Study: Environmental Factors May Be Just as Important as Genes in Autism by THEHAPPYTRADER

...Obvious?

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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 6:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
...Obvious?

Lol, psychology is often all about the 'obvious' which does often enough turn out to be true, but not always.

I was hoping to spark a thoughtful discussion, but I think most RWED'ers would rather post at someone they disagree with so that they can critize them for not responding or for responding in their own defense in a discussion they've declared a waste of time.

I appreciate the bump though. Do you have any theories or expieriances concerning those within the Autistic spectrum you would like to share?

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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 6:57 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think that scientifically viable studies are good things and that the more we learn about things the better we can be at making things the best they can be for everyone. More studies about autism are a good thing.

As for behavior modification "fixing" aspirgers I can't say I totally agree, however I do believe, more than most people it seems, that children are very adaptable and that a portion of them may be able to "grow out of" certain types of autism with the right assistance and tools. Can they all? No. But I suspect that some can, as with any condition that children have that seems to change in age with some cases.

But I imagine that the majority don't grow out of it, sure they improve, at least a good number of them can and do, but growing out of it? That is less common, though possible as I said above in certain situations.

My neighbor, 19, has aspirgers, it was pretty evident to us early on (I've known her since she was born, we babysat her a lot when she was tiny) that something was quite different about her. It took them forever to figure out what it was but it made perfect sense when they did figure it out. She just finished her first year at college, lived at school (in our city) and managed that fine, got good grades as she always does. But didn't really make any friends, at least none that were beyond the basic saying hello and talking for a minute. She is socially inept, even I find her company tiresome, though I feel bad saying that out loud. The question with her is how much of that is the aspirgers and how much is the fact that her parents never taught her how to behave, never made her obey rules, never modeled positive social behaviors (her mom is way too self centered and her dad can be a turd and loves to criticize everyone about everything). She's annoying, she is most definitely not touched. I don't think I'll ever know because, as this article says, so much of life is wound up in both environment and genetics.

I think womb environment is something that should be looked into as much as possible, because I don't think we should look to mean or foolish parents as "causing" or "bringing out" autism, plenty of kids with good parents get it, so I think womb would be a more promising place to look further into.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 7:59 PM

Well, as I say, Genetics loads the gun, Environment pulls the trigger.
Bear with me here, this is gonna be more complex that I'd hoped, but it's the only way I can really explain this.

I am not quite as familiar with "Aspergers" specifically - in fact while I suppose it could be helpful in some clinical sense to categorize the symptoms, I see Autism as a wide spectrum of potential problems, not all of which can be, or even necessarily are, present in any specific individual.

I also very much prefer to hold a very clear line of definition between genetic factors and conditioned behavior, especially cause of my views on when medication is and is not appropriate, you see.

For example: from an external viewpoint, someone who was born with these misfires and someone who has aquired an aversion to humans and their society from conditioning, abuse and neglect - they might come across as both suffering the same disorder, especially to a harried GP or pediatrician who's doing a quick diagnosis, often under pressure to "find" that specific disorder, for whatever reason - which kinda pre-loads the diagnosis.
(I run into that more often than you do, I suspect, cause apparently your clients have decent insurance)

So, on first glance, they SEEM the same - but on longer, more careful observation, the differences begin to show, specifically within consistency of behavior, cause in one case it's all but hard-wired, and in the other it's simply the path of least resistance.
(Although, from Perrys work, at an early enough point, and over enough time, the latter can BECOME the former - see "how states become traits" for more info there)
Thus a conditioned response can be determined from a hardwired one - and while the action itself may be the same, what's going on in between the childs ears in either case is in fact radically different, and any medication solution SHOULD take that into account, which sadly it often does not...

Consider it like this - you poke a person, they shy back, right ?
Person one does so because they're in pain, that HURTS.
Person two does so because they're afraid of you.
You don't give them both a painkiller, do you ?

Similar to that - although I'm not sure how well imma get this across.

Anyhow, the study doesn't seem to differentiate between Autism symptoms caused by conditioning and behavioral influences, and those caused by neural misfire, something I think desperately important cause even so it's not necessarily an either/or kind of thing - often as not BOTH are present, but you also have cases where it is specifically one or the other, and it's absolutely CRUCIAL to have a proper, specific, diagnosis and assessment, including a behavioral study, before one proceeds with treatment, something not done nearly as often as we should, and certainly not as often as I'd like.

And so we come to this, which I do believe you have a point to, though not in the way you might think.

Quote:
Originally posted by THEHAPPYTRADER:
I've also heard that Risch believes Aspergers is a subtle psychological adaptation to a more hectic world. I'm still learning, still fairly new to this field, but considering that every Asperger child I've worked with was mostly just a behavioral modification case, I think that may be plausible.

Very much so.

See, originally I thought there must be something seriously wrong with human genetics, given the sheer amount of Sociopaths present in my school system, especially later on when I wound up in the second-chance schools for the behaviorally screwballs(1) although I didn't know at the time that particular one was deliberately selecting for it - but at some point I noticed these key, critical differences between the Sociopath Alphas and Betas, as the latter were EMULATING the successful behavior of the Alphas, in a reactive, rather than proactive, fashion.
That these people were the most liked, most successful, most rewarded in our society both then and later on, is something we'll discuss another time - cause I get foamy at the chops about that, I do...

