BLUE SUN ROOM

Rayne Lovers and Haters

POSTED BY: CRYSTALKEI
UPDATED: Sunday, June 14, 2009 06:41
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 12124
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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:21 AM

CRYSTALKEI


Okay, I write it, I do. I heart Rayne, but unlike many folks that I have had a chance to talk to on Rayne sites. I don't think there is any basis in canon for it. We love it, but I don't think Joss was going there. At least not anytime soon. Taking 'copper for a kiss' and his reaction to her in the BDM during the lilac job as pre-rayne is stretching...WAY streching.

I look at it like this: Spike didn't show up in S2 of Buffy with the idea OMG! I want Buffy! Joss didn't say, let's get this badass and then he can dump his crazy GF, and by S6 he can be so obsessed with Buffy that he can try to rape her, then go get a soul just for her. Now, I love Spike/Buffy, I think they made a better pair than her and Angel, but if Jayne and River were gonna get together in the show, it would have HAD to be seasons later. WAY later.

So, let's hash it out...i know there are lovers and haters of the ship...I love it, but I can also see that it's all in my head. How 'bout you?

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:36 AM

TINADOLL


I used to be a Jaylee fan. Now i actually <3 Rayne more. For some reason i see Jayne and River as a perfect match. Both are dangerous but with childlike additudes.


I still think River could kick Jaynes butt though!


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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:39 AM

CRYSTALKEI


i do love to have them beat the crap out of eachother routinely in my fics. like buffy and spike 'bringin down the house' in season 6.

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:43 AM

TINADOLL


Quote:

Originally posted by crystalkei:
i do love to have them beat the crap out of eachother routinely in my fics. like buffy and spike 'bringin down the house' in season 6.


Those are the best fics. I tell ya!

And I love it when it ends and he carries her to his bunk


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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:11 AM

LEIASKY


I don't particularly like it. I don't think Joss would have gone there - at least not in the first 5 years. . .

But - that said, if anything is written believably, I'll read it. But rarely is anything Rayne (or any non cannon pairing )related written believably enough to make me like it - or want to read anything else by that author if they're known to write only that pairing.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:13 AM

CRYSTALKEI


Quote:

Originally posted by Leiasky:
I don't particularly like it. I don't think Joss would have gone there - at least not in the first 5 years. . .




i am with you on that...i am...hence my wondering what others think.

ps...i love your stuff L!

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:25 AM

TINADOLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Leiasky:
But - that said, if anything is written believably, I'll read it. But rarely is anything Rayne (or any non cannon pairing )related written believably enough to make me like it - or want to read anything else by that author if they're known to write only that pairing.


I actually feel that way about Malara. Every fic i have read pairing Mal with Inara its always sappy and angsty. It doesn't catch my attention.


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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:29 AM

LEIASKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
Every fic i have read pairing Mal with Inara its always sappy and angsty. It doesn't catch my attention.




I have to agree with you. There's nothing about that potential relationship that would be easy or quick about them getting together. The snark is too much fun. I'm not nearly as interested in them, though, and I tend to skip over most of the sap related to them in stories. Mal4Prez does them well, but she's one of the few.

But - this is a Rayne thread, I don't want to veer too much off topic! LOL!

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:36 AM

TINADOLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Leiasky:
Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
Every fic i have read pairing Mal with Inara its always sappy and angsty. It doesn't catch my attention.




I have to agree with you. There's nothing about that potential relationship that would be easy or quick about them getting together. The snark is too much fun. I'm not nearly as interested in them, though, and I tend to skip over most of the sap related to them in stories. Mal4Prez does them well, but she's one of the few.

But - this is a Rayne thread, I don't want to veer too much off topic! LOL!



I have read Mal4Prez's fics. They are really good. But yes-The snark is way too much fun. On the other hand the potential phsicallity of Rayne makes it all the more interesting

(lol see how i got back on topic there)


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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:42 AM

LEIASKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
On the other hand the potential phsicallity of Rayne makes it all the more interesting

(lol see how i got back on topic there)




Yes, I can see it. But - not immediately and it would take a LOT of time and character growth on both sides. If Joss went that way, I think it would have taken years. Taking time is something most fic writers don't do. They just write their favorite pairing without any thought as to whether it would be believable or not. Nothing wrong with it. Some people will like it regardless and not care.

But it's important to me as a reader (and as a writer), though not everyone is so picky:)

Tamsinling wrote a long story that had the rayne pairing develop over time. The name of it escapes me at the moment. She does list pairings on her stories so I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:54 AM

TINADOLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Leiasky:
Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
On the other hand the potential phsicallity of Rayne makes it all the more interesting

(lol see how i got back on topic there)




Yes, I can see it. But - not immediately and it would take a LOT of time and character growth on both sides. If Joss went that way, I think it would have taken years. Taking time is something most fic writers don't do. They just write their favorite pairing without any thought as to whether it would be believable or not. Nothing wrong with it. Some people will like it regardless and not care.

But it's important to me as a reader (and as a writer), though not everyone is so picky:)

Tamsinling wrote a long story that had the rayne pairing develop over time. The name of it escapes me at the moment. She does list pairings on her stories so I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find.



