TROLL COUNTRY

Sheep, baaaaaaah, baaah bah!

POSTED BY: ANGUSTHERMOPYLE
UPDATED: Friday, June 8, 2007 06:23
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 26012
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Friday, December 31, 2004 1:32 AM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Firstly, Firefly is a great TV show and I enjoy watching the DVD; but (and this is kind of big, so some of you might need to pay attention here) IT'S JUST A TV SHOW! It isn't the Magna Carta, or Shakespear (although the jokes are better).

The fact that messages get answered in the same vernacular as the series is (like) so disturbing. Is this a cult now? Do you people have alters to Joss Whedon? I bet many of you have Starfleet uniforms, too...

How many people have learned Mandarin just so they can get the references in the show? Bet no-one tried to learn it because they thought it would be useful in helping the Chinese people who do not have the freedom to speak out or worship as they please. Oh, that got a bit more serious than intended...

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:17 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Isn't that mieh, mieh ?

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:25 AM

PSYCHICRIVER


If thats what you think, then how did you come to be here?

PsychicRiver

"Two by two, hands of blue."
"We can take care of each other. I'll knit!"

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Friday, December 31, 2004 4:43 AM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by PsychicRiver:
If thats what you think, then how did you come to be here?

PsychicRiver
i]



Well, the reason I'm here is coz I'd heard rumours about a possible movie. I wanted to see if they were true. Like I said, I've enjoyed the series. But when I saw the obsessive fan's comments I was amazed.

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 4:47 AM

SPOOKYJESUS


What's the Magna Carta?

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Friday, December 31, 2004 4:51 AM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by Spookyjesus:
What's the Magna Carta?



You could say it's the British equivalent of the US constitution, only a lot older.

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 5:08 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


We're not sheep...more like black-market beagles.

No, I don't have a Starfleet uniform, I've never dressed up as a Klingon, nor as any other character from any other show or movie. I have enjoyed SF and Fantasy films and television and books for many, many years, but this is the first time I have become obsessive about a show, and I feel there is no reason that I or any other Firefly fan should be ashamed of it.

There have been a few times that I have wondered if my obsession is a healthy one, since everytime I mention it to anyone in my family they roll their eyes and give me that look as if they feel they should be calling the men in the white suits with the nets.

But then I watch the DVDs for...what is it now...about the sixteenth time I think...and my obsession begins all over again. Get back to us after you've seen it that many times, okay?




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 5:57 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
Firstly, Firefly is a great TV show and I enjoy watching the DVD; but (and this is kind of big, so some of you might need to pay attention here) IT'S JUST A TV SHOW! It isn't the Magna Carta, or Shakespear (although the jokes are better).

The fact that messages get answered in the same vernacular as the series is (like) so disturbing.



Well the Magna Carta isn't exactly a riveting read... actually neither is Shakespeare for the most part (I agree with Darwin who said reading Shakespeare nauseated him. Terribly overated IMHO).

As for Firefly just being a TV show... yes we know. The use of vernacular from the "'Verse" is mainly for laughs because we have a sense of humour around these parts

Quote:

Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:

Is this a cult now? Do you people have alters to Joss Whedon? I bet many of you have Starfleet uniforms, too...



If you're looking for the Latter Day Whedonists try one of the Buffy or Angel boards, as for wearing Starfleet Uniforms I can only speak for myself but Startrek monumentally blows.


...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, December 31, 2004 6:00 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


BTW, Shakespeare was never meant to be read, it has to be performed to be truly appreciated.



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Friday, December 31, 2004 6:12 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
BTW, Shakespeare was never meant to be read, it has to be performed to be truly appreciated.



True but even on the stage it's still overated in my opinion. Across the English speaking world Shakespeare is lauded as a being the virtual pinacle of excellence and other than a few plays (if acted well which puts much of the credit on actor not author) it just doesn't match up to the hype.

I was practically accused of heresy by my English Literature Teacher at school for saying stuff like this



...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, December 31, 2004 6:58 AM

ZOID



A'Thermopylae spake thus:
Quote:

You could say it's the British equivalent of the US constitution, only a lot older...

...Wherein the Rich agreed to perpetuate the myth of Divine Right, so long as they could split the booty ad infintum.

I'm still game for the Anarcho-Syndicalist Communism Movement, btw...

