Funding more Firefly by FlyerFie

TALK STORY

Funding more Firefly

POSTED BY: FLYERFIE
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 14:40
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VIEWED: 5279
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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:09 PM

(Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere on the site. I did look, but couldn't find anything similar)
At the time of starting this thread, the poll question asked fans how much they would be willing to donate to have a Firefly series or movie made. Being a mathematician, I decided to use the results of the poll to get an estimate of how much could be raised, and half a million seems to be a reasonable lower estimate.
I have several questions for people with more knowledge of film/TV than I:
1) How much money would be needed to make:
- a film?
- a series?
- a single episode?
2) Could a separate poll be started elsewhere on this site that gives people the opportunity to say exactly how much they would be willing to donate for a film, series, or single episode?
3) Can any bright sparks (preferrably with some knowledge/qualifications/both in computer science and law) think of a way that people could commit to a specific donation, without that money changing hands until the total money committed exceeded a pre-determined amount? (The reason for this is that there's no point us sending money to Joss until we're sure that the total contribution will be enough for him to use).
4) Is Joss wealthy enough (or going to be after up-coming projects) to fund it on his own, thus rending this entire idea pointless?
5) Is there any really obvious reason why this is a dumb idea?
6) If the poll is anything to go on, then over the next 3 years we could easily be capable of pooling together several million dollars.

WARNING: even the most intelligent of people have been ripped of by cheap internet scams. Just in case this post gives some nasty and greedy person any ideas, I advise that NO-ONE give ANY money to any Firefly donation pool that isn't clearly endorsed by Whedon and Mutant Enemy, and known to be secure. Please, don't be dumb when it comes to money and the internet.

Whhhheeeeee!

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:11 PM

FLYERFIE

Whoops! Obviously, question 6 is not a question. I'm not sure where I was going with that, but I'll post an addendum if I remember what I was going to ask...

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:15 PM

NEVERED

as far as episodes go, i know that they are, like most things, cheaper in bulk.

once you build the set (v. expensive) you can re-use it for any subsequent episodes.

i'm not saying that i have the vaguest idea of an answer to any of your questions, but i'm just saying that if you get an answer to #1, it's not as simple as x*22=cost of series.

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:31 PM

FLYERFIE

Good point. It's obvious when you think about it, but I hadn't thought about it yet.
I actually had something slightly different in mind when I asked about the cost of a single episode: If a film/series is too expensive, perhaps single episodes could be released gradually, one at a time. At last count, I had come up with several million flaws in this plan, and I imagine that even someone as passionate as Joss would perhaps not be willing to go through the incredible stress and frustration that such an approach would involve. Making it this way would require a whole new approach, and the scale of Firefly (multiple location-shoots, two huge sets, expensive CG) would probably not suit it.
I only really considered this approach in the interests of covering all possibilities.

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:27 PM

WALKER04

I've wondered about how to fund new episodes or movies ever since my brother sent me the dvds for Christmas (I then ran right out and bought Serenity). It seems that the obvious person to ask this question is Josh himself. Clearly he knows how much of the set/models are still available, how much in terms of out-takes that could be used in new episodes. Plus since he has already produced a year long series and a movie on the subject, he would be the person to address this issue.

No reason that fans couldn't become shareholders? It would certainly guarantee people in the audience and might make the additional funding needed to pull it off possible.

walker04

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:00 PM

KANESKI

Quote:

1) How much money would be needed to make:
- a film?
- a series?
- a single episode?

a film - around 45-50 mil.

series - My guess would be... 10-12 mil base + 1.5-1.7mil/episode. Plus overrun, marketing (hah! at F*x), not to mention opportunity cost (studio space, air time, everything else could be taken by a more profitable show - if there's no space in a studio, there's no space. Firefly would effectively have to edge out another show.) But I AM GUESSING.

single episodes, or even TV movies are simply impractical for a sci-fi show, due to the need to build up, then demolish, then rebuild the sets.

Quote:
2) Could a separate poll be started elsewhere on this site that gives people the opportunity to say exactly how much they would be willing to donate for a film, series, or single episode?

I'm only a 'verse convert since October 2005, but I'm willing to bet there have been 100s of these polls by now.

Quote:
3) Can any bright sparks (preferrably with some knowledge/qualifications/both in computer science and law) think of a way that people could commit to a specific donation, without that money changing hands until the total money committed exceeded a pre-determined amount? (The reason for this is that there's no point us sending money to Joss until we're sure that the total contribution will be enough for him to use).

Relatively simple to do, but expensive to set up. The simplicity is standard contract/fundraising/IPO rules - people are legally committed to give their money once a certain condition is met (certain condition being - enough commitment is made). I seriously doubt organising it via the internet, without the support of Mutant Enemy will have any weight to it. At all.

