different.
S5 AtS I wouln't even call Angel good looking anymore. it's personal taste of course and not really a big thing. his acting improved though.

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
When I read that James Marsters was going to be playing the father of the one of the teen characters on The Mountain, I thought to myself that James was too young for it. But obviously he's not. He still looks good. I think it's the amazing cheekbones! LOL

I think very thin people are ofthe hard to place agewise. but they seldom look particularly young. JM just keeps looking almost the same and you could easily have him play a 25-30 year old I think. so he's the perfect actor for a vampire lookswise. but he's perfect for Spike anyways.
just saw the S1 Ats EP where Spike tries to get the Gem of Amara (sp?) back, when he comes to fight Angel and get's taunted: "I got a really good plan but then I got bored" so cute and so 'Spike'. I loved him from his first EP on BtVS, so I really hope for some kind of Spike continuation, bad enough Wes got killed dead (as opposed to the mystical deaths of slayers and vampires that don't really mean dead but simply wainting to be resurrected in one way or another...).

how about a Spike shanshu story with Willow, Giles, Faith, Illyria and some new people?

Idefix

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Friday, October 29, 2004 3:21 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
how about a Spike shanshu story with Willow, Giles, Faith, Illyria and some new people?

I hope Joss realizes that most fans would be perfectly happy watching a movie/spin-off/whathaveyou of the rest of the Buffyverse/Angelverse characters. Giles and Spike together, fighting evil while trading barbs? Awesome! Faith and Willow together, fighting evil while trying not to become evil again? Hi-larious! Illyria and Andrew, her babbling while Andrew cowers somewhere during a fight? Perfect! There are other characters I'd like to see explored, without the need for either SMG or DB.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Friday, October 29, 2004 12:47 PM

GROUNDED

Spike, yes. Illyria, yes. Giles, maybe. Faith, hmm. Willow, nooooooooooo!

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Friday, October 29, 2004 7:18 PM

ANKHAGOGO

Quote:
Well on the phone on Sunday Joss said that Spike shanshues...
of course he may have been kidding...

Okay, if you don't know about the phone thing, this just sounds like Joss rang you up to chat.

:)

Audie Murphy could have had Sylvester Stallone for breakfast.

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Friday, October 29, 2004 10:37 PM

EMBERS

well of course I thought that everyone knew about Joss' conference call last Sunday, there have been threads and stuff at all the websites about his work, including here...
so, no, I didn't mean to say that he told me *personally* LOL

and of course I happen to love the idea of Spike shanshuing since James Marsters was getting worried that he was starting to look too old to play Spike (he said that at a couple of conventions), the Shanshu would mean that that would no longer matter....

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Saturday, October 30, 2004 11:08 AM

GROUNDED

It's almost too convenient ;)

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Monday, November 1, 2004 4:26 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
...and of course I happen to love the idea of Spike shanshuing since James Marsters was getting worried that he was starting to look too old to play Spike (he said that at a couple of conventions), the Shanshu would mean that that would no longer matter....

I think that would have been cool, because -- and all due respect to the first vampire with a soul -- Spike was the better warrior, and he did sacrifice his life the first time around. However, if he did Shanshu, did it happen in the middle of the fight? That would have meant he would have become human in the middle of the final battle, which would have tipped the scales to the bad guys.

I like to think everyone lived in that final battle. It's just too depressing to think otherwise.

ETA: The reason I replied, LOL. Let's hope that some day, in our wildest dreams, that Joss did have Spike Shanshu so we can see James again. Please, please, please!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Monday, November 1, 2004 4:47 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

The problem with prophecies is they're a crock. Some guys thousands of years ago said it, but how many times have they reversed time on Angel/Buffy? Or wiped over it? The timestream is nothing like what it was when they made those prophecies. Cordelia made prophecies on a daily basis and Angel thwarted them.

I see the shanshu prophecy as belonging to Angel, W&H believed it, the oracles said it, the black thorn said it, Angel was drawn to it... However, it doesn't mean it can't be changed or erased. They seem to have a problem of coming true when you least expect them too.

Maybe Angel said it best in Season 1: "Don't believe everything you're foretold"

check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly

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Monday, November 1, 2004 5:30 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
However, if he did Shanshu, did it happen in the middle of the fight? That would have meant he would have become human in the middle of the final battle, which would have tipped the scales to the bad guys.

given the size of the demon in the very back of the demon horde (of who knows how many), i think spike becoming human in the middle of the fight would not really affect angel's side all that much since they were basically doomed anyway. sorry.

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Monday, November 1, 2004 7:02 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

I think that would have been cool, because -- and all due respect to the first vampire with a soul -- Spike was the better warrior, and he did sacrifice his life the first time around.

Oh dear...

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