But I realized that they were *NOT* Sociopaths, most of em, but rather simply conditioning themselves to be via emulating the most successful members of that society - and I wrote a paper on this, "Learned Sociopathy as a Defense Mechanism" - to say it was less than well received was an understatement, in fact the response was so overwhelmingly extreme, considering it was presented as mild speculation, that it convinced me I was onto something... much in the same fashion that his associates rabidly flaming Deism caused Benjamin Franklin to start thinking there was something to it.(2)
Which caused me to examine the mechanicisms by which we create Learned Sociopaths, and just how deliberate and intentional they are - look at so many of our social-media-entertainment "Heros", and note just how often it's the Socipath who's behavior is lauded, versus the altruistic being seen as weak, foolish and stupid ?
Consider the level and degree of that conditioning, from cradle to grave, everywhere we look and listen ?
And yet there are those who for reasons I still don't completely understand - react the other way, who's natural response to "common knowledge" and this-is-the-way-things-are, is "Bullshit!", contrarians who choose to SPITE such a system by being decent even when it buys them nothing, or brings hassle and misery unto them.
Most do not survive.
Anyhows, somewhere in there it became pretty damn clear that 90% of the Sociopaths I was encountering, that shit was LEARNED BEHAVIOR, not genetic misfire, and thus changed my viewpoint of humanity as a whole from something that needed to die (I was, at one time, a Nuke-worshipping Nihilist) to a more Rosseau-Kropotkinist view of our amazing potential as a species, if we could only quit trying so hard to grind it out.

Which brings us back around to your consideration that some of what you are encountering is in fact, learned behavior - something I think is ENTIRELY possible, because of our "HEY LOOK, LOOK HERE, LOOK THERE, HEY PAY ATTENTION!" world, which has gotten almost psychotic in it's efforts to grab your attention and pin it to things, be it media distractions, advertisements, or what have you, but in that it's forceful attempts to TAKE your attention from where you will it to be and stick it where someone ELSE thinks it should be....

Yeah, I do think that exposure to that, over time, particularly if falling for that sucker play has actually caused trauma, can indeed create a defensive mechanism of this type.
Hell, for mine own I actually become strongly annoyed by bullshit like flashy-spinny flash/Active-X crap, overlay scripts, banner ads, pop-ups and all that nastiness on the internet, which is why I use a "combat" browser which actively seeks out and kills off ALL that shit before it displays the URL content...
But that's nothing compared to my ire when someone takes it offline with jackassery like Flasy-Spinny billboards(3), Audio-Visual advert harrassments at the gas pump, grocery store, and so on and so forth.
(I've gone so far as to start cutting the power leads of some of these damn things when no one is looking)
That captive-audience hasslement has gone way too damn far, IMHO.

And don't deny it, YOUR reaction to that rant was "Yeah!" - so you can even see EXACTLY where that particular reflex might develop in a young child, bombarded by information they do not want, which serves no purpose but to annoy or even potentially harm them, to where they start shutting it out in order to focus on what serves THEIR will, and in its extremes can thus manifest as autism-like symptoms, sure.

Which is what Byte summed up in a single word, although it wouldn't really be to a lot of folk, cause not everyone's a little Sparky there, doll.

Which is prolly a GOOD thing, meh heh heh.

Anyhows, that answer your question ?
And provided I have the time (took a day off today) I can definately discuss this down to the microscopic, if ya like, heh - sure beats flamewars, this is true.

-Frem
(1) Said school was looking for potential military recruits with no conscience for specific reasons.
(2)

Quote:
My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the Dissenting way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of the Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of the sermons which had been preached at Boyle’s Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them. For the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to be much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.
-Ben Franklin

(3) Those things are a fekkin hazard, EVERY time I pass one, some moron with a short attention span winds up taken in by it and wandering into MY lane, and there's a *lot* of accidents on that stretch of I-275 South, most of em right about that spot.

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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 8:37 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

It does bother me that we are creating this super short attention spanned generation that can't focus on anything, and then they are penalized for it, does that seem right to you?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 11:33 PM

sorry, what was that you were saying?

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 12:12 AM

The behavioral therapy isn't about 'fixing' these children, it is about helping them adjust enough to function in society. It's based off of positive reinforcement and modeling positive social behaviors. Some children need more help adjusting than others.

For example, there is the child who's primary issue is elopement (runs away to escape a situation). He get's frustrated with a person or loses a game or something and he just takes off running, somewhere, anywhere without thinking of where he is going. Maybe that doesn't seem so bad, but consider this. Earlier this year he went to New York for the first time to visit his grandmother for the first time, got frustrated with another grandchild and took off running getting lost in the city. I don't think it's cruel or unusual that we are working on preventing that behavior and replacing it with a socially acceptable means of requesting 'escape' from a situation. This isn't just for our convenience, it's for the child's own safety and well being.

He may always need 'escape' but we can teach him to take a deep breath and count to 5 or 10 as needed before returning to a situation.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 5:51 AM

Ah, got yourself a bolter, eh ?
Have you tried "establishing base" ?

Try setting up a specific location for them to flee TO, with a certain no-cross radius around it, as a start - their fortress/sanctuary, of a sort.
(Which MUST be respected, save in the direst of emergencies or there's no point, it defeats the whole purpose and turns it into an abusive sham)

Now, this'll take time and patience, cause once you do that they'll retreat there almost immediately, like a turtle into its shell - sure, but here's the thing...
Humans are social creatures, even the Autistic, and while it will take a little longer than for most normals, they *will* get lonely, how quickly depends in part on age, gender and other factors, but they most certainly will, and the first sign of this is when they start coming to the edge of it to watch, maybe talk.
At which point you contrive to be doing something further away than is convenient for speaking distance, but (apparently) requires a lot of attention, and they'll slowly but surely gravitate in your direction.
(According to Mikey, something similar works well with skittish puppies, too, interestingly enough.)

