ANGELUS ARCANUM

What if Jasmine had been Allowed to Reign over Humanity?

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Monday, May 21, 2007 18:02
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4581
PAGE 1 of 1

Monday, April 16, 2007 5:20 PM

RIVER6213


I was watching the episodes where Jasmine was trying to take over the Earth. Everyone who saw her was happy and wanted to worship her. Everyone who was in her presences felt happy and loved, and wanted to love their neighbor because that was what jasmine wanted.

The point is that everyone was happy, and sure it was a spell that was making everyone feel this way, but you have to weigh the price of this happiness. Jasmine consumed how many humans a day? 12, 15? And how many people would benefit the sacrifice of these people? Millions...billions? Even the people that were selected to be Jasmine's food was happy about it right down to the very last second when she was wearing her lobster bib and was about to consume them. These people were happy about it; they did not die terrified and fearful, they died happy.

I got to thinking about that and decided that the planet Earth would have been better off with Jasmine here than not here at all. She could have benefited human kind in a great many ways. All the war, death, disease, and poverty could have been but a memory for humanity with her active and alive on Earth. I think it was a big mistake for Angel and company to kill her off. I mean look at it this way. The people at WolfRAM & Hart was relived when Angel's group took Jasmine down. That in itself says a lot.

What do you think?

-River







NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2007 5:55 PM

THEREALME


But the price of this happiness and love was one's free will. Nobody had a choice; they HAD to be happy.

If someone else so totally controls your life, are you alive at all, or just a toy, a puppet?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2007 6:03 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by TheRealMe:
But the price of this happiness and love was one's free will. Nobody had a choice; they HAD to be happy.

If someone else so totally controls your life, are you alive at all, or just a toy, a puppet?



Good point but for a planet of 6.6 billion people the point would be the quality of their lives and a possible future for their children in a world of peace. I'm certain that the majority would trade off their personal choice for this.

Don't get me wrong. I've thought of this and I've thought of the nature of human beings and their strive for freedom, but at what cost? More than half the planet starves and is in poverty. Wars and limited wars and possible genocidal activities exists all around on this big blue marble we call Earth. Our freedom of choice has its flaws at least at this particular point in time. Maybe someday it will change but right now a lot of people are born, they live, and they die in poverty and totally screwed up lives. More than you can imagine. Jasmine's presences would have eliminated all of that. Just a thought.

-River

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2007 6:28 PM

THEREALME


Oh, sure. It was the classic devil's bargain. You get what you want, peace and happiness, in exchange for your soul!

I was very impressed with the sequence.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2007 6:51 PM

RIVER6213


I guess the devil's bargain part comes in the form of a few giving up their lives for the many, and they give their lives happily, which in the long run works for humanity. Humanity would be happy with Jasmine until they aren't anymore, which would take a while until humanity learns to be more humane.

Go figure.

-River

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:28 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


I thought there was an interesting contrast between Angel's battle with Jasmine to allow the world to retain its free will and his choice to erase Conner's memories. He effectively removed Conner's chance for redemption, which is strange considering what Angel has gone through in atonement for his actions. He allowed Conner to enter a state of blissful ignorance (similar to what Jasmine would have offered the world) in order to remove his suffering (like Jasmine would have offered the world).
I understand why Angel did what he did, but it was hypocritical. If it hadn't been for Vale, Conner would never have had the chance to make up for killing that girl in 'Inside Out'. And thanks to the network, we won't find out if he could!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:47 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I think that ultimately, even if Jasmine were to create some kind of world peace, her plan would fail. Not because of humanity, necessarily, but do to her own flawed character. Jasmine was so arrogant, so overconfident, that she was bound to slip up somewhere. Had she not had those particular flaws, Angel would not have been able to defeat her in the first place.

Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
I thought there was an interesting contrast between Angel's battle with Jasmine to allow the world to retain its free will and his choice to erase Conner's memories. He effectively removed Conner's chance for redemption, which is strange considering what Angel has gone through in atonement for his actions. He allowed Conner to enter a state of blissful ignorance (similar to what Jasmine would have offered the world) in order to remove his suffering (like Jasmine would have offered the world).
I understand why Angel did what he did, but it was hypocritical. If it hadn't been for Vale, Conner would never have had the chance to make up for killing that girl in 'Inside Out'. And thanks to the network, we won't find out if he could!