*zoid sits in the rowboat on the placid lake, and releases the undersized big-mouthed bass back into its waters, saying, 'Run along home littl'un, and bring back yer Papa.'*


Expectorantly,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Friday, December 31, 2004 9:49 AM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
...this is the first time I have become obsessive about a show, and I feel there is no reason that I or any other Firefly fan should be ashamed of it..



I think you missed my point somewhat, mate. I obviously wasn't talking about you. I was talking about people who actually reply to messages in character as in the show.

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 9:51 AM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
BTW, Shakespeare was never meant to be read, it has to be performed to be truly appreciated.



I agree!

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 9:55 AM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
BTW, Shakespeare was never meant to be read, it has to be performed to be truly appreciated.



True but even on the stage it's still overated in my opinion. Across the English speaking world Shakespeare is lauded as a being the virtual pinacle of excellence and other than a few plays (if acted well which puts much of the credit on actor not author) it just doesn't match up to the hype.



Shakespear is "lauded" as you put it over not just the English speaking world. And for good reason. Actors merely read lines and try to give the right emotion to them. How can you say that Shakespear's work was the actor's achievement? That's just dumb! So Nathan is the real talent in Firefly. The writing is meaningless?

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 10:03 AM

GORRAMREAVERS


I am a sheep.


AngusThermopyle



prick


"..it is my very favorite gun."

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Friday, December 31, 2004 10:05 AM

ODDNESS2HER


If it aint on the page, it aint on the stage.

In an increasingly lowest-common-denominator society, excellence in any form deserves appreciation for its contributions to the human spirit. But I get Angus' point about neglecting real-world issues in favor of wallowing in fiction.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 10:19 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
Shakespear is "lauded" as you put it over not just the English speaking world. And for good reason. Actors merely read lines and try to give the right emotion to them. How can you say that Shakespear's work was the actor's achievement? That's just dumb! So Nathan is the real talent in Firefly. The writing is meaningless?



Bit of a strawman argument there AngusThermopyle I never said that the writing was "meaningless" I was merely pointing out that the quality of how good a play is often due to the expertese of the Actors not the play itself.

The fact is that most of the truly great actors have been cast in Shakespearian plays which has helped raise the image of that work in the public eye more than they would be otherwise, think of Laurence Olivier's version of Henry V for example.

I still maintain Shakespeare is overated. That doesn't mean he wasn't any good just that his plays aren't as good as people continually make out.

In many ways I am reminded of Citizen Kane which is routinely voted best film ever but which is also considered by many critics as a triumph of style over substance. Its continued grasp on the top spot is due to a large degree on people repeating over and over again that "Citizen Kane is the best film ever" and others nodding in agreement with the "experts".

Gorram sheep following the crowd


...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, December 31, 2004 10:21 AM

GUILDSISTER


Quote:

...messages get answered in the same vernacular as the series


Imagine, finding Firefly fans on a bb named "Fireflyfans"! What are the odds? In the vernacular, let's do the math on that. ;-)

While I'm sure quite a few of us have 'alters' to Joss, I suspect very few have altars.

Guildsister

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Friday, December 31, 2004 11:30 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


You go G' Sis! Swing it!

That guy, working electric, he never drank with us!

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Friday, December 31, 2004 11:37 AM

SIMONWHO


Quote:

I think you missed my point somewhat, mate. I obviously wasn't talking about you. I was talking about people who actually reply to messages in character as in the show.



Well, I sometimes reply to messages pretending to be Simon but only because I think it's funny, it's not as though I'm suffering from multiple personality disorder.

I am also not suffering from multiple personality disorder. Me neither.

*be afraid*


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Friday, December 31, 2004 11:42 AM

STATIC


Quote:

Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
Shakespear (although the jokes are better).




Rather than resorting to name-calling or insulting you or anything, I'll simply point out this one thing.


His name was spelled with an "e" at the end.

SHAKESPEARE.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Friday, December 31, 2004 12:10 PM

MOHRSTOUTBEARD


I'm beginning to wonder. . .does the Internet make assholes of all of us sooner or later?

I mean, I just don't understand the concept of going somewhere with the sole purpose of starting up an argument.

"You've just gotta go ahead and change the captain of your brainship, because he's drunk at the wheel."