I like Taminsling as well. However long stories are not geranlly good ones. I have read stories 15 chapters long that are much better then 50. Sometimes its just too much. For Rayne,hoewever, its nessisary. I don't think River ,when the canon ended with BDM, was ready for anything. Girls been through alot. She gotta learn the basics.

I wish more fics dealt less pairings or off canon characters (Guilty as charged) and more with individual characters. Well done Rayne(or Jaylee) is my fav as well as Wash/Zoe and Mal/Inara. But there is a lot of crap floating out there. And i haven't bothered reading new fics in awhile.


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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:57 AM

LEIASKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
But there is a lot of crap floating out there.



Truer words were never spoken. Sooooo much crap! Though, I blame Mal4Prez for making me sooooo picky in the last 6 months. LOL!

Not that I wasn't before, but, its worse now. LOL!

Quote:

I like Taminsling as well. However long stories are not geranlly good ones.


I mostly agree. Long chapter stories, especially if they take a long time to complete, are very hard to follow - and I usually just give up and don't bother.


"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:52 AM

SINGATE


I'm not a big reader of fanfic but I do believe this relationship to be completely plausible. I don't base this on anything that happened between them on screen. There is very little even hinted at in the series other than Jayne's comment about her "not all being there, but then again not all of her has to be". The one thing during the series that leads me to the pairing didn't involve either Jayne or River. The comment by Simon that Kaylee is literally the only girl for him would also be true for River with regards to Jayne. The only other option would be Mal and that's never going to happen.

Post BDM her mind seems to be clear enough that she could engage in a romantic relationship, and let's face it, her hormones will be kicking in as well.

I don't suggest that Jayne would jump at the opportunity. In fact, I think River would be the one to broach the idea. As much as Jayne is ruled by his libido he isn't a complete idiot. He knows the rest of the crew would be very protective of River and doesn't want to catch any more heat than he does for his other activities.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:52 AM

MOBBEX


Don't make faces

Here's how I see it.

Or how I DON'T see it, actually... Hell, where did this even come from? I mean, as it's been said, there realy is no canon base for it. Why would they ever be interested in each other?

Because they are both "living weapons"? Thats niou-se. Jayne may enjoy that side of himself but River surely doesn't. Her inability to deal with violence or highly aggressive emotions has been detailed on more that a few occasions. Then again, she also has wrecked quite a lot of havoc herself on a few occasion, but she did so out of A) behavior conditionning B) the need to protect her brother/crew. River isn't a violent creature. Violence freaks her out. As for Jayne, well, he personifies violence, he enjoys it. There more to him than that, granted, but not much.

So, they both have "childish" episodes? Well, as I see it, Jayne's underdevelopped psyche is the result of his primal upbringing and his "me against the world" lifestyle. He never needed to develop his human side, so he never bothered to. On the other hand, River's bouts of infantile behavior result from needles (and a great variety of oher sharp objects) being thrust through her brainpan. No to mention the fact that she is a traumatized 17 years old girl with basically no life experience. These behavior patterns might be similar at first glance, but they come from two totaly different places. Jayne embraces it ; River is trying to grow out of it. And I like to believe that she is succeeding, I'm a hopeful sort

But what do they feel for each other? First of all, lets face it : Jayne hates her guts. He never hid the fact that he didnt want her on the ship. He tried to sell her out! Twice! Thrice? He's always viewed her as a threat. 'Turns out he was right, too. As for River, I think it's fair to say that she has very little consideration for him. Obviously she is aware of his latent hostility, and it's just as obvious that it doesn't unsettles her the least bit.

Bottom line: There will always be a huge gap between them. I think they could get along eventually, on a professionnal level, but romance? Not in a million years!

(Point of interest: I left out the age difference thing deliberately, because I realy think it's totaly irrelevant.)

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:14 AM

MAL4PREZ


I do see a basis for an understanding and friendship between these two. River's not going to bond so well with someone "normal," and she doesn't have many options as far as people to hang out with. Jayne's got a simplicity that I think she'd enjoy messing with, and he could eventually see her as an annoying little sister. Maybe like messing back. (No - not THAT kind of messing!)

If the series had gotten all it's 7 seasons, maybe something more could have happened. In like - season 6 or 7, after River had settled down quite a bit and gotten some life experience.

Problem is, so much Rayne-fic has them just jumping right into bed, and that can only be accomplished by making them both so out of character that I lose interest. That said, I've never left a comment flaming anyone for writing Rayne. They can write all they want, but I've given up on reading it. I never make it far.

And... this will be unpopular with some... but can I say that I'm a bit squicked by any fic that has a BDM panting over her? The River pairings I've seen seem to start with Mal or Jayne suddenly watching her little body and how she moves and getting all hot and bothered. It makes me want to call that MSNBC guy to come and catch the predator LOL! I mean, a grown man being attracted to a mentally disturbed girl? Freaks me out! Can't it start with a connection between their personalities and minds and slowly - very slowly - progress from there? Please?

(And - thanks for the defense of Mal/Inara Leaisky, and the nice words Tinadoll!)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:59 AM

ROMANCEGURU


I get what you’re saying. If I stopped long enough to pull my head out of the clouds, and think in canon terms, I agree that the relationship would have been a very slow build.

