REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why our government is broken

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Sunday, October 9, 2011 14:56
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Monday, October 3, 2011 6:32 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


A very good article, by conservative David Frum: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/26/opinion/frum-broken-government/

Quote:

When Tip O'Neill retired in 1987, he was asked how the quality of people elected to Congress had changed in his 30-plus years of service. The former Speaker of the House answered: "The quality is clearly better, much better." But, he added, "The results are definitely worse."

He meant: as compared to the Congresses of the 1950s, the Congresses of the 1980s contained fewer drunks and fewer crooks. Members were better educated and harder working. Yet the Congresses of the 1950s managed to balance the budget, confirm presidential nominees in reasonable time and enact programs, like the one that created the interstate highway system. The Congresses of the 1980s could do none of those things.

And of course the contemporary record is even worse. This past summer, Congress very nearly pushed the United States into an unnecessary default. Another government shutdown looms. The budgeting of the United States is in chaos. The Federal Reserve has been left for months with two vacancies on its seven-member board because of secret holds by individual senators.

Politics is a contest, limited by certain unwritten rules. And over the past two decades, old rules have broken down.

Under the old rules, there were certain things that political parties did not do -- even though theoretically they could. If one party controlled the Senate and another party controlled the presidency, the Senate party did not reject all the president's nominees. The party that controlled the House did not refuse to schedule votes on the president's budgets. Individual senators did not use secret holds to sway national policy. The filibuster was reserved for rare circumstances -- not as a routine 60-vote requirement on every Senate vote.

It's incredible to look back now on how the Reagan tax cut passed the Democratic House in 1981. The Democratic House leaderships could have refused to schedule votes on Reagan's tax plans. Instead, they not only allowed the tax plan to proceed -- but they allowed 48 of 243 Democrats to break ranks on the key procedural vote without negative consequences to their careers in the Democratic party. (Rep. Dan Glickman of Kansas, for example, who voted for the tax cuts would rise to become Secretary of Agriculture under President Clinton.)

Hard to imagine Speaker John Boehner allowing his Republicans to get away with similar behavior on a measure proposed by President Obama.

What's happening before our eyes is that the US congressional system is adopting the attitudes of a Westminster-style parliamentary system.

In a parliamentary system, "the duty of an opposition is to oppose" (in the famous words of Benjamin Disraeli). The opposition uses every trick and technique to thwart and defeat the government; the government uses all the powers of a parliamentary majority to overwhelm the opposition. (To quote Disraeli again: "a majority is always better than the best repartee.")

Then, at regular intervals, the two sides switch roles.

In the American system, there is no "government" and no "opposition." Who would lead such a "government"? President Obama? Or the man in command of the majority in the lower House -- Prime Minister John Boehner?

In a system built around an administration and a bicameral Congress, everybody is part of the government -- and the government only functions if there exists a certain baseline spirit of cooperation between the mutually indispensable parts.

That spirit of cooperation has tended to vanish in recent years. Back in 1986, Democratic leaders quashed those in their party who wished to try impeach Ronald Reagan over Iran-Contra. But as the Cold War ended, the party struggle intensified. The shock of the economic crisis since 2008 has made things worse still: desperate times lead to desperate politics.

The old rules were based upon certain conditions that have long since vanished.

Back then, Congress was filled with legislators who shared the common bond of military service: in 1981, 73 of the senators were veterans as compared to only 25 today; a similar trend characterizes the House.

The imperatives of the Cold War inspired a spirit of deference to the president.

The long association of the filibuster with opposition to civil rights tended to discredit its use.

The national media were dominated by a few big institutions that professed (even if they did not always deliver) nonpartisanship.

Americans intermingled more with people of different points of view. Bill Bishop points out in his important book, "The Big Sort," in the very close presidential election of 1976, only 26% of Americans lived in a county that went for Gerald Ford or Jimmy Carter by a margin of 20 points or more. In the also close presidential election of 2004, almost 50% of Americans lived in a county that voted by more than 20 points for either George W. Bush or John Kerry.

Perhaps above all: the long prosperity of the postwar years lubricated the system with enough resources that just about everybody could get some of what they wanted: more spending, moderate taxes, reasonable borrowing, strong national defense.

