REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A Single Imperial Class: Political and Media

POSTED BY: HOWARD
UPDATED: Monday, August 7, 2023 18:23
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Friday, October 21, 2005 9:27 AM

HOWARD


Here is an excellent bang-on-the-money analysis
of Beltway/Media professional incest as written by
Norman Solomon:


October 21, 2005

Media at a Huge Crossroads
25 Years After Reagan's Triumph
By NORMAN SOLOMON

"It bought us the time we needed."
Lieutenant-General James Lovelace, USA

By a twist of political fate, the Oct. 28 deadline for special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald to take action on the Plamegate matter is exactly 25 years after the only debate of the presidential race between Ronald Reagan and incumbent Jimmy Carter. How the major media outlets choose to handle the current explosive scandal in the months ahead will have enormous impacts on the trajectory of American politics.

A quarter of a century ago, conservative Republicans captured the White House. Today, a more extreme incarnation of the GOP's right wing has a firm grip on the executive branch. None of it would have been possible without a largely deferential press corps.

Among other things, Reagan's victory over Carter was a media triumph of style in the service of far-right agendas. When their only debate occurred on Oct. 28, 1980, a week before the election, Carter looked rigid and defensive while Reagan seemed at ease, making impact with zingers like "There you go again." More than ever, one-liners dazzled the press corps.

For the next eight years, a "Teflon presidency" had the news media making excuses for the nation's chief executive, who often got his facts wrong while substituting folksy exclamations for documented assertions. The Democratic Party's majorities on Capitol Hill rarely challenged Reagan, and the Washington press corps used the passivity of the Democrats to justify its own. As Walter Karp wrote in Harper's magazine a few months after Reagan left office, "the private story behind every major non-story during the Reagan administration was the Democrats' tacit alliance with Reagan."

That tacit alliance included going easy on Reagan and his vice-president-turned-successor, George H.W. Bush -- despite the Iran-Contra scandal that exposed their roles in the illegal funneling of aid to the Nicaraguan Contras, a CIA-backed army that intentionally killed civilians in Nicaragua while trying to implement Washington's goal of overthrowing the Sandinista government.

"For eight years," Karp wrote in mid-1989, "the Democratic opposition had shielded from the public a feckless, lawless president with an appalling appetite for private power. That was the story of the Reagan years, and Washington journalists evidently knew it. Yet they never turned the collusive politics of the Democratic Party into news."

Today, words like "feckless" and "lawless" seem like understatements when applied to the current president. A pattern of mendacity, callousness and appalling priorities has brought deadly consequences from Baghdad to New Orleans. The administration appears to be nearly drowning in scandals. Yet the news media -- again with notable assists from Democratic leaders in Congress -- are doing much to keep the Bush regime afloat.

Predictably, the Oct. 15 referendum on a constitution in Iraq provided the Bush administration with a new opportunity to roll out a retooled line of propaganda vehicles. A manipulative process, massaged under the duress of occupation, yielded a "yes" vote among Iraqis who chose to participate. Seen through a narrow lens -- keeping the carnage and intimidation out of the frame -- the election was a victory for democracy. Seen more broadly, it was a travesty.

Like two decades ago, the absence of tough Democratic leadership on Capitol Hill -- combined with an overly respectful press -- enables the White House to retain extensive political leverage. While the day of reckoning in human terms is every day in Iraq, the political day of reckoning on Iraq policy has yet to come in Washington. And at the rate things are going, many more years will pass before the need for withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Iraq becomes incontrovertible in American media and politics.

Part of the Reagan legacy is the Washington press corps' refusal to ask tough questions with even tougher follow-ups. Although the polls say that President Bush and his Iraq policies are very unpopular, Democrats in Congress and reporters are still hanging back. Their polemical statements and probing stories are the political and journalistic equivalents of slapping the wrist rather than going for the jugular.

Nothing is more dangerous than a cornered wild beast. And if the day comes that its political survival appears to be at stake, the Bush administration will counterattack with extreme ferocity. Judging from the past, there are solid reasons to doubt that the press corps -- and leaders of the overly loyal opposition -- are inclined to pursue key issues of White House deception to the point that the administration will be truly backed into a corner. As usual, the tasks of demanding truth and affecting the course of history for the better will fall to independent journalists and grassroots activists.

