REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Karl Rove Betrayed CIA Agent's Cover - Anyone Surprised?

POSTED BY: KNIBBLET
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 08:44
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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 4:54 AM

KNIBBLET


Karl Rove - the human equivalent of a seeping sack of infected pus - gets pissed that a US Ambassador follows his concience and declares that the rush to war in Iraq is NOT justified.

To shut up the person who won't polish his jackboots and step along with El Presidente, Rove betrays the man's wife's identity as a CIA agent.

Treason isn't a pretty word. Treason isn't hyperbole when you're talking about a rat bastard betraying the identity of Valerie Plame and endangering the lives of the agents associated with and the work being done by her.

I'm sure no one is surprised as this is exactly the sort of thing good ole pusbag Karl has done throughout his career; however, does anyone really think that Dubya is going to do anything about it?

Nah ... it's not like El Presidente hasn't known it was his badly disciplined guard hound all along. If he didn't, it's just another example of his pickled brain not seeing something under his nose.

I know there are going to be a ton of responses about how I'm bitter that the democrats lost the election ... yadda yadda yadda ...

Make your little posts, but demand that Dubya does what he swore to do. Demand that Karl Rove be fired.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:27 AM

ODDNESS2HER


Right on, Knibblet!

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 8:05 AM

SERGEANTX


There's hardly anything solid yet. With anyone else, yeah, he'd be in jail by now. But this is "Turd Blossom" himself. I'll be surprised if he even gets a slap on the wrist.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 8:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rove may not have been the only one involved. There's always Eliot Abrams and Dick Cheney to consider.

The rightwing spin is that Karl Rove thought that Plame was "just" a secretary. The right is in such a tizzy, they can't even keep their stories straight, forgetting that they also accused Plame of authorizing a trip to Niger for her husband. All I can say is- DANG, those CIA "secretaries" sure have a lot of pull!

Bush said that he would "fire" anyone who leaked her name. FIRE??? Plame's expertise was in WMD and a whole cover operation was blown. She was so deep she had no official cover, which means if she were caught the CIA would disavow any knowledge of her. I heard, and am trying to run down the source, that her "outing" caused at least one CIA officer to be killed. You don't "fire" someone for that. If they are extremely lucky, they should rot in jail for a lifetime.

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 9:09 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Puuuuuuuuuhhhhleeeease LOL.

She was a desk Jockey who went to all the big politicos parties and was a Democratic campaign contributor, not to mention a calling her an undercover "agent" (I use the term loosely) when she was FAR from under cover is a joke. It was WELL known that she worked in the CIA.

Not to defend Mini-Cheney, but comeon now..LOL. Old Rovester didn't break any laws. This is a bandwagon mentality at it's worst. This is like calling for Clinton to be impeached cause he said he didn't have sex with an intern. WHO GIVES A FLYING CRAP?

I say Let's go after Cheney and friends about the lack of accountability on Iraq. Let's go after them about the lies surrounding the whole "Yellowcake" debaucle. Let's go after all the Washington shitheels who take money from lobbyists. Thats way more important then some rich bitch who's sugah daddy got into a tussel with Bush Jr. because he too was called out on his word "manipulation".

In my opinion they are all scumbags. Every last one of em.






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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 9:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You know, this wouldn't be the first time that an undercover officer had posed as a "desk jockey" who flits around internationally with no apparent impact.
Quote:

Novak's initial column identified Plame as "an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction." He has since stated that he believed Plame was merely an analyst at the CIA, not a covert operative—the difference being that analysts are not undercover, so identifying them is not a crime. Critics contend that after decades as a Washington reporter Novak was well aware of the difference and would be unlikely to make such a mistake. Novak has also claimed that Plame's CIA employment was an open secret in Washington, indicating that effective "affirmative measures" to conceal her relationship to the CIA were not being taken. Several ex-CIA operatives who knew Plame have disputed this and indicated that she was at one time a NOC (nonofficial cover) covert operative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame

Besides, it doesn't have to be an "either/or" proposition. I can get worked up over all kinds of issues!


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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 9:57 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
You know, this wouldn't be the first time that an undercover officer had posed as a "desk jockey" who flits around internationally with no apparent impact.
Quote:

Novak's initial column identified Plame as "an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction." He has since stated that he believed Plame was merely an analyst at the CIA, not a covert operative—the difference being that analysts are not undercover, so identifying them is not a crime. Critics contend that after decades as a Washington reporter Novak was well aware of the difference and would be unlikely to make such a mistake. Novak has also claimed that Plame's CIA employment was an open secret in Washington, indicating that effective "affirmative measures" to conceal her relationship to the CIA were not being taken. Several ex-CIA operatives who knew Plame have disputed this and indicated that she was at one time a NOC (nonofficial cover) covert operative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame

Besides, it doesn't have to be an "either/or" proposition. I can get worked up over all kinds of issues!




I don't buy it. It seems just a little toooooo "Bourne Identity" like for me.

I like Wiki, particularly since they seem to be drifting away from being totally biased and more fact oriented. Which is something I find important these days. However, I read this as well from the same link, which leads me to believe that this is a mole hill being called a mountain.