There’s a huge debate over whether Joss would of gone there eventually, I say yes. The pairing is twisted, fun, sexy, and humorous. I also think it helps that the actors themselves had loads of OS chemistry. Perhaps it’s just that, that makes Rayne lovers interpret certain canon moments as something more?

Yes, Jayne disliked River during canon, but after Miranda, I think he finally gained insight, saw the bigger picture. It goes with the whole Jayne dislikes what he can’t understand theory.

Fic wise, I’m too impatient to write a six season story arc. I find abrupt and out of left corner Rayne just as amusing. That’s my purgative. First and foremost, I write for me (as most writers do). It’s an outlet and it’s supposed to be fun. Remember fun?

While it’s fulfilling to hook new readers, I’m not going to stress about making everyone happy. It’s impossible. There are those that already enjoy Rayne and “see it”. I write for those people.

“River isn't a violent creature. Violence freaks her out. As for Jayne, well, he personifies violence, he enjoys it. There more to him than that, granted, but not much.”

I can see the part of River that is freaked out about it, but I can also see her embracing who she is now. How else is she going to cope?

There’s a morbidity to her that some people forget, and for better or worse, I think it’s going to remained ingrained in her personality. River is not going to return to the sweet girl she was pre-academy. While she might not enjoy violence per say, I think she will use her abilities in the future and not bat an eye. She’s smart enough to know how the ‘verse works, and will adjust accordingly.

************************************************
What we need's a diversion. I say Zoe gets nekkid.

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:11 AM

CRYSTALKEI


Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:





“River isn't a violent creature. Violence freaks her out. As for Jayne, well, he personifies violence, he enjoys it. There more to him than that, granted, but not much.”

I can see the part of River that is freaked out about it, but I can also see her embracing who she is now. How else is she going to cope?

There’s a morbidity to her that some people forget, and for better or worse, I think it’s going to remained ingrained in her personality. River is not going to return to the sweet girl she was pre-academy. While she might not enjoy violence per say, I think she will use her abilities in the future and not bat an eye. She’s smart enough to know how the ‘verse works, and will adjust accordingly.
B]



so true! she is a completely different person than the kid that went off to the academy, she's making her place in the world with who she is NOW, not before.

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:18 AM

TINADOLL


Quote:

It makes me want to call that MSNBC guy to come and catch the predator LOL!


That just made me spit coffee! (waves@ Mal4prez)

There are some great points in this thread (yah thread)(for the River/Jayne pairing anyway) I am sure that Adam Baldwin would think differently- he thinks Inara and Jayne would have made a cute couple... Oh the horror...




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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:23 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:
Fic wise, I’m too impatient to write a six season story arc. I find abrupt and out of left corner Rayne just as amusing. That’s my purgative. First and foremost, I write for me (as most writers do). It’s an outlet and it’s supposed to be fun. Remember fun?

I'm all good with fun! Really, I don't hate this pairing, I just never have been able to enjoy it. And it's not even a canon thing - I've encounted Mal/Simon and Mal/Jayne that I found entertaining, although that's waaaay outside canon. But I just never have been able to get into any River pairing.

I guess that's kind of weird... slash before River romance. There's no accounting for taste!


Quote:

While it’s fulfilling to hook new readers, I’m not going to stress about making everyone happy. It’s impossible. There are those that already enjoy Rayne and “see it”. I write for those people.
And please continue! These threads are all about getting from 9 to 5 LOL!


Quote:

There’s a morbidity to her that some people forget, and for better or worse, I think it’s going to remained ingrained in her personality.
I so agree! I think she's a little crucible of stuff that's gonna meld and come out as something completely new someday. And be really really cool.

Damn, I was this show hadn't been cancelled LOL!



-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:41 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
That just made me spit coffee! (waves@ Mal4prez)

*waves* Mission accomplished LOL!

Quote:

There are some great points in this thread (yah thread)(for the River/Jayne pairing anyway) I am sure that Adam Baldwin would think differently- he thinks Inara and Jayne would have made a cute couple... Oh the horror...
hunh.

That's one you don't see often. Can't even picture it. (Not trying too hard...)


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:10 AM

CRYSTALKEI


yeah, i just watched the CE commentary and there is a whole bit about adam pitching to joss about hookin' up with inara...so funny! i mean, that would have just been hilariously weird.

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:42 AM

MOBBEX


Don't make faces

Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I can see the part of River that is freaked out about it, but I can also see her embracing who she is now. How else is she going to cope?

There’s a morbidity to her that some people forget, and for better or worse, I think it’s going to remained ingrained in her personality. River is not going to return to the sweet girl she was pre-academy. While she might not enjoy violence per say, I think she will use her abilities in the future and not bat an eye. She’s smart enough to know how the ‘verse works, and will adjust accordingly.

************************************************
What we need's a diversion. I say Zoe gets nekkid.



As I said before, I think that in time she can learn to deal with the bad and the ugly, but I don't think she is ever likely to enjoy it. She has a morbid streak, no denying, but she hasn't lost her humanity. And, if anything. I think she will only get more of it back with time. So assuming she decides to stay with the crew, she would make a damn fine pilot, and I can see her defending the ship on occasion. But helping out on jobs, assaulting alliance installations, torturing people for information or whatever... Nah, leave that to Jayne. And Zoe. And Mal. And [insert OC name here].