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Friday, December 31, 2004 12:28 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Just to chime in about the whole 'writing vs acting' thing - most TV shows you can actually just listen to. Get one of those radios that broadcasts TV (TV is in the FM band) and go about your day keeping tabs. Firefly is not like that at all. Yes, it has a plot, characters, and dialogue, courtesy of the author. But you can't just listen to it - it won't make sense. A lot of what happens is the acting going on. I'm sure it's written somewhere in what might be called stage-directions, at the behest of the director, following the script and characters, but still ultimately, a vital portion is the acting.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 1:13 PM

SHADESIREN


wow.. you know, I was truly offended, there, for a second.

I've always said I'm a tiger, not a sheep, but that was mostly to piss off the bible-thumpers who go on about being sheep to J.C.'s Shepherd... J.C.... hey.. Jayne Cobb?? Wow.. whole new thought process there...

Back to my point..

Sheep implies a HUGE following. It also implies following without thought. There's good and bad there. I'm still offended, really, but on another level, if other sheep got into firefly simply on the sheep level, hey, at least it's Firelfy they're getting into, and I could never complain about that. At least it's healthy, smart, etc etc (all you Flans you know what I'm saying).

Still, dude, seriously, this is like a black going into a KKK rally - you KNOW there's going to be trouble, and it's all gonna be aimed at you. (Not a great analogy, on the taste side of things, but it gets the point across.)


And double kudos for the reactions among us browncoats - we're reacting so much more maturely than I'm used to seeing from other fanly types. We're all so shiny :P


as for the vernacular, bite my shiny metal ass, I LIKE how the vernacular sounds, disregarding the source entirely. I haven't learned mandarin at all - I just repeat the swearing stuff cuz I'm a chick, and everyone laughs at me if I swear in english - I'm one of those chicks that just can't. If I swear in mandarin, people don't laugh, they just look at me funny, and I'm used to that. As for shiny, gorram, and such, well, gorram it, it's no wierder than that "fo' shizzle" goushi.

yeah, so I'm a freak.

Deal.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 1:55 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
...
The fact that messages get answered in the same vernacular as the series is (like) so disturbing. Is this a cult now? Do you people have alters to Joss Whedon? I bet many of you have Starfleet uniforms, too...
...


As a person who always looked somewhat skeptically at uber-fans (or maybe I should just use the original word fanatics) it has been slightly disconcerting to find myself turning into one. But that slight hesitation is more than outweighed by the enjoyment of the experience.

I'll just share a few thoughts with you: what works for some people doesn't work for others, anything that brings joy to a person and doesn't have the potential to harm themselves or others should be celebrated, and it's probably not a good idea to peek in your neighbors windows and then make fun of what you saw them doing.

I hope you enjoy the time spent on this board. This is a great, intelligent, creative, diverse, passionate community. For me personally, I can think of far worse, and none better, places to virtually hang out. But if it doesn't float your boat, at least lend out the DVDs and keep working to raise awareness so the movie is a success in September. Success means at least one sequel if not two. That's the bottom line.

[tongue in cheek]
As far as an altar goes... I haven't got around to installing one because I'm having a hard time figuring out what the sacrifice should be. Joss is a hard deity to figure out.

[/tongue in cheek]

---------------------
"What sort of raw meat do you people feed your cruiser captains, Hamish?" - Queen Elizabeth III of Manticore

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Friday, December 31, 2004 1:59 PM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
Quote:

I am also not suffering from multiple personality disorder. Me neither.




Roses are red
violets are blue
I'm schizophrenic
And so am I

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:07 PM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by Shadesiren:
wow.. you know, I was truly offended, there, for a second.

Still, dude, seriously, this is like a black going into a KKK rally - you KNOW there's going to be trouble, and it's all gonna be aimed at you. (Not a great analogy, on the taste side of things, but it gets the point across.)
Quote:



Offensive? A black? A black what? I think that's a great analogy. Sounds like I am in a KKK meeting...

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:14 PM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
...at least lend out the DVDs and keep working to raise awareness so the movie is a success in September. Success means at least one sequel if not two. That's the bottom line.
Quote:




Ah, so there is going to be a movie! Great. Hope one of the studios does decide that a series would be a worthwhile idea lol.

That's one thing I really don't get: They must've made a fortune from Buffy and Angel, so why cut Firefly after only one series? Is it coz there aren't any aliens in it? I can't see any other reason. It's the best sci-fi series in years. Lexx still manages to keep going and that got s**t after series 2!