Quote:

In his October 1, 2003 article "The CIA Leak" Novak states this explanation for the two "senior administration officials" and the "CIA official" referenced in his June 14 article:

"During a long conversation with a senior administration official, I asked why Wilson was assigned the mission to Niger. He said Wilson had been sent by the CIA's counterproliferation section at the suggestion of one of its employees, his wife. It was an offhand revelation from this official, who is no partisan gunslinger. When I called another official for confirmation, he said: "Oh, you know about it." The published report that somebody in the White House failed to plant this story with six reporters and finally found me as a willing pawn is simply untrue.
At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name. I used it in the sixth paragraph of my column because it looked like the missing explanation of an otherwise incredible choice by the CIA for its mission."



As for the getting worked up about other issues..
can I hear am "AMEN!!" LOL

My problem with this is that everytime we seem close to getting to the real thrust of something, this kind of crap jumps up and leads us away from finding any truth. I'd still like to know how this administration keeps getting let off the hook in regards to accountability on ANYTHING!!! LOL.

My head hurts now...tooo much... thinking..

PS.. (Off the topic a little teensie weensie bit) I spent a weekend in Woodstock this last weekend. What a crazy cool town LOL. There are some things hippies do right. Living and enjoying life is one of them LOL. I've begun to really enjoy my weekend ventures looking for some serenity. Though I'm not ready to throw on some Birkenstocks just yet lol

There was an interesting political conversation I walked into regarding the G8 Summit. It was another shining example of how easily we are swayed from real issues like Africa to whether or not a Politicos wife's career was slowed.



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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 12:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
Karl Rove - the human equivalent of a seeping sack of infected pus - gets pissed that a US Ambassador follows his concience and declares that the rush to war in Iraq is NOT justified.

To shut up the person who won't polish his jackboots and step along with El Presidente, Rove betrays the man's wife's identity as a CIA agent.

Treason isn't a pretty word. Treason isn't hyperbole when you're talking about a rat bastard betraying the identity of Valerie Plame and endangering the lives of the agents associated with and the work being done by her.

I'm sure no one is surprised as this is exactly the sort of thing good ole pusbag Karl has done throughout his career; however, does anyone really think that Dubya is going to do anything about it?

Nah ... it's not like El Presidente hasn't known it was his badly disciplined guard hound all along. If he didn't, it's just another example of his pickled brain not seeing something under his nose.

I know there are going to be a ton of responses about how I'm bitter that the democrats lost the election ... yadda yadda yadda ...

Make your little posts, but demand that Dubya does what he swore to do. Demand that Karl Rove be fired.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/



Only that isn't what happened.

Treason? Please. No CIA agent's 'identity' was betrayed. Not by Rove, at least. She was working a desk job and not on any protection list by the CIA. It's funny to see the Left get all worked up over imaginary non issues.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:03 PM

KNIBBLET


Fine, let's be calm then.

Dubya said he'd fire anyone on his staff that leaked classified information. Even if Karl Rove were so incredibly stupid that he didn't realize the information was classifed, he still did it and ignorance isn't an excuse.
Just like all of Dubya's bullshit stories, he'll never fire Rove or anyone else in his administration who dropped the ball, ignored the truth, manipulated intelligence, outright lied or leaked classifed information.
Hell ... I guess if he did clean house, he'd have to scrub the toilets out himself.

By the way, I'm still wondering why those Bush twins - who seem to be healthy young Americans - aren't carrying an M16 in Iraq. After all, Bush is happy enough to send everyone else's kids off to die.

Yes, despite my desire to be calm, I read more death notices from Iraq.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:44 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
Dubya said he'd fire anyone on his staff that leaked classified information. Even if Karl Rove were so incredibly stupid that he didn't realize the information was classifed, he still did it and ignorance isn't an excuse.
Just like all of Dubya's bullshit stories, he'll never fire Rove or anyone else in his administration who dropped the ball, ignored the truth, manipulated intelligence, outright lied or leaked classifed information.
Hell ... I guess if he did clean house, he'd have to scrub the toilets out himself.

For crying out loud. Why should he fire Rove? How do you know he “did it?” Rove hasn’t been convicted of any crime, and I’ve not seen any hard evidence of anything, just the keyed up accusations of Liberals and other anti-Rovites. Just because you don’t agree with the guy doesn’t mean we should fire him at the first sign of the appearance of impropriety.

If he is convicted of knowingly leaking the name of an agent I’ll call for his imprisonment, but until there is a guilty verdict from a trial or at least hard evidence, there is hardly any reason to go off the deep end.

If the government fired everyone who leaked classified information, we wouldn’t have a Congress.
Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
By the way, I'm still wondering why those Bush twins - who seem to be healthy young Americans - aren't carrying an M16 in Iraq. After all, Bush is happy enough to send everyone else's kids off to die.

He’s not sending anyone who didn’t sign up to go. We have an all volunteer military. If the Bush twins want to try their hand at recruitment and possibly go to Iraq, that is their prerogative.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 5:13 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Why should he fire Rove? How do you know he “did it?” Rove hasn’t been convicted of any crime, and I’ve not seen any hard evidence of anything, just the keyed up accusations of Liberals and other anti-Rovites. Just because you don’t agree with the guy doesn’t mean we should fire him at the first sign of the appearance of impropriety.
Where oh where was your concern for due process when it came to Ward Churchill?