So yeah I don't think she can ever take death and pain lightly. Sure, she can wield 'em with style, but that's not her world. Thats one of the reason I can't see her ever hooking up with Jayne, and that's also why I can't see her becoming the remorse-less buttock-saving killing machine she depicted as in so many fics. Realy I just read that as the easy(read: lazy) way to write action/fight scenes, think "Then River comes in and kill's them all. End." Coping with the past is good. Becoming a stone-cold super ninja is something entirely else.

TAM: Nickname for Scottish/Gaelic Tomas, meaning, "twin"

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:43 AM

ROMANCEGURU


Quote:

But I just never have been able to get into any River pairing.


That’s understandable. We all have our mental blocks, mine is Jaylee (too saccharine for my tastes). To each his or her own, right? I appreciate that you’re a full supporter of artistic freedom! : )

Quote:

And please continue! These threads are all about getting from 9 to 5 LOL!


Oh, I will. I enjoy it too much not to. ; )

It’s just the people that expect you to convince them (when really, these are the same people that will never be convinced of it, perhaps even if Joss decided to go there) that irk me.

Quote:

I so agree! I think she's a little crucible of stuff that's gonna meld and come out as something completely new someday. And be really really cool.

Damn, I was this show hadn't been cancelled LOL!



Yes, too bad! That’s why I find River the most intriguing to write, because there’s just so much to explore! I love that girl. I feel no guilt in shipping her, but believe you me, I can understand the other side of it. : )

*************************************************
"And I'll just fade away."

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:44 AM

ROMANCEGURU


Adam still feels that way? *cries* Thank god Joss is in charge!

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:01 PM

ROMANCEGURU


Quote:

As I said before, I think that in time she can learn to deal with the bad and the ugly, but I don't think she is ever likely to enjoy it. She has a morbid streak, no denying, but she hasn't lost her humanity. And, if anything. I think she will only get more of it back with time. So assuming she decides to stay with the crew, she would make a damn fine pilot, and I can see her defending the ship on occasion. But helping out on jobs, assaulting alliance installations, torturing people for information or whatever... Nah, leave that to Jayne. And Zoe. And Mal. And [insert OC name here].

So yeah I don't think she can ever take death and pain lightly. Sure, she can wield 'em with style, but that's not her world. Thats one of the reason I can't see her ever hooking up with Jayne, and that's also why I can't see her becoming the remorse-less buttock-saving killing machine she depicted as in so many fics. Realy I just read that as the easy(read: lazy) way to write action/fight scenes, think "Then River comes in and kill's them all. End." Coping with the past is good. Becoming a stone-cold super ninja is something entirely else.




I agree that there has to be a balance between new and old River, her humanity and the weapon inside of her.

But I disagree that her conscious is pure. She seen things, horrible things and for better or worse she’s affected. There’s an indifference to her and a wall that she can summon, that I think would allow her to make the choice to help the crew.

Yes, she will never enjoy it, but she doesn’t need to. She’s embedded with that switch. And thank god, because the full reality of it would be overwhelming.

I don’t think Mal or Zoe particularly enjoys killing either, but they do it nonetheless. I’m also not so certain Jayne’s a hundred percent with the idea either. Sure he enjoys a good fight, but it’s not like he’s in his bunk dreaming up the next time he can blow someone’s head off. This is the life they lead. Adaptation my dear friend.

************************************************
"Don't belong. Dangerous, like you."

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:21 PM

CRYSTALKEI


let's go back to buffy for a moment...buffy never wanted to be the slayer, she didn't particularly enjoy slaying like say, faith did. But, she did it, it was her job. yada yada. i think river can take the step to know that it's part of who she is, and it's necessary sometimes to use that yucky part of her to help her family out. she doesn't have to enjoy killing to want to be part of a job. not all the jobs involve killin' and when they do, it's not like they plan that part. how you plan and what is gonna happen ain't exactly that similar. ;D

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:30 PM

NBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by crystalkei:
let's go back to buffy for a moment...buffy never wanted to be the slayer, she didn't particularly enjoy slaying like say, faith did. But, she did it, it was her job. yada yada. i think river can take the step to know that it's part of who she is, and it's necessary sometimes to use that yucky part of her to help her family out. she doesn't have to enjoy killing to want to be part of a job. not all the jobs involve killin' and when they do, it's not like they plan that part. how you plan and what is gonna happen ain't exactly that similar. ;D

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly



But isn't she the anti-Buffy? In other words she does not have to kill anything (Simon tried to take her away from that world.), and there is no such thing as "Vampires and demons that need to be destroyed" in the firefly 'Verse.

(I will try and not comment on Rayne as I will probably offend many people in doing so.)

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:34 PM

CRYSTALKEI


she doesn't have to kill anything, and like i said, she doesn't want to, but it doesn't seem hugely out of character for her to go out on jobs. she went pretty willingly in the BDM... and well, i am pretty hard to offend, go ahead and post your rayne views. ;D I like to hear the opinions, its fun!


Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:03 PM

MOBBEX


Don't make faces

Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I agree that there has to be a balance between new and old River, her humanity and the weapon inside of her.


Yes!

Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:
But I disagree that her conscious is pure. She seen things, horrible things and for better or worse she’s affected. There’s an indifference to her and a wall that she can summon, that I think would allow her to make the choice to help the crew. Yes, she will never enjoy it, but she doesn’t need to. She’s embedded with that switch. And thank god, because the full reality of it would be overwhelming.



That she is, but I don't believe she can clear a room of it's people content and sleep particularly well the next night, y' know? Still, that can be tended to. Conscience is a fluid thing, even more so for borderline schizophrenic people.

Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I don’t think Mal or Zoe particularly enjoys killing either, but they do it nonetheless. I’m also not so certain Jayne’s a hundred percent with the idea either. Sure he enjoys a good fight, but it’s not like he’s in his bunk dreaming up the next time he can blow someone’s head off. This is the life they lead. Adaptation my dear friend.



All in all, it realy comes down to the life she chooses for herself. Now, on account of some terrible business decisions I absolutely refuse to elaborate on, we will never know for certain what path she would have set herself on. That's a shame . Still, here's my humble opinion : Given her state of emotional vulnerability, "adapting" to a life of killing could be quite the tiresome process, and not one that would necessarily be worth the trouble in the long run. Take it or leave it

I see that we are thinking along the same lines or near enough 'Guess we just disagree on a particular point or two.

Sorry for going repetedly off topic, too

TAM: Nickname for Scottish/Gaelic Tomas, meaning, "twin"

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:05 PM

ROMANCEGURU


River characterization is hard to pinpoint. We all see slightly different variances. And that’s fine, no one opinion is the right one. Unless it’s Joss’s. : )

It is interesting to hear every one’s different take, though.

Yeah, back on topic… What was it again? ;-p

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 8:47 PM

PONYXPRESSINC


Leiasky said...
Quote:

They just write their favorite pairing without any thought as to whether it would be believable or not. Nothing wrong with it. Some people will like it regardless and not care.


This interested me as it struck a cord with my first experience of reading Rayne. It was a PWP and I came close to running away screaming. To come across that out of nowhere when I was new to the whole fanfic experience and fairly new to the whole fandom thing at all was pretty startling. (I've been with Firefly from the first airing in the UK, but this is the first fandom that I've been involved in and it took me a while to get here). Anyway, it was a good while before I had another go at a Rayne fic, which had all the slow development and then, I started to see it as possible and to enjoy it.

Then I noticed a change, I can deal quite happily with the fic's that jump straight in. My head's up to speed, I see it as possible and now I don't need the fic equivalent of dinner and a movie to enjoy it (I'm not talking specifically about PWP here, I'm talking about Rayne in general). I think that someone who writes Rayne (BTW I do, just not here) perhaps particularly in the Rayneshippers community doesn't feel the need to explain it all in detail every time because they know that the audience is with them.

As Romanceguru said...

Quote:

While it’s fulfilling to hook new readers, I’m not going to stress about making everyone happy. It’s impossible. There are those that already enjoy Rayne and “see it”. I write for those people.


*waves at Romanceguru* It's JD, I'm here icognito.





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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:44 PM

SPACEANJL


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
I do see a basis for an understanding and friendship between these two. River's not going to bond so well with someone "normal," and she doesn't have many options as far as people to hang out with. Jayne's got a simplicity that I think she'd enjoy messing with, and he could eventually see her as an annoying little sister. Maybe like messing back. (No - not THAT kind of messing!)

And... this will be unpopular with some... but can I say that I'm a bit squicked by any fic that has a BDM panting over her? The River pairings I've seen seem to start with Mal or Jayne suddenly watching her little body and how she moves and getting all hot and bothered. It makes me want to call that MSNBC guy to come and catch the predator LOL! I mean, a grown man being attracted to a mentally disturbed girl? Freaks me out! Can't it start with a connection between their personalities and minds and slowly - very slowly - progress from there? Please?

B]



Jayne and River with a kind of bratty sibling relationship works for me. Everything else frightens me horribly. Seriously, I don't think those two characters fit together romantically. My view:

Jayne: Sick ain't sexy, an' I don't chase children.

River: So not my type. (Pulls face) Not housebroken. No romance in his simple soul.

No, I have my own ideas who River considers a suitable target for romantic longing Yes, it might well freak a few folk out.

Mind you, it's probably going to freak out the BDH even more...

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:59 AM

THEHEROOFWILLIAMTOWN


I don't see it that hard to imagine. I mean if you had to listen to the various thoughts of the crew all day hanging around with Jayne would be relaxing. He would probably like her because she can actually beat him up and that sets her apart from most girls i'd conjure.


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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 5:04 AM

PONYXPRESSINC


To Spaceanjl

Quote:

No, I have my own ideas who River considers a suitable target for romantic longing Yes, it might well freak a few folk out.


I could stand to hear more on the subject It's been a while since the last Jayne/Largi outing and I for am looking forward to seeing what happens River/Mal wise.

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 5:11 AM

LEIASKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:

No, I have my own ideas who River considers a suitable target for romantic longing Yes, it might well freak a few folk out.

Mind you, it's probably going to freak out the BDH even more... :evil



Simon?

I remember an interview with Summer where she mentions it'll be nice to play someone who isn't in love with her brother.