I understand your point here, but I think you have to look at this situation from a parent's perspective. You want the best for your child, and you want to shield them from all of the bad things, even if those are things they need to experience. Angel wasn't thinking like a hero, he was thinking like a father who loves his son.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:30 AM

THEREALME


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I guess the devil's bargain part comes in the form of a few giving up their lives for the many, and they give their lives happily, which in the long run works for humanity. Humanity would be happy with Jasmine until they aren't anymore, which would take a while until humanity learns to be more humane.

Go figure.

-River



No, in my view EVERYONE under Jasmine's peace would be giving up their souls, their ability to decide, their free will.

Jasmine's peace was the joy in drugs. You weren't REALLY happy; you were just made to feel that way.

I never considered Angel' actions regarding Connor as a parallel to Jasmine, but they are! Yes, Angel wrongly took away Connor's ability to repent by erasing his memory of what horrid things he did. While done for understandable reasons, he was as wrong as Jasmine.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:54 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I guess the devil's bargain part comes in the form of a few giving up their lives for the many, and they give their lives happily, which in the long run works for humanity. Humanity would be happy with Jasmine until they aren't anymore, which would take a while until humanity learns to be more humane.

Go figure.

-River



No, in my view EVERYONE under Jasmine's peace would be giving up their souls, their ability to decide, their free will.

Jasmine's peace was the joy in drugs. You weren't REALLY happy; you were just made to feel that way.

I never considered Angel' actions regarding Connor as a parallel to Jasmine, but they are! Yes, Angel wrongly took away Connor's ability to repent by erasing his memory of what horrid things he did. While done for understandable reasons, he was as wrong as Jasmine.




Very true indeed, but they wouldn't know that they have no free will, which is the whole point of having a spell put on you, therefore you would be happy about everything and be completely oblivious to the fact that your free will was gone. I guess what I'm saying is what you don't know sometimes won't hurt you, or ignorance is bliss.

For myself I think I would do very well in the Jasmine universe just as long as I was on one side of the planet and she was on the other side. (So I wouldn't be eaten by her)

-River

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:26 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


If this were to really happen I believe that I would probably be in Connor's shoes. Not the crazy-wanna-kill-the-people-who-love-me-or-don't-agree-with-my-point-of-view shoes, but the absence of hope and clinging to the closest things that bring me actual joy, no matter what the cost (in my real-life case it's the Jossverse, and what it tends to hurt is my bank account ).

Seriously though I wouldn't EVER want to give up the right to choose. It would be like what the Alliance did to River, but worse, because it'd be done to billions. To lose the choice of what happens to both your mind and your body? It's unthinkable to me. And it's not genuine happiness, either.

"In Joss We Trust."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:24 AM

RIVER6213


True but you wouldn't know that because you would be under the brain-washing spell of Jasmine. River KNEW she had been screwed with, but you wouldn't have that luxury, so you'll be a happy little minion until Jasmine gets around to putting you on the menu. Just pray she isn't wearing a lobster bib when your turn comes...

-River

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:40 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Which makes her the scariest villain ever in the Jossverse...in my opinion.

"In Joss We Trust."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 6:14 AM

EVILDINOSAUR


That's why I loved that season, cuz at the end you're not sure who won, the good guys or the bad guys. I mean Jasmine offered world peace, the only price was a little free will. Is that price too high? or is it reasonable for what she was offering?

What I always like to think about is that if Jasmine had been allowed to spread and hadn't been stopped, what would have happened between her and the first evil. Because remember thats the same time season 7 of buffy was happening.

It would have been an interesting showdown between Jasmine and the First, because world peace doesn't really fall into the first's plan.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:25 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


I don't know if the following example illuminates or confuses the issue, but...

Domesticated animals raised under humane conditions live pretty good lives, with lots of food, little disease, a little bit of leisure time (if they are free-range/pasture-fed/etc.) and no predators except us... and the end is as free of pain and fear as we can make it. On the other hand, they can't do anything to change their or their offspring's eventual fate. They basically live and die for the sake of another species (us).

Wild animals have to look for their own food, deal with constant change in their environment (including the encroachments of expanding human settlement and other living things also wanting to use the same environment), fight for status amongst their own kind (if they are social animals), and deal with predators and disease on their own. On the other hand, the actions they take can make a difference to their own and their offspring's survival. They live and die for their own sake, even if they inevitably end up as some other species' dinner.