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 5:18 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


My lack of concern for due process in Churchill’s case is a figment of your imagination. Anyone who bothers to read my posts in that topic will see quite clearly that I never called for Churchill’s dismissal.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 5:29 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


He’s not sending anyone who didn’t sign up to go. We have an all volunteer military. If the Bush twins want to try their hand at recruitment and possibly go to Iraq, that is their prerogative.



Excellent observation.

I saw Ferenheit 911 the other day, and found this to be the most ludicrous (sp?) argument used by the filmmaker.

He asserted that if members of congress supported the war, then they should 'send' their children to fight in Iraq.

I myself was unaware that anybody was 'sent' to Iraq. The filmmaker was making an inflammatory suggestion that was not supported by logic.

The filmmaker further said that only one member of congress had an enlisted child in the military.

I have wondered what he meant. Does only one member of congress have a child in the military, or does only one member of congress have a non-officer child in the military?

Because I think signing on as an officer counts as being in the military, too. Plus it's the smart thing to do if you can qualify for it.

Anyhow, the logic hole of 'sending' people into the military is obvious. If any adult wants to join the military, they can. (Assuming they are physically fit for it.)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:02 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Anyhow, the logic hole of 'sending' people into the military is obvious. If any adult wants to join the military, they can. (Assuming they are physically fit for it.)



True enough, but I think the point was not that random people are pulled off the streets and sent. That's the real tragedy of it. These are truly people who love their country, who've volunteered to protect it. To send them on unnecessary adventures would be an abuse of trust. If a war is the grave necessity our leaders say, then they out to be willing to put their own flesh and blood on the line, alongside the sons and daughters of the nations taxpayers.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:32 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


About his being fired, you said YOU would not do it but it would be OK for other people to. Here are the other things you said, a lone voice crying for impartial evaluation and due process:
Quote:

FINN MAC CUMHAL
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 20:42
I totally believe they could have hired this guy based purely on his supposed Native American background. Considering the idiotic things this clown has said, I find it hard to believe that he could have made it through the system without considerable hand waiving. Higher education in this country is pretty damn Left-wing, but I can’t believe it’s this stupid.
Although I could be wrong, but if this clown is a fair representation of American Academia, we just need to shut down the colleges and start over from scratch, because there’s no fixing something that broke.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 22:12
bologna
He's a fruitcake.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 22:38
I guess that depends on what you mean by quality research. My intern does quality research, but that doesn’t mean she can do the kind of work that the modelers do. If she could, she wouldn’t be an intern; we'd hire her on full time as an engineer or scientist. It doesn’t make any difference how many papers you cite, or write or how many hours you spend in the library, if at the end of the day you draw completely fallacious conclusions.
I’m sure Mr. Churchill would make a good intern.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 23:02
Any idiot can publish a book. That's more dependent on public interest then on the advancement of knowledge.
As far as advancing the level of understanding within a particular field, I have yet to see anything from Chruchill that would convince me he has made any such significant advances. Your assumption that the quality of his research necessarily means his conclusion advance anything is precarious at best. I would argue that making the breakthrough discovery that innocent victims of a terrorist attack are equivalent to Nazi executioner of Jews is probably not as great a leap forward as one might think.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
... I don’t need to be intimately familiar with this man’s work in order to draw the conclusion that he is a fruitcake. I only need to be familiar enough, which I am.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
The “phenomenon of Nazi Germany” was that people like Churchill were in power. People who believed that targeting and murdering innocent people to achieve a political goal was completely justifiable. Fortunately, no one like Churchill is in power in the US today. But considering how people dismiss and justify fruitcakey comments, and how willing we seem to be to put a person like Churchill in a position where he can implant fruitcakey ideas in impressionable minds, maybe someday you’ll get your analogy.
Hitler was just a fruitcake who happened to be in power.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 05:06
Never mind the 9/11 essay or the dubious ancestry, this turd is disgrace to his supposed profession.
It really puts things into perspective to see where some people’s priorities lie. Here we have the pedantic ramblings of a man who condones the intentional murder of thousands of innocent civilians based on some misguided fantasy of nationalistic pride. The psychosis of Hitler almost to the letter and some people can’t bring themselves to denounce this guy, apparently because he’s a fellow Left-winger. Instead they try to deflect the issue to the Right. The latest story is to try to bring up some journalist who snuck into the Whitehouse. During a discussion about the ‘befittingness’ of mass murder we are supposed to be outraged over some weirdo web blogger as if there is any equivalency at all. It's telling. It's very telling.


I just thought I'd inclue this little gem also from the thread:
Quote:

FINN MAC CUMHAL
Monday, April 04, 2005 - 05:24
Interesting. I initially supported Clinton in the impeachment scandal. Not that I necessarily supported him ideologically, but that was kind of during my transitional phase when I was moving away from the Left-wing hippy academic camp. After I learned more about the Clinton Whitehouse and began realize how poorly he ran things with his frat-boy mentality, it occurred to me that he brought it on himself. He was a poor leader and finally, whatever argument one can make about the Clinton political opponents, the fact remain that he did lie under oath in a federal court, and that pretty much symbolizes Clinton's value-system. Nothing one can say about Republicans excuses that.