"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:14 AM

MERRYK


Quote:

I remember an interview with Summer where she mentions it'll be nice to play someone who isn't in love with her brother.


Eww. I hope she wasn't serious. At least Sean Maher was disgusted by the thought of River/Simon fanfics.

Although, why is it that most people believe that in love must mean lust? I am just as much 'in love' with my siblings as River and Simon are, and frankly find the incest comments as almost insulting to our relationship...as if any strong relationship must be sexual. Lust is such a simple explanation, and it cheapens the magnificent performances of Sean Maher and Summer Glau IMHO. Yes, they are in love with each other, but it is not sexual love, and that is important to note: they love each other not because they are attracted to each other, but because they have chosen to care for and protect unconditionally this person in their life.

It is easy to care for someone you are attracted physically to, and what makes Simon and River's relationship so powerful is that those thoughts aren't even there; they have a love as powerful as any of the great romances in the world without the cheapening explanation of sexuality.

Tamcest is to me like most slash relationships; people see a great friendship, and want to turn it into romance, when it was so much more interesting and likely as a great friendship. Those can exist without lust, I know for a fact. Can we not be in love with a relationship without sexual tones? Just because English has only one word for love does not mean that there is only one kind, and it is nice to see more variety in Firefly at least, if not exactly in fanfiction.

I think about Rayne the same way. It seems like a lot of fans want romantic relationships, but these are the easiest route. It is much more realistic (and also much more difficult for writers) to write the other forms of love: friendship, familial love, selfless love. Now, I'm not entirely against Rayne, if proper time is taken to show me how they could get together, but any interesting chemistry they had in the show/movie was due to the fact that it wasn't just the beginnings of lust. They had a complex relationship, and simplifying that to suddenly being attracted to each other is tragic IMHO. I see them having a "rapport" of professional friendship and teasing long before any romantic thoughts.

As a final note, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

~Merry

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:12 AM

SPACEANJL


Quote:

Originally posted by Leiasky:
Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:

No, I have my own ideas who River considers a suitable target for romantic longing Yes, it might well freak a few folk out.

Mind you, it's probably going to freak out the BDH even more... :evil



Simon?

I remember an interview with Summer where she mentions it'll be nice to play someone who isn't in love with her brother.


B]





That's a 'no'. I know you aren't a fan of my work, but please, credit me with a little decency.

C'mon. Tall, dark, handsome war hero, with a wounded soul that he hides behind kind eyes?

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:02 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
C'mon. Tall, dark, handsome war hero, with a wounded soul that he hides behind kind eyes?

Huh... I thought you were going to say River/Kaylee LOL! You brought it up like it was something bizarre, but River/Mal is hardly novel these days. Seems like it's all over!


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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:52 AM

TINADOLL


I don't see how Mal could even be considered a match for River- Considering the fact that he has the hots for Inara. I mean the Jayne/River story line is clearly speculation- but Mal/River..nah don't see it

On the other hand i want to barf when i think about Simon/River.


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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:58 AM

MAL4PREZ


I agree! I could be president of a non-Mal/River club LOL!

However, I note that Spaceanjl said "River longing for..." above, and not so much an actual pairing. I very much can see River with a crush on the captain (In fact, I'm writing it LOL!) but I think it'd be a childish and naive thing - certainly not returned!

(Edit: don't hate me Mal/River writers... I'm not trying to stop you...)

-----------------------------------------------
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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:23 PM

NBZ


ok, It is time to turn on the hate. Sorry, but I could not keep myself from spoiling this love in. Well, I will try to keep it light and not just bashing Rayne.

(In my defence I was given the go ahead to hate on it properly and have resisted for over a day. Even this post is pretty tame compared to my hatred of it. Hatred is the right word. I really do hate it with a passion.)

The following will contain a lot of assumptions. Some you may dislike, others you may find offensive. Please respond in kind. I am a large semi muscular man. I can handle it.

I will use numbers just to keep on top of my thoughts, not all of which mean anything, or go against Rayne. Call this my anti-Rayne-and-romance-in-general manifesto. (I am thinking as I am typing, so watch out for contradictions ahoy.)

1. Jayne does not Hate River. He does not feel any warmth either. If he didn't find her creepifying and a danger to them all, he would be indifferent. I see absolutely nothing there in between them to build any relationship ever. not in 5 years, ten or 15.

2. Firefly was planned from the start to last 7 seasons, with major plot points probably already planned out. (With Buffy I think I have read the future planning was done after Season 2, but don't quote me on that.)

3. Most of the characters of firefly are adults, unlike Buffy and to an extent Angel. In them character change is acceptable as part of the whole universe. Like a vampire having a total change of heart after probably hundreds of years of eating humans via a crush. (Talking about Spike, not Angel).

4. If it weren't for Rayne, I would lap up convo between River and Jayne. Now I read it with dread waiting for the Rayne to kick in.

5. I have read some Rayne. Some I was freaked out by when I started fan fic, others were by decent authors who went through the steps of getting them together. I still did not believe it as a major part of this is not just changing the character of river (which IS slightly possible), but also major changes in Jayne which I just did not buy.

