REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Proving God

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Thursday, March 9, 2006 15:58
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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 8:11 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


I've read a long thread here about God, about scientists who try to prove God, about people who do or do not believe in God.

It seems to me there are four camps.

1) People who believe completely in what they perceive.

2) People who believe completely in what they were told first.

3) People who believe completely in what makes them feel good.

4) People who don't know what to believe.

In the first three categories, you will find believers in both God and Science and just about any other thing.

But the idea of proving God seems false to me.

If you believe in God, then you know that historically the only person who has ever been able to prove God is God, and you also know that he has said he prefers not to have to do that.

If you don't believe in God, then you will only believe in God when he comes down here and proves himself to you.

So what's the point in trying to prove God? Even Revelations says that God will prove himself to everyone beyond any doubt.

So chill. Stop trying to prove God. God himself doesn't think it ought to be necessary. Whose work are you doing if you are doing something God himself doesn't want?

Leave the atheists and nonbelievers alone. There's no need to browbeat anybody. When God's ready, he can appear. He will judge, so we don't have to.

I think it expresses a profound lack of faith when you desperately try to convert a disbeliever, or when you try to fabricate evidence to make a case to 'prove' God.

Chill out. People will believe what they believe.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 8:43 PM

KHYRON


Thanks for that post. With all the religious debates going on here, I think it was starting to get necessary for somebody to say what you said.

Being an atheist, I find few things more irritating than religious people telling me what I should believe in and that I'm wicked if I don't. I generally hate religious discussions because they don't lead anywhere and people usually expect me to defend my belief, or rather lack thereof, whereas I really don't care and think everyone should be able to believe or not as they please and let other people get on with their own lives (when I say believe what they want, I mean within reason of course - no crazy cult stuff, especially if it involves harming somebody or something). However, if religious people don't accept this laissez-faire attitude (they usually don't, strangely enough), I think it's actually them that should prove the existence of their particular deity, not the other way around.

Anyway, I don't walk up to religious people and make them defend their beliefs, and I'd prefer it if religious people showed the same courtesy.

Although it has to be said that these religious discussions were the only ones that didn't develop into dreamtrove having a Republicans vs Democrats bullfight with someone. Not yet, at least.

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 11:02 PM

AUSSAY


Good advice but Ive seen a fair share of attacks on peoples beliefs by atheists/agnostics as well, especially when their speak up about their faith, so its not just a one way street

"Shake your head boy, your eyes are stuck"

www.fireflyfans.net
http://www.browncoatsriseagain.com/

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 11:12 PM

ALGUS


It's just something that people believe in strongle. People have a lot of misconceptions as well, you see a lot of ignorance in those arguments. They make bold statements without really knowing what they're talking about in an effort to "prove" their point which is just silly. Those arguments are about as likely to make an atheist convert to Christianity as they are to make a Christian give up Christ.

Anyway, your post was well said, I hope this thread doesn't share the fate of many others and degenerate into heated arguments. Can't we just respect each other's differences and get along? ;)

---
Where's the KABOOM?! There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom! *sigh* Delays...delays...

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 2:12 AM

GAMMARAYGIRL



Khyron, everyone, very well said, thank you.

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 2:40 AM

KNIBBLET


God is conscience. He is even the atheism of the atheist. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)

'Nuff said. I don't believe in your gods. I rarely believe in mine.




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Thursday, March 9, 2006 4:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Every so often Jehova's Wittnesses show up at my door. I talk to them politely, but they can never answer one question: Did God "transport" genetic material into Mary to knock her up? I mean, she was, like a virgin, right? I keep getting the "miracle, it's a miracle" junk. Even God operates by the scientific laws he created, right?
BTW, is God off making other worlds? Is that why so much crap is happening on this world unchecked? I figure he left 'round just before the Crusades, 'cause I don't see him standing for that without SOMEBODY getting turned to a salt pillar...

Is he gonna be pissed when he gets back!


I'll be in my bunker Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 5:11 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
So what's the point in trying to prove God? Even Revelations says that God will prove himself to everyone beyond any doubt... (snip) So chill. Stop trying to prove God. God himself doesn't think it ought to be necessary. Whose work are you doing if you are doing something God himself doesn't want?


I agree. And I said as much towards the beginning of that last thread...

"As a believer, I have no doubt that God will someday prove His existence in a way which cannot be denied -- but not until after we're dead, are facing Him..."

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Chill out. People will believe what they believe.


Agree.

"...'evidence' will never convince the people who don't want to believe in the first place."

"...I believe there are plenty of indicators throughout creation which point to a sovereign Creator... but "proof" that would convince a skeptic (or actually any of us apart from His grace)? Probably not in this life."

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Leave the atheists and nonbelievers alone. There's no need to browbeat anybody. When God's ready, he can appear. He will judge, so we don't have to.


Again, I agree fully.

As I also mentioned in the previous thread, I hadn't been into the atheist thread because I'm not an atheist and don't feel it's my place to post something in a thread started for people who are. Someone in the Christian thread claimed that believers were in the atheist thread attacking them. As I haven't been in there to ascertain, I can't gauge the degree of such attacks (if any).

What I can ascertain, however, is that the "Christian" thread has more non-believers posting in it (and stirring up trouble) than believers.

I am curious as to the actual number of posts there are in the atheist thread made by people who claim to be "believers"...

And I qualify this with "people who claim to be believers", because I know there are argumentative people who like to argue just for the sake of argument, and may be disagreeing not because they're believers in God, but because they just like to disagree.

Person #1: The sky is blue.
Person #2: You're right, the sky is blue.
Person #1: No, it isn't! It's green!



Had an aunt like that once. She was the only person I knew who could cause an argument even when she was the only person in a room. And, I've met a few in here who remind me of her.


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Thursday, March 9, 2006 5:32 AM

CITIZEN


Hmm, a post by Cartoon where he starts talking about things he knows nothing about and makes out that he is better than everyone else, I'd like to say it was a surprise, but it's just par for the course with him.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 5:49 AM

OMEGADARK


Quote:

I think it expresses a profound lack of faith when you desperately try to convert a disbeliever, or when you try to fabricate evidence to make a case to 'prove' God.


agreed!!!!

Quote:

But the idea of proving God seems false to me


yah! and if it was possible on the outset, it would have been done a long long long long long time ago...

Quote:

Leave the atheists and nonbelievers alone.


and vice versa!!! I don't like to be bothered and ridiculed either

Quote:

Whose work are you doing if you are doing something God himself doesn't want?


thats a weird question...lol for some reason it just makes me laugh

Overall, I agree, when God's ready it will happen! I think a better directed debate would be around ethics and morals not proof or lack there of...

But, I think the religious posts have reached there max for now

-OD





The man with no fingers...

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 6:48 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


I don’t see any reason to leave the atheists and nonbelievers alone. First of all, I’m pretty sure they won’t leave the theists and the believers alone, and secondly, I don’t think they are all that defenseless or necessarily wrong. So have at it, I say. Just walk away friends.

I’d just be happy if people stopped using the word “proof” all together and stopped accusing me of using the word ‘proof’ when I clearly did not. It’s got to be the most hyped and overrated word in history. Outside of the idealistic world of mathematics “proof” is a nonsense word.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 6:54 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’d just be happy if people stopped using the word “proof” all together and stopped accusing me of using the word ‘proof’ when I clearly did not.


Do you have any proof to back that up, Finn?

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 6:59 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Although it has to be said that these religious discussions were the only ones that didn't develop into dreamtrove having a Republicans vs Democrats bullfight with someone. Not yet, at least.


LOL

Give him time.

His hands are full at the moment -- oh, with the Klingons and everything else going on in that other thread

Who was the idiot who brought Klingons into the discussion, anyhow?

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 7:11 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Who was the idiot who brought Klingons into the discussion, anyhow?"

Yeah... everyone knows it's the Romulans that give the real trouble.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 10:04 AM

BLACKCOLLARBROWNCOAT


That's actually sort of refreshing to hear from a believer (a pretty big one it sounds like).

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch me soar.

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 10:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


You can't "prove" an article of faith because articles of faith are- by definition- beyond being proved. They exist despite lack of evidence, or even despite evidence to the contrary. But, hmmm... come to think of it, you can't "prove" a scientific hypothesis either; I think the usual approach is that you can only disprove a hypothesis. I think "proof" only exists in math and other strict logical constructs. Trying to "prove" an article of faith actually destroys the act of faith- right?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 11:21 AM

ANNA


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
...and stopped accusing me of using the word ‘proof’ when I clearly did not.




Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
proof





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Thursday, March 9, 2006 11:52 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
You can't "prove" an article of faith because articles of faith are- by definition- beyond being proved. They exist despite lack of evidence, or even despite evidence to the contrary. But, hmmm... come to think of it, you can't "prove" a scientific hypothesis either; I think the usual approach is that you can only disprove a hypothesis. I think "proof" only exists in math and other strict logical constructs. Trying to "prove" an article of faith actually destroys the act of faith- right?


SignyM, I have only one suggestion for you...

Uh, lose that "y" and buy a proper vowel, will you? Your name is confusing me. What the heck is it supposed to mean, anyhow??!?!?

I mean "cartoon" is "cartoon". Everyone knows what a "cartoon" is. No big mystery.

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 3:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

SignyM, I have only one suggestion for you... Uh, lose that "y" and buy a proper vowel, will you? Your name is confusing me. What the heck is it supposed to mean, anyhow??!?!?
Ah, that would be telling wouldn't it? But here's a hint: It's the name of a character from a sience fiction book.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 3:31 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


As far as mathematical proof, aren't there axioms? Things like a = a.




Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 3:40 PM

BARNABY36


When I think "prove God," I think through logic, which is what I do. I just have a different view of God than most do.

However, I don't really feel like getting into that. What I'm seeing in this thread is the discussion of imposing God, not proving Him (the masculinity is for tradition's sake). I wholeheartedly disagree with prosyletization. People believe what's right for them, and forcing people to conform is never beneficial to any party.

"People believe what they want to believe." It's better than that: people believe what they ought to believe. I mean, why else would they believe it?

Ben

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 3:58 PM

1978


I believe in god and I do not have to have proof to do so......I just belive......I know also that everyone believes in something be you a Buddhists, Muslim,Athist, Pagan or Christina.....they also do not need proof of there "GOD" they just believe.

Maybe that is what "religion or religions and or atheism" is...it is just believing in something. I do not think that I could imagine my life without believing in a "Higher Something". I think that using the old Christina/Atheist argument is not the way to solve this because there are soooo many other beings,things,books etc. to consider.

Just what I think..........

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