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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:30 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


All excellent quotes. I didn’t realize I was such a poet. I stand by all of it too. And like I said, anyone who bothers to read my comments in that thread will see quite clearly that I never called for his dismissal. Interestingly enough, just like the last time you tried to pretend I supported Churchill’s dismissal, you left out this quote:

“I don’t know who all is calling for his dismissal. I think that if he acquired his position through fraud and that can be determined, then I think he should be dismissed immediately. Other then that, I’m not going to call for his dismissal based on the kinds of comments he’s made. Although, given the lunacy of some of his statements I can certainly understand if the tax payers of Colorado don’t want to pay this guy to teach their children. [emphasis mine]”
- Me. Wednesday, February 23, 2005

You made sure to get all those posts where I clearly displayed my disapproval with Churchill’s support for mass murder even though my disapproval of Churchill has little to do with whether or not I support his dismissal, but you left out the one quote that is explicitly pertinent to this discussion. The one quote where I actually pointed out exactly what I think concerning Churchill’s dismissal, you ignored. Twice. Why do you suppose that is?

If I remember the last time you started this little charade, you’ll start parsing through my words now, searching for a way to take individual words out of context or presume that I must have meant something different by a particular word then is obvious from the context in order to mold what I actually said to suit some imaginative meaning.

Oh, and while we are quoting stuff, I thought I would through this one out, since its related:

"If there was a better, more effective, or in fact any other way of visiting some penalty befitting their participation upon the little Eichmanns inhabiting the sterile sanctuary of the twin towers, I'd really be interested in hearing about it."

- Ward Churchill, concerning the befittingness of a terrorist attack that purposefully targeted and killed almost 3000 civilians.

Unlike Rove, the evidence against Churchill is carved in the ink of his own writing.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:57 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:

Nah ... it's not like El Presidente hasn't known it was his badly disciplined guard hound all along. If he didn't, it's just another example of his pickled brain not seeing something under his nose.



Are you crazy?!?! Of course Mr. Bush can see what's under his nose. Otherwise, how could so much have gone up it?


Back on topic. Mr. Rove should be suspended until his specific role has been determined. At that point he should either be fired and go to jail for a loooooong time, be forced into "retirement" as the political fallout would be to great, or continue his duties.

That's my CAD 2 cents anyway.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 8:07 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

“I don’t know who all is calling for his dismissal. I think that if he acquired his position through fraud and that can be determined, then I think he should be dismissed immediately. Other then that, I’m not going to call for his dismissal based on the kinds of comments he’s made. Although, given the lunacy of some of his statements I can certainly understand if the tax payers of Colorado don’t want to pay this guy to teach their children.
Don't know how I erased that one. I specifically referred to it.
Quote:

About his being fired, you said YOU would not do it but it would be OK for other people to.
But you certainly have a record of deciding he was a fraud, incompetent, a Nazi clone, fire-able (though not by you of course, you're far too interested in due process), a fruitcake etc etc etc. Yep. You're a fair minded guy just looking for due process in the interests of justice.

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 8:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Back on topic. Mr. Rove should be suspended until his specific role has been determined.
I'd think that'd be at least the minimum policy. Any bets as to whether even that happens?

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 8:48 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


If a war is the grave necessity our leaders say, then they out to be willing to put their own flesh and blood on the line, alongside the sons and daughters of the nations taxpayers.



Sarge, they can't put their own flesh and blood on the line, to fight alongside the sons and daughters of the nations taxpayers. That's the absurdity of it.

It was a stunt. And it does not even pass momentary muster. It's one of those fellacious arguments put forth that touches the heart but not the mind.

If Michael Moore had asked our nation's representatives, "Why don't you force your adult children to join the military against their will," it would have sounded properly absurd, and been the exact same message.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 8:54 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Quote:

Back on topic. Mr. Rove should be suspended until his specific role has been determined.
I'd think that'd be at least the minimum policy. Any bets as to whether even that happens?



Rove's got cards he ain't played yet. The mysterious 'other' source will materialize and take one for the team. That's my guess.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, July 12, 2005 9:04 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I didn't respond to your posting way up near the top, but I did agree with it. And I agree with this posting too, though I hope - really, really hope - you (and I) are wrong.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:48 AM

KNIBBLET


Bingo!
Thank you kindly for saying what I REALLY meant to say. I'm an upper-middle-class-white-chick. I spent 10 years in the Air Force. Of my brothers and sisters (5 of us total) we spent 35 years in service. I have always advocated the military as a way of life for the young people I know who could both take it and thrive in it.

Now? I couldn't tell a kid the join the military. I'm seeing misadventure everywhere. Bush & Co are using our forces as a way of expanding the financial empires of their rich cronies.

Iraq had no WMD. Iraq didn't have the strength to cause its neighbors alarm. Iraq had NO connections to 9/11 or Al Quaida.

What does Iraq have? Oil.

I don't see Bush's daughters there - I do see him continuing to bang that war drum though. I don't see him or his ilk convincing their children to put themselves in harm's way.