6. I am of the opinion that the people who like to write Rayne are the romantics who think that they can tame a monster for themselves. They find that romantic. In the real world I would worry about physical harm in those relationships. (Even brutes have relationships where the other person defends them. "You don't understand! It was my fault that he beat me up")

7. While I do not really buy into a relationship between Mal and River, I DO see what connection is being twisted to support this (in the few scenes they have alone there is a peacefulness, acceptance that Mal lacks at all other times. Like he is at peace with what he has decided to do. And then there are the few symbolic times such as in OiS when River returns to Serenity, she does not just glide onto the ship, but Mal catches her. Symbolism? yes. But not for romance IMO. From River, in Ariel she does not lead Simon and Jayne to an exit, but to Mal and Zoe. Once again, a connection - but of safety, not romance.).

7a (because I am too lazy to change the other numbers...) At the same time in support, I have gone from "Obviously Mal will end up with Inara" to "Not a chance is hell". On another forum I really defended them getting together eventually, but when I thought about it, I just do not buy it any longer. IMO the only relationship less likely is Jayne/Inara. And Rayne obviously (the reader can decide which is more likely of the two.). I still can't see them getting jiggy with it. (See point 9)

8. I am a "why?" person. I want to know why somethign happens, how it happens etc. As was pointed out in another topic, There are also "Why not?" people. They ask why can't something happen.

9. The question that I would need answered is NOT Why would River fall for Jayne. It is entirely possible for that. She is crazy afterall. There is a chance she cannot control her hormones at all and will find everyone attractive. The question is Why Jayne (or Mal for that matter) would go for River. That is where it breaks down. Jayne to go for River, he NEEDS to be changed - which is the thing I do not buy at all (and leads to point 5). It is exactly the same for Mal.

10. I am glad that there are Rayne communities. otherwise I would have an even harder task to sift through all the Rayne.

11. Going back to the Why not thingie, I do not knowingly read any story written by someone who has written Rayne. They think too differently from me. (I was gonna make an exception when I thought mal4prez was going down that road - but that was after much thought where I originally planned to no longer continue reading. there are very few exceptions to this "rule" for me) Not only that, I can normally tell that a person will go to Rayne before they actually do. (Jane0904 I thought straight off the bat that that is where they gonna go. It is just the way they write. Same with a few others.)

12. Jayne. I do not see Jayne as a child. I find Saffron much more childish than him. (Even she I would not call "childish") He is a grown person who is where he is through the decisions he has made, the life he has lived. The chances he has never been in love (or massive crush) before are virtually nil.

13. The only thing that puts me off a fic more than Rayne is a fic that assume Mal and Inara will hit it off with no complications, or very small issues where either one will give up their lives easily.

14. Just to round things off, Kaylee and Simon will have real issues. Not just that artificial fic filler where one or the other get angsty with no real reason to. Kaylee may be ultra-sensitive to what Simon says, but she will grow a thicker skin. I do not read fic based on these two too much because it lacks power.

15. I do not like reading fic that is based on romance. For me action is first and foremost with a slight peppering of romance in the corners.

16. Some "romance" stories featuring River (read: not specific to Rayne) do disgust me. Certain topics should be handled with care, and sometimes the story can feel paedophilic.

There. I don't think I have hit too hard on Rayne. It probably says a lot more for my prejudices than reject Rayne, but I do not want to really offend too many people. Either you see it, or are militantly against it. I think point 8 should appease everyone. yeah that should do it. It should cover for point 6 right? Right? (that is probably the only real anti-Rayne post)

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:13 PM

ROMANCEGURU


Yes, I already know how you feel about Rayne, NBZ. Thanks for not reiterating your opinions too nastily. I’m sensitive. ; )

I think you’ve clearly given good reasons why you can never go there.

From what I gather in the fan fiction ‘verse, there are the shippers *waves* and those who are more interested in full story arcs, focusing on extensive plots and explorations of what could have been. I’m not going to hate on either, it’s all a matter of preference.

Quote:

I am of the opinion that the people who like to write Rayne are the romantics who think that they can tame a monster for themselves. They find that romantic. In the real world I would worry about physical harm in those relationships. (Even brutes have relationships where the other person defends them. "You don't understand! It was my fault that he beat me up")


I’m an admitted romantic, obviously. But this…sure it might make an interesting plot point, (I’m actually exploring something like it with a pairing you’d all murder me for) but this is not the reason I was drawn to Rayne or write it.

Sure, there might be some taming involved when it comes to Jayne, but I personally think it’s more interesting to keep the lion in him. It’s the dynamic, clashing of personalities that makes the pairing more fun.

Which goes along with your claim that Jayne needs to be changed. I can’t tell you how many people whether it be friends, acquaintances, teachers, fictional characters ect… that I’ve initially loathed, mostly because I was quick to judge or misunderstand them, that I've come to like, love and respect.

Jayne doesn’t have to change. He just has to see River in a new light. I do think there were signs in canon that he was well on his way.

Also, I can easily separate fiction from RL. That is after all the attraction. Allowing these fiction characters to be in fact, fictional.

Quote:

*waves at Romanceguru* It's JD, I'm here icognito.