Which would most of us prefer? Is there any point to living life for the sake of another?

Just my two cents,

Indigo S.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 11:55 AM

ODDNESS2HER


River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:31 PM

JWHEDONADDICT


Thank you for reminding me of that quote. I'm gonna borrow it and add it to my signature.

"In Joss We Trust."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:36 PM

ZEEK


Yeah I'm going to have to say that without freewill life is pointless. There's no reason to exist if we are just consuming resources to eventually die.

Currently we can contribute to society and hopefully make the world a better place for the next generation and they will do the same and so on.

If Jasmine won then the human race would cease any progress. I think the best thing to do is look at the creatures she left. Their world looked pretty bad and they seemed to be like addicts going through withdrawal. So, apparently she failed there and left their world a wasteland and their people empty shells. It's possible that she doesn't possess the concentration to control a whole world of beings and still have them make their own food and distribute it and fight disease and all the other things that society does to keep us alive. The people might end up like Miranda and just stand there and die. Then when the world begins to collapse from her lack of attention she moves on to the next world. Just a theory though.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:45 PM

ODDNESS2HER


Quote:

Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Thank you for reminding me of that quote. I'm gonna borrow it and add it to my signature.

"In Joss We Trust."





You're welcome! It is a particularly insightful point and worth remembering.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:56 PM

JWHEDONADDICT


Very true!

One that has stuck with me is "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." The quote I use the most to pull me out of my 'funks'.

I used to have it taped to a mirror and I would always be asked what it meant. I took it down because I got tired of explaining it so much...I mean, isn't it obvious?! I know it by heart now anyway!

"Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."--Angel
"In Joss We Trust."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:03 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


It's an argument that's older than you think, River. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

For many, The Garden of Eden is the story of the evolution of human consciousness. When Adam and Eve were in the garden they existed in a state of blissful ignorance. They had everything they needed and wanted for nothing, but they were not aware of themselves.

When they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, they "saw that they were naked." They achieved conscious awareness for the first time. Hence they were expelled from the garden. Once they had become consciously aware, they could never be ignorant again. Instead of being blissfully happy, they became aware of hurt, suffering, need and everything else that comes with the human package.

That's the price we pay for human awareness - the loss of paradise, of ignorant joy. Is it a bad thing? I have to say no. If we were all still in the "garden" then sure, we'd be happy, but we wouldn't be what we are. We wouldn't really be human at all.




Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:19 PM

ODDNESS2HER


Quote:

Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Very true!

One that has stuck with me is "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." The quote I use the most to pull me out of my 'funks'.

I used to have it taped to a mirror and I would always be asked what it meant. I took it down because I got tired of explaining it so much...I mean, isn't it obvious?! I know it by heart now anyway!

"Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."--Angel
"In Joss We Trust."




I also like Joss' quote: "Remember, always be yourself. Unless you suck." I have that one displayed in my office.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:44 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".




*Sigh*

Okay, here we go...

I don't think that Jasmine for myself in any way represents any sort of "parental" figure that I can think of. This may be what it means for you and that's okay, but I don't see it that way if that's alright with you?

And as far as I'm concerned our so-called free will has been nothing but a complete pain in the ass and has been the source of human history being written in blood. Sure when we aren't killing or making each other miserable we come up with nifty inventions, and occasionally develop certain new vaccines that prevents certain terrible diseases, but on the whole it seems that our default mode is making each other miserable. If we aren't taking something away from someone we are hoarding things that others need. If it isn't that its slavery, or war, or crime, or mean kids at the playground, or a husband that cheats on his wife or a child lying to his parents, or a President is lying to the people. This has gone on, and on, and will continue to go on because that is the nature of human kind; we grow by creating our own misery and then over come it just to create more misery and over come that...It goes on, and on, and on forever.

I would have no problem with a creature like Jasmine showing up and making humanity dizzy with happiness even if it eliminated the development of humanity. If humanity is eventually turned into sheep over a period of time due to Jasmine's spell, well, Song long humanity and thanks for all the fish is what I have to say about it, but the fact is I won't because I would be under the spell of Jasmine also, so no such thought would enter my mind.

Personally, I can't think of a better end for humanity. I guess it beats going out in a nuclear war.