Norman Solomon is the author of War Made Easy: How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death.



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Friday, October 21, 2005 12:48 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


If you're going to continue posting other people's ideas, at least provide a cite or link to the original source so we can see where the info is coming from. Context is important.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, October 21, 2005 2:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Is there more to the article? I'll buy the argument that most Dems and media are tacitly conniving with Bush, but I'd like some insight as to WHY.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:19 PM

HOWARD


On Why?:

This is my account of the situation:

As my headline that I wrote says. A single imperial class of a superpower or empire which
ever one prefers. Corporate, Media and the Rep/Dem facade of difference.

Let us look at this issue. One problem in the United States in histrical terms within the public
political sector has been that there is not at the top level as opposed to grass roots a cultural or institutional design of questioning the leader. At first some asked whether George Washington should be crowned. While the man who is President may not be like a European Monarch of old (although: Bush snr behaved like an aristocrat) the position of President in terms of the chair and institution is very Monarchial. Under most Parliamentary systems the Prime Minister for example has to do two things. One maintained being elected on a personal level in a local constituancy and two appear in the Parliament to explain policy and face vigorous questioning. The American President is insulated from such obligations. Like a King.

Furthermore in the American system non of the cabinet needs to be elected the entire cabinet can be drawn from people who have never stood for election. Thus a awful statecraft mass murderer like Henry Kissinger was able to rise to the peak of power yet in his life the man has never put himself up for election before the voters. In the British and Canadian systems for example every member of the Cabinet is elected by a local constituency. This is so in most countries. There manifests thus an aura of distance of the technicrat courtiers of the cabinet around the King like President in the US system. Again members of cabinet in other countries have to appear on the floor of their House of Commons to explain policy and face hard questions. Again in the USA the cabinet is provided with a culture of insulation and undeserved deference.

So that is background. Now to the topics at hand. Why does the NY Times or a Democrat Senator tread so softly? Well some reasons can be deep and some so shallow that it boggles the mind. These people are addicted to the flame of power like moths and they do not want to risk be shut out of the feast like Chimpanzees who jump up and down and scream their support and triumpth at the Alpha males in the pack over a kill of a prey even though there is next to no chance of them getting a piece of the meat. They feel empowered by the strength of the group they feel that they are nothing outside of the leaders gang. In reality it is not even that complicated editors of newspapers and TV news producers hold back on hitting the admin hard out of fearing their own wives wrath. What is she going to say when their names are struck off the White House dinner-events guest lists. This goes back to JFK and the whole B.S myth of Camelot. Every editor's wife wanted to hang out with Jackie so JFK dirty foreign policy was censored all the way. These people want to belong to a quasi-aristocratic cultural elite. They may host the July 4th celebrations for the masses but privately they longed to be European Royalty from the 17th Century. Thats the Media class.

The Political class are more a mirror of the top-down ass-lickin' that is the structual
design of corporate capitalism. Plus of course they still work for the conglomerate sector
even when they are meant to be in public service. From campaign financing, to the cult of D.C lobbyist culture to the ultimate venue of big money for no real effort Pentagon contracts... American politicians have ALL the incentive NOT to challenge power not to side with ordinary people but rather their masters who own their careers. The false notion that such relationships are natural or based on legitimate ends is in turn cemented by the media who are part of the same system or least owned by the same system.

The United States is the ONLY Western country where television was introduced without a
public service broadcaster as a cornerstone for quality and democratic discourse. From day
one it was presumed and accepted by both Rep and Dems that television should be owned and controlled by the corporate rich. Sadly despite intentions PBS became the servant of even more elite corporate interests. The one thing that saves and make distinctive the USA is public access, community television sometimes very well used other times ignored by a docile and conditioned populace. Today the lower costs of digital has made such things as Free Speech TV and Democracy Now possible but this has been a long time coming.