Hey, JD! Undercover, eh? Sneaky woman…

*************************************************
“Noah's Ark is a problem.”

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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:47 PM

NBZ


yeah, thanks again for the understanding. Again. (it did also say haters in the title :) )

Jayne seeing River in a new light is where I will be forever stuck. Don't really want that to change either. :)

I see myself a traditionalist. Still can't accept that River would become the main pilot anytime soon, which a lot of fics to suggest. (two issues to overcome. 1. 100% Sanity (or atleast control over her actions). 2. Trust of the crew that she won't go crazy at any moment.)

If people are writing a realistic Jayne, kudos to them. he is tricky IMO as it is easy to make him child-like when he is not.

I have no problems with people writing Rayne. I just don't want to read it. Or it to become a default pairing. (A few months ago it was almost considered canon on here, before the revolt of the peasants.) As long as some thought is put into the writing/plotting all can be good.

oh, and a hilarious nugget from the firefly movie (that is the original 190 page transcript for the movie) script (which would make me extremely wary in fanfic as I know what would be coming next...)

Quote:

(On ride over to heist at start of film, )

Jayne (leaning forward): "River's touching me. She keeps coming over to my side."

(A beat, Mal tries to maintain his deflated cool.)


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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 4:21 PM

ROMANCEGURU


Quote:

Jayne seeing River in a new light is where I will be forever stuck. Don't really want that to change either. :) ...


Definitely, I could see that. Enjoying and appreciating their relationship as is.

I don't see him as a child either (childish at times, maybe), on that we agree. Although, it could be argued that men are in fact, overgrown children. Kidding! Maybe.

Quote:

(On ride over to heist at start of film, )

Jayne (leaning forward): "River's touching me. She keeps coming over to my side."

(A beat, Mal tries to maintain his deflated cool.)



Really?! Ha! That's too funny. Thanks for sharing that.

*************************************************
"Jayne, your mouth is talking. You might want to look to that."

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 12:26 AM

NBZ


Quote:

Although, it could be argued that men are in fact, overgrown children. Kidding! Maybe.


That is more true than you may think. No need to kid about us.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 12:42 AM

SPACEANJL


Oh, hell, I'd just written a scene that had the two of them bickering like kids in the shuttle and Mal losing his cool.

My theory is that Joss Whedon uses my head as an extra storage space.


My own take on any kind of relationship between them hinges on an assumption that Jayne has smaller siblings. (He has at least one brother that we know of.) There's just something in his behaviour that speaks 'big bro' to me. And River is used to being li'l bratty sister.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 4:20 AM

PLATONIST


Oh God, That sounds hi-larious, I don't have access to the longer script.

Anyway, I think Jayne and River could be very funny together, but again, I agree with what has been said earlier. I don't think Joss would have gone there for a looooong time. And even then it would be short lived, more like a romantic stepping-stone for River.

And I don't really see much potential for Mal and River. Mal is a serious mother when it comes to his heart. Mal, being the main character, in regards to River, I see her more as Mal's broken spirit.
From a writer's POV this is a much more engaging relationship to explore than a standard romantic
scenario. Mal talks to the audience through River (the love metaphor). She conveys his feelings for us, from OIS to the film. That is the subtext the writers want us to get, not a sexual attraction.
And those that are trying to find a romantic connection (in the subtext) have to look very hard. It is just NOT there. So leave what you think only can occur between a man and a woman, behind, the writers are challenging YOU to look beyond your preconcieved notions.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 4:31 AM

ROMANCEGURU


Quote:

That is more true than you may think. No need to kid about us.


I just wanted to be cautious in case you guys weren‘t aware. ; )

Quote:

My theory is that Joss Whedon uses my head as an extra storage space.


A while back, (2005) aliaspiral wrote a very humorous fic called Backseat Driver, which sorta plays off the whole squabbling in the back of the mule and driving Mal bonkers concept.

http://aliaspiral.livejournal.com/102756.html

I guess Joss uses her head too.

*************************************************
"Pain is scary."

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 4:53 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I used to be an avid reader of Rayne fic. In fact, it was just about all I read (the next being Mal/River fic).

I haven't read that or any other Firefly fanfic for months now (I know, I'm a bad, bad girl ). My opinions about Rayne have changed over time, but please don't take that to mean that I hate the ship. It's just that over time, I find myself becoming really, really picky about the fanfic I read. I think a Rayne fanfic must be exceptionally written for it to be pulled off. And unfortunately in my experience, those are few and far between.

To be honest, the more I watch shows from the Jossverse, it's harder for me to read fanfic, because I've become a real stickler for canon. Not that every fanfic has to adhere to those terms, that would be horrible. It's just that there are certain lines characters would never cross in my mind, and it's very hard not to take the easy route when writing (which is exactly the reason I've never actually finished a fanfic for one of the shows).

Anyway, getting back to the topic (what was that again?). I think someone would have to be the fanfic equivalent of Superman (or Spiderman, I always liked Marvel better ) to make a Rayne fic work. But since I seem to be among that kind of company, maybe it's time I get off my lazy pigu and start reading again.

***************************************************

"But I neeeeed tacos! I need them or I will explode! That happens to me sometimes."

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:05 AM

LEIASKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:


That's a 'no'. I know you aren't a fan of my work, but please, credit me with a little decency.



I actually don't have any idea what you write. :)If its Mal/ River I won't. Just doesn't interest me.

Your post did seem to indicate it was some odd pairing which is why I guessed Simon and River.



"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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