Frak! I've hijacked my own thread.
Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
True enough, but I think the point was not that random people are pulled off the streets and sent. That's the real tragedy of it. These are truly people who love their country, who've volunteered to protect it. To send them on unnecessary adventures would be an abuse of trust. If a war is the grave necessity our leaders say, then they out to be willing to put their own flesh and blood on the line, alongside the sons and daughters of the nations taxpayers.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Anyhow, the logic hole of 'sending' people into the military is obvious. If any adult wants to join the military, they can.



http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:03 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
Bingo!
Thank you kindly for saying what I REALLY meant to say. I'm an upper-middle-class-white-chick. I spent 10 years in the Air Force. Of my brothers and sisters (5 of us total) we spent 35 years in service. I have always advocated the military as a way of life for the young people I know who could both take it and thrive in it.

Now? I couldn't tell a kid the join the military. I'm seeing misadventure everywhere. Bush & Co are using our forces as a way of expanding the financial empires of their rich cronies.

Iraq had no WMD. Iraq didn't have the strength to cause its neighbors alarm. Iraq had NO connections to 9/11 or Al Quaida.

What does Iraq have? Oil.

I don't see Bush's daughters there - I do see him continuing to bang that war drum though. I don't see him or his ilk convincing their children to put themselves in harm's way.

Frak! I've hijacked my own thread.
Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
True enough, but I think the point was not that random people are pulled off the streets and sent. That's the real tragedy of it. These are truly people who love their country, who've volunteered to protect it. To send them on unnecessary adventures would be an abuse of trust. If a war is the grave necessity our leaders say, then they out to be willing to put their own flesh and blood on the line, alongside the sons and daughters of the nations taxpayers.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Anyhow, the logic hole of 'sending' people into the military is obvious. If any adult wants to join the military, they can.



http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/




It was never about the oil. It was about the strategic military location of Iraq. We won't see peace for another 50 years in my opinion.

As for politicians forcing THEIR kids into joining the military, that's absurd... when the draft occurs, and it will (we can't fight on so many fronts without it), if their kids aren't included in the mix then we will have something to bitch about. Until the draft occurs, everyone in the military, like it or not, is still volunteer and knew the potential was there to be called up to fight.


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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Except the reservists whose expectation was that they would protect the home sod while the real troops were fighting on foreign soil.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:36 AM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Where oh where was your concern for due process when it came to Ward Churchill?



Where, oh, where is your concern for due process?

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:48 AM

G1223


The part Rove seems to have done. Is confirm that Plame was CIA and did this AFTER the story came out. That is what was said but if we are going to have a conspiracy make sure to have the real story here be about the Space Aliens using their orbital mind control ray ..... Oh wait what mind control ray.... Nothing to see here.

TANSTAAFL

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:54 AM

KNIBBLET


The concept of 'Total Force' was designed in part to ensure that reservists and guard would be called up. The idea was to make everyone's neighbors vulnerable and effect everyone's lives.
One of the reasons wars drag on so long is that 'regular' people don't have military experience and don't know anyone in uniform. Ergo, they don't really notice when bodies and lives are getting blown to bits.
Even with total force, people are able to turn a blind eye to the horror. They justify or ignore the carnage. "They volunteered what did they expect" is one disgusting refrain from the masses.
People being able to NOT be involved and ignore what is going on is reprehensible and is one of the reasons I've always supported a draft and national service with NO college exemption.
Here's my perfect world of universal service and or draft: Everyone -- male or female, rich or poor -- if you are of sound mind and body, you serve.
No college exemptions. You will serve before you go off to school or you will serve after graduation. No weasles getting out of it.
If you are a conciencious objector you get to spend four years picking up trash along our nation's rivers or serving in some other way that doesn't involve carrying a gun.

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Except the reservists whose expectation was that they would protect the home sod while the real troops were fighting on foreign soil.



http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:07 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
The concept of 'Total Force' was designed in part to ensure that reservists and guard would be called up. The idea was to make everyone's neighbors vulnerable and effect everyone's lives.
One of the reasons wars drag on so long is that 'regular' people don't have military experience and don't know anyone in uniform. Ergo, they don't really notice when bodies and lives are getting blown to bits.
Even with total force, people are able to turn a blind eye to the horror. They justify or ignore the carnage. "They volunteered what did they expect" is one disgusting refrain from the masses.
Being able to NOT be involved is one of the reasons I've always supported a draft and national service with NO college exemption.
Here's my perfect world of universal service and or draft: Everyone -- male or female, rich or poor -- if you are of sound mind and body, you serve.
No college exemptions. You will serve before you go off to school or you will serve after graduation. No weasles getting out of it.
If you are a conciencious objector you get to spend four years picking up trash along our nation's rivers or serving in some other way that doesn't involve carrying a gun.

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Except the reservists whose expectation was that they would protect the home sod while the real troops were fighting on foreign soil.



http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/




Great post Knibblet. It might force us to be a little less free with the Globalization agenda. Then again..who knows. Our government would probably create a loophole to prevent THEIR kids from ever seeing active combat.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:20 AM

KNIBBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Connorflynn:
It might force us to be a little less free with the Globalization agenda. Then again..who knows. Our government would probably create a loophole to prevent THEIR kids from ever seeing active combat.