-River


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:48 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
It's an argument that's older than you think, River. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

For many, The Garden of Eden is the story of the evolution of human consciousness. When Adam and Eve were in the garden they existed in a state of blissful ignorance. They had everything they needed and wanted for nothing, but they were not aware of themselves.

When they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, they "saw that they were naked." They achieved conscious awareness for the first time. Hence they were expelled from the garden. Once they had become consciously aware, they could never be ignorant again. Instead of being blissfully happy, they became aware of hurt, suffering, need and everything else that comes with the human package.

That's the price we pay for human awareness - the loss of paradise, of ignorant joy. Is it a bad thing? I have to say no. If we were all still in the "garden" then sure, we'd be happy, but we wouldn't be what we are. We wouldn't really be human at all.




Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com



I wouldn't really call the current humanity "Human beings" because that is not what we are. I really don't know what we are but human beings is the wrong word for us.

I'll take the ignorant joy for $2,000 Bob Barker!


-River

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:56 PM

ODDNESS2HER


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".



When I referred to Jasmine as "parental", I meant that she was offering to take care of us and make all of the decisions while we went out and played in the yard (so to speak). If it means something different to you, fine.

Meanwhile, your assertion that you want a Jasmine to take over is kind of ironic, since you're saying that you would choose to have no choices whatsoever.





*Sigh*

Okay, here we go...

I don't think that Jasmine for myself in any way represents any sort of "parental" figure that I can think of. This may be what it means for you and that's okay, but I don't see it that way if that's alright with you?

And as far as I'm concerned our so-called free will has been nothing but a complete pain in the ass and has been the source of human history being written in blood. Sure when we aren't killing or making each other miserable we come up with nifty inventions, and occasionally develop certain new vaccines that prevents certain terrible diseases, but on the whole it seems that our default mode is making each other miserable. If we aren't taking something away from someone we are hoarding things that others need. If it isn't that its slavery, or war, or crime, or mean kids at the playground, or a husband that cheats on his wife or a child lying to his parents, or a President is lying to the people. This has gone on, and on, and will continue to go on because that is the nature of human kind; we grow by creating our own misery and then over come it just to create more misery and over come that...It goes on, and on, and on forever.

I would have no problem with a creature like Jasmine showing up and making humanity dizzy with happiness even if it eliminated the development of humanity. If humanity is eventually turned into sheep over a period of time due to Jasmine's spell, well, Song long humanity and thanks for all the fish is what I have to say about it, but the fact is I won't because I would be under the spell of Jasmine also, so no such thought would enter my mind.

Personally, I can't think of a better end for humanity. I guess it beats going out in a nuclear war.

-River



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:07 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".



When I referred to Jasmine as "parental", I meant that she was offering to take care of us and make all of the decisions while we went out and played in the yard (so to speak). If it means something different to you, fine.

Meanwhile, your assertion that you want a Jasmine to take over is kind of ironic, since you're saying that you would choose to have no choices whatsoever.




I wouldn't mind if some crazed creature showed up and brain-washed the hell out of humanity. I choose to not give a damn about the whole show, and would become a dizzingly happy little mindless minion until I end up being turned into "The River McNugget meal"

Hail Jasmine!

-River










NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:15 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
That's why I loved that season, cuz at the end you're not sure who won, the good guys or the bad guys. I mean Jasmine offered world peace, the only price was a little free will. Is that price too high? or is it reasonable for what she was offering?

What I always like to think about is that if Jasmine had been allowed to spread and hadn't been stopped, what would have happened between her and the first evil. Because remember thats the same time season 7 of buffy was happening.

It would have been an interesting showdown between Jasmine and the First, because world peace doesn't really fall into the first's plan.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."



This I nevered considered.

-River

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 19, 2007 11:14 PM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


In asking what human free will does other than cause suffering, I would turn to another passion of mine - mountaineering history.
Some people would say dying whilst mountaineering is a singularly pointless death. One is basically putting oneself in a life or death situation with no tangible reward. George Mallory and Andrew Irvine, in 1924, set off from 26,000 feet to attempt to be the first men to summit Everest. They were lost in the clouds and nobody knows if they were successful or not. To me, this says everything about free will. They chose to set off that day of their own free will, to test themselves against unthinkable challenges (they were wearing tweed!) and to achieve nothing that would directly benefit anyone. Can you imagine Jasmine 'sanctioning' such a thing?
Mallory, upon questioned by a reporter why he was trying to climb Everest, famously replyed "Because it's there." However, one of his less well known, but far more eloquent, replies went "For the stone from the top for the geologists, for the knowledge of the human endurance for the doctors, but above all, for the spirit of adventure to keep alive the very soul of man".