BUT

Given
a) The legal structure would have to be extremely complex. Organising it as a company or a trust would mean the company/trust would need full-time paid professionals not just from the moment there's enough commitments, but from the original signing on the company register. And if it takes 3-4 years to get the commitments - a lot of salaries to pay. Any other form of organisation wouldn't have the weight to it, and as much as I love and trust browncoats... doing it on trust alone isn't going to cut it.

b) Tax issues alone will be enough to kill a man.

c) Given that browncoats would probably donate internationally, it means additional experts, more law, more people to pay before the thing even starts. It could happen miraculously that we'll find browncoat with both the expertise and time to help, but that's highly unlikely.

Quote:
4) Is Joss wealthy enough (or going to be after up-coming projects) to fund it on his own, thus rending this entire idea pointless?

If it were the case, I imagine he'd weigh in after FF was cancelled. He's already had success before FF, so I don't see his wealth changing so significantly as to have enough spare for a revival.

Quote:
5) Is there any really obvious reason why this is a dumb idea?

Not dumb. Just too much trouble. And not enough people to sort it out.

Quote:
6) If the poll is anything to go on, then over the next 3 years we could easily be capable of pooling together several million dollars.

Even with say... 15000 coats, giving their 100-120/year, it would be a meager 5-6mil after 3 years. To do this properly, you'd need the same 15000 coats giving $800-1000 per year. And by the way, I'm pretty sure the studios know that a renewed FF series/mini/etc would make a profit. They just don't want to wait several years for that to happen, when they can do it with more certainty and much faster with another show. For the coats and other fans it's a question of liking a series. For the suits - it's a question of money. Call it evil, unfair, whatever. "Way it is is the way it is."

Personally, I think it's entirely plausible to partly raise money for another series/movie of Firefly. Here's the broad outline of what I think is probably the more realistic and possible approach:

First and foremost, we'd need a studio to partner with. Without set space, vast costume wardrobes and other necessities, costs run much higher. Obviously Joss/Mutant Inc. would have to be the captains (as it were.) The deal is simple in theory, but would take some work in practice.

Sign up coats for a set investment of $1000 minimum. Legally binding. No money is taken until there's enough commitment. The exact threshold I don't know, 'cause I don't know the cost, but I'd say if fans can raise for around 25-30% it's plausible. The crux would be that the studio is allowed to recoup their costs first. That is, the ad revenue, air rights, dvd sales, etc... are first and foremost used to pay the studio for their investment. That's the only way they'd agree. Anything left over is then used to pay the coats. So, say a series costs 50mil and 10mil of it is coat-raised. The first 40mil + interest/etc goes to the studio. After that - the coats are repaid. It would take years for the coats to get repaid, but not the studio.

I think that's as close to anything tangible as it gets.

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:36 PM

FLETCH2

You obviously haven't heard of "studio accounting." If you say something to a studio like "you don't have to pay us until you make back your investment +30%" guess what? That would never ever happen.

The ONLY way that fan money will ever result in a new series it to buy those DVDs.

If you REALLY want to directly contribute make fan films, write fan fic, keep the franchise going until someone decides to make the next film.

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:22 AM

KANESKI

I could go into an argument, but for me it would be a fight up a nearly vertical hill. You are right ofcourse Fletch. The point has been proven wrong and tried practically a few times (Enterprise comes to mind). I guess the point of my reply was basically to say that financing a whole season ourselves is impossible, and the $100+ per year poll is nowhere near enough.

But hey, as long as there are fanfics, conventions and all of that franchise-making, there will always be new theoretical methods of financing them. I guess I've just had my theory.

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:45 AM

TURQUOISE

Quote:
"If you REALLY want to directly contribute make fan films, write fan fic, keep the franchise going until someone decides to make the next film."

Or... I wonder what would happen if all the people willing to "donate" would spend their money on, say, 2 extra copies of the Series set off of Amazon.
And then give them away... To anyone!

This would accomplish a flood of sales for Amazon, AND promote the show tremendously by creating new fans to whoever you gave the DVDs to. You could even put them out in the open at a shopping center and put a note on them saying "FREE - This is a great series that you'll love!"

That might spread the word and the popularity of the show even more poignantly.

Or is it a crazy idea?? They did say in the special features that the coats are remarkable people who have done some amazing stuff to help the show... But this would ensure that the money would go toward making the show sell more.

Hmm.... The Free Firefly Project....

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:59 AM

FLETCH2

Well though the series DVD's will make more Browncoats it doesnt help us to persuade Universal to make more movies because they won't see that money.

Dunno

Buy movie DVD's and give them to folks in comic and gaming stores?

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:01 AM

TURQUOISE

I think it would help to get the series renewed in some way, though, wouldn't it? More coats means a bigger fan base... After all, Family Guy was renewed on DVD sales alone.

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 3:33 AM

FLETCH2

Family guy is also really cheap to make and has little by way of up front overheads. Right now the only people that can make Firefly cheaply are Universal, because they have their version of the sets stored. Otherwise you are looking at something like $2M before you take one frame of new footage.