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:33 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
Ah, so there is going to be a movie! Great. Hope one of the studios does decide that a series would be a worthwhile idea lol.

That's one thing I really don't get: They must've made a fortune from Buffy and Angel, so why cut Firefly after only one series? Is it coz there aren't any aliens in it? I can't see any other reason. It's the best sci-fi series in years. Lexx still manages to keep going and that got s**t after series 2!


Yeah. Universal decided to do one movie and the filming is already completed. Right now they're working on the special effects. They did a test screening a few weeks ago and the response sounded positive. All nine of the original cast appear in the movie (and I think I remember reading that the contracts they signed were for up to three movies). As far as returning to television goes, if things stay the same as they are now that won't happen for a number of years - I think it was ten years. Fox still owns the television rights for Firefly.

There are a number of reasons the original television run of Firefly in the US was not successful. The pilot episode was not aired until the very end of the run. The episodes were aired out of order. The show was in the Friday night slot-of-death. The show was pre-empted for sporting events. Not much advertising was done at all. All of these things added up to viewer numbers that were not at the level Fox was looking for. But it also seems like they made up their mind even before they aired the series that they weren't going to support it. It sounds like they got in a contract with Joss and then just didn't like what they got (they asked him to write a new pilot episode after viewing Serenity with a ridiculous deadline - Joss and his team ended up writing Train Job over a weekend and that's the pilot Fox went with - so all the exposition and setting up of characters that happened over two hours was compressed down into an hour).

Whatever the motivation, the result was that Firefly did not have the viewers that a major network looks for (although I think the viewer numbers were comparable to Buffy or Angel - but I could just be pulling that out of somewhere).

---------------------
"What sort of raw meat do you people feed your cruiser captains, Hamish?" - Queen Elizabeth III of Manticore

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Friday, December 31, 2004 4:00 PM

MALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
*zoid sits in the rowboat on the placid lake, and releases the undersized big-mouthed bass back into its waters, saying, 'Run along home littl'un, and bring back yer Papa.'*




Zoid, he didn't take the bait! What is WRONG with these new-fangled trolls?

Also, as a note to the baby troll, I speak the vernacular here because it's kind of an inside joke amongst us Fireflyers. We have all bonded. So, bite me.

Mal-licious

Co-Holder of the Red Bell from Hell

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Friday, December 31, 2004 4:20 PM

WILDBILL


Magna Carta? Shakespeare? If I'd have wanted schooling, I'd have gone to school.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 4:22 PM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Quote:


[tongue in cheek]
As far as an altar goes... I haven't got around to installing one because I'm having a hard time figuring out what the sacrifice should be. Joss is a hard deity to figure out.

[/tongue in cheek]


SoupCatcher: how sad is it that you feel you have to signal sarcasm?

but myself, I'm in favor of real altars; we could always sacrifice trolls....
of course I'm not saying that AngusThermopyle is necessarily a troll, altho the sheep title to this thread certainly seems antagonistic....

but it is the start of a new year....so...
[sentimentality alert]
May 2005 Bring Peace and Happiness to Browncoats around the World!
love from, Maribeth (embers)
[/sentimentality alert]




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Friday, December 31, 2004 4:43 PM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by wildbill:
Magna Carta? Shakespeare? If I'd have wanted schooling, I'd have gone to school.



See, now that's just plain funny without being freaky...

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 5:03 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Hey, thanks ANGUSTHERMOPYLE for your post - it's been great fun to see the FFF posters prove what I've come to know them for - for their wit and class at dealing with the odd bump in the road. These people are tops.
And yes, tv shows really are tv shows!

That guy, working electric, he never drank with us!

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Friday, December 31, 2004 5:14 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
SoupCatcher: how sad is it that you feel you have to signal sarcasm?


Yeah. It is sad. However, it's one of those behavior changes I chose to make to simplify things. It all stemmed from some message board posting I was doing a couple of years ago (not here) where I would continually see humor, and specifically sarcasm, being taken seriously and resulting in long drawn out arguments before a resolution was reached. Some other posters started using tags to identify humor and that seemed to work out pretty well but I still argued with myself for a long time before I adopted it.


And now I've played around on-line enough today. Time to go to a friends house, throw away my keys, kill some brain cells, and wake up to watch the Rose Parade and clean up.