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 20, 2007 9:33 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
In asking what human free will does other than cause suffering, I would turn to another passion of mine - mountaineering history.
Some people would say dying whilst mountaineering is a singularly pointless death. One is basically putting oneself in a life or death situation with no tangible reward. George Mallory and Andrew Irvine, in 1924, set off from 26,000 feet to attempt to be the first men to summit Everest. They were lost in the clouds and nobody knows if they were successful or not. To me, this says everything about free will. They chose to set off that day of their own free will, to test themselves against unthinkable challenges (they were wearing tweed!) and to achieve nothing that would directly benefit anyone. Can you imagine Jasmine 'sanctioning' such a thing?
Mallory, upon questioned by a reporter why he was trying to climb Everest, famously replyed "Because it's there." However, one of his less well known, but far more eloquent, replies went "For the stone from the top for the geologists, for the knowledge of the human endurance for the doctors, but above all, for the spirit of adventure to keep alive the very soul of man".



Beautifully put, but I can't really see the whole point, and maybe that is a good thing because from my point of view humanity uses its free will to do damage. I'm not saying all of humanity, but I am saying that enough humanity exercise their free will that affects millions of lives and cause untold suffering.

It's a real good thing that we live on a planet where everyone has differing opinions, experiences, and points of view. There is no right or wrong to my thread that I started; everyone's opinion and thoughts on the subject are valid.

Still, I would rather give up my free will and not have a choice. It's like the JudeoChristian religion where they believe that God wanted to have a creation that chose to worship him rather than them being like his angels and other creations that were "hard-wired" to worship him. These creations of his have no choice but to worship him. They would shrivel up and die if they tried not too.

I rather be like that, stuck with the knowledge as surely as the sun rises in the morning that Jasmine, or a Jasmine like enity was my whole purpose for living. It would make life easier and simplier for me if that were the case; I would have no worries and so what if I would end up as brainless as a marine plant (some say this has already happened) I would be happy right up to the day I died. I would never be able to think beyond the parameters of the spell that was put on me. I would not be aware that I was hard-wired or brain washed; I would be a happy little minion wondering how I could please Jasmine, or a Jasmine-like enity. That would be my whole point of living.

Putting it even more simply, I rather not do my own thinking for me anymore; I'm bored with the whole affair of free will.

-River



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 20, 2007 11:17 AM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Putting it even more simply, I rather not do my own thinking for me anymore; I'm bored with the whole affair of free will.



I know of a few cults that have openings...

It may be that some people would prefer blissful mind-controlled ignorance, but most would not...and Jasmine didn't exactly give people a choice, did she?

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 20, 2007 11:44 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Putting it even more simply, I rather not do my own thinking for me anymore; I'm bored with the whole affair of free will.



I know of a few cults that have openings...

It may be that some people would prefer blissful mind-controlled ignorance, but most would not...and Jasmine didn't exactly give people a choice, did she?

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!



Too bad I missed the whole Jim Jones thing. I wonder what flavor of Kool-Aid they served on that fateful day? I hope it was Goofy Grape.

-River

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:10 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
It's an argument that's older than you think, River. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

For many, The Garden of Eden is the story of the evolution of human consciousness. When Adam and Eve were in the garden they existed in a state of blissful ignorance. They had everything they needed and wanted for nothing, but they were not aware of themselves.

When they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, they "saw that they were naked." They achieved conscious awareness for the first time. Hence they were expelled from the garden. Once they had become consciously aware, they could never be ignorant again. Instead of being blissfully happy, they became aware of hurt, suffering, need and everything else that comes with the human package.

That's the price we pay for human awareness - the loss of paradise, of ignorant joy. Is it a bad thing? I have to say no. If we were all still in the "garden" then sure, we'd be happy, but we wouldn't be what we are. We wouldn't really be human at all.




I wouldn't really call the current humanity "Human beings" because that is not what we are. I really don't know what we are but human beings is the wrong word for us.

I'll take the ignorant joy for $2,000 Bob Barker!




Nope, Humanity is still the right terms for us. We're the one species on earth that has the ability to redefine who and what we are. Okay, we suck at it, but we still have the ability to get better at it.