In the United States there is a list of words that have been given the power to achieve total
silence. One such word is PATRIOTISM. An insane culture has been developed where the cowardly politicians are so scared of being called names and branded UnPatriotic that to paraphrase Tom Paine, it is like an opium wand that makes Congress sleep with obedience. Paine was in fact talking about the British Parliament of his day. What would he say about the US Congress and the political class today in its refusal to apply the power it has? Say for example on War... the US Congress has the power to stop any President from waging war. They choose not to. They lack the mental inclination to apply the powers they have. This is incest passing off for democracy. This is quite ironic by the way because under the US system the opposition gets to be involved in crafting legislation unlike the winner takes all say the British House of Commons where the opposition does not get to craft laws only block or vote in support of laws proposed by the government. In theory the US Congress has even more power to stop the executive branch from the power mad schemes of the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld. But the influence of the corporate money and the absence of vigorous debate in the US and the lack of a competing ideology between the two parties renders them mute. As Dewey said in American society the government is merely the shadow cast by Big Business.

Just look how blown away those Senators were by our British MP George Galloway. They did not know what bloody hit them!

Sadly George is now even old school for our British Parliament as a corporate culture of PR industry lead politics modelled after the Reagan/ Thatcher PR triumphs and the Clinton model of pro-corporate Dems has enabled Blair to fill the House of Commons with dozens of young Blair clones on the New Labour side of the House.

Still American politicians are so inarticulate and shallow in their thought process and
verbal performance. They are the McNuggets of political discourse.

Great documentaries on DVD for further ideas:

THE CORPORATION
http://www.thecorporation.com/
LIFE AND DEBT
http://www.lifeanddebt.org/
CONTROL ROOM
MANUFACTURING CONSENT

websites:
http://www.coldtype.net/
COUNTERPUNCH
Z-NET http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm
DEMOCRACY NOW http://www.democracynow.org/
ALTERNATIVE RADIO

On the book front from early in the 1990's in fact as the title suggest from 1992 my fave book by Noam Chomsky is YEAR 501:The Conquest Continues

also a very good guy in Canada is David Orchard
he is a conservative of the old school with progressive values. It is an interesting fact
that a hundred years ago a Liberal was someone who was into corporate and imperial conquest and conservatives were into the protection of national public assets.

http://www.davidorchard.com/online/2do-index.html

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Friday, October 21, 2005 6:45 PM

GUNRUNNER


Quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Furthermore in the American system non of the cabinet needs to be elected the entire cabinet can be drawn from people who have never stood for election... In the British and Canadian systems for example every member of the Cabinet is elected by a local constituency...

You are partially incorrect the President does select each cabinet member however the US Senate, which acts as the voice of the people, must confirm them. It’s not that different from how the Presidency its self is decided in reality.

EV Nova Firefly mod Message Board:
http://s4.invisionfree.com/GunRunner/index.php?act=idx

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Friday, October 21, 2005 6:51 PM

HOWARD


In theory you are right. But the vested
interests and the professional incest makes
confirmations to cabinet or supreme court,
mere TV show window dressing.

In theory you are right. But the corrupt culture
cancels it all out.

However the difference in cabinets is still
correct in what I say. There is no direct
democratic credentials of cabinet members in
the US executive branch in the way that in
the UK or Canada a member of cabinet in a
minister position has to be an MP elected by
the people in the town or area they represent.

A Senate confirmation is not the same as
having cabinet ministers forced to be MP's which
demands election directly by voters.

The US system makes no such obligation.

The sad truth is that the cancer of corporatist
culture and the wishie-washie technicrat persona
of today's gutless politicians has rendered
these differences rather academic. The triumph
of the Reaganites and of Thatcher was to cancel
out contrary ideology in domestic politics and
make ministers into a mere extension of the
culture and interests of the corporate board
room.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 7:09 PM

JUBELLATE


Nice theory, but I'm calling bullshit.

I'm sorry, but US politics is not some aberration of government gone wrong, but the inevitable result of pure democracy.

First, ok, I'll buy insulation. Bush is the model of insulation, a clueless oaf who plays a wonderful folksy man when courting voters and is an absolute novice beaurocrat. One thing he's done to further insulate himself is to shun to identify and ignore the reporters that ask him tough questions. This is self imposed, not a result of the position.

Next, the cabinet in the end is not responsible to talking to the public, but the Senate can subpeona any member to answer questions before the Senate, as they did with Condaleeza Rice. In the end, the president is the one that has to explain the rationalizations presented by his advisors to Congress. That the advisors also head various beaurocracies is unfortunate, but it takes alot of strength to bend certain beaurocracies to your will, so I'd say the advisors can't wholly control the direction of the departments they head. And as far as promoting more layers of insulation, its the nature that the president will listen to those who support him, regardless of whether they have an official capacity or not, so depriving the president a malleable cabinet is not a sure way to promote an effective presidency.

Ok, on to the media. As I've mentioned earlier, the media has to pay to play, and that payment is subtlety and softballing. Everyone's got to make their story and get their quote, so they play by the rules set down by the administration. And in this administration, hardballing the president will get you blacklisted from getting quotes. I'm sure theres plenty of studious journalists that want to trip up the president, but they're not gonna get their soundbyte so you just don't see it. Saying that they're cooing at the possibility of being close to power is to demean many respectable and frustrated journalists and is an unfair comparison.

As for the Democrats, its not a lack of will, but a lack of cogent ideas that leaves them constantly waffling. Unlike the republicans, which have consolidated and polarized their base, the Democrats can't seem to find a position that will satisfy their diversified interests and that leaves them with no argument to counter republicans except the idea the everything republicans want is against the interests of the democrats. This standoffish position is all they have and is a result of the bipolarness of the two party system, not some elite conspiracy determined to crush the paycheckers and meet all their goals of wild success.

Ok, onto PBS. TV is a whorehouse. I don't know how the BBC manages to promote rational discourse, but they are the exception in the world, not the rule. Because of the regulations associated with the distribution of frequencies and cost associated with promoting visual entertainment, TV will always be in the pocket of those with the most money. And most public stations in the majority of countries are farcical mimickry of governmental policies. Regulation and expense have killed the quality of the medium, but let's not assume that this is some grand conspiracy.

Ok, your last point seems to be that Congress in the US is a sheep to catchwords. Let's not mistake responsiveness to public opinion as a meekness to oppose the presidency. Every politician keeps an eye on how his consituents feel and frankly the vote to war was a response to constituaent demand. If anything, its the people of the US (the slight majority that gave this president power) that are to blame for our improper war. At the time, there was a general fear, stirred up by actual and imagined terrorism, that gave the president the support he needed to ask to declare war. Congress responded to this support by approving the President's request to go to war. But don't think for a minute that it was 77 senators courting favor with administration that led to this vote.

Basically I see that your entire argument is a veiled ad hominem on big business and elitism which you seem to think is a rampant problem in the US. I guarantee you there is plenty of vigorous debate, but it occurs out of sight.

The problems of the US are not the simple grocery list you've thrown together, so please don't insult us by thinking you and a handful of righteous thinking "little guy"ers could sweep away all that is wrong and fix it.

Thanks and have a shiny day

-Greg Thibeaux

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. – H.L. Mencken

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Friday, October 21, 2005 7:27 PM

HOWARD


For whom has American Democracy been pure?
Other than pure in the fascist sense.

For most of American history American-Indians,
Afro-Americans and Women had NO VOTE!

For the first 100 years of the USA only
White, Male, Protestant land/property owners
had the right to vote and the right to run.

Some pure democracy.

As for the notion that members of Congress are
merely responding to public demand. Well where
does that demand come from and what is it based
upon? Grotesque disinformation in the corporate
mass media that manufactures popular consent
and demand for appalling actions.

The majority of FOX NEWS viewiers still believe
that Saddam ordered 9/11!!

This is the incest of a single imperial class.
The media barons use their television channels
etc to brainwash the populace. So to germinate
reactionary inclinations among the people so
to provide a cover for the cowards in Congress.

John Kerry voted for the war not because there
were no alternative available ideas or
information. He voted for the war because he
is a loyal servant to the empire and wanted
to show his class based loyalty to the commander
in chief. While keeping his corporate lobbyists
well satisfied.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 7:42 PM

JUBELLATE


Oh, so now we're bringing in history along with current events.

I forgot that every other country has always allowed women and minorities to vote. How silly of me.

The people that believe Fox News want to believe Fox News, they're searching for reinforcement of their beliefs and would do so regardless. You can't force those that don't want top think for themselves to think. But, thats applicable to citizens of every country and hardly a uniquely American trait.

Public opinion providing a cover for elected officials decisions, what a horrible idea. Surely public officials should ignore the ignorant populace and base their decisions on their own righteous views. That would obviously make a better government.

John Kerry is an individual and as I do not know the man and nor, I think, do you, its hardly fair to throw and generalization on why he voted without some sort of factual basis.

Once again, you insist that everything that is wrong could be boiled down to two purpotrators, elitism and herding. I will continue to contend that this view is simplistic and wrong.

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. – H.L. Mencken

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Friday, October 21, 2005 8:28 PM

HOWARD


Yes I am firmly convinced that the primary
mindset of the imperial class is contempt
for the people. The evidence backs-up my
view. Decades of it! Contempt that you
seemingly share.

It is interesting how you describe those
denied the vote for generations as minorities
when in fact they amounted to a majority. It is
interesting how you view a rich minority as the
majority.

You are evading so many of my key points
and making misrepresented light of my other
points that I have not the inclination to
respond to you anymore. It is pointless.


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Saturday, October 22, 2005 1:51 AM

FURTHURCAT


howard as in zinn? wot's up with you? it's like i'm listening to me talk, but there's no sound coming out of my mouth. thanks for the great posts. do you think you could attack religion next ;-)

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:17 AM

CITIZEN


I think we're (that is the majority of the western world, lead by the 'land of the free') moving into a potentially very dark time.
The parallels between the days before the Nazis came to power in Germany and the current political climate of the US are staggering.
Quote:

Yesterday and Today: Nazis and the Righteous Right
If we take a look at pre-WWII Germany, we notice it has some things in common with the United States now. Start with the concept of exceptionality. Nazi ideology grew out of Germans’ belief that their country was uniquely privileged because it was uniquely valuable. This made them an exception to rules and norms. The average “Proud to Be an American” bumper-sticker-buyer believes the same thing. (I’m still waiting for some churchgoing patriot to notice that being born American is a gift of grace and to begin marketing “Humble to be an American” decals.) A belief in your country’s exceptionality takes you way out beyond the warm self-appreciation of patriotism; in naming your heritage “exceptional,” you cut your ties to the family of nations and set yourself above the rules. Our belief in our own exceptionality erodes the walls that hold back human greed, fear of otherness, and violence. Exceptionality makes the unthinkable possible, even reasonable.

Another family resemblance between Germany of the ‘20’s and ‘30’s and the Righteous Right of today is the feeling that somebody done us wrong. For Germany, the sense of being aggrieved was related to the famously vindictive Treaty of Versailles that settled the overt hostilities of World War I but left Germans with smoldering bitterness against what they saw as injustice and injury. The core resentment that energizes the swing toward right-wing “Christian” totalitarianism is the confusing, painful panic at seeing The Way and The Truth become one of many ways and many truths. As one pulpiteer expressed it, “having our culture become a subculture” is felt as a wound, an assault. On September 11th, the cultural assault on our inner landscape then manifested as a physical attack on our outer landscape, echoing the unsolved burning of the Reichstag building in 1933. Then, as now, terrorism coupled with an effective propaganda machine helped those in power to bring the country together while separating it from its civil rights. Once we feel ourselves to be under attack, are there any limits to what we will permit in the name of “self-defense?”


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8735.htm

Other Interesting articles:
Hunger for Dictatorship
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html
The Christian Right and the Rise of American Fascism
http://www.theocracywatch.org/chris_hedges_nov24_04.htm

I’m not saying that America is, or defiantly will be, a fascist state, btw. But the warning signs are there, for all to see, just as they were in the 1920’s/30’s.

Consider:
A nation that has indulged in state sponsored ‘witch trials’, interned innocent civilians in concentration camps, censors the media and peoples right to publicly question it’s leaders and has consistently shown disregard to Human rights through her foreign policy during the latter ¾ of the twentieth century. A nation that openly tortures her ‘enemies’.
What nation am I talking about?
Hitler’s Germany?
Stalin’s Russia?
Mugabe’s Zimbabwe?
No.
America. The ‘Land of the Free’. All these things have been done by the American nation over the last century.

It is only blind ignorance that assumes America has done no good in the world, as it is only blind ignorance that assumes America has done no bad, that her system represents ‘pure’ democracy, and that she really does have uncompromised freedom of speech.





More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 6:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


ANY system can be corrupted, but the extent and depth of today's putrefaction should be shaking people.

This is more than just "moths around the flame of power" or deference to the poll numbers or wanting to be invited to DC dinner parties. Even now, when the President's poll numbers are tanking and indictments have been made or are in the works, the Dems are remarkably silent and the media is solicitous to the President. Perhaps the best way to determine the root of the problem is to try to find a way to fix it. And I don't think that "public opinion" is the fundamental problem. I can name you three instances where the will of the people didn't move the media or politics, and one instance where the will of the people was manipulated:

1) President Clinton's impeachment. A large majority of people polled said it was much ado about nothing, and they gave Clinton high approval ratings. Nonetheless, we were treated to "all Monica all the time" coverage and the Capitol was consumed for months with the circus.

2) President Bush's war. Most people now believe that the war was a mistake. Nonetheless, there is a noticeable lack of hard questions from the Dems or hard reporting by the media.

3) The Presidential elections. TWO elections were clearly thrown, the second more obviously than the first. But only statisticians and wonks have commented; the Dems and the media are silent as the grave.

4) The build-up to invading Iraq. We were treated to the specter of thousands of liters of anthrax and the mushroom cloud, the close link between Saddam and the 9-11 terrorists. Frankly (and no matter what the bushies on this Board say) it was all a bunch of deliberate hogwash designed to stampede the public into supporting an invasion of a nation that posed absolutely no threat to us.


I suggest that while the public is gullible and manipulable, and while about 30% have their heads stuck up George's *ss, the vast majority of the American public are NOT the problem with American policy.

---------------------------

More later

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:45 AM

SEVENPERCENT


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:


2) President Bush's war. Most people now believe that the war was a mistake. Nonetheless, there is a noticeable lack of hard questions from the Dems or hard reporting by the media.




The Dems really shot themselves in the foot here when the war first began, and I think that has prevented them from speaking out about it now. Let me clarify-

When 9/11 first happened, the Dems (similar to the rest of the nation) got caught with their pants down. Suddenly, through nothing Bush even did on his own, the Pres was looking at an approval rating hovering in the 90%'s. The Dems didn't know what to do. They were already hurting from the election results, and there were a few seats up in 2002 just around the corner. So, they did a very stupid thing - they voted to go along with whatever was popular at the moment (i.e., Bush's war machine) even though it went against their beliefs and sheer common sense.

Now, the war has gone and become a miserable failure, which anyone with even an ounce of sense could see coming. But what can the Dems do now? Any line of really hard questioning that they do will eventually come back on them to "wait a minute, you voted for it too!" Currently, the GOP political machine is in total freefall (DeLay, Frist, Rove, etc.) and Bush is losing his political capital. It isn't in their best interests to hammer Bush on the war - not yet at least. Because they need the GOP machine to break down in order to insure a Dem advantage in the White House.

That's why I think the Dems have been quiet. Which, IMO, is a complete mistake. Now, when the country need real leaders who can stand up and say "yeah, we screwed up; time to fix it," they aren't getting them because the Dems are too timid. But I think that may turn around. A few of them are beginning to come around, and I think that if Hammer Tom goes down, or Rove gets indicted, you'll see a lot more bravery. And I think the media is starting to wake up also. I saw a lot of good things from them during Katrina, and if you check out this site:

http://www.newshounds.us/

you'll notice that Fox news is doing some heavy backpedalling.

I would LOVE the Dems to suddenly unload with a massive shot of political courage, but I don't think it'll happen for awhile, and I really do think that is a leftover from 9/11 and the war push.

Just 7%'s 2c.

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:13 AM

SEVENPERCENT


Quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
John Kerry voted for the war not because there
were no alternative available ideas or
information.


I disagree. I think (as I just posted a few mins ago) there wasn't enough alternative information to make him question his political career against a President with a 90% approval rating. Which was a mistake, and I think if you asked him about it today he'd tell you the same. And technically he didn't vote for the war, he authorized force when all options were played out, which he later changed his vote on when Bush went a different way thatn what he believed his vote implied. That act in and of itself invalidates your theory. It became the case Bush used against him as a flip-flopper.

Quote:

He voted for the war because he
is a loyal servant to the empire


Is he John Kerry or Grand Moff Tarkin? See his changing vote, in my above response.

Quote:

and wanted
to show his class based loyalty to the commander
in chief. While keeping his corporate lobbyists
well satisfied.



Lobbyists are a fact of American politics. I believe you are British? So you might not understand how the system works (for good or ill). Lobbyists try to get you to vote their way, often having the very problematic side effect of bringing good things to your state. Look at this example. Lets say State A and State B are both heavily forested states. The timber lobby wants to build a logging camp somewhere, but it will be bad for the environment. How does a Senator from State A vote? If he no-votes it, the timber industry goes to State B, and he has cost his state valuable jobs (which his opponents in the next term will use against him). If he yes-votes it, he becomes a "puppet of the timber industry" to the environmentalists, who use that against him in the next election.

Is that right? No, but that's how it works. To be critical of a politician for working with lobbyists is unfair. That's why they have rules for it (which, IMO, should an elected official be caught violating, he should be immediately removed from office, not just handed a fine or removed from a committee).

I don't think class comes into this in the way that you suggest. I think that elected officials share commonalities based on social class (and there is a class war in the US, I don't disagree), but I don't believe social class had anything to do with Kerry's support for GWB on this issue.


7%

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 11:35 AM

JUBELLATE


Quote:

It is only blind ignorance that assumes America has done no good in the world, as it is only blind ignorance that assumes America has done no bad, that her system represents ‘pure’ democracy, and that she really does have uncompromised freedom of speech.


believe it or not, free speech is not a requirement for pure democracy, because pure democracy allows for tyranny of the majority. Now the US is not a pure democracy because of some technical issues regarding a constitution, but what I meant in my statement is that people's overall will is not thwarted by government. Indeed many decisions are made in response to public outcry or approval.

Elitism suggests that people's desires are ignored in favor of upper class goals, which is not the case in most situations.

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. – H.L. Mencken

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 12:28 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by JubelLate:
believe it or not, free speech is not a requirement for pure democracy


I never said it was.
Quote:

because pure democracy allows for tyranny of the majority.

As opposed to tyranny of the minority, corporate tyranny? Locking innocent civilians up in concentration camps?
But who says the American system isn't open to Tyranny of the majority?
Quote:

In this essay Mill also warns of a second danger to liberty, which democracies are prone to, namely, the tyranny of the majority. In a representative democracy, if you can control the majority (and get them to vote for, and elect, your candidates) then you can control everyone (because your candidates, once "democratically elected", will pass whatever laws are needed for this, as was done by Hitler's agents in the 1930s in Nazi Germany and seems to be happening today in the U.S.A.).

http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/jsmill.htm
Quote:

IT is in the examination of the exercise of thought in the United States that we clearly perceive how far the power of the majority surpasses all the powers with which we are acquainted in Europe. Thought is an invisible and subtle power that mocks all the efforts of tyranny. At the present time the most absolute monarchs in Europe cannot prevent certain opinions hostile to their authority from circulating in secret through their dominions and even in their courts. It is not so in America; as long as the majority is still undecided, discussion is carried on; but as soon as its decision is irrevocably pronounced, everyone is silent, and the friends as well as the opponents of the measure unite in assenting to its propriety. The reason for this is perfectly clear: no monarch is so absolute as to combine all the powers of society in his own hands and to conquer all opposition, as a majority is able to do, which has the right both of making and of executing the laws.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch15.htm

Quote:

Elitism suggests that people's desires are ignored in favor of upper class goals, which is not the case in most situations.

A particularly 'intelligent' way of doing it would be to make the populace 'want' the upper class goals (thats the real meaning of tyranny of the majority) .
Just throwing that out there, more as a cautionary measure, rather than anything else.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 10:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Elitism suggests that people's desires are ignored in favor of upper class goals, which is not the case in most situations.
I just gave you three examples of how a people's wishes were exactly ignored. Can you give me relevant examples to the contrary? I'm having a hard time understanding your statement.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 4:55 AM

JUBELLATE


[quote[ I just gave you three examples of how a people's wishes were exactly ignored. Can you give me relevant examples to the contrary? I'm having a hard time understanding your statement.




Anti-Trust Laws
Regulation
minimum wage

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. – H.L. Mencken

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 5:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Mmm... okay. but you said "in MOST situations". So, here are several more where the will of the people was screamingly ignored at the Federal level:

Globalization (GATT, NAFTA, CAFTA)- Not sure how old you are, but Ross Perot got 20% polling numbers- and rising- on an anti-NAFTA campaign.

Illegal immigration. Most American? AGAINST.

Environmental protection. People are against the Bush rollback. They know that "Clean Skies" and "Heatlhy Forests" mean the opposite. They oppose Alaskan and coastal drilling and they worry about global warming.

Coporate executives pillaging their own companies: Corporations scamming their investors (Enron), ducking pension obligations (UAL), and funneling money upwards really stick in the craw.

Deregulation: De-regulation has been for the most part a fiasco with power companies and the media and a mixed experience for telecomm and airlines. Where such moves have been open to public comment (for example, the FCC under Michael Powell) they have received a torrent of objections which were promptly... ignored.

Eminent domain for private (corporate) projects: People are so strongly against this concept that a number of states promptly created laws barring this action after the Supreme Court decided in favor.

Sexual health care: Most people are for them, but our Federal government is strongly against.
www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp


------------------------------------
BY the way, this is what people currently think of the three things you pointed out:

Anti-trust laws:
In the exemplar of DOJ v. Microsoft settlement, many states rejected it as too lax www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/02/BU77981.DTL as did comments to the DOJ by a vote of 2:1 www.computeruser.com/news/02/02/20/news1.html
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-847355.html

Regulation: By a margin of more than 2:1, people think that environmental regulation should be increased. (Harris poll Oct 13 2005, I can't get the link to work)

The minimum wage: The Senate just denied a raise in minimum wage which remains at 5.15 an hour, the official rate since 1997. It is now 4.15 an hour in today's dollars. www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774473.html Here is what Americans are thinking-
Quote:

In November 2004, voters in both Florida and Nevada approved constitutional amendments to increase the minimum wage to $6.15, with automatic cost-of-living increases. In both cases, the measure was approved by substantial margins: 71 to 29 percent in Florida and 68 to 32 in Nevada. Nationally, a 2001 poll for the Christian Science Monitor found that 75 percent of Americans support an increase in the minimum wage. A 2002 Lake Snell Perry poll reported that 77 percent of likely voters support raising the minimum wage from $5.15 to $8 per hour, and 79 percent favor regular cost-of-living adjustments to the minimum wage.
www.stateaction.org/issues/issue.cfm/issue/MinimumWage.xml

-------------------
I don't believe you've made your case that the government follows the will of the people in most instances. But we could exchange tit for tat and not get anywhere. What I really found striking just looking up these poll numbers is that I nver saw many of them in the press. For example, did it ever make the news that the Senate voted against a minimum wage increase or that people are strongly in favor? Somehow people manage to hang on to their views (on Clinton, globalization, environmental protection, minimum wage, sexual health services, monopoly-busting etc.) despite the torrent of advertizing, "news", think-tank opinion and government/ corporate spin in the opposite direction. Despite the fact that we see almost no reflection of our concerns and views in the media. Since we're discussing media, corporations and the government I think it would be more revealing to look at cases where the media and the government have failed to reflect our will.


Please don't think they give a shit.

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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 4:52 AM

TWEEK128


Perhaps an impertinent question, but:

Was desegregation against the will of the people?

Also, Media don't generally belong in the same league with the Political "class." I'd imagine there's a running IQ differential approaching the high 20's in favor of the politicos. Not that the media-types don't think it's quite the opposite and conduct themselves accordingly.

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Monday, August 7, 2023 6:23 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Max Blumenthal an American author and blogger wrote for Media Matters for America.



How the Allman Brothers made Jimmy Carter president, according to new rock history

https://www.aol.com/news/allman-brothers-made-jimmy-carter-142152821.h
tml



Michael Reagan: GOP presidential debate will not be great again

https://triblive.com/opinion/michael-reagan-gop-presidential-debate-wi
ll-not-be-great-again
/

What are we doing in Africa?

We trained people involved in the Niger Coup, among others.

You’ll be amazed to learn that the FOUR STAR GENERAL I question here leads America’s military affairs in Africa.

We seem…..adrift & confused


https://twitter.com/mattgaetz/status/1688562136589778944

Today I'm introducing legislation to ABOLISH USAID.

Taxpayer dollars are being wasted to fund radical leftist propaganda in foreign countries.

The American people will not tolerate government-funded degeneracy at home, and we certainly will not accept its force-feeding abroad under Old Glory!

https://twitter.com/RepMattGaetz/status/1686416998685708289


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