I can only assume you're referring to the current batch of powerful men whose family connections got them a "get out of vietnam free card" and into reserve units?

No exemptions. No college exemptions. No 'wife and kids' exemptions. No 'other priorities' exemptions. No weasling your kids into the guard or reserves (which with Total Force aren't 'safe' anymore anyway) by bypassing hundreds of people on waiting lists.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 5:10 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Where, oh, where is your concern for due process?
Well, let's see. Private and public management always reserve for themselves the right to immediately dismiss employees for serious infractions. This is completely outside of law enforcement jurisdiction. A person has NO constitutional protection from private entities and only limited protection from public ones acting as employers. But there is some managerial precedent for providing for basic fairness while at the same time dealing with serious allegations. Suspension (paid or unpaid) is the option of choice here.
So, find me a quote where I say Rove should be instantly fired.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 5:13 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
About his being fired, you said YOU would not do it but it would be OK for other people to. . . . But you certainly have a record of deciding he was a fraud, incompetent, a Nazi clone, fire-able (though not by you of course, you're far too interested in due process), a fruitcake etc etc etc. Yep. You're a fair minded guy just looking for due process in the interests of justice.

I never said it was okay for anyone to do it. That’s your imagination. Without a doubt I don’t care much for the guy, and I certainly sympathize with the families who don’t want their children being taught by an instructor that openly condones mass murder. I’m not going to apologize for that. I don’t care much for a lot people who condone mass murder. None of that has anything to do with whether I called for his dismissal which I clearly did not. And for you to use it that way, especially after I’ve explicitly stated the contrary, is silly. It would be comedic, if you weren’t actually trying to be serious.
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
So, find me a quote where I say Rove should be instantly fired.

Why? You’ve already set the bar on this much lower. All we have to do is show that you don’t agree with him, and according to you, that’s evidence of wanting him dismissed. Or are you a hypocrite?
Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
I don't see Bush's daughters there - I do see him continuing to bang that war drum though. I don't see him or his ilk convincing their children to put themselves in harm's way.

His ilk? Most of the military are Bush supporters? Most of the military in Iraq voted for Bush, twice. And none of them were coerced into the military, not by Bush. They support Bush and joined the military totally on their own.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 5:36 AM

KNIBBLET


Quote:

His ilk? Most of the military are Bush supporters? Most of the military in Iraq voted for Bush, twice. And none of them were coerced into the military, not by Bush. They support Bush and joined the military totally on their own.

I never said the military was Bush's ilk. Never. Never. Never.

The military didn't want the war in Iraq and its leaders tried to warn the White House that we didn't have the people or resources for this adventure when we had real threats elsewhere (nuclear Korea for one). They were told to shut up and salute.

You'll never find anyone as anti-war and realistic about the costs of war as a military person.

His 'ilk' are politicians and other purveyors of sleaze who see war as a glorious adventure until it affects their personal asses getting shot off.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 5:55 AM

SIGMANUNKI


*sigh* No-one liked my joke.

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

Quote:


Back on topic. Mr. Rove should be suspended until his specific role has been determined.



I'd think that'd be at least the minimum policy. Any bets as to whether even that happens?



Well, if we look at the history of rewarding behaviour like this by the GW admin., then I'm going to have to side with Jon Stewart. With something like this, his "punishment" will be a promotion to cheif justice on the supreme court.


Just a general comment though. Watching the news about what is happening politically in the US (mainly) is kinda like watching political satire. I'd laugh at the absurdity if I wasn't aware it was real. Right now it's just scary sad.

Anyone else feel this way?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

*sigh* No-one liked my joke.
You mean- this one???
Quote:

Are you crazy?!?! Of course Mr. Bush can see what's under his nose. Otherwise, how could so much have gone up it?
OF COURSE I liked your joke! It caught me in the middle of drinking my ayem coffee, which I promptly snorted out my, er, nose!


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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:41 AM

KNIBBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
*sigh* No-one liked my joke.

Quote:

You mean- this one???Are you crazy?!?! Of course Mr. Bush can see what's under his nose. Otherwise, how could so much have gone up it? OF COURSE I liked your joke! It caught me in the middle of drinking my ayem coffee, which I promptly snorted out my, er, nose!

Ditto! Diet Pepsi burns like a mo-fo
I was working on forgetting it so as to heal and move on in life.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 7:22 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Just a general comment though. Watching the news about what is happening politically in the US (mainly) is kinda like watching political satire. I'd laugh at the absurdity if I wasn't aware it was real. Right now it's just scary sad.

Anyone else feel this way?



Yes. Yes. This is a very scary sad moment for us humans. We're gonna have to do some growing up very fast, if a whole crowd of disasters are to be avoided. People in this country are so frightened still, and angry. I thought that would have subsided by now. I thought the war would be far more unpopular by now than it is. I thought something would have tarnished Bush's lustre by now. Even militarily, we have seen failure after failure, but Bush has yet to admit to even the smallest mistake. I'm shocked that Americans are comforted by this b.s.