Happy and Safe New Years to everyone.

---------------------
"What sort of raw meat do you people feed your cruiser captains, Hamish?" - Queen Elizabeth III of Manticore

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Friday, December 31, 2004 5:41 PM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Hey, thanks ANGUSTHERMOPYLE for your post - it's been great fun to see the FFF posters prove what I've come to know them for - for their wit and class at dealing with the odd bump in the road. These people are tops.
And yes, tv shows really are tv shows!

That guy, working electric, he never drank with us!



No probs, mate. I just like to stir things up from time to time, get people a little ornary - whatever the hell that is... I'm British, you know. Ta ta me old china.

Oh yeah, we British never thought James Marsters sounded anything like us. He really does though lol.

Jesus Saves! So why the lack of interest?

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Friday, December 31, 2004 6:50 PM

TERRYO


I had a classic spit-take moment when I read the comment below. Against my better judgment (you know, that whole thing about fanning flames and feeding trolls) I would like to point out that famous actors seek out Shakespearian roles because it validates _their talent_ and a playwright dead for centuries doesn't give a damn about what image the plays have. No one person does - they are part of our common culture.

But no matter how hard all the English teachers and literature professors in the world might try, Shakespeare would have died out long ago if the plays didn't deliver what an audience wants. Sure, it helps to know what an Elizabethan audience might have expected to see, the odd bits make more sense then, but if you think Shakespeare is overrated, then you obviously haven't seen it done right. The angst, the stupidity, the pratfalls, the venality, the rare act of nobility, he nailed the human heart.

If Shakespeare is overrated, why do actors and directors itch to get their chance to interpret him? Ethan Hawke's Hamlet was great (Bill Murray as Polonious, how perfect is that?) but even better if you've seen the other versions. Branagh's epic version was cool but his BBC audio version was better, Mel Gibson and Glenn Close - with its weird incestuous vibe, even the MST3K'd version was fun. And that's just Hamlet. A dozen or more plays keep getting reworked each generation. (And imo, Branagh's Henry V was much better.)

Even Joss doesn't put out a masterpiece every time. :-) Yet, I think he'd settle for that kind of legacy.

Funny, though, I agree that Citizen Kane is overrated. My husband and I watched it and when it was over we just looked at each other. As in, is that all? But then again, at the time it came out, it rocked the movie world. Well, the critic's and future filmmaker's, anyway. So, from the historical p.o.v., it rates up there. But will it be around 400 years from now?

terry (no English degree in sight, just love the words...)

p.s. If you ever get a chance to see a performance of the Shenandoah Shakespeare company ( www.ishakespeare.com) GO. They come to my nowhere Iowa town every year (the local college brings them) and they never fail to take you on a ride that rivals anything you see on a movie screen.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:

The fact is that most of the truly great actors have been cast in Shakespearian plays which has helped raise the image of that work in the public eye more than they would be otherwise, think of Laurence Olivier's version of Henry V for example.

I still maintain Shakespeare is overated. That doesn't mean he wasn't any good just that his plays aren't as good as people continually make out.

In many ways I am reminded of Citizen Kane which is routinely voted best film ever but which is also considered by many critics as a triumph of style over substance. Its continued grasp on the top spot is due to a large degree on people repeating over and over again that "Citizen Kane is the best film ever" and others nodding in agreement with the "experts".

Gorram sheep following the crowd

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First


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Friday, December 31, 2004 7:10 PM

TERRYO


OMG, Hotpoint really touched a nerve - didn't mean to rant about Shakespeare like that. The weird thing is that I do the same thing when it comes to Joss (and Tim and Jane and Drew, well all of ME) and Firefly in general to the uninitiated.

And I haven't even had any champagne to blame it on.

terry (hoping that 2005 ends better than 2004)

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Friday, December 31, 2004 8:07 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Quote:

Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
Firstly, Firefly is a great TV show ... but... IT'S JUST A TV SHOW! It isn't the Magna Carta, or Shakespear (although the jokes are better).

The fact that messages get answered in the same vernacular as the series is (like) so disturbing.



I'm curious, which has better jokes, The Magna Carta or Titus Andronicus? Seriously though, this board is basically a Firefly appreciation club. People who post here do what they can to show their appreciation for the show. Some take it further than others but it's all in fun. I mean the board is named Fireflyfans.net, what would you expect?