Now instead we have a country that is spatially polarized, that gets its information from highly partisan media, and that confronts the worst recession and the darkest financial outlook since the 1930s.

The results of these changes are breaking the American political system -- destroying public confidence in the U.S. government -- and paralyzing the U.S. economic policy. It will take more than a change in attitudes to address these concerns. It will take fundamental institutional reform.






It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 12:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I would have to disagree with the idea that people back in the day were exposed to more people with different viewpoints. I think now adays we're exposed to so many people in life and there are lots of different ideas about how things should be, for better and for worse. The unfortunate thing though is that I think within the next while things will start homoginizing again, but in different ways than they were before, my theory isn't a popular one because it is the opposite of what many people think. But for now there are lots of ideas out there for people to be exposed to and to choose from.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 3, 2011 12:21 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I think now adays we're exposed to so many people in life and there are lots of different ideas about how things should be, for better and for worse."

It's true people COULD access more - if they chose to. But people tend to restrict their sources to what they already believe in.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:07 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Another good article on this theme - the world envies the British model, with its ability to take executive action in a crisis: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15150162

And apparently Chinese officials are interested in the British parliamentary system, for if/when China becomes a democracy??

Quote:

It's no surprise, then, that Chinese officials considering what a Chinese democracy might ultimately look like are said to be increasingly enthralled by the UK approach. I'm told that the Foreign Office regularly receives requests and visits from the Chinese, wanting to hear more about the "Westminster model".

They see President Obama's Budget announced "dead on arrival" in Congress, and they see our chancellor deliver his Budget to a rapt Parliament, and they know which model would suit them better.



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:16 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Another good article on this theme - the world envies the British model.."

lol

wait, no..

LMFAO..

wait, not good enough...

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

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LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAOLMFAO

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:24 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Read the article, and make a relevant point if you can. I won't hold my breath.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:26 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


KPO, buddy...

Just because you WANT the "world" to envy the British model... doesn't mean it actually does.



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:28 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I still suspect you have no idea what the article was about.

Who said I 'Want the world to envy the British model'?

Before you leave could you edit and break up your long LMFAO string - it messes up the margins of the thread.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:35 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Better?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:40 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Thanks.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:58 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
KPO, buddy...

Just because you WANT the "world" to envy the British model... doesn't mean it actually does.



So explain why there are other governments setup like Britain's but not like ours?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 9:00 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"So explain why there are other governments setup like Britain's but not like ours?"

Colonization?

They got there first?



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 9:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Not... quite. Many of the post-WWII nations adopted more of a parliamentary system, and it's also kind of a european system that grew up from having the aristocracy involved in the votes only now instead of aristocrats and commoners in most places it's a combination of multiple parties.

A parliamentary system does allow some mixing of the ideology and forced bipartisanship, but there are downsides too. I really don't think any of the global socio-economic systems are all that impressive. Write back to me when we eliminate corruption.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 10:50 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Write back to me when we eliminate corruption."

Thought that was part of the reason for the Second Amendment....



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 10:56 AM

BYTEMITE


That punishes corruption, but unfortunately doesn't circumvent it. The corruption still happens and then has to be brought to justice. I'd rather not let anyone have power over anyone else, I figure that's where corruption comes from, when a person has the power to take advantage or deal with other powerplayers behind the back of someone honest.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 11:58 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Anyone who desires to have power.. is inherantly corrupt.

Cops.

Anyone who joins an alphabet soup of an organization.

Politicians.

VERY rarely do you find someone who actually wants power so that they can make things better.

Despite all the hope and change they might promise.





"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Fortunately, many people are not as stupid as, say, Rappy. They know where the problem in Congress is.

That said, I always thought that parliamentary systems were in general more representative. The potential for feedback - you can vote a government out whenever they fail a vote of no-confidence, or if they lose a coalition member - is much faster. It tends to keep them on their toes, to not over-promise in their election campaigns, and to keep to those promises during governance.

Because, you know, people are watching with government's pink slip always in hand.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:15 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Rappy is just as dedicated to his side as you are to yours Kiki.

Neither is perfect, or correct all the time.



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


You think you know what 'my side' is? Tell me.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:23 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Your "side" says that Raps "side" is wrong".

Come on over to the Wulfs "side".




"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:32 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Can't you do any better? After all, if you want to change minds, you have to know what someone is thinking.





Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:34 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Kiki and Raptor are both on the same side really, the "I'm big, you're little. I'm smart, you're dumb. I'm right, you're wrong" side. They're both not very kind individuals, at least on this board they aren't. They both think they're totally correct and that the other side isn't looking at the facts. They both give off an egocentric air, though Kiki comes across as more snotty and Raptor comes across as more arrogant. They've got lots of similarities really.
:)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Except I post facts and Rappy doesn't. That very evident fact seems to have eluded you.

So, have you thought about that question I asked you - have you read any facts, any logic on this website that have changed a belief you hold? And, if the facts of simple reality aren't enough to change a belief, what would be?

BTW - I'm not really expecting or even wanting an answer from you.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 6:07 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Except I post facts and Rappy doesn't. That very evident fact seems to have eluded you.

So, have you thought about that question I asked you - have you read any facts, any logic on this website that have changed a belief you hold? And, if the facts of simple reality aren't enough to change a belief, what would be?

BTW - I'm not really expecting or even wanting an answer from you."


AND Rappy says the same thing. Hell, I say the same thing. So does Frem, Kwick, Geezer, Niki... and on and on and on.

Whats your point? There is enough "evidence", and "truth" and "facts" to back up pretty much everything everyone says around here.

The simple "fact" is, you are NOT always right, everyone else is not always wrong. And vice versa.

Stick around, tho.. and you might learn something... or at least have a greater understanding of things.




"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 7:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You guys are trying to engage Wulf in an adult conversation...you might want to look to that...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 7:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

AND Rappy says the same thing. Hell, I say the same thing. So does Frem, Kwick, Geezer, Niki... and on and on and on. Whats your point? There is enough "evidence", and "truth" and "facts" to back up pretty much everything everyone says around here.
Wulf, Rion, if disagreeing sides are both claiming to be correct, then only one can be correct at any one time. Quite possibly, neither is; but one viewpoint may be more in line with reality than the other. (There really is something "out there" called "reality," by the way. The world doesn't run according to our opinions, no matter how passionately we feel them.) It's up to YOU to figure who's viewpoint is more consistent with reality. That means that you have to do some digging and some thinking for yourself; nobody's going to do it for you.

Wulf, there are often "facts" on both sides of any opinion, but often ONE side has to ignore a whole BUNCH of "facts" in order to keep their opinion whole. It's called "cherry picking", and when you see someone doing it... a lot... then you can guess there isn't a whole lot of evidence on their side.

Another way to tell if someone's opinion is more soundly based is their ability to address objections DIRECTLY. So when someone posts something like "ROTFLMAO", or resorts to name-calling, strawmanning or other rhetorical tricks, then its a good guess that... once again... the data is not on their side.

A third, and very telling way to determine who has the greater understanding is a person's ability to PREDICT THE FUTURE. If someone has a successful model in their head of the real world, which takes into account all of the relevant facts, that person SHOULD be able to predict with greater accuracy what will happen next.

If you stick with the data and are prepared to address ALL of the facts, not just a selected few which fit comfortably into your emotional reactions, then you will be able to understand what's going on.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 8:05 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Whats your point? There is enough "evidence", and "truth" and "facts" to back up pretty much everything everyone says around here.



Many times there seems to be a misunderstanding of what "facts" are on this site.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 5:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, I'm gonna pound on this point a little more, so nobody misses it.

The reason why our government is broken is because people are no longer interested in discerning reality from opinion. People are no longer able to hold reasoned, rational discussions.

What does a rational discussion look like? Well, someone makes a point. Person two counters it with evidence to the contrary or points out a logical inconsistency. First person says, "yes but" and directly counters second person's rebuttal with more encompassing facts. Or perhaps first person even makes a prediction. Or first person modifies their POV to take new data into account.

Nowhere in the discussion does either person totally ignore what the other person says, totally misrepresent what the other is saying, call names, or crow I WIN! I WIN! and bail from the thread. Because that's not a discussion between people trying to learn from each other, that's at least one person (or possibly both) trying to impose her OPINION on others.

I do not value opinions. When someone shows themselves incapable, time and time again, of having a reasoned discussion, I stop trying. I just say "you're being delusional" and I move on.

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 1:52 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Anyone who desires to have power.. is inherantly corrupt.

Cops.