We need someone with a different vision of the future than the forever war. We need somebody to tell the American people to calm the hell down. If this is Viet Nam all over again, where the heck is the new Martin Luther King?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:00 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


SigmaNunki

I LOVED your joke ! I just didn't want to seem like I was trying to turn the thread into a love-fest. I'd hate for you to be lumped in with me. You'd take a lot of abuse.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:07 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Finn, Finn, Finn ...

I am familiar enough with dodge phrases - it seems, it appears, I think ...
And with how you routinely malign people through implication.

So here it is, in a nutshell:

You said if he got his job through fraud he should be fired, and that he was not up to academic muster, and that his phony Indian 'status' got him the job. The only thing you left out was "therefore".

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Yes. Yes. This is a very scary sad moment for us humans. We're gonna have to do some growing up very fast, if a whole crowd of disasters are to be avoided. People in this country are so frightened still, and angry.
[off topic] Many Americans are living a deep contradiction. On the one hand, they feel morally and militarily superior. On the other hand, they fear. But they have yet to experience that cold, still moment when survival calculations take place. When they are shocked into THINKING. Because they haven't truly taken the measure of their opponent, they are likely to act in dangerous ways.In the thread on Americans gunning down farmers, I posted a portion of an LA Times editorial that speculates rather specifically on the chances and outcome of an "Islamic" nuclear bomb. It seems unthinkable, but so was 9-11. I believe the invasion of Iraq will have powerfully dangerous consequences for us. I suspect this will be far worse than Vietnam ever was because potential oil resources and population size can combine to create a much stronger enemy. I hope I'm wrong. [/off topic]


Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:10 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ...

I am familiar enough with dodge phrases - it seems, it appears, I think ...
And with how you routinely malign people through implication.

So here it is, in a nutshell:

You said if he got his job through fraud he should be fired, and that he was not up to academic muster, and that his phony Indian 'status' got him the job. The only thing you left out was "therefore".

In other words, I never called for his dismissal, did I?

I’ll simply respond with your own words:

“So, find me a quote where I say [ Churchill ] should be instantly fired.”

Or does this only apply to you? The rest of the world is subject to whatever strawman you decide you want to use to manipulate people’s comments to suit what you want to be true?

Evidently, you think the "minimum policy" should be that Rove should be suspended, so you are calling Rove’s dismissal without due process. Is there some reason why Rove shouldn’t be granted the same benefit of the doubt as an instructor who condones the mass murder of Americans? You've decided that due process was so important in Churchill's case, but not Rove's?


-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:07 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ...

I am familiar enough with dodge phrases - it seems, it appears, I think ...
And with how you routinely malign people through implication.



But, alas. This is the republican way. I think they send them to a school or something to perfect the technique. Wonder if they have a class on avoiding federal grand jury indictments?



SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 5:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Is there some reason why Rove shouldn’t be granted the same benefit of the doubt as an instructor who condones the mass murder of Americans?
Ummm... a point here? Maybe it's because Karl apparently doesn't know how to handle classified information? That he could have inflicted real harm to our security (and according to some CIA ppl he did)? Or possibly that he appears to have broken a law? Suspension is not firing, you know. It merely means that a person is temporarily removed from their duties (often WITH pay) while the facts are sorted out. So far, according to both Karl's lawyer and Matt Cooper, the facts would justify suspension.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Evidently, you think the "minimum policy" should be that Rove should be suspended, so you are calling Rove’s dismissal without due process. Is there some reason why Rove shouldn’t be granted the same benefit of the doubt as an instructor who condones the mass murder of Americans? You've decided that due process was so important in Churchill's case, but not Rove's?
First of all, suspension (with or without pay) is not dismissal. Basic fact you can't seem to wrap your mind around. Second, Churchill's statements fall under first ammendment constitutional protections. Rove's - not so much. Last, you yourself made the link between Churchill's statement's and firing by direct contrast - I would not, but they ....

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:04 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ...

I am familiar enough with dodge phrases - it seems, it appears, I think ...
And with how you routinely malign people through implication.



But, alas. This is the republican way. I think they send them to a school or something to perfect the technique. Wonder if they have a class on avoiding federal grand jury indictments?



Are these guys EVER going to be held to account for their vapid denials and constantly shifting realities? Karl Rove says he didn't even know Wilson's wife's name and then is shown to have named her in an email. McClellen says the accusation is "ridiculous" and then is proven wrong. Cheney says the insurgency is in it's last throes and then gives us double talk dictionary definitions of "throes." Rummy says these "last throes" could take "2, 5 or 12 years." Bush says that Bin Laden doesn't concern him anymore and less than a month (I think it was just a few weeks) later denies it, saying, "I don't recall ever saying that." And on and on and on and on and on and on. They wanted to impeach Clinton for lying about who he had sex with, but the constant lies and obfuscations about matters of actual national importance...nothing.

"This has all been covered before."

"It's old news."

"lefties whining about non-issues."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Here are a few more: The Bush administration resisted the formation of the 9-11 Commission, and has STILL refused to allow access to key witnesses, then paints themselves as "anti-terrorists". Gonzales splits hairs about the meaning of torture to justify... torture. There is no such thing as global warming... well, maybe there is. The true (actuarial) cost of drug coverage in Medicare was suppressed. The TAX CUTS benefitted everyone. Bush is a compassionate conservative. Social Security is in crisis, but the Federal budget... not so much.


Some Americans can swallow ENDLESS filth. As long as they keep swallowing, the Administration will keep pooping it out. And those same Americans can live with fundamental chasms in their brains, without ever a spark of thought crossing the divide between one basic thought (I am superior) and an opposing one (I am afraid). I think it has to to with America being the most religious developed nation in the world. If you grow up believing in the universal invisible friend, you're primed to accept statements that contradict your own senses. And that makes you vulnerable to televangelists, politicians and hucksters of any sort, as long as they speak a familiar lingo.

BTW, there is a big untold story here. There were TWO Administration sources to the Plame story. Rove was one and my bet is that Cheney was the other. The two halves of Bush's brain. Gosh, if he had to fire them both, he wouldn't know what to think!

I have NO respect for people who have NO respect for what they put in their brains.

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Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:41 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Ummm... a point here? Maybe it's because Karl apparently doesn't know how to handle classified information? That he could have inflicted real harm to our security (and according to some CIA ppl he did)? Or possibly that he appears to have broken a law?

How do you know any of this is true? That is what due process was to determine. Are you magic? Evidently, you’ve already convicted him, right?
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
First of all, suspension (with or without pay) is not dismissal. Basic fact you can't seem to wrap your mind around.

I don’t remember you calling for Churchill’s “suspension.” All I remember you complaining about Churchill was “due process,” and how important it was before anyone jumped to conclusions, or suggested that he maybe shouldn't have condoned mass murder. Evidently, if you’re Karl Rove it’s less important.
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Last, you yourself made the link between Churchill's statement's and firing by direct contrast - I would not, but they ....

“So, find me a quote where I say [ Churchill ] should be instantly fired.”
Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ...

I am familiar enough with dodge phrases - it seems, it appears, I think ...
And with how you routinely malign people through implication.

But, alas. This is the republican way. I think they send them to a school or something to perfect the technique. Wonder if they have a class on avoiding federal grand jury indictments?

Did all of you attend that class?



Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
. . . Bush says that Bin Laden doesn't concern him anymore and less than a month (I think it was just a few weeks) later denies it, saying, . . .


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I think it has to to with America being . . .



-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Thursday, July 14, 2005 7:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Finn- Look, I know you're on the defensive here, but at this point you're in blatant denial of reality. It has already been verified that Plame's indentity was classified. It has already been verified that Rove was ONE OF the sources. Ipso facto, Rove mishandled classified information. Whether he did this maliciously or stupidly, whether he placed CIA officers in jeopardy or broke a law has yet to be determined, which is why I said it APPEARS that he has broken a law. You don't wait until AFTER the investigation is concluded to suspend someone. Suspension is normal operating procedure when serious ALLEGATIONS are made against a government official or employee, and is invoked while the invetigation is taking place. Here are some examples of allegations that would probably result in suspension: sexual harassment, mishandling accounts, mishandling sensitive information, or (in the case of police officers) excessive use of force.

If it seems like I'm beating this dead horse, it is because you appear to fail to understand what suspension is and when it is used.

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Thursday, July 14, 2005 7:41 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Ummm... a point here? Maybe it's because Karl apparently doesn't know how to handle classified information? That he could have inflicted real harm to our security (and according to some CIA ppl he did)? Or possibly that he appears to have broken a law?

How do you know any of this is true? That is what due process was to determine. Are you magic? Evidently, you’ve already convicted him, right?



Jeez'chrise, Finn, WTF? I think O.J. did it. In fact, I'm pretty darn sure he killed his wife and that other guy. Michael Jackson can't be trusted around young boys. Rodney King got the beat out of him. There's at least one sex addict on the Supreme Court. Due process doesn't change the truth. "Due process" and "innocent before proven guilty" are matters of law. They were designed with the intent of limiting the power of the state. They do not determine reality or describe the way people actually live or think (in most cases). I'm not magic, I'm just not blind to what goes on in the world. And, get this: I might be wrong.

Whatever nit-picking feud you may have going with Rue here, the rest of us still get to say what we think is obvious. None of us has the power to fire any of these folks, so we're all just mouthing off here. Do you mind?

Quote:

Did all of you attend that class?

Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
. . . Bush says that Bin Laden doesn't concern him anymore and less than a month (I think it was just a few weeks) later denies it, saying, . . .




Ah, now, what are you dragging me into this nonsense for? I added the "I think" precisely because I wasn't sure of my facts and was too lazy to go look 'em up. I didn't want some jackanapes to dismiss my whole point with "it wasn't a month, it was 43 days!" Aw well, best laid plans...



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:37 AM

SERGEANTX


Regardless of whether he technically broke the law or not, what has most of us upset is that this was yet another one of Karl Rove's underhanded smear jobs. THAT's what offends me more than anything and, to be honest, I do want to see him get caught, at least for something. They ought to be able to prosecute him for the tremendous damage he, and his ilk, have done to the democratic process. But since that's unlikely, I'll take what we can get.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
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NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
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BUILD BACK BETTER!
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RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
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Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
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Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
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You can't take the sky from me, a tribute to Firefly
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Tucker Carlson
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