Once they get close, ask them to assist you, and this gives them a more hands-on focus to divert their attention from the proximity to other people that causes the reaction in question.

Over time, the sanctuary radius can be gradually reduced, and once the notion has been established, there's also that the "flag" can be moved for travel or other situations - we used a small landscaping flag and simple-stick tape for this, since visual cues are very helpful when dealing with kids with these issues, especially at first.

And yeah "Fixed" is a freakin pipe-dream, there's really no such thing as "normal" anyway, so it's all about being able to function effectively enough to participate in human society.

For many of the servely affected though, that's going to mean doing so on their own terms as much as possible - one way we dealt with this, as well as the desperate need for structure and predictability in kids that have been mistreated, neglected, and exposed to chaotic environs, was by scripting common interactions, and a yes/no kind of flow to them, so as to minimize any confusion (and this next part is gonna sound WEIRD to anyone who hasn't dealt with Autistic folk) and offer an almost ritual-like predictability which gave them a feeling of security when dealing with others, because it removed so much of the uncertainty of things.

Case Example:

NEED/CHAIR
"There is a chair here, is anyone using it ?"

IF/NO
"No one is using it, so that is now your chair."

IF/YES
"Yes, that is my chair, let me help you find a chair."

WHEN/FINISHED
"I am finished using this chair, does anyone else want to use it ?"

Which, of course, prolly doesn't make sense to normals, but I hope you get where I am coming from on that one, Happy.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 6:10 AM

MALACHITE

Frem said: "Ah, got yourself a bolter, eh ?
Have you tried "establishing base" ?

Try setting up a specific location for them to flee TO, with a certain no-cross radius around it, as a start - their fortress/sanctuary, of a sort.
(Which MUST be respected, save in the direst of emergencies or there's no point, it defeats the whole purpose and turns it into an abusive sham)"

This is an interesting idea! Is this from a specific behavioral therapy manual, or is this something learned from experience? If from experience, you should combine it with other interventions you've found helpful and write a book!

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 6:44 AM

Mala, almost everything I know about this, I learned the hard way, often in much the fashion of trying to negotiate a minefield in the dark cause NO official source would assist or affiliate with us whatsoever, although admittedly some of them did have respectable reasons.

In fact I had no intention initially beyond extricating them from the bad situation - but as I noted before with Iatrogenic Psychologies, folks who have been abused with the complicity or direct involvement of conventional mental health personnel CAN NOT be treated by them, and the act of yoinking them out of hell created the only trust-bond strong enough to allow someone to help them, and thus that *had* to me, however incompetent I was at it to begin with.

I have written a bunch of stuff on this, under assumed names, but more often for actual useful things, simply fed it to already acknowledged people with a much wider potential audience - I don't care about credits or attribution, I just want the information out there, you know ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 7:11 AM

MALACHITE

Yeah, I figured it was experience talking. It would be great to see it all concisely organized in book form, though...

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 7:26 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Happy, what you are doing makes perfect sense and is good.

Frem, your scripting makes a lot of sense, I've seen that be helpful with little ones with autism, the like predictability and routine and stability.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 9:22 AM

Sorry, Happy, not a lot of experience. I only know vagueries about trends I've heard of, which would support the premise in your original post. But yeah, looks like you're getting lots of help from people who are in the know.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 3:56 PM

Always appreciate the opportunity to learn from the experiences of others.

The child in question does return to his 'sanctuary' (his room) at home and desires 'escape' more often when his sister is around. I can relate, sister's can be annoying at that age and the aspergers isn't doing him any favors. We're focusing on replacement skills such as requesting a break, taking a 30 second walk away from the situation and returning, because it is infinitely more portable, but also means he has to return and take responsibility for his actions.

In addition to aspergers, he has also been diagnosed with ADHD, so lessons learned have to have immediate consequences so he can make the connection. He made me proud today though, he appropriately requested a short break TWICE in one session! More often than not he just flips out and throws something, engages in aggression towards others, self injurious behavior or runs away. I think it helped that his sister was out of the house at the time. The kid has a serious ego and cannot be 'wrong' about anything if his sister is nearby.

I've also been incorporating music lessons into the therapy. He wasn't so fond of the trumpet, probably because he couldn't just pick it up and immediately get desired results, but he is excelling at simple rhythm reading and making his own rhythms. I've started bringing some sticks and a drum pad so we practice making rhythmic songs and playing them. That's one very nice thing about percussion, you hit something it makes a sound. Immediate results!

EDIT: Frem, most of what you've said does make perfect sense to me and we utilize many of the same or similar methods. Pretty much everything I've learned so far as been on the job and from asking the BCBA's who write the behavior plan we base our sessions on and act as our resource for questions and such. At first I was worried that my relative inexperience would make me unqualified but the BCBA said that the children are very receptive to me, which is a huge advantage in behavior therapy and not quite as 'teachable' as the various techniques I've been acquiring over time.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 4:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
The behavioral therapy isn't about 'fixing' these children, it is about helping them adjust enough to function in society. It's based off of positive reinforcement and modeling positive social behaviors. Some children need more help adjusting than others.