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:27 AM

FLYERFIE

I like the idea of buying extra copies of Firefly/Serenity and giving them to people or leaving them to be taken in public places. It may be a good idea to include a piece of paper explaing our cause and inviting others to join. Perhaps we could start some pay-it-forward style chain reactions happening...

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:38 AM

GLOBLABSURDITY

Perhaps this is not the place to make this comment--but I see that everyone is very concerned about the return of Firefly--and for myself, I would like nothing better. However, it seems that something needs to be done very soon. What makes this show a hit for me is the blending of the actors. I've never seen a television program that had such a naturalness to it--a bonding of the characters, their talents are seemless--and each is as good as any A-list actor anywhere in Hollywood.
My point is--these most excellent actors need to eat, clothe themselves, pay various bills, etc...
All of this necessitates a moving on...
Which many have done--so who's to say that the original cast will be back for Firefly. It would be easier for them, and more lucrative--to do more movies instead, I'm thinking. I guess what I'm really saying is--does anyone want the show back without the original cast?!--Not withstanding the changes in cast brought on by the movie.

*Never judge a book by it's movie*
*The heart is an artist that paints over what profoundly disturbs it, leaving on the canvas a less dark,less sharp version of the truth*--D.Koontz (Forever Odd)

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:40 AM

FLYERFIE

(Whoops, posted before re-reading again)
By piece of paper, I mean semi-professional looking, printed, colour piece of paper. I'm happy to write the content if someone else is able to put it in a nice format (be careful with copyrights if including pictures/logos). It could be made available for people to download from this site. Who do I contact to ask about doing that?
Kaneski makes many good points regarding the difficulties of setting up any sort of formalised donation scheme. Still, it would be worth suggesting the idea to Joss just in case he knows something we don't. Kaneski, since you've been 'round longer than me, and seem to know the most on this, would you mind doing so? No worries (yeah, I'm Australian) if you'd rather not.

WHHHHEEEeeeeeee!!!

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:05 AM

TANSTAAFL28

We play our cards right and we won't have to fund it at all. I'm thinking of a cable channel that has resurrected other sci-fi series and they've gone off to have incredible runs...and they now have the clout to pretty much do what they want. I say we start a campaign to have the Sci-Fi channel bring Firefly back on the air. It seems to me they won't need a whole lot of convincing.

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:41 AM

TURQUOISE

Ok, guys. Even one voice of support is enough for me!

I'm going to start The Free Firefly Project website right now. Will update here as soon as it's off and flying.

My preliminary note is looking something like this:
*****************************
"FREE !!

Thank you for picking me up.
I am part of The Free Firefly Project,
an effort by fans to share this wonderful series with the public.
If you like the Sci Fi or Western genre, or just a classic story with compelling characters, Firefly is for you.
You can also pass me on as a gift to a friend. I'm sure to make a fan out of someone you know!"

Only a series this good can be given away;
to us, it's priceless.

(Provide link to site.)

*********************************
I ought to start a poll to see how many people would be willing to participate. But yeah, time is critical. Now is the best time to start.

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:22 PM

WILDHARE

Add a link to Sci-fi channel on it so we can contact them directly everytime we feel a bug to do it.

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 2:43 AM

TANSTAAFL28

I'm with you. I don't care if the entire Alliance is against us, I'm a "Browncoat" to the end...

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 2:43 AM

TANSTAAFL28

I must have double-clicked, but that changes nothing...

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:43 AM

SPARKLE

hey there,

put this in other post, but seems more relevant here!!

in uk empire magazine web page, there is an interview with joss whedon, who says that if enough people buy serenity dvd, there is a chance the series will be picked up by another network!

sounds good to me!!

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Sunday, January 22, 2006 1:44 PM

SHINEY777

Sounds good to me. I have Series and Movie on order for friends and family. And you are right, time is of the essence. It wouldn't be the same without the cast. They are Firefly, and I agree that they are perfect together. No other actors have meshed so well, so quickly, without a flaw in ANY other series. I am a HUGE Star Trek nut, but after seeing Firefly, I can't seem to figure out what I was so excited about for all those Star Trek years. Star Trek pales in comparison, and coming from me, that means something. (At least, to me it does, of course, you folk don't know me, but anyway...).
I'm in!

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Sunday, January 22, 2006 4:32 PM

DOGGIE

And me too. Already have the series and have the movie on order, (not out until Feb.8 in Australia). I don't have to think what to buy friends for birthdays anymore. Can't believe how taken i am with this show and couldn't agree more with whats been said about the cast - yep, these folk are Firefly, couldn't bear to lose any of them.

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 1:14 PM

SHINEY777

Check out the 'Alright...enough screwin' around. Let's get this series back on the air' thread.
A Browncoat mailing campaign is brewing, and everyone's input is needed!

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 2:40 PM

KILLIAN

This is somewhat getting away from the topic, but does anyone know:
1. Is there any fanflic in the works?
2. Would anyone be interested in a fanflic in the 'verse but not firefly?

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