Anyone who joins an alphabet soup of an organization.

Politicians.



Militias.

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 1:57 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
KPO, buddy...

Just because you WANT the "world" to envy the British model... doesn't mean it actually does.





Wulfie, you really don't know what you're talking about. You missed the entire point of the article - it's not saying the world envies the British SOCIETAL system, or its social welfare system, but rather that the world envies the way the government is set up, with parliamentary system and a way to quickly address issues and grievances within that system.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Your "side" says that Raps "side" is wrong".

Come on over to the Wulfs "side".





Which "side" is that? The side that wants to kill all the liberals? The side that wants to shoot black people?

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 5:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree with Kiki's response to Sig's statement:
Quote:

It's true people COULD access more - if they chose to. But people tend to restrict their sources to what they already believe in.


As to the British parliamentary system, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I DO envy it, in many ways. Particularly the "vote of no confidence" thing...imagine if we'd had that when Bush started taking us down the road we're now on? Isn't perfect and I recognize the flaws, but I believe it's preferable to what we have.

I've begun to notice that Raptor comes aboard, gets into all kinds of idiotic flame wars, and Wulf is hardly seen. Then he seems to fade into the background for the most part, and suddenly Wulf's all over the place. Just an observation I've made over recent times, but it does make me wonder. When it comes to "discussing" or "debating" either of them, I continue to wonder along with some others why anyone bothers.

Riona:
Quote:

Kiki and Raptor are both on the same side really, the "I'm big, you're little. I'm smart, you're dumb. I'm right, you're wrong" side.
JUST Kiki and Raptor?

Kiki is right, however:
Quote:

Except I post facts and Rappy doesn't.
You could change that to "except most people post facts; Raptor and Wulf don't" and it would be pretty accurate, too.

Omigawd, Wulf wrote something which isn't total fantasy!
Quote:

Whats your point? There is enough "evidence", and "truth" and "facts" to back up pretty much everything everyone says around here.

The simple "fact" is, you are NOT always right, everyone else is not always wrong. And vice versa.

Although his wording looks more like Raptor would say it. I've had my mind changed, just recently in fact, and other times as well, just to answer the question without being asked.

But Sig is on point with
Quote:

often ONE side has to ignore a whole BUNCH of "facts" in order to keep their opinion whole. It's called "cherry picking", and when you see someone doing it... a lot... then you can guess there isn't a whole lot of evidence on their side.

Another way to tell if someone's opinion is more soundly based is their ability to address objections DIRECTLY. So when someone posts something like "ROTFLMAO", or resorts to name-calling, strawmanning or other rhetorical tricks, then its a good guess that... once again... the data is not on their side.



Sig, I agree with what you said about discussion, but I would replace "discussion" with "debate", and that's precisely how it works. To me, "discussion" is "hey, did you see that new movie? I thought it was awesome!", "Yeah, I thought it was pretty cool, too; I love (insert actor) and the writing was terrific!"

The concept of having a debate with either Wulf or Raptor (or Geezer, as I realized recently) is pretty much fantasy to me. look at everything Wulf posted in this thread (except for the bit about facts); does ANY of it constitute "rational debate"...or even "discussion"?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, October 9, 2011 2:56 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


And that is where we run into disagreement, there are so many ideas about what a "fact" is. I can say that the earth is round. Kiki can say "Well actually the earth is spherical, that's not the same." Which one of us is right? Are we both right? Yes we're both right, I'm just using that as an example because some people around here play the pedant, some people think that a string of data is a fact when often a string of data is an observation and one can't prove causal fact from it without more info. Sometimes things that I view as facts are things that Signe would scoff at and call dillusional.

When one side brags about their fact giving prowess and says that the other side _never gives facts or that the "facts" that the other side gives don't count for some reason then I sort of tune out because I start thinking certain things about certain people that aren't productive to the thread or to my amicable relations with them.

Now I'm not saying that Raptor is a treasure trove of facts, but I'm just saying that people like to slag on each other more than they like to try and understand where each other is coming from. I don't agree with Niki about some things, but I try to understand where she's coming from on them, we've written notes to each other before trying to understand each other's perspectives on things. I like Niki even though we don't always agree on things politically or morally. There is no reason that our lack of agreement about certain things keeps us from respecting each other as kind human beings.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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