For example, there is the child who's primary issue is elopement (runs away to escape a situation). He get's frustrated with a person or loses a game or something and he just takes off running, somewhere, anywhere without thinking of where he is going. Maybe that doesn't seem so bad, but consider this. Earlier this year he went to New York for the first time to visit his grandmother for the first time, got frustrated with another grandchild and took off running getting lost in the city. I don't think it's cruel or unusual that we are working on preventing that behavior and replacing it with a socially acceptable means of requesting 'escape' from a situation. This isn't just for our convenience, it's for the child's own safety and well being.

He may always need 'escape' but we can teach him to take a deep breath and count to 5 or 10 as needed before returning to a situation.

My son was at school with a child like this. We'd see him bolting down the road quite commonly.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 5:28 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:

I was hoping to spark a thoughtful discussion, but I think most RWED'ers would rather post at someone they disagree with so that they can critize them for not responding or for responding in their own defense in a discussion they've declared a waste of time.

I appreciate the bump though. Do you have any theories or expieriances concerning those within the Autistic spectrum you would like to share?

I'm game. My sis-in-law (the diagnostician) keeps trying to test me for Asperger's/Autism-spectrum signs, and I keep messing up her tests by pointing out the patterns in them and then yanking her chain by guiding the answers whichever way I say I will.

It's not that I don't believe in her tests; I just don't see that knowing (or being diagnosed with, anyway) I have Asperger's really changes my life in any appreciable way. When I first heard someone running down the list of symptoms and behaviors, I was listening to it on the radio, and my reaction was, "Well, that certainly explains a lot..."

I mentioned it to my wife, who mentioned it to her sister (the diagnostician I referred to earlier), who then wanted to sit me down for some quick tests. I pinged 36 of 37 answers consistent with Asperger's, according to her, and I told her which one I disagreed with, as well as the fact that four of her questions were repeated with subtly different wording, and two of them were repeated TWICE.

I come from a military family, too. Born at Fort Meade, Maryland a couple months before the Cuban Missile Crisis blew up (or DIDN'T blow up, but came damned close). My dad was detailed to the NSA then as a cypher guy/codebreaker.

I figured it just ran in the family...

Seriously, I have no explanation for it, and no theories for it. I'm nearly 50, and had never really heard of Asperger's until a couple years ago. I was just relieved to know that the fluorescent lights really ARE flickering, because nobody ever believed me about that! It's worse when I'm stressed, and it's noticeable enough that as a child I thought maybe *I* was causing THEM to flicker, not that I was just noticing something that was always there.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 5:40 PM

Is seeing flouro lights flickering an indicator? Yikes. I see them too.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 5:41 PM

Quote:
As for behavior modification "fixing" aspirgers I can't say I totally agree, however I do believe, more than most people it seems, that children are very adaptable and that a portion of them may be able to "grow out of" certain types of autism with the right assistance and tools. Can they all? No. But I suspect that some can, as with any condition that children have that seems to change in age with some cases.

I somewhat agree. I don't think the idea is to "fix" these people, as much as it is to just get them to recognize and deal with the symptoms and signs.

I'm much more able to catch myself now doing certain behaviors (others I'm sure I'm still blind to), and can alert myself - "You're doing it again. You know why you do this, and you know you don't have to." It's not "normal", but it's not "abnormal" either. It just is. People at work will throw numbers at me while holding their calculators, and I'll toss the answers back before they can finish inputting their numbers in their devices. But that's simple math, really; I get lost on the tough stuff. Half the time I don't even stop what I'm doing to think about it.

Some of it is quite handy. Knowing the item numbers of every product I carry, knowing states by ZIP codes, spotting sales trends by item or geographic area, etc.

So I wouldn't want to "fix" these folks - especially not the Asperger's kids - but I'd want to try to help them realize how much of a gift they've got, and some of the ways it gives them a competitive advantage. I mean, really, can you imagine someone with Asperger's/Autism sitting in a room coding software? (Of course you can! It likely happens more often than you'd believe!)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 5:44 PM

Quote:
I've also been incorporating music lessons into the therapy. He wasn't so fond of the trumpet, probably because he couldn't just pick it up and immediately get desired results, but he is excelling at simple rhythm reading and making his own rhythms. I've started bringing some sticks and a drum pad so we practice making rhythmic songs and playing them. That's one very nice thing about percussion, you hit something it makes a sound. Immediate results!

Good - music seems to be an amazing bridge in almost every autism/Asperger's case I've heard about. It's soothing, flowing, but it's also mathematical, so it relaxes the brain AND engages it at the same time.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 6:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Is seeing flouro lights flickering an indicator? Yikes. I see them too.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=16&gs_id=60&xhr=t&q=asperger's+fluores
cent+lights&qe=YXNwZXJnZXIncyBmbHVvcg&qesig=74uWIzrZU4Y4byN7x4y7rA&pkc=AFgZ2tnwbX1A-RGIvZSLQY0Xs7IdPwgJjGYuxrjyHE1lhu7tXyukGoDT-GLX2EbLDmkb6rsZb-8VC10Zood2t5zfRTcHfbD7Pw&pf=p&sclient=psy&safe=off&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=asperger's+fluor&aq=0j&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9a0c6f3ce62500b5&biw=826&bih=465

Quick google search on "asperger's fluorescent lights" shows that it's not just you and me, dear.

