REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Dear Fake-Patriots,

POSTED BY: STDOUBT
UPDATED: Thursday, May 13, 2021 17:02
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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 AM

STDOUBT


/////WARNING - PROFANITY CONTAINED HERIN/////
Stop reading now if you don't wanna see cussing!!

You know who you are,

The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism by Dr. Lawrence Britt

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14-defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

=======================
You people here who support the current US administration make me sick. You claim to be patriots but you're COWARDS. Too afraid to take the blinders off and see what's in front of you.
I'm not talking about Conservative/Liberal or Democrat/Republican. Those are just words used to divide The People.
I'm talking about you people who think it's OK to kill women and children for continued access to OIL. You who claim to "defend freedom" when you're really just being USED by corporate interest in a war that wasn't even declared by CONGRESS. You who spit on the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA every time you follow an order. The American Way does not depend on OIL!!!! Fat Cats paydays do!! Wake the fsck up!! Our "lifestyle" is not worth killing for!! And Israel is not worth World War III!!!

You who support the current regime are the sickness that will eventually destroy this nation. You who are too cowardly to accept that our government has been overthrown from within by corporate interest and power-sick greed. You who support 'sneak and peek' law 'cuz it won't happen to you right? You who support 'extraordinary rendition' -I'd cut your throats. You who think
Guantanimo is just what we "have to do now" -fsck you and may you rot in hell.

Some of us aren't that scared. Some of us know we have a better chance of getting hit by a bus than dying in a terrorist strike. Some of us would rather NOT attack a sovreign nation and get to keep our trillions in taxes. Some of us KNOW that going to a foreign land and killing women and children is EVIL NO MATTER F$CKING WHAT. Yes, even if you call it "collateral damage" -fsck you. Another 6 billion this month.. feel safer yet dumbass? Know where that money comes from? China debt -now we're Chinas bitch -thanks fsckwads!
Some of us know that true strength is gentle. Those "power of pride" bumper stickers? That's what scares me. Pride is a deadly sin. And it goeth before a fall. Fscking idiots. At least I hope it's simple stupidity, because if you really know what you're doing, God help us all.

President Bush was born in Connecticut.
His Texas drawl is as fake as his Christianity.
He's a blasphemer and a war criminal and a traitor.
He's blue blood through to the bone.
Say 'Hi' to Usama for me George. While you rape a state where he wasn't even welcome.

"I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied
corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial
of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
- Thomas Jefferson

I'm not saying Gore would have been better -fsck you with your Liberal vs. Conservative bullshit.
There's no such thing. There is ONE party in the USA and it's not 'of The People'. Fsck -or maybe it is... I guess we get what we pay for.
200 years -it was a nice run-
What will come next is either revolt,
or decay...
But if it means getting to put a cap in you fake fscking "patriots", i'm all about revolt. I'd kill to preserve the Constitution. But I wouldn't kill to keep gas flowing. You who would, I got a lump of lead^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H prayer with your name on it.



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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:04 AM

SEVENPERCENT


Hey ST -

I know we play it kind of fast and loose sometimes here in the RWED, but don't forget kids come to FFF.net, and "Dear Assholes" probably isn't a good way to keep them coming back.

As much as many here would agree with your sentiments, we could probably almost all agree that you need to change the thread title and watch throwing the f-bombs.

Not trying to take away your freedom of expression, just trying to make this a site we all can enjoy.

Thanks,
7%

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:27 AM

STDOUBT


semi-sanitized because you asked nice, and yeah,
this isn't USENET.
I think I need a big white beach and a Corona. *sigh*

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:50 AM

JONUS


Stdoubt, I applaud you. You've said what I've wanted to say for a long time. I'm not too good with words. Everyone who reads this post and agrees with it should print up flyers and stick them everywhere.

Why does Bush have all his TV's tuned to Fox News? So he doesn't have to hear about the shitty job he's doing.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I still have my "nothing accomplished- defeat bush" sticker up on my car. So, yeah- bumper stickers is nice.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 5:26 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


What you are saying is (sadly) very true.
So what suggestions do you have as to what to do about it?

Personally (and I'm speaking as an enthusiastic amateur rather than someone "in the know") I think that a good starting point would be the building in the U.S. of a strong and GENUINE party of Labour. One that is not tied to corporate cash or corrupt unions.

Standing up to be counted is great but if you stand up one at a time you will just be arrested under terrorism laws and never heard of again.

Everyone must know that when they stand up to be counted, there will be others standing beside them.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:14 AM

CITIZEN


Hmm, I see AURaptor. I see AURaptor alluding that you are a terrorist or un patriotic.

I see him proving everything you just said about Bush supporters without realising it.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:15 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by STDOUBT:
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.



You mean like this?

Quote:

You who support the current regime are the sickness that will eventually destroy this nation. You who are too cowardly to accept that our government has been overthrown from within by corporate interest and power-sick greed. You who support 'sneak and peek' law 'cuz it won't happen to you right? You who support 'extraordinary rendition' -I'd cut your throats. You who think
Guantanimo is just what we "have to do now" -fsck you and may you rot in hell.



And you get double points because your screed also uses that classic fascist ploy of de-humanizing your enemies. Much easier to hate "Cowards" who "spit on the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" than to hate otherwise good people who raise families, do good works, but just have different opinions than you about the government.

You've passed the test and your Fascista membership card is in the mail.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:51 AM

GREENFAERIE


Yeah, but his points are still valid.

It's really sad to see someone with valid points shoot themselves in the foot by ranting and spewing hate. Even though I agree with many of STDOUBT's points, I am severely turned off by the attitude. You could convince more people if you were less emotional and more to the point.


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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:53 AM

KHYRON


Before I get pushed into a corner for not being completely on the side of the majority here in RWED, let me just say that for the most part I agree with STDoubt (although I don't have such strong feelings about the whole thing, I just tend to ignore ueber-patriots since there's no way of arguing with them).

However (the actual point of this post): Geezer, that was classic .



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:26 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
(although I don't have such strong feelings about the whole thing, I just tend to ignore ueber-patriots since there's no way of arguing with them).


What's your name, Chamberlain?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:34 AM

CHRISISALL


Hey Stdoubt, we reach, though I try not to be that er, emotional about it. I have been at times, and find it clouds my intake.

That said, YOU GO, GIRL!!

Figure of speech Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:52 AM

HAZE


This is all very true, America under Bush is a very frightening thing. Patriotism and jingoism seem to be a thing interchangeable in some US circles right now. To fear the most powerful nation on earth is a horrible and powerless feeling. But America is not going to be the most powerful nation on earth for much longer and if anything China scares me more. Worrying times.


Anyway I admire your courage for saying this.


--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:05 AM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:


Standing up to be counted is great but if you stand up one at a time you will just be arrested under terrorism laws and never heard of again.

Everyone must know that when they stand up to be counted, there will be others standing beside them.



That's why we need a People Power Revolution similar to what occurred in the Philippines. Can't necessarily say it's been all great since then, but it got Marcos out of power.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:09 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
What's your name, Chamberlain?


You think Hitler could have been stopped by ranting at him?



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:10 AM

SASSALICIOUS


You know what Plato said a long long time ago (obviously)? He said "He will in the first place continue to stir up war in the order that people may continue to need him to be a leader."

And one of my favorite Cambodian proverbs sort of fits the situation. Granted, I first read it in the context of Thailand and Vietnam pushing their respective borders into Cambodia, but still. "When elephants fight the ants in the grass die". Interpret as you will. There is an obvious Elephants=Republicans, but there are deeper ones, too.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:11 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by STDOUBT:
I'm talking about you people who think it's OK to kill women and children for continued access to OIL. You who claim to "defend freedom" when you're really just being USED by corporate interest in a war that wasn't even declared by CONGRESS. You who spit on the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA every time you follow an order.



So are you saying that every current and former military member that served in Iraq or Afghanistan is just wrong? I mean, I agree with a lot of your points, but as one of those former military members, I just want to be clear about what you're saying here.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:12 AM

CITIZEN


Actually, possibly.

If the Allies had stood up earlier the Germany Millitary may have done the job for us.

Of course may have and the situation was no where near as simple as that I know...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:18 AM

FLETCH2


I think it's been established that had the Allies responded more forcefully to Germany's earlier invasions Hitler would have backed down. The problem was that Britain wasn't in a position to fight a war back then and though France had Europes largest standing army they were principly defensive.


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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:20 AM

CITIZEN


There was also that little 'Great War' thing on peoples minds...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:34 AM

FLETCH2


History in part is a game of 20/20 hindsight. That's why context is an important part of understanding people's motivations. It's easy 50 years on with more information and a modern worldview to say "he should have done this" or "he should have done that." Looked at from a modern perspective every war leader is a fool because you can always make a case that this decision was disasterous, that there was always this alternative or that this decision was plain stupid. At the time, with the world view and information the leaders ahd there may not have been that many apparent choices.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:37 AM

KHYRON


Fletch and Citizen, I agree with both of you, but I think there's a difference in semantics (for lack of a better word). Probably Hitler could have been stopped if other countries threatened him with retaliation if he started being naughty, but threatening and ranting aren't the same. Had they tried to argue with him (or even rant), I still think he wouldn't have cared as long as they didn't seem like they were in a position of power.

Now, back to the original point regarding ueber-patriots (btw, I just realised that we're implicitly implying they're like Hitler - I hope that's not really the case, at least it's not what I meant to do), ranting and arguing is basically all we can do, and making any real sort of threats is both impossible (unless we know them personally) and unethical. So it's unlikely that they'll ever change their minds through people arguing against them.

Not that it shouldn't be tried, of course. They shouldn't think that their opinion is a universal truth because no one seems to disagree, but it's just not worth my time personally. I have people like the ones on this forum to do it for me .



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:00 AM

HAZE


There is a question I want to ask American board users right now and it relates to my previous post. How is the fact that China will soon supersede America in world power being handled in the American media and in America in general? I have heard it said in the media over here that America is in a state of denial about the situation. Is it considered unpatriotic to admit it?


--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:24 AM

WISHUPONAWASH


Yes citizen, you are very right in that across a lot of Europe, the memory of WWI was still very fresh. Many people denounced Churchill as a War monger for his belief that Nazi Germany (and the communists) were a large threat and needed to be met with military force.

Stdoubt, I have seen the same (or very similar) thread posted on many sites. You are not saying anything new, even if you do have a point. May I suggest that next time you post something along these lines, you write a more coherent post. People don't want to read unreadable posts as your original post in this thread was. 7% pointed out your use of swearing. He has a very good point. There is no need to swear. I'm afraid that it only makes you sound stupid. I consider FFF (and the show in general) as a site for people of all ages (well almost ALL ages).

I'm not trying to you but simply offering advice. Again I do agree that the USA has taken a turn for the worst in recent years. However every government/empire/ dictatorship will eventually fall or be forced to evolve (look at my own country’s monarchy). If you want to actually do something to actually help then may I suggest the following:

1) Use public transport, ride a bike or just walk. I know of even the most ardent environmentalists (particularly in the USA) drive fuel intense trucks/SUVs/sports cars. By reducing the demand for oil you'll reduce support for the companies that support Bush.

2) Campaign hard next election. Tell people that they have other choices. Even if it won't affect the result but it will send a message to the government.

3) Don't post fowl mouthed rants. You may of noticed that firefly as a distinct controlling government voice to it (properly why Fox pulled it.) This is a fan sit for the show. Hence a lot of people on this site properly agree with you. No point, preaching to the converted.

I hope you take my points on board and in the spirit that I intended.


Regards, WishuponaWash

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:28 AM

SASSALICIOUS


Everyone and their mom is pandering to the Chinese government and overlooking the fact that the Chinese government is evil, guilty of gross human rights violations (some of which we've gotten all worked up about in the Middle East), and guilty of withholding health/medical information that's relevant to the rest of the world. Then when a Chinese government official comes on an official state visit to the U.S., the Chinese official makes a big display of releasing some political prisoner (who was probably imprisoned on false charges or something ridiculous) and everyone goes "oooh, they are taking steps to become more progressive" when in all actuality they aren't.

So to answer your question, I would say it's mostly denial with the occasional voice speaking up. There are grassroots groups, but those groups aren't really the media. Oh! The Falun Gong newspaper had a big spread about the Falun Gong persecution that is ongoing in China--not entirely sure how I feel about the live organ harvesting claims that were being made though. I don't want to believe it, but I guess it's technically possible. I mean, look what Hitler did in Germany.

I don't know that it's considered unpatriotic to mention the China situation, but it's a bad business move to mention it. Look at the market! 1.5 billion people!!! That's way more teenages to coerce and brainwash than the companies will ever find in America.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:35 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Haze:
There is a question I want to ask American board users right now and it relates to my previous post. How is the fact that China will soon supersede America in world power being handled in the American media and in America in general? I have heard it said in the media over here that America is in a state of denial about the situation. Is it considered unpatriotic to admit it?



I'm handling it the same as I did in the '80s when it was a fact that Japan was going to supercede us as a world power, and in the '90s when it was South Korea. Maintaining a skeptical wait and see attitude.

This isn't to say China won't cause trouble, especially in Africa. They will do this by sending the kind of aid most governments there really like, not food and medicine, but guns and money to help them maintain their power.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:37 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


STDOUBT
Quote:


3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

SLICK (I mean, GEEZER)
Quote:

You mean like this?
STDOUBT You who support the current regime are the sickness that will eventually destroy this nation. You who are too cowardly to accept that our government has been overthrown from within by corporate interest and power-sick greed. You who support 'sneak and peek' law 'cuz it won't happen to you right? You who support 'extraordinary rendition' -I'd cut your throats. You who think
Guantanimo is just what we "have to do now" -fsck you and may you rot in hell.

Slick, look up the definition of scapegoat.



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:53 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Fletch and Citizen, I agree with both of you, but I think there's a difference in semantics (for lack of a better word). Probably Hitler could have been stopped if other countries threatened him with retaliation if he started being naughty, but threatening and ranting aren't the same. Had they tried to argue with him (or even rant), I still think he wouldn't have cared as long as they didn't seem like they were in a position of power.

The Germans who occupied the Rhineland in 1936 were told that if they should experience any resistance from France, that they should withdraw because Germany did not have the military power to hold the Rhineland. To a very large extent, I think the Rhineland was a test. The Germans, having essentially lost the First World War, were probably not committed in 1936 to an expansionistic offensive, until they were not removed from the Rhineland, at which point they began to build up their military force confident they could defeat countries that could not or would not oppose them. I think it relatively certain that if France and the UK (and I’ll throw the US in their as well,) had shown even a meager show of force by retaking the Rhineland, it might very well have forestalled the entire war. Of course we can’t really know what would have been, although what was, was certainly the worst of most possible scenarios.
Quote:

Originally posted by Haze:
There is a question I want to ask American board users right now and it relates to my previous post. How is the fact that China will soon supersede America in world power being handled in the American media and in America in general? I have heard it said in the media over here that America is in a state of denial about the situation. Is it considered unpatriotic to admit it?

There are lots of theories about where China will be in the coming years, but little can be said with any degree of certainty, at least according to Heisenberg. China is definitely growing as a military and an industrial power, whether that means it will supercede the US or if that should necessary matter is another issue entirely. I wouldn’t say the media in the US is in denial about it. There are varying opinions, but it’s largely speculation. I read an article in Time magazine a year ago that talked about the growing influence of China, and the issue of China concerning trade relations and gas prices is always in the news and the implication of China’s growing industrial or military power is never denied or overlooked. I don’t know what the European media, specifically, is saying about this issue, but based on your characterization, I would say they are probably wrong.

Also Stdout is a little bit fruitcakey.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Slick, look up the definition of scapegoat.



Webster's II New Riverside University Dictionary gives two:

1. An individual or group bearing the blame for others.

2. A goat sent into the wilderness on the Day of Atonement, symbolically bearing on its head the sins of the children of Israel.


So when StDoubt identifies those he/she (where's that non-gender-specific pronoun when you need it?) calls "COWARDS", curses and rants against them, and attempts to unify those who agree with him by this process, he's using them as "scapegoats", right? Thanks for clearing that up.

...unless you're talking about definition 2. I really don't want to go there and possibly provoke another megabyte's worth of anti-semitism from PN.

ps.

I may have been "slick" back in the day, but am now old, lumpy, and somewhat worn, I am also not MIB Agent J, so please give the nickname stuff a break.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


And since Rue's gonna insult me anyway, I might as well make it worthwhile.

So here's a couple of questions about Dr. Britt's 14 Warning Signs of Fascism test.

1. Most symptom tests give a pass-fail number, i.e. "If you have more than 8 of the 14 symptoms, contact a doctor immediately". Is there a make/break for this test, or does meeting any one condition lead irrevocably to Fascism?

2. Actually sort of a subset of 1. Are all the questions only yes/no, or on a scale of 1 to 10? If Great Britain imprisons one man without trial for a week, and North Korea imprisons hundreds of thousands for life, is it fair to give them both the same score?


I also wonder if there are similar tests for, say, Communism, Socialism, Liberal Democracy, etc., so we can spin their results as we like as well.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:09 AM

HAZE


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Haze:
There is a question I want to ask American board users right now and it relates to my previous post. How is the fact that China will soon supersede America in world power being handled in the American media and in America in general? I have heard it said in the media over here that America is in a state of denial about the situation. Is it considered unpatriotic to admit it?



I'm handling it the same as I did in the '80s when it was a fact that Japan was going to supercede us as a world power, and in the '90s when it was South Korea. Maintaining a skeptical wait and see attitude.

This isn't to say China won't cause trouble, especially in Africa. They will do this by sending the kind of aid most governments there really like, not food and medicine, but guns and money to help them maintain their power.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




This is a completely different situation, economically the only thing that can stop China now is peak old (which will stop everyone else as well). The realisation that a totalitarian power with an appalling human rights record is going to be a if not the world leader is very disquieting. But it is going to happen.


--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:41 AM

REAVERMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
This isn't to say China won't cause trouble, especially in Africa. They will do this by sending the kind of aid most governments there really like, not food and medicine, but guns and money to help them maintain their power.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



What do you think we do? The U.S. is the world's largtest exporter of weaponry. Most powerful governments say they don't like that kind of "aid", but almost all of them are giving it under the table. How do you think they have stayed powerful and wealthy?

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:01 PM

REAVERMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by STDOUBT:

You people here who support the current US administration make me sick. You claim to be patriots but you're COWARDS. Too afraid to take the blinders off and see what's in front of you.
I'm not talking about Conservative/Liberal or
Democrat/Republican. Those are just words used to divide The People.
I'm talking about you people who think it's OK to kill women and children for continued access to OIL. You who claim to "defend freedom" when you're really just being USED by corporate interest in a war that wasn't even declared by CONGRESS. You who spit on the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA every time you follow an order. The American Way does not depend on OIL!!!! Fat Cats paydays do!! Wake the fsck up!! Our "lifestyle" is not worth killing for!! And Israel is not worth World War III!!!

You who support the current regime are the sickness that will eventually destroy this nation. You who are too cowardly to accept that our government has been overthrown from within by corporate interest and power-sick greed. You who support 'sneak and peek' law 'cuz it won't happen to you right? You who support 'extraordinary rendition' -I'd cut your throats. You who think
Guantanimo is just what we "have to do now" -fsck you and may you rot in hell.

Some of us aren't that scared. Some of us know we have a better chance of getting hit by a bus than dying in a terrorist strike. Some of us would rather NOT attack a sovreign nation and get to keep our trillions in taxes. Some of us KNOW that going to a foreign land and killing women and children is EVIL NO MATTER F$CKING WHAT. Yes, even if you call it "collateral damage" -fsck you. Another 6 billion this month.. feel safer yet dumbass? Know where that money comes from? China debt -now we're Chinas bitch -thanks fsckwads!
Some of us know that true strength is gentle. Those "power of pride" bumper stickers? That's what scares me. Pride is a deadly sin. And it goeth before a fall. Fscking idiots. At least I hope it's simple stupidity, because if you really know what you're doing, God help us all.

President Bush was born in Connecticut.
His Texas drawl is as fake as his Christianity.
He's a blasphemer and a war criminal and a traitor.
He's blue blood through to the bone.
Say 'Hi' to Usama for me George. While you rape a state where he wasn't even welcome.

"I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied
corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial
of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
- Thomas Jefferson

I'm not saying Gore would have been better -fsck you with your Liberal vs. Conservative bullshit.
There's no such thing. There is ONE party in the USA and it's not 'of The People'. Fsck -or maybe it is... I guess we get what we pay for.
200 years -it was a nice run-
What will come next is either revolt,
or decay...
But if it means getting to put a cap in you fake fscking "patriots", i'm all about revolt. I'd kill to preserve the Constitution. But I wouldn't kill to keep gas flowing. You who would, I got a lump of lead^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H prayer with your name on it.





STDoubt, I agree with most of your points, but you're making the same fundamental mistake that Piratenews makes : You blast everyone with over-the-top rhetoric that turns many people off to your message from the start.

99.9% of the uber-patriots aren't evil, cowardly fools. They are just ignorant of the real goings-on out in the world. How many of them do you think recognized the connection between modern anti-americanism and the U.S.'s ruthless exploitation of third world countries throughout the cold war and into the present? How many do you think know about how the U.S. has propped up dictators like Marcos in the Phillipines, Saddam Hussein in Iraq, the Taliban in Afganistan,the Shah in Iran, the horribly corrupt and opressive South Vietnamese government, and similar regimes throughout the globe? Few to none.

About the oil, how many people stood up and took notice when George Bush signed a bill handing 2 billion dollars to oil companies to do whatever they wanted with(just a sidenote: the oil industry makes 9 billion dollars in pure profit every quarter. For those who don't know, 1 quarter= 3 months)?

Those people aren't horrible Nazi traitors or some such. They are ordinary working class folks that simply dont pay enough attention to the world at large.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:08 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverman:

What do you think we do? The U.S. is the world's largtest exporter of weaponry. Most powerful governments say they don't like that kind of "aid", but almost all of them are giving it under the table. How do you think they have stayed powerful and wealthy?




True, but we also provide quite a bit of that "humanitarian" aid stuff like food, medicine, infrastructure improvements, etc. China doesn't mess with that stuff, just goes straight for the guns and money. And just because the U.S. has done it doesn't make it any less wrong for the Chinese to do it, eh?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:56 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


OK, Slick,

You left out a really important part of the definition for scapegoat - BEARING BLAME FOR OTHERS. You see, if you are the cause of the problem, being blamed isn't being 'scapegoated.' Got it now?

And, to answer your question about grading the test - you fail if all of the answers are yes.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:05 PM

KHYRON


The point in the 'test' says "enemies/scapegoats". Why are you focussing on 'scapegoat'? Couldn't one regard uber-patriots to be one's 'enemy' in a moralistic way?

Besides, the uber-patriots aren't responsible for the administration's actions, just for voting the administration into power and then defending their actions. I think blaming them for the Iraq war technically is making them a scapegoat.

As much as I agreed with the jist of StDoubt's rant, I think Geezer had a good point and I don't see the need to try to discredit it by arguing about definitions.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:09 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
OK, Slick,

You left out a really important part of the definition for scapegoat - BEARING BLAME FOR OTHERS. You see, if you are the cause of the problem, being blamed isn't being 'scapegoated.' Got it now?



Actually, I didn't. It's right there in what I quoted, I think. Let me check the dictionary again. Yep. "1. An individual or group bearing blame for others." You have made it perfectly clear in the past that you consider me one of the people StDoubt scapegoats as "cowards' who "spit on the Constitution" but I have to plead innocent. Your irrational and de-humanizing hatred of me reflects more on your qualification as a fascist than it does on me. So there. Ha.


Quote:

And, to answer your question about grading the test - you fail if all of the answers are yes.



OK. Let's first look at the origin of these "14 rules". They come from an article in "Free Enquiry Magazine" titled "Fascism Anyone?" by Dr.(?) Lawrence Britt. Here's a link to the original article.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=britt_23
_2


Free Inquiry is apparently the house organ of the Council for Secular Humanism.

Then I went looking for "Dr. Lawrence Britt"...and can't find a thing about him other than he writes for the Council for Secular Humanism and the Rochester City newspaper, and has written a book entitled "July 2004" which is #1,273,771 in the Amazon.com books sales ranking. No evidence anywhere he's a Doctor of anything.

So, first of all, why should I give any credