REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

any christians here in this entire site please stand up

POSTED BY: LEELU7777
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 17:15
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Monday, March 6, 2006 2:30 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

but not until after we're dead, are facing Him, and it's too late for anyone to change anything.




I think that that is really the only certainty that anyone will agree with, regardless of what they believe. Namely, we will find out when we die.


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

The Bible says that "without faith it's impossible to please God". I believe that's why He gives us a multitude of things which point toward His existence, but not the sort of thing that most people would embrace as "proof".




The problem with lots of things that point to the existence of anything, is that one day they might be explained by everyday processes. Just look at anything that science can explain. At one point in time, it was all "proof" of the existence of god. Yet now it's just everyday stuff.


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

He also promises that if we seek Him with all our hearts, He will be found. (He doesn't hide from those who genuinely seek Him on His terms -- truly repentant and needy of His grace.)




The problem with the statement "on His terms" is that when we seek, we seek on our own terms, in our own way. So, the only logical conclusion is that only if you believe already (if only subconsciously) you will find "Him." Otherwise, you won't find "Him"; you are damned.


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

Although, I imagine that most people wouldn't believe it even if God walked the earth in human form and did miraculous signs which no human could ever do.




Historical documents show that throughout time, people were around that could do miraculous things that no-one else could do. But, the problem with it, is that we know that it wasn't miraculous at all, but just something that they didn't understand at the time.

I forget who said it, but there is a quote something like, "With any sufficiently advanced technology one can seem like a god."


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

Oops. Wait a minute! He did do that, and most people, even faced with these miraculous things done right before their very eyes, still refused to believe.




Um, well, there is no actual documentation that shows that he did do these things aside from scripture.

Also, considering what I just said above, among the fact that there are many people the question if a historical Jesus even existed, I think that you're going to have to do better than just state that he did these things.


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

Really shows the hardness our stubborn, rebellious human hearts, doesn't it? (And I include myself in that category, as well.)




Assuming that Jesus existed and what the bible said is true, how exactly did everyone back then see him do these things? After all, he only did these things for a few years and everyone walked back then. Thus, this is hardly mass distribution of proof that he was the son of god and everyone should believe.

So, I really don't see how you get to the conclusion that people back then were really suborn because they all saw it. They didn't all see it.


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

In summary, I believe there are plenty of indicators throughout creation which point to a sovereign Creator (and also that He's spoken to us through His word, the Bible), but "proof" that would convince a skeptic (or actually any of us apart from His grace)? Probably not in this life.




Point of fact, the bible was written by men, not god. And even then, the first books of the bible were not written by the people that they are attributed to. They were written by the students of the students of the students of the... of the Apostle.

Basically, play telephone over decades through a lot of people and you get the first books of the bible. Doesn't exactly imply the words of Jesus to me. In fact, they probably are quite different given that we can't get it right when it's only 12 people sitting in a circle over less than a minute.


Just a question, have you ever read anything by Bishop John Shelby Spong?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, March 6, 2006 2:36 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

It is vanity that leads man to defend his or her religion. And vanity that leads him to deny the existence of god.




Um, how did you get there?


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Buying a ticket to England is not proof that England exists; only proof that someone sold you a ticket there.




I think you missed the point. The point was to use the ticket to see England yourself.


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

And I don’t think that it is anyone else’s business who I pray for or don’t pray for.




It's a respect thing. You should respect the wishes of others. And if they don't want you to do something, then you should respect that and not do it. Especially when it is something that is so very optional like praying for them.

Respect and love for the fellow man. That's in the bible right?

But, what was that about vanity? Do you really think that because you are you that you have the right to do something for people against there wishes?

That's pure hubris.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, March 6, 2006 2:44 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

"With any sufficiently advanced technology one can seem like a god."

Sounds similar too:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. by Arthur Charles Clark

Or it could be from Star Trek where Jean Luc Picard met the primative Vulcan people and they though he was their God.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Monday, March 6, 2006 2:57 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
It's a respect thing. You should respect the wishes of others. And if they don't want you to do something, then you should respect that and not do it. Especially when it is something that is so very optional like praying for them.

Respect and love for the fellow man. That's in the bible right?

But, what was that about vanity? Do you really think that because you are you that you have the right to do something for people against there wishes?

That's pure hubris.

Hubris is telling someone not to practice their religion, simply because you don’t believe in their religion. The Bible says to pray for people as well. If my religion means that I should pray for people, as long as those prayers don’t interfere with your life then why do you get offended if I practice my religion? What makes you believe that I’m disrespectful if I choose not to stop believing the way you claim that I shouldn’t believe? How am I being disrespectful if I choose to not to stop practicing a religion that doesn’t affect you at all, simply because you said I should?

Think about that for a little while and then maybe you’ll understand this:

It is vanity that leads man to defend his or her religion. And vanity that leads him to deny the existence of god.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, March 6, 2006 3:09 PM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
The problem with the statement "on His terms" is that when we seek, we seek on our own terms, in our own way. So, the only logical conclusion is that only if you believe already (if only subconsciously) you will find "Him." Otherwise, you won't find "Him"; you are damned.


Well, who sets the terms for how one is found? The seeker or the one being sought?

For example, if you were seeking me, you could search for me the way you wanted to, and likely not find me. If you sought me the way I directed you to find me, you'd find me a whole lot easier.

God tells us how to find Him in the Bible. Naturally, if one doesn't believe that the Bible is true (and God's word), following its advice would be kind of pointless.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Um, well, there is no actual documentation that shows that he did do these things aside from scripture.


Exactly.

But, while I wasn't attempting to argue the verity of the scriptures in this thread, I was just pointing out that if one believes the Bible is true (as I do), then it clearly shows that even miraculous signs weren't enough to convince most people -- and not people who heard about the miracles (or reports of the miracles several centuries removed), but people who saw them with their own eyes as they happened.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Assuming that Jesus existed and what the bible said is true, how exactly did everyone back then see him do these things? After all, he only did these things for a few years and everyone walked back then. Thus, this is hardly mass distribution of proof that he was the son of god and everyone should believe.


Yes, but He did them over a relatively small area, and word of mouth apparently spread quickly. If you saw with your own eyes, someone raise a person who'd been dead for three days back to life, wouldn't you tell everyone you knew?

According to the scriptures, Jesus healed massive numbers of people. If there was someone miraculously healing everyone who came to Him (qualifier: "believing"), don't you think word would spread?

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, I really don't see how you get to the conclusion that people back then were really suborn because they all saw it. They didn't all see it.


Yes, they didn't all see it. I was referring to those who actually did -- and I'm sure their numbers were significant given just the nature of the healings recorded in scripture (see previous paragraph).

There are other instances in Old Testament of blatant unbelief in the face of clearly miraculous actions from God. Look at the miracles God performed in delivering the Israelities from Egypt, and yet the Bible says that they were hard-hearted and didn't believe. They grumbled and complained and showed unbelief -- which is why all but a handful died in the wilderness and never got into the promised land.

And unlike Jesus's miracles, according to Scripture, all of Israel (and probably Egypt, too) saw God's ten plagues -- and all of Israel saw the parting of the Red Sea, the daily provision of Manna (then quail), the guidance by the pillar of fire/cloud, etc. And still they complained in unbelief.

To me, that says that mankind is a pretty stubborn lot.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Just a question, have you ever read anything by Bishop John Shelby Spong?


No. Haven't heard of him.

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Monday, March 6, 2006 3:56 PM

OMEGADARK


SigmaNunki

Quote:

just stated that I want to see the proof


I know what you are saying, even times as a believer I have desperately wished for such proof. I will have to say, I do not know of such 'proof'. What makes me 'see' the proof is studying the world. The absurd intricacies of life (ex. the human cell). It amazes me that such things can work so smoothly with out conscious effort(for the most part). Thus, it makes me believe something greater is the maker of such a system. There is proof if you believe it...that's the gift and the problem....

If God truly existed, and he gave us freewill, then he would not expose himself to such a degree that there would be incontrovertible proof that he is around. If so, there would be no need for faith and it would ultimately limit the extent of our own will to choose ( I know I might have made some believers angry with this because I can then see them saying, "What about Jesus..." email me if you like to yell at me...its in the profile)


Quote:

Just stating something doesn't make it true


I have to agree again, just saying it doesn't make it so either...except that the world is made up puppies, that upsets me that you don't believe that...

Does this help the discussion or give proof? Nope, I just agree that it would be great if there was proof AND that those who say there is just say what it is simply and succinctly...

In the end I believe this is just a good and fun intellectual exercise...

-OD


I love cookies and puppies, their delicious

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Monday, March 6, 2006 4:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by OmegaDark:


If God truly existed, and he gave us freewill, then he would not expose himself to such a degree that there would be incontrovertible proof that he is around.

With human progenitors on this planet it is referred to as absentee fathers or dead-beat dads.

Seriously, why the game?
Or is it all really like in "Constantine"?

Meaningless side note: I've challenged the Devil to serious mortal combat many times. The wuss never even sent a reply. What a dousche.

Somewhat cynical Chrisisall

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Monday, March 6, 2006 4:17 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seriously, why the game?
Or is it all really like in "Constantine"?

I hope so. Because that was awesome! Rachel Weisz is one of my favorite actresses. And I sooo want to be John Constantine, dark cynical anti-hero reluctantly fighting evil per god's design, which is why I don’t do crack.


Meaningless response: Devils are so inconsiderate.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, March 6, 2006 4:57 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Meaningless response: Devils are so inconsiderate.



INCONSIDERATE?!?!

The only cool devil was Darkness from "Legend", the RL Devil is a PUNK, man, APUNK!!!!!!

Every time he tries to invade my dreams, I do that aware thing, and alter the dream so I can KICK HIS ASS!!!!

And Finn, please, as with most other threads, this is not the place for levity; try to keep it on a little more serious level, huh?

"I hate it when you do that.." Chrisisall, sourse of Weisz/Mummy 2 quotes 24 hours a day...

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Monday, March 6, 2006 5:11 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Hubris is telling someone not to practice their religion, simply because you don’t believe in their religion. The Bible says to pray for people as well. If my religion means that I should pray for people, as long as those prayers don’t interfere with your life then why do you get offended if I practice my religion? What makes you believe that I’m disrespectful if I choose not to stop believing the way you claim that I shouldn’t believe? How am I being disrespectful if I choose to not to stop practicing a religion that doesn’t affect you at all, simply because you said I should?

Think about that for a little while and then maybe you’ll understand this:




I find it interesting that you tell me to think about that for a little while when you clearly didn't do the same.

Let's say that your religion is real and praying will actually do something (Quite frankly, if you don't believe that praying will do something, then why are you doing it in the first place?) So, your actions will effect me now won't they?

And I clearly didn't say I wanted to stop you from believing. I just stated that if I don't want you to pray for me that you should respect that and not pray for me.

Remember in FF (Train Job I think), when Inara told Book to pray for Mal. Book said (paraphrase), I don't think that he'd appreciate that. Meaning, it's my religion to do so, but I'm going to respect the wishes of Mal not to do it for him.

This is all I'm saying. Respect other peoples wishes.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, March 6, 2006 5:18 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@Cartoon:
I'm just going to sum up what you've written as you are not arguing from a historical perspective, but using the bible completely. You also seem to think that the bible is the only thing that needs to be argued from as you seem to be ignoring history completely.

I will state explicitly now, that if you only use the bible to prove the bible, I will not continue this conversation. This is called circular logic. You cannot use something to prove something.

You have also failed to give me this proof that everyone keeps talking about.

*sigh*

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, March 6, 2006 5:26 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@OmegaDark:
Well, um, I don't really know what to say. We seemed to have come to a standstill. Not sure where our discussion can go from here.

I'll just say this because, well, this is the first time I've had this discusion with someone and it hasn't exploded. Thanks for keeping a potentially explosive discussion, non-explosive.

I look forward to further conversations

(Hopefully the feelings are mutual )

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, March 6, 2006 5:31 PM

SAMEERTIA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
[BICONSIDERATE?!?!

The only cool devil was Darkness from "Legend", the RL Devil is a PUNK, man, APUNK!!!!!!



Well, yah. But that was Tim Curry, and he's just dang cool no matter what!


I, too, think that no matter what your religion, you should respect the wishes of others not to pray for them.

Extreme example: Would you want a Devil-Cult worshipper praying for you to come over to the 'dark-side'?
No, probably not.
I wouldn't presume that others want to believe as I believe, and thus would not pray that they be 'saved' through my faith.

Now, in my mind, that falls into a different category than praying that someone returns safely from a journey, or that they are healed from their illness.

Praying that they will change their beliefs to become like you is hubris.
Praying that they will heal, become stronger, etc, is caring.

Am I making any sense here?

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Monday, March 6, 2006 5:44 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by SameErtia:

Am I making any sense here?




Certainly

But, this can be a slippery slope. Say someone has cancer, do we wish him/her to have the best quality of life for as long as possible, or a quick painless death when the time come, or...

I know that cancer is a rather extreme example. But, even with lesser examples, where is the line when it is ok just to do it?

Not trying to be a prick, I'm just trying to illustrate that the issue is very complex when it comes to the caring thing. And simply asking whether they want you to do something is really easy to do.

IMO, erring on the side of caution is best practice. And asking someone won't hurt (as long as it isn't 3 times a day everyday ).

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, March 6, 2006 6:08 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Let's say that your religion is real and praying will actually do something (Quite frankly, if you don't believe that praying will do something, then why are you doing it in the first place?) So, your actions will effect me now won't they?

So you’re superstitious. Well, that’s not my problem.

And bring the devil cult prayers on, I say. I can take any prayer you can dish out.
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Finn, please, as with most other threads, this is not the place for levity; try to keep it on a little more serious level, huh?

Sorry. I’m not usually like this.

I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die, twice, just to figure that out. Like the book says “The Lord works in mysterious ways.” Some people like it; some people don't.
-- John Constantine.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, March 6, 2006 6:08 PM

OMEGADARK


SigmaNunki

Yep, the feeling is definitely mutual

and

Quote:

This is all I'm saying. Respect other peoples wishes.


I am sure you find this funny too, that both you and Finn are asking the same thing...Finn saying respect that he wants to pray for you and you, that he should respect that you don't want to be prayed for...lol there's no solution to this one other than Finn pray for Sigma and don't tell em and Sigma know that Finn isn't praying for you...

I am too tired to read all of what has been said...that's just my .02

CHRISISALL

Why the game? Well an honest answer: It's not a game its just the way it is.

My answer: Who the heck freaking knows! Not I...but I'll ask Him...


But, heck, sometimes it definitely feels like it would just be easier if He just popped out from behind the clouds to explain something....but to this day I am still waiting for that...I hope you have better luck...


-OD

X

(my signature becasue I can't read or write)

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Monday, March 6, 2006 7:07 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

So you’re superstitious. Well, that’s not my problem.




How do you get that from what I wrote? Reading into things, things that I didn't say I gather. Then again, you seem to be doing that in this thread, so just more of the same.

But, you're right. Whether I'm superstitious or not is not your problem. Then again, whether it is a problem for me or not, isn't my problem either. It's just the way I live.

But, what is my problem, is that you keep not reading what I wrote. Well, no matter.

Good day to you. Perhaps we will speak again on another thread.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, March 6, 2006 7:09 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by OmegaDark:

But, heck, sometimes it definitely feels like it would just be easier if He just popped out from behind the clouds to explain something....but to this day I am still waiting for that...I hope you have better luck...




That would be cool wouldn't it

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, March 6, 2006 7:13 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

And bring the devil cult prayers on, I say. I can take any prayer you can dish out.
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Finn, please, as with most other threads, this is not the place for levity; try to keep it on a little more serious level, huh?

Sorry. I’m not usually like this.


Actually, it's fun to see ya funny.

And I agree, bring it! I can de-stabilize any negative cult prayers aimed at me.
Love it all, that's the key!!Ha ha!
*Thumbs his nose at things others tremble at*

Chrisisall, checking his ouija board to see if he has incurred bad vibes from demonic sources over previous statements...

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Monday, March 6, 2006 7:27 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But, you're right. Whether I'm superstitious or not is not your problem. Then again, whether it is a problem for me or not, isn't my problem either. It's just the way I live.

So if it’s a problem for you, then it’s not your problem? See, now that's classic. That's the SigmaNunki we all know and love.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, March 6, 2006 8:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Present the truth of the gospel in a heartfelt manner, but don't become defensive if people reject it. People have been rejecting it from the dawn of time, and it would be presumptuous on our parts to think we can present it any better than even God's own son (who was rejected, too).
Ah... er... unless your "dawn of time" is a lot later than my "dawn of time", that would make this rejection of truth go back anywhere from 50,000 to 3 million years ago. Just think of all those people, rejecting the word of God.

Sigh.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Monday, March 6, 2006 11:47 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by OmegaDark:
But, heck, sometimes it definitely feels like it would just be easier if He just popped out from behind the clouds to explain something....but to this day I am still waiting for that...I hope you have better luck...


He did, they got it on film in Monty Python and the search for the holy grail:

God: What are you doing now?
King Arthur: Averting our eyes, oh Lord.
God: Well, don't. It's just like those miserable psalms, always so depressing.
God: Every time I try to talk to someone it's "sorry this" and "forgive me that" and "I'm not worthy"...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:50 AM

OMEGADARK


Hahahahahaha!



Quote:

He did, they got it on film in Monty Python and the search for the holy grail:


Good point!!!


-OD




X

(I can't read or write)

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 4:44 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I'm just going to sum up what you've written as you are not arguing from a historical perspective, but using the bible completely. You also seem to think that the bible is the only thing that needs to be argued from as you seem to be ignoring history completely.


Well, there is no historical evidence(or very little that I'm aware of) to back up the miracles of the Bible*.

(*Although, I did recently see something where deep water subs have found intact, ancient chariot wheels on the bottom of the Red Sea -- and coral which has formed in the shape of long-since-deteroriated chariot chasis -- which is something of a coincidence when one considers that the Bible has claimed the Egyptian army was drowned when God closed the Red Sea on them over 3500 years ago.)

So, in response to your point about circular logic, I was not attempting to use the Bible to prove the Bible (or the miracles reported therein -- which I do believe actually occured), but that even when God has revealed Himself miraculously (by His own account), most people still stubbornly, chose not to believe.

So,it's my conclusion that "evidence" will never convince the people who don't want to believe in the first place. That was the point I was trying to make -- not to prove or disprove the verity of scriptures.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You have also failed to give me this proof that everyone keeps talking about.


Well, I'm not "everyone" -- and I have stated from the start that it is highly unlikely that God's existence can be "proven". As such, I'm not obligated to prove something which I have maintained all along probably can't be subjectively proven.


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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 5:40 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

He did, they got it on film in Monty Python and the search for the holy grail:


They also got it on film in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, when God revealed his most important of words:
"Station..."

They melvined me Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 6:18 AM

OMEGADARK


Quote:

So,it's my conclusion that "evidence" will never convince the people who don't want to believe in the first place.



You summed it up right there.



Just one thing I wanted to say about the historical aspect:

It is very counter-productive to argue from a historical perspective in the first place. The bibles intention was never to give you a historical account for the sake of history, but to give you something you can use for your life today, right now, here, the moment...

so many of those who would argue against it based on history are missing the point. Even if history does prove the stories true or false, nothing will change the message or intention or truth.

Quote:

ancient chariot wheels on the bottom of the Red Sea


Althought it is pretty sweet to find out things like that just mentioned!!

-OD

X

(I can't read or write)

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 6:48 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by OmegaDark:
Althought it is pretty sweet to find out things like that just mentioned!!


Yes, it certainly causes even believers to do a double-take and say, "Hey, what?!?!"

Wish I could find out where that report was. It was fairly recent. Several people I know also saw it. As organized and detail-oriented as I have always been, unfortunately, I do not footnote my entire life and every bit of information I run across. It would be nice if we had search engines for our brains, wouldn't it? (Although, some would argue that mine is only a few kb in size anyhow, so why bother?)

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 7:49 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
Yes, it certainly causes even believers to do a double-take and say, "Hey, what?!?!"


Not that your interested in anything I have to say, me being an evil Islamic terrorist heathen and such but I knew this.

There's also a scientific explanation, the sea did “part”, at around the time recorded in the Bible, due to a huge volcanic eruption on the island of Thera (Santorini) that wiped out the Cretan civilisation (the guys with the Minotaur from Greek myth).

Also, you should probably know that the original Hebrew Bible account puts the parting of the water in the Yam Suph (Reed Sea), not the Red Sea, which is believed to be an ancient name for Lake Manzala, a body of water in the North East Nile delta.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:37 AM

PACRAT


oh ouch!! I hurt myself laughing and fell on the floor (gravity really sucks sometimes!! heehee).

I have to say that this thread has been very entertaining and thought provoking both pro and con christianity. But after having taken required courses addressing ancient cultures/religions, I have to remain on the fence. Not an atheist, but not going to lie and claim to be a christian. I abide by my parents/in-laws beliefs and decided long ago that organized religon was not for me. My children did attend a "non-demonational" sunday school when they were young, and my daughter opted to join AOG when she was in high school. My son is like me, agnostic, a higher power may or may not have been involved in the creation of the planet and stars, but that is as far as it goes. My husband (who refers to himself as a recovering catholic) is of the same mind. We have found the quickest way to start a family fight that never gets resolved is to discuss religion. My roman catholic in-laws have quit insisting I attend mass, and I quit making tacky jokes concerning the pope, and we get along great. Live and let live is my motto, and for the most part, keeps me out of trouble.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:18 AM

SIGMANUNKI


You say this:

Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

I was not attempting to use the Bible to prove the Bible




Then this:

Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

but that even when God has revealed Himself miraculously (by His own account)




These two things just don't jive.

You say that you are not using the bible to prove the bible. Yet the bible is really the only place in which it is stated that god exists; "His own account".

Then you just make the statement that god has revealed himself.

So, basically, your logic is that god exists because it has been shown in his own account. So, that logic is bible == bible. Yes, we know that the bible is the bible () but that says nothing about the original question.


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

, most people still stubbornly, chose not to believe.

So,it's my conclusion that "evidence" will never convince the people who don't want to believe in the first place. That was the point I was trying to make




When that "evidence" is riddled with logical fallacies, then I wouldn't expect anyone to come to the same conclusions.

If you just state that it is a matter of faith and cannot be shown by any real means, then I cannot nor will I argue that. Because that is my opinion of the whole thing as well

But, if you state evidence that could easily be explained by other non-supernatural means, then I'm going to have to say something.

Your chariot chasis example is a perfect example of this. To say that they are there and that implies something, or is evidence of something is rather fallacious. One must show that what one is getting at is at the very least the most probable solution before stating something like this.


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You have also failed to give me this proof that everyone keeps talking about.


Well, I'm not "everyone" -- and I have stated from the start that it is highly unlikely that God's existence can be "proven". As such, I'm not obligated to prove something which I have maintained all along probably can't be subjectively proven.




I probably confused you with another poster in this thread. Sorry

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:18 AM

BARNSTORMER


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by leelu7777:
yes there is proof its just people dont want to belive they want to be incontrol of everything instead of beliving in a higher being that loves us more that we can bear to the point of death. so they choose no to pay attenion or see that hes all around us and yes I know I sound crazy but this must be said.




Actually the proof that you seem to be pointing to requires belief before it makes sense. The problem with this is that that is no proof at all.

Proof cannot be caste aside. It is proof after all.


But, instead of just stating things without anything to back up your claims (point of fact, this really irritates me), why not provide said proof?

If it really is proof, then we'll all be believers just by reading this thread. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. That is a logical conclusion.

----

Since you have it all figured out Sigma, why not prove to all the dumbass religous types that God does not exist?

What proof do you have that your so certain?



Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:34 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by OmegaDark:

It is very counter-productive to argue from a historical perspective in the first place. The bibles intention was never to give you a historical account for the sake of history, but to give you something you can use for your life today, right now, here, the moment...




May I assume that you're getting at, the bible is along the lines of a "moral guide." If so, I agree to a large extent. I say large extent, because there are a number of passages in the bible that I think should be ignored. eg Exodus 31:14

I don't have a bible here, but from what I remember () it basically states that if you work on Sunday, you will be put to death. Not exactly a statement that gives the warm fuzzies.


IMO, all religions are the same, they just go about it in a different way.

(Yes, I've used exageration in the above. By all, I mean vast majority that I've studied.)

What I mean by this, is that at the core of all religions, they want people to do the same things eg Don't murder, don't steal, don't... And that the tactics differ among the different religions to get people to actually do (or don't do) these things.

For instance, Christanity generally promots that if you don't do x, you'll go to Hell for all eternity. Wicca enforces this with the rule of three. Etc.

Many paths to the same objective


Quote:

Originally posted by OmegaDark:

Even if history does prove the stories true or false, nothing will change the message or intention or truth.




"or true"?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:36 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:

Since you have it all figured out Sigma, why not prove to all the dumbass religous types that God does not exist?

What proof do you have that your so certain?




What gave you the impression that I "had everything figured out"?

And I'd appreciate a more civil tone in your reply, please.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:40 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Your chariot chasis example is a perfect example of this. To say that they are there and that implies something, or is evidence of something is rather fallacious. One must show that what one is getting at is at the very least the most probable solution before stating something like this.


Actually, I think about 3500 years ago there was a large naval vessel carrying a large number of chariots, which sunk in the middle of the Red Sea, sending all of the chariots to the bottom.
Yeah, that's right. That's how they got there. I knew there had to be a non-supernatural reason.

I know I'm not going to win this one, so I give up. We'll all just have to wait until we die to find out who's right. Either way, I don't have anything to worry about.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I probably confused you with another poster in this thread. Sorry


No problem. You've seen one cartoon, you've seen 'em all.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:06 PM

BARNSTORMER


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:

Since you have it all figured out Sigma, why not prove to all the dumbass religous types that God does not exist?

What proof do you have that your so certain?




What gave you the impression that I "had everything figured out"?

And I'd appreciate a more civil tone in your reply, please.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki





This is from your first post on this thread.....

2) No they certainly cannot prove the existance of god in detail. If that were true, then we would all have been believers a long time ago.

Due to the fact that you cannot disprove that God exists, you then cannot be certain that no one can provide the proof of Gods existance.

Yet in your post you state it as a certainty. If your so sure, where is your proof??????
I ask again.....

BTW, you'll get whatever I want to give in my reply. Just as you do. My posts are quite civil when compared to your history of rants and insults to anyone who disagrees with any of your opinions.

Do try to keep the self importance to a minimum.





Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:50 PM

COPILOT


I used to be a christian when I was a kid. For awhile my daddy was even a preacher man. Now I don't feel I could believe in that way. The vast majority of Christains I knew were evil backstabbing gossipy awfull awfull people. My family will never the same. I'm glad my father found god when I was yonge because he was saved from a horrible life of drug use and alcoholism. I will forever be greatfull to christ for that but it's not for me. Faith is wonderfull for those that find it. I'm glad you have something to make this life easier for you.

An I carried such a torch

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

The bibles intention was never to give you a historical account for the sake of history, but to give you something you can use for your life today, right now, here, the moment...
Back in Biblical days, it was considered de rigeur to sacrifice your child, if the Voice of God told you to do so. Now, it's considered criminal, or possibly criminally insane. There's a lot in the Bible we prolly wouldn't want to follow. But as a document of religious myth, it's quite fascinating. I've never had time to read the Gospel of Thomas, but I heard its very different from what was eventually selected by the Church around 600 AD and might actually be closer to the original teachings.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:32 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


SIGH There really are people who believe the bible in a literal sense.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:39 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The Gospel of Thomas (sometimes called the Heresy of Thomas, I think) is one of my two favorite religious writings. The other is the Lao Tzu.

The Gospel of Thomas doesn't have biographical notes (and then Jesus left the Sea of Galilee for the city of ...), it is filled with quotes.

"Jesus said ...

If those who lead you say to you, 'See the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather the kingdom is inside of you and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:40 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

Actually, I think about 3500 years ago there was a large naval vessel carrying a large number of chariots, which sunk in the middle of the Red Sea, sending all of the chariots to the bottom.
Yeah, that's right. That's how they got there. I knew there had to be a non-supernatural reason.

I know I'm not going to win this one, so I give up. We'll all just have to wait until we die to find out who's right. Either way, I don't have anything to worry about.




I never took that stance that this was about winning or losing. I was just discussing and was trying to seperate what might be an explination vs what isn't.

IMO, if god is as kind and generous as people say (and exists), then no-one that has lead as good life as they could has anything to worry about. I can't see and all benevolent god damning someone to an eternity of fire and brimestone just because they didn't believe for a very finite amount of time. That's just my opinion though

But, it's good to know that you are resonable enough to accept or come up with a more probable explination than a biblical one. Please don't take that the wrong way. It's just that in my experience meeting two people that are religous, that are also resonable in the same thread is a miracle (pun intended ).

Regarding the not having to worry thing. I know I'm not Mormon. And if you aren't either, then according to South Park, we both have something to worry about


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

I probably confused you with another poster in this thread. Sorry



No problem. You've seen one cartoon, you've seen 'em all.




See you in the funny pages.

Yah yah, I know.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:55 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:

This is from your first post on this thread.....

2) No they certainly cannot prove the existance of god in detail. If that were true, then we would all have been believers a long time ago.




Look at there website. QED.

Point of fact, if there was an indisputable existance proof of god, when read, we couldn't deny god's existance. Thus we'd all not just believe that god exists, but know that god exists.


Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:

BTW, you'll get whatever I want to give in my reply. Just as you do. My posts are quite civil when compared to your history of rants and insults to anyone who disagrees with any of your opinions.

Do try to keep the self importance to a minimum.




And I don't have to reply to nor pay attention to your posts if you do not keep it civil and you have the same right to do that to me.

My past history in no way justifies any ill behaviour on your part. I have behaved in a civil manner in this thread and for the past quite some time. So, I think I deserve it reciprocated.

Also, if you look at my last blog, you'll note that I noticed that this site has gotten collectively more and more angry over the past little while (I'm not alone in this opinion either).

I have decided to become part of the solution. Part of that is to not entertain those that post insulting and/or mean and/or condescending and/or ... comments.

I plan on moving forward and sticking to this as best as I can (I cannot change the past). What you do is up to you. But I do hope that this jockeying for position stuff can end.



----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:57 PM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Yeah, that's right. That's how they got there. I knew there had to be a non-supernatural reason.


Actually, I was being silly with that one. You know -- trying to beat the skeptics to their "logical" explanation for the chariots being there at the bottom of the Red Sea.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
IMO, if god is as kind and generous as people say (and exists), then no-one that has lead as good life as they could has anything to worry about. I can't see and all benevolent god damning someone to an eternity of fire and brimestone just because they didn't believe for a very finite amount of time. That's just my opinion though


Well, I won't go into detailed theology here. For one thing, it'll bore the heck out of nearly everyone.

However, if you're actually interested in my attempt to explain what I think the Bible teaches in this regard, feel free to ask. I'll respond via private message. If not, not.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:10 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The Gospel of Thomas (sometimes called the Heresy of Thomas, I think) is one of my two favorite religious writings. The other is the Lao Tzu.

The Gospel of Thomas doesn't have biographical notes (and then Jesus left the Sea of Galilee for the city of ...), it is filled with quotes.

"Jesus said ...

If those who lead you say to you, 'See the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather the kingdom is inside of you and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."


The Gospel of Thomas the Doubter?

And yeah, it's full of stuff that didn't help the cause of Roman Catholicism, like control, so it was removed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cartoon:
Actually, I was being silly with that one. You know -- trying to beat the skeptics to their "logical" explanation for the chariots being there at the bottom of the Red Sea.


The Bible doesn't place the parting of the sea and the drowning of the Egyptian Chariots in the Red sea, so no matter what the explanation its not from the Bible, your ignorance of your own religion is astounding, not that you'll read this so I can say what I like .




More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Those who argue that the Thomas Gospel predates Mathew, Mark, Luke and John would say it comes from Thomas the Apostle.


On another note, something I've always wondered about is why Christians even refer to the Old Testament. Wasn't Jesus doing away with the old and creating a new from-the-ground-up compact with god ?


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:58 PM

OMEGADARK


Quote:


May I assume that you're getting at, the bible is along the lines of a "moral guide."



Nope, I am saying that it is irrelevant to someone who is incorporating the values. It doesn't hold up in an argument unless you are basing your entire arguments validity on your 'historical evidence.' We can argue whether it is useful or not to argue historically in some other thread, I would prefer arguments on doctrine and understanding....

Quote:

if you work on Sunday, you will be put to death. Not exactly a statement that gives the warm fuzzies.


LOL, now that takes a whole different historical approach doesn't it? Hehehe, the history of writing and such...ah what a quagmire of a topic! But, none the less...no fuzzies for me either


Quote:

IMO, all religions are the same, they just go about it in a different way.


From my study (FOR THE MOST PART, MOST PART) the values are very similar....but that too doesn't affect or hinder the arguments for or against Christianity...but it is awfully interesting to see how alike most religions truly are!!!

Quote:

(Yes, I've used exageration in the above. By all, I mean vast majority that I've studied.)


I know


Quote:

For instance, Christanity generally promots that if you don't do x, you'll go to Hell for all eternity.


I have to disagree here (sigh). The notion of doing this or not doing that leads to hell is an absurdly simplified notion that can quite easily lead one to believe that God is some type of ogre who has no conception of human interaction, influences, etc etc etc. It also can lead to a very unmerciful view of God. The toughest thing about scripture and the like is the 'reading between the lines'. But, if you take it literally, then well...*sigh*...my argument is useless for you....

Quote:

Many paths to the same objective



Yep, could be...could be...nothing to say here

Quote:

"or true"?


Hey don't insinuate...that is just silly



COPILOT

I am sure He is still in your life....you will find Him in someway or form....

Quote:

The vast majority of Christains I knew were evil backstabbing gossipy awfull awfull people


I know, it is sad that those burned out bulbs of the Christian community burn the brightest...good luck


Quote:

Back in Biblical days, it was considered de rigeur to sacrifice your child, if the Voice of God told you to do so. Now, it's considered criminal, or possibly criminally insane. There's a lot in the Bible we prolly wouldn't want to follow. But as a document of religious myth, it's quite fascinating. I've never had time to read the Gospel of Thomas, but I heard its very different from what was eventually selected by the Church around 600 AD and might actually be closer to the original teachings.


*sigh* I really don't want this to be offensive, and if it is I appologize in advance...

But, that was the silliest thing I have ever heard....

-OD

I can't write anymore...too much to write...this is about it...



X

(I can't read or write)

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:01 PM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Something I've always wondered about is why Christians even refer to the Old Testament. Wasn't Jesus doing away with the old and creating a new from-the-ground-up compact with god ?


Since you asked, actually Jesus said He had not come "to destroy the Law or the Prophets," that He did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Also, that not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until all is fulfilled.

Jesus didn't come to replace Judiasm, but fulfill it. That's the short explaination. If you want a longer one, I'd be happy to make an effort to provide you with one to the best I can. If not, not.


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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And yet Jesus preached against existing religion based on the OT.

You will not be defiled by what goes into your mouth, rather by what comes out of it ... there are only two important commandments, love god with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself ...

Just two examples of the many preachings that sought to do away with the influence of the OT.

edited to add: In one way or another Jesus said - follow him. This was reiterated openly and in various guises. You must give up all you have and follow me, I am the way, pearl of great price, light under a bushel, seeds on fertile ground, mustard seed, prodigal son etc. And the only things he ever preached were love god above all and your neighbour as yourself.

It seems pretty clear to me - you must follow him. No one else.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:39 PM

MURKYMERC


Quote:

Originally posted by leelu7777:
fine live in darkness live in emptiness and die go to a place where you will have every disease and every mental sickness ever created because a misconception. I dont know what happened to you to get that idea but he will never let you down it just takes some time for every thing to take place. he lived for you he died for you and this is how you repay him he died because the devil took the keys of heaven so no one could enter he had a chance to flee the garden of olives and leave the people that cursed him and let you burn he could have had a long and furfilled life but no he was beaten broken and nailed at a tree his children spit on him and he knew it would happen he could of shunned them left them to suffer in etrenal darkness but no he forgave the ones that cursed him and you say he dosent care ha as a christian I know him speak to him and feel his love and his peace and then to hear the words of hate twards him to think people would rather chose emptyness and pain over peace and true everlasting love because of past wrong doings fine you have a choice not mine who am I to tell you it your life

i'm in the world not of it




AHHHHHh.....Help, I need commas and periods!!!! I thought I was a Christian, but is there something I can do to not be associated with this person?

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:44 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


What can I say? There are many who've gone to great lengths to erase distinctions - the world is so much clearer in black and white.

See 'demonization' threads.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:58 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Back in Biblical days, it was considered de rigeur to sacrifice your child, if the Voice of God told you to do so. Now, it's considered criminal, or possibly criminally insane. There's a lot in the Bible we prolly wouldn't want to follow. But as a document of religious myth, it's quite fascinating. I've never had time to read the Gospel of Thomas, but I heard its very different from what was eventually selected by the Church around 600 AD and might actually be closer to the original teachings.- Signy

*sigh* I really don't want this to be offensive, and if it is I appologize in advance... But, that was the silliest thing I have ever heard.... -OmegaDark

Why silly? I thought the whole thing about Abraham sacrificing Isaac was a test of faith.
Quote:

(Gen 22 NIV) Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. {2} Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
Now, I find a lot of interesting things about this particular passage. One that isn't mentioned much nowadays is that the Old Testament God was like a lot of gods in the region- he liked his sacrifices. The scent of burning flesh wafting to heaven was meant to propitiate this fearsome (but appraently bribable) entity. The other thing that I think is interesting in that the sacrifice had to be worth something. I mean, sure, you could go cheap and buy yourself a dove at the temple (and pay the money-changers a stiff price for the right coin, I'll bet) but if you REALLY wanted to make your point with God, you'd go grab your best ram from the flock. Now that's a sacrifice. It's just one step further to sacrifice a son. And indeed, there are people today who hear God's voice telling them to kill their children and they do (It's a test of faith you see) and they usually get put on thorazine or some such so they can make a lucid case for themselves at trial.

The other point I find interesting about this passage... and gives you an idea about how society has changed... is that God doesn't expect Abraham to demure because killing a human is morally repugnant, but because Abraham values and loves Isaac. Isaac, in fact, doesn't seem to be part of the equation- not accorded what we call "human rights"- he is simply Abraham's prized possession. In fact, it was quite common in the patriarchal societies of that time to dispose of wives, children, servants and slaves as the master saw fit.

There are lots of other examples; "Here, take my young virginal daughters and do what you will with them, just leave me along with these men of God" and so forth, that we would squirm about today.

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Free as in freedom, not beer.

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