And that's okay.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 6:15 PM

That was interesting, because the first couple of sites I visited were Australian, and as yet, not mention of flouros. I actually thought everyone could see them flicker. Guess it just never came up in conversation before.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 6:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
That was interesting, because the first couple of sites I visited were Australian, and as yet, not mention of flouros. I actually thought everyone could see them flicker. Guess it just never came up in conversation before.

Yeah, it never really came up for me, either, until I heard a podcast on Asperger's. But yeah, when I'm feeling stressed, I definitely notice it far more, and it's far more distracting and annoying to me at those times.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 6:29 PM

Oh, and Happy?

When you're dealing with kids and parents and working through this stuff, try putting a positive spin on it as much as possible. (I know you generally seem pretty positive anyway, just saying...)

For instance, I don't view the idea of Asperger's as a "disability"; I view it as my super-power. Whatever it is, it's a big part of what makes me, ME. When you can find these kids' power center, you can show them that this isn't a thing that makes them any kind of "freak" - it's a thing that can be nurtured and worked with and developed into an amazing talent!

Some of the AD/HD stuff you referred to might just be a matter of not having found the thing that really grabs a particular person's interests at the moment. When I get into something, I tend to get DEEPLY into it. I'm that guy who was buying up Honda factory manuals on eBay and poring over them to figure out the best individual gear ratios for every situation, and who then put it into practice by building hybrid custom-geared transmissions to beat the competition.

The weirdest things will grab me sometimes, and I'll get deeply into them for quite a while... and then I'm done with 'em. It's like my brain goes, "Okay, learned all I can about THAT. What's next?"

The "key" isn't so much about genetics or environment as to what CAUSES it, but rather how do you engage this person fully, and get them to fulfill their potential while at the same time figuring out how to engage them more with the wider world. Music is a good start, and patterns and math are generally interesting as well.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 7:10 PM

I see the flickering too. And on certain visual displays. And I have exaggerated reflex actions in response to movement in my peripheral vision. And long persistent noises have a tendency to resonate in a kind of uncomfortable way. Don't get me started on vocal conversations. Inability to identify with some commonly recognized "normal" human behaviours. Inability to properly emote IRL. Flagrant disregard for etiquette and expected roles. Slight preoccupation with even numbers in writing, preference for stacked items to be in odd numbers. Geometric patterns are distracting and constantly "shooting lines." Other eccentricities. ...social awkwardness.

Other than that, no symptoms. Without a measureable impact on quality of life or function, diagnosis is inconclusive. I have bigger problems.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 7:15 PM

It's interesting, whenever I've looked up the characteristics of aspergers, I usually think - that is ridiculous, there is nothing extraordinary in these symptoms, all the males in my family AND my husband's family are like that, and my son of course.

Oh dear.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 7:29 PM

Yeah, totally. The program is based almost exclusively off of positive reinforcement. There are very few exceptions, but even when a 'punishment' of sorts is required, it is quickly followed up with positive reinforcement as soon as the desired behavior happens.

I've wondered if I weren't mildly Aspergers before as well, based off of how difficult social interaction was for me until halfway through college. I've always felt I was a more visual person and I always noticed the flickering fluorescent lights, that soft high pitched sound the TV's in school would make when they were turned on but still had a blank screen and other things, but odds are I was just shy and perceptive. Also, humans in general are more visual and concrete thinkers and learners, abstract concepts are a little harder for everyone.

As for the ladies, while it is possible for a female to be Autistic or within the Autistic spectrum, it is statistically very rare when compared to males. I only know of one Autistic girl our company does therapy with, and aside from the PIKA, you would think she was a normal little girl, only a little clumsy.

On a slightly unrelated note, PIKA (eats or swallows things not food, like rocks, crayons, coins or an one nerve-wracking case, a battery) and ADHD are are other common disorders found with many of the Autistic children we work with. I wonder if that is significant, or just the 'luck of the draw.'

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 8:36 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

" preference for stacked items to be in odd numbers "

I prefer evens myself. It's an odd little tick that gotten even stronger over the years.

You all might be interested in this: the highly sensitive person test http://www.hsperson.com/pages/test.htm . (For the record I am on the extreme end of the sensitive person scale.) There does seem to be a biological component to this measure.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 9:22 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I'm that guy who was buying up Honda factory manuals on eBay and poring over them to figure out the best individual gear ratios for every situation ..."

Decades ago I had the opportunity to get in on the ground floor with computers - with no experience I was offered a programming job and a wide open future - and I walked away. At that time I realized I would have to dive in head first, that I could do it, but that I would never surface again.

I don't have anything like Asperger's, but I do have ADD and a basic issue with visual processing. Even as a young child I always wondered how people did what they did - how they could just glance at something and know what it was, whereas I have to look at something for a long time to 'get' what it is. And I always wondered how people could be satisfied doing ANYthing for more than a minute or two. How could they not be bored?

I don't agree that a difference is always a strength in disguise. Having a basic part of you not function can be quite stressful as assorted compensatory areas that aren't really built for the task are pressed into service to, somehow, cobble together a function that is sort-of like normal - but not really. And a little slow and cranky and requiring a large amount of effort as it grinds along.

After all these decades, I am just realizing that people do things automatically in the background - like keep track of interactions and conversations and tasks and schedules and thoughts - that I do laboriously, formally, and quite often on paper - if I am to do them at all.

And though it caused me a great deal of grief when I was younger, I'm not complaining (though it sounds like it). Because I am smart enough to compensate well enough to be very well paid. But I do know others with challenges, and they aren't so lucky in our economy that gobbles people into it voracious maw.

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 9:25 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

BTW - all of you who see the lights flicker - brown eyes or blue?

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 11:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
" preference for stacked items to be in odd numbers "

I prefer evens myself. It's an odd little tick that gotten even stronger over the years.

You all might be interested in this: the highly sensitive person test http://www.hsperson.com/pages/test.htm . (For the record I am on the extreme end of the sensitive person scale.) There does seem to be a biological component to this measure.

Both me and my son rated highly sensitive. No surprises there. I wish his teachers could see (and understand) this. Reacts to gentle correction rather than strong punishment. Duh. Who doesn't?

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Thursday, July 7, 2011 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
BTW - all of you who see the lights flicker - brown eyes or blue?

hazel. does it make a difference?

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Friday, July 8, 2011 1:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
BTW - all of you who see the lights flicker - brown eyes or blue?

Green.

Stacks of things should be evens - and more importantly, the stacks should be the same level as other stacks.

For some reason, I have a "thing" about alloy wheels on cars - they have to have an odd number of spokes. For instance, THIS:

is far more aesthetically pleasing to me than this:

And I can't explain why. It just IS.

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Friday, July 8, 2011 4:15 AM

I'm not sure what mine are called, it says Hazel on the drivers license but think Hazel is supposed to shift from brown to green and mine usually stick closer to blue, and appear to change with what I am wearing.

This is a little hard to describe on account of being red green color blind, and it looks to me almost like a backwards rainbow starting from the center. They seem to be dark (brown possibly?) in the very center, with what appears to be a greenish greyish goldish mesh surrounding the brown and past that the rest and majority of the eye is blue. Usually the blue is the most prominent but sometimes under the right lighting they can appear Grey or green.

About to be gone for a few days, maybe if this thread is still going I'll post a picture and let the not colorblind decide.

Oh, and this isn't a snark, but there is no such thing as ADD. It's called Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). It's a common mistake that is highly prevalent in our language.

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Friday, July 8, 2011 6:37 AM

Oh yes, forgot the PIKA.

Blue.

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Friday, July 8, 2011 8:30 AM

Happy

Quote:
The child in question does return to his 'sanctuary' (his room) at home and desires 'escape' more often when his sister is around. I can relate, sister's can be annoying at that age and the aspergers isn't doing him any favors.

*Laughs*
Oh yes, sisters, especially kid sisters, seem to be natures answer to thinking you're important.

Of course, conversely, brothers, especially big brothers, seem to be natures answer to sisters thinking they're so special either, so it kinda balances out - of course, if anyone *ELSE* picks on em, said brother will be the first to wring some necks... kinship is weird, innit ?

Quote:
I think it helped that his sister was out of the house at the time. The kid has a serious ego and cannot be 'wrong' about anything if his sister is nearby.

Oh IN-DEED!, in part cause you KNOW she'll never let him hear the end of it - sisters are like that.

Also, see above, lol.

Quote:
I've started bringing some sticks and a drum pad so we practice making rhythmic songs and playing them. That's one very nice thing about percussion, you hit something it makes a sound. Immediate results!

Ah yes, drums, the instant gratification of the music world...

There's a novelette by a personal friend called "Hammer Song" which might interest you, in which a Blacksmith finds within the "music" of the rythyms of the forge a special kind of magic, I've been harping on him to flesh it out as a full on book, since the anthology it was originally published in, "Blood and Devotion" kinda sucked overall in quality - I think you would enjoy the story immensely.
(Personal amusement note: said writer is a Paladin-mentality, versus my Evil-Overlord mentality and we tend to get completely weirded out on how common it is for us to arrive at the exact same conclusion from opposite ends of the moral spectrum - the composite dichotomy-similarity-polarity thing)

Quote:
At first I was worried that my relative inexperience would make me unqualified but the BCBA said that the children are very receptive to me, which is a huge advantage in behavior therapy and not quite as 'teachable' as the various techniques I've been acquiring over time.

Tsk, you have THE most important qualification there is, had it to begin with, in that you CARE enough to try, that you are willing to take that first step, make the emotional investment which is all-but-required for this sorta thing to even work - that was prolly easier for you than me, since you meant to do it from the get-go and I did not...
Once you do have that level of bonding, it does allow options a more hands-off, unattached approach would not.
Especially since, provided they care about YOU, children are much more forgiving of your flaws and failures than adults are - that was kind of a major saving grace in that whole working through a minefield in the dark method of learning these things.
That's something us adults can, and should, learn from them.

Mikey

Quote:
I come from a military family, too.

Oh... shit.
Small freakin world indeed - provided he stuck around long enough, I mighta known your dad, or at least some of his co-workers, cause I *did* know all the crypto guys at Meade from the mid-80's till about a decade after, since us black shack ISA bastards tended to run in the same circle both social and professional - I almost wound up dating one of the civvie contractors involved in all that, but gave it a miss cause my exit plan would have left her kind of swinging in the breeze and I cared about her too much to do that.
In fact, since the actual father is a pyscho and also one of "them", I "took the fall" as the suspected father of her second child despite never having been anything but friends, in order to keep the crazy bastard out of her life, and prevent her and her offspring from being dragged any deeper into the cesspool of that world.

As for the rest, for me, the jury's still out on whether "Aspergers" is a valid diagnosis as opposed to a medical catchall for "We have no idea" - something brought even more to my attention during my recent illness as Gomm-Button/Sweet's syndrome also seems to be much the same in respect to medical jargon saying "We don't bloody know!"....
I mean, I suppose it can be useful to have a baseline category, but it incorporates so many possibilities that of itself you can't USE it - you can't just say "Oh, this is Aspergers" and treat it, cause each case is so individualised beyond that and needs further, in-depth diagnosis - so while useful perhaps as a starting point to know where to look, of ITSELF, a proper, valid diagnosis in detail ?
Nope.

And yes, it does come with various "Edge" talents often enough - being an ISTP mad-science "Sparky" type, I know all too well how Hyperfocus and the related near-savantism works, although for me that's mostly social-psycho-political "science" rather than flat out R&D type stuff, well, mostly...

Happy

Quote:
As for the ladies, while it is possible for a female to be Autistic or within the Autistic spectrum, it is statistically very rare when compared to males. I only know of one Autistic girl our company does therapy with, and aside from the PIKA, you would think she was a normal little girl, only a little clumsy.

On a slightly unrelated note, PIKA (eats or swallows things not food, like rocks, crayons, coins or an one nerve-wracking case, a battery) and ADHD are are other common disorders found with many of the Autistic children we work with. I wonder if that is significant, or just the 'luck of the draw.'

Ah yes, one of those - there's actually a meme for this.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PasteEater

I think it has a lot to do with hyperfocus crossing up with natural curiousity - cause when those two wires get crossed up, hilarity tends to ensue rather quickly, something I am all too familiar with via hillbilly ancestry, as you well know the most dreaded phrase among them is "Hey Y'all, Watch THIS!".... *wince*
And also, via experimentation and... well, I guess you could say aquired tastes, some kids do wind up eating the most bizarre things, hell I rather liked notebook paper in middle school and would chew that instead of gum.
This also made it generally a bad idea to hand me a detention slip..

Having glanced over common so-called-treatment methodologies for it makes me wince though, as most of them seem needlessly abusive, potentially traumatic and all but assured to provoke an Iatrogenic Psychology.
I also see no mention of the like-for-like substitution we used on our coin-swallower, Necco wafers make an excellent substitution and replacement.

As for gender and autism, while I couldn't tell ya why, in my experience females tend to be far more resilient to trauma as well as more adaptive, better able to work around such problems - not sure if that's related to traditional gender roles and expectations, genetics, or what, really I have no bloody idea, and bear in mind that this was dealing with rather extreme cases which didn't necessarily involve autism spectrum so much as massive neglect and abuse... but it really went about 85/15 female/male on ability to "recover" them from catastrophic condition, the ones completely written off as hopeless by conventional psych - and I don't wanna talk about how low the success rate of that is, okay - but of those who WERE, about 85/15% by gender.
Taking into account your experience with the less-damaged end of things, it certainly appears it may well be that way all the way across, doesn't it ?
Still couldn't tell you why, however.

As for anything else, everybody has their quirks - "normal" is a myth, a pipe dream.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 8, 2011 10:49 AM

Notebook paper, pencil shavings, paste, erasers, grass, clover, dandelions, snapdragons, rose petals, random leaves, dirt, small rocks, various dares and bad habits...

And beer and alcohol is still the worst thing I've ever tasted. -yuck-

Coffee is a close runner up.

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Friday, July 8, 2011 2:50 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I see no reason to diagnose people with anything unless it is impacting their daily functioning. For instance, Quicko is 50 and has been fine all the way along, so why would his sister-in-law _want to diagnose him with anything, can't he just be himself without some label? I obviously think that labels are really helpful in figuring out how to address situations that are different and need addressing, but other than that why do we have to label everything that isn't normal, who is normal anyway? So as far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with Quicko. Nor is there any reason to give him a diagnosis unless he honestly feels that something is different and he needs answers. But as far as the average reader is concerned Quicko sounds ordinary enough, with some extra intensity and passion and enhanced sensory perception thrown in.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Friday, July 8, 2011 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I see no reason to diagnose people with anything unless it is impacting their daily functioning. For instance, Quicko is 50 and has been fine all the way along, so why would his sister-in-law _want to diagnose him with anything, can't he just be himself without some label? I obviously think that labels are really helpful in figuring out how to address situations that are different and need addressing, but other than that why do we have to label everything that isn't normal, who is normal anyway? So as far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with Quicko. Nor is there any reason to give him a diagnosis unless he honestly feels that something is different and he needs answers. But as far as the average reader is concerned Quicko sounds ordinary enough, with some extra intensity and passion and enhanced sensory perception thrown in.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Kinda where I'm at with it.

1) She wants the "official" diagnosis" because it's kind of a "mark of honor" thing among her peers - "Hey, I got an Asperger's today!"

2) It doesn't help me in any way, and I'd be far too worried about any "official" label such as "disabled".

3) So far as I know, there aren't really any meds or anything that are going to really help, and I likely wouldn't take them if there were, because I worry about dependence and such, so there's really no "upside" to having such a diagnosis in my case.

And while I might not fit in with most "normal" folks, I actually *AM* normal, for me! :)

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:36 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Eye color -

Melanin (brown eye color) is in the pathway for producing neurochemicals. The more melanin, the more transmitting (v inhibitory) neurochemicals there are, the faster go visual transmission and reflexes. At least, so the theory says. By that theory, brown-eyed people would be better able to detect 60-cycle visual flicker. But not in this group!

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Monday, July 11, 2011 6:36 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

You are ordinary enough Quicko, let your sister in law go back to her textbooks or whatever and leave off the bragging rights. Is she in school? that would explain why she would be bragging, other than that why would she? If she is working in her field then she probably diagnoses plenty of people with plenty of things so she should leave off, no point in trying to do it to you. Nothing changes.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, July 12, 2011 1:24 AM

Well, all that also reminds me why I heavily support CCHR.
Thing is, there ARE real disorders, sure - and medication does have valid use as symptom abatement, or in case where the root cause is full on neuro or bio, perhaps required on a longterm basis....
But that ain't how we do it, for the most part, generally it's a bullshit checklist diagnosis, heavily sponsored by Big Pharma to sell their wonder products, and results in wholesale labelling of folks who really have nothing WRONG with em.

To which I quote CCHRs *excellent* response to this.

-Frem
PS. I ain't sayin pysch disorders don't exist, mind you - I'm flaming IMPROPER DIAGNOSIS, which is a different thing.

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, July 12, 2011 1:33 AM

Oh yes, and a funny related to natural childhood behavior - one of the folk we helped was babysitting her neighbors toddler recently, and had called me to ask something about what degree of solid food was appropriate, and suddenly wigs out...
Her-"Oh my gawd, he just flung off all his clothes and is running around laughing!"
Me-"Oh yeah, they do that."
Her-"Uhh, that's NORMAL?"
Me-"Well yes, people ARE born naked you know."
Her-"I am NEVER having kids!"
Me-*laughing ass off*

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, July 12, 2011 7:37 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Yeah, toddlers do that. I liked to run around the house after my bath until I was about 4, I would run around and shout "Geek! geek! geek!" I think I musthave heard it called streaking when I was really tiny and didn't know how to say it right, so when I was 4 and my dad would ask if I wanted to streak after my baths I'd say "No Daddy, its called geeking". :)
When my lil' brother was two and under, my mom would let him run around naked in the yard. its normal little one behavior allright. That's funny that your neighbor is grossed out by it.

And yeah, I think overdiagnosis is a real problem, why give someone a label unless its necessary in order to find a way to improve things?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 7:11 AM

Not neighbor, former DeeVee who was babysitting for her neighbor - and I think it was more WTF?! than grossed out, as she has very limited experience in dealing with childen and still hasn't quite grokked the fact that their behavior is very, very different from adults, worse in her case cause she's missing a big chunk of critical life experiences and whatnot.

I do find it hilarious to hear "I am NEVER having kids!" - cause you and I both know, five, ten years down the road, about half of em change their minds about it.

One thing about parenting that really does bug me is the expectation that when the kid goes out to play they won't come back covered in mud, grass stains and so forth - they're kids, this is inevitable, it's like expecting a mechanic to not wind up covered in grease, oil and transmission fluid, it's just NOT gonna happen that way, and getting annoyed with the kid about it is a waste of time.

To paraphrase - "Children, like butterflies, need no excuse."

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:46 AM

In my case, I'd go swimming in duck ponds, fully clothed, or splashing in puddles, or getting rips from climbing trees. It never quite occurred to my parents that yelling at me for it didn't make any difference.

On the other hand, with my parents there was something more in their motivations, in that they wanted me to be something I wasn't. Putting me in a doll-dress and curling my hair doesn't make me a girly-girl, or obedient, or improve my manners. Rather, it makes me irritable and rebellious.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 2:34 PM

Speakin of rips - yanno, it took me damn near thirty years to find a brand of pants that DIDN'T have the knees blown out in a week.
All hail Dickies work-wear, huzzah.

Also, you think YOU got issues, remind me to not give my word without getting literal-genie specific when pressed by the horde of convention brats - I agreed to attend the next one up in costume, figuring on Grim Reaper or Nazgul, as usual, right ?
Only, they took a vote, and picked.. *wince*, Hinaichigo.
I'm STILL trying to weasel out of that, mind you.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 3:37 PM

Yeah, I know I don't really compare to what they've been through. It's so nice that you entertain them, though you can't let them take advantage of you, you know. No wonder you say your cats are spoiled. :P

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 3:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well, all that also reminds me why I heavily support CCHR.
Thing is, there ARE real disorders, sure - and medication does have valid use as symptom abatement, or in case where the root cause is full on neuro or bio, perhaps required on a longterm basis....
But that ain't how we do it, for the most part, generally it's a bullshit checklist diagnosis, heavily sponsored by Big Pharma to sell their wonder products, and results in wholesale labelling of folks who really have nothing WRONG with em.

Frem, check the article link I posted in the "Chemical Warfare" thread. Not only misdiagnosis, but "off-label" prescriptions written to treat symptoms the prescribed drug was NEVER approved for, much less TESTED FOR - and the nightmare side effects that result.

One of the cited examples was almost laughable if it weren't so goddamn infuriating (your example of how irritating evil done badly can be came to mind while reading it): a drug company pushing their latest and greatest, which not only doesn't help the kids they're pushing it on, but one of the chief side effects is that they gain weight and develop diabetes, WHICH THE DRUG WAS SUPPOSED TO HELP STOP IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Oh, and as luck would have it, they just happened to have a new slew of diabetes-treating drugs in development at the time.

Awesome. Lucky us!

BigPharma's WMD kill more people every year - 200,000 of them Americans - than Saddam ever THOUGHT about killing.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 6:01 PM