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Friday, December 31, 2004 8:58 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by terryo:
- didn't mean to rant about Shakespeare like that.

Sounds good to me. It makes a refreshing change from the ranting about Whedon
Fans, though, may point out that Joss shares your enthusiasm and has been known to trade time on a script for attendance at a weekend Shakespeare read-through.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 9:33 PM

ZOID


Mmmm-a-lishus wrote:
Quote:

Zoid, he didn't take the bait! What is WRONG with these new-fangled trolls?...

Yeah... Either I'm losing my touch, or the lowest common denominator's redshift is still growing.


Disconcertedly,

zoid

P.S.
At least AngusT's subsequent posts are less insultingly dismissive than his first, thanks to others on this board taking the high road. I never can seem to find the on-ramp for that damned road. Check and see if that map is under your seat, Mal...

P.P.S.
Happy '05, Fellow Browncoats!

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Friday, December 31, 2004 11:26 PM

CAPNRAHN


Quote:

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Yeah. It is sad. However, it's one of those behavior changes I chose to make to simplify things. It all stemmed from some message board posting I was doing a couple of years ago (not here) where I would continually see humor, and specifically sarcasm, being taken seriously and resulting in long drawn out arguments before a resolution was reached. Some other posters started using tags to identify humor and that seemed to work out pretty well but I still argued with myself for a long time before I adopted it.

SoupCatcher! Did you post over on the RPF {Replica Prop Forum} years ago?! Sounds VERY like that place when a certain lawyer went spastic ... and if you have never been there - consider yourself blessed!

"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"

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Saturday, January 1, 2005 3:15 AM

MALICIOUS


Zoid,

I, myself, am off on the shoulder of that high road...hood up....white shirt tied to the antennae...hazard lights blinking...as evidenced by the "bite me" comment. (shrug) I just can't help it!

Mal-licious

Co-Holder of the Red Bell from Hell

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Saturday, January 1, 2005 3:21 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by terryo:
I had a classic spit-take moment when I read the comment below.



And my secondary goal of showing that fans of classical literature are in reality just as tetchy and obsessive as SF Fans is achieved

Quote:

Originally posted by terryo:

Against my better judgment (you know, that whole thing about fanning flames and feeding trolls) I would like to point out that famous actors seek out Shakespearian roles because it validates _their talent



I wasn't really trolling I was advocating an unpopular opinion in response to the citation of "Shakespear" by AugustusThermopyle as an apparent example of superior literature.

Quote:

Originally posted by terryo:

But no matter how hard all the English teachers and literature professors in the world might try, Shakespeare would have died out long ago if the plays didn't deliver what an audience wants.



Once again I will reiterate the point that believing Shakespeare is overated is not the same as a holding a strident belief he is bad.

Quote:

Originally posted by terryo:
but if you think Shakespeare is overrated, then you obviously haven't seen it done right. The angst, the stupidity, the pratfalls, the venality, the rare act of nobility, he nailed the human heart.



I've seen Shakespeare performed by the RSC that good enough for you? I see all of the above by the way and I still maintain he is overated.

Quote:

Originally posted by terryo:

If Shakespeare is overrated, why do actors and directors itch to get their chance to interpret him?



Because it has become the yardstick used to measure performances against, actors and directors who wish to be taken seriously are forced to comply with the majority opinion that in order to be respected they must do Shakespeare. There really is a huge element of peer-pressure behind it all, one reason why Patrick Stewarts career so successfully survived Star Trek is that as a "proper actor" who performed Shakespeare on stage he was automatically taken more seriously.

Quote:

Originally posted by terryo:

Funny, though, I agree that Citizen Kane is overrated.



Nice to know we agree on something, besides Firefly or course


...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Saturday, January 1, 2005 4:36 AM

MSCKAREN



Quote:



one reason why Patrick Stewarts career so successfully survived Star Trek is that as a "proper actor" who performed Shakespeare on stage he was automatically taken more seriously.




And I thought all he needed was the British accent.

Besides, if we're going to argue about Shakespeare or Shakespear, please give credit where credit is due. Everybody knows Queen Elizabeth wrote his best stuff!

Now the bigger question is, "What interdimensional demon is giving Whedon all that inside information?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Appears they've canceled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."

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Saturday, January 1, 2005 7:51 AM

TERRYO


And here I thought it was the Earl of Oxford. {ducking and running for cover}

(sigh) Big damn junkies is right. I do believe I might be coming to terms with the fact that there isn't going to be any new Firefly for 9 long months and that I might actually have to get my angst fix somewhere else.

Shakespeare at least has some socially redeeming value - it's the same guilty pleasure without the stigma of having a HL Methos marathon - or rewatching the Blakes 7 finale again.

terry

Quote:

Originally posted by msckaren:


Besides, if we're going to argue about Shakespeare or Shakespear, please give credit where credit is due. Everybody knows Queen Elizabeth wrote his best stuff!

Now the bigger question is, "What interdimensional demon is giving Whedon all that inside information?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Appears they've canceled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."


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Saturday, January 1, 2005 8:57 AM

TERRYO


I'll give you that. {ouch} OTOH, I don't want to waste my precious free time with stuff that doesn't push my obsessive button.

Other than Firefly, what pushes your buttons?

Normal people don't tend to be all that impressed with Joss, either. Joss fans tend to like snappy/snippy dialog and for that you can't beat Shakespeare - well, Shaw and Oscar Wilde can do it, too, but they don't have quite the same range.

I don't have to pretend to like Shakespeare because of peer pressure. Everyone I know gratefully ditched Shakespeare after high school or college. The SF fans actually get more respect around here, even ones with pointy ears or light sabers in tow.

The RSC doesn't impress me much. (Crud, now I have Shania Twain running through my head.) The reason I mentioned the SSE is that most of them are young, enthusiastic actors in love with the material and it shows. There isn't a fake suck-up, stuck-up attitude in any of their productions and again, it shows. The actors have to sell t-shirts after the show for crying out loud. You can't do that without passion.

The truth is that when Shakespeare was alive (no matter who he or she was) he was considered a hack writng trash for the masses. Which is probably why I like it. {g} And if the actors aren't getting that across, then they aren't doing it right. Period.

Or you could be letting anti-elitist snobbery keep you from enjoying it. {g}

I can even agree that there is an element of peer pressure in the entertainment industry but bottom line, it takes love to adapt Shakespeare for film, otherwise it doesn't work. I can think of a few films that cast big names for big names sake and it shows.

If it makes you feel better, I think lots of writers are overrated - Faulkner and Hemingway are two of my pet peeves. And don't get me started on some of the NY Times picks...

terry (who isn't trying to insult any Hemingway fans and feels guilty about sidetracking the thread which actually raised some interesting issues)

Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Quote:

Originally posted by terryo:
I had a classic spit-take moment when I read the comment below.



And my secondary goal of showing that fans of classical literature are in reality just as tetchy and obsessive as SF Fans is achieved

{snipped}

Quote:

Originally posted by terryo:
but if you think Shakespeare is overrated, then you obviously haven't seen it done right. The angst, the stupidity, the pratfalls, the venality, the rare act of nobility, he nailed the human heart.



I've seen Shakespeare performed by the RSC that good enough for you? I see all of the above by the way and I still maintain he is overated.

{more snipping}



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Saturday, January 1, 2005 10:09 AM

TERRYO


So, I'm rereading my latest posts and realized that for me the real point is that if someone thinks Shakespeare is overrated - then what isn't? And that verse must be a cold and black place to live in.

Come to think of it, Mal would probably agree with you.

terry

Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:

Once again I will reiterate the point that believing Shakespeare is overated is not the same as a holding a strident belief he is bad.



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Saturday, January 1, 2005 10:12 AM

GUILDSISTER


Quote:

Guildsister said: While I'm sure quite a few of us have 'alters' to Joss, I suspect very few have altars.


Urp! Uh... I may have to reconsider this statement. You know, just perusing the way I have my dvd collection arranged, and, uh, seven seasons of Buffy lined up next to four of Angel, with the Fireflys... Altar to Joss...? Hmmm... I mean baaaa...



But I don't have Alien Resurrection. So there!

Guildsister

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Saturday, January 1, 2005 2:20 PM

MALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Guildsister:
Quote:

But I don't have Alien Resurrection. So there!



Oh, CRAP! I DO!! I was being all superior, thinking, "I do not have an altar to Joss Whedon" when I actually do. Damnit. I'm a sheep too, I guess. Hey Haken? Can we get us a wooly ewe icon please?

Mal-licious

Co-Holder of the Red Bell from Hell

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