And that's pretty much what it comes down to - you can stumble around in a euphoric haze, numb to the world around you, or you can take a chance and live life - pain, fear, suffering, grief and all, on the chance that you can become something more too, that it might just be worth it.




Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:19 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
It's an argument that's older than you think, River. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

For many, The Garden of Eden is the story of the evolution of human consciousness. When Adam and Eve were in the garden they existed in a state of blissful ignorance. They had everything they needed and wanted for nothing, but they were not aware of themselves.

When they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, they "saw that they were naked." They achieved conscious awareness for the first time. Hence they were expelled from the garden. Once they had become consciously aware, they could never be ignorant again. Instead of being blissfully happy, they became aware of hurt, suffering, need and everything else that comes with the human package.

That's the price we pay for human awareness - the loss of paradise, of ignorant joy. Is it a bad thing? I have to say no. If we were all still in the "garden" then sure, we'd be happy, but we wouldn't be what we are. We wouldn't really be human at all.




I wouldn't really call the current humanity "Human beings" because that is not what we are. I really don't know what we are but human beings is the wrong word for us.

I'll take the ignorant joy for $2,000 Bob Barker!




Nope, Humanity is still the right terms for us. We're the one species on earth that has the ability to redefine who and what we are. Okay, we suck at it, but we still have the ability to get better at it.

And that's pretty much what it comes down to - you can stumble around in a euphoric haze, numb to the world around you, or you can take a chance and live life - pain, fear, suffering, grief and all, on the chance that you can become something more too, that it might just be worth it.




Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com



Though you may be right about this, I really can't see it. I would rather stumble around in a euphoric haze, numb to the world around me.

Hail Jasmine!

-River

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:22 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Okay, let me put it another way.

As much as you long for the eternal bliss of unconscious being, would you impose that choice on others? On every human? Every person existing in the world and every child that will be born? Would you deny them the chance to grow and become more than they are, possibly even changing the human race itself, for a life of bliss?





Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:14 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Okay, let me put it another way.

As much as you long for the eternal bliss of unconscious being, would you impose that choice on others? On every human? Every person existing in the world and every child that will be born? Would you deny them the chance to grow and become more than they are, possibly even changing the human race itself, for a life of bliss?





Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com




Okay, let me think about that for a moment...'er, hmmm, yes I think I would; I think I would impose that choice on the rest of humanity only for my complete selfishness. A subdued, and pacified humanity would be so busy being blissful, mindless marine plants that they wouldn't get in the way of my eternal bliss. I would say that it would be a win win situation.

Totally selfish and unfair? Yes. Feeling bad because I imposed my will on humanity? Not a lick. Humanity has done quite a fine job of imposing itself on all of us at one point or another. It's only fair if I paid it back in kind; eternal bliss and a static society.

-River

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, May 21, 2007 6:02 PM

RIVER6213


Hell yes! I will say it again. Jasmine running the everything would have been a better deal for the human race. So sorry that we have to sacrifice our self will in the process, but it's not like we are using our self will for anything good. I mean look at the condition of planet earth and it's stupid people??!!!

I think we should reconsider...

-Rive

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
ANGEL : After Show Reactions - YouTube
Fri, July 26, 2019 21:29 - 9 posts
Happy Birthday Elizabeth Rohm
Sun, April 28, 2019 10:44 - 3 posts
David Boreanaz Lands in New Series Seal Team
Thu, July 6, 2017 00:04 - 2 posts
Angel's Coat?
Fri, February 3, 2017 04:40 - 22 posts
You are my sunshine....
Mon, June 24, 2013 10:52 - 10 posts
Andy Hallet has left the building...
Fri, June 14, 2013 11:34 - 7 posts
Connor's hair...I should have appreciated it more
Fri, June 14, 2013 01:34 - 9 posts
So, that's finally it for Angel on TNT ?
Tue, August 21, 2012 01:09 - 1 posts
David Boreanaz' ho Rachel Uchitel had starring role in 9/11 Coverup
Tue, May 29, 2012 21:41 - 4 posts
Angel: "Give me a stake!" Cordy: "What? It's 8 in the morning."
Fri, March 9, 2012 12:33 - 2 posts
Vincent Kartheiser on the big screen - In Time
Mon, September 12, 2011 12:10 - 1 posts
Summer Glau on Angel
Sun, August 21, 2011 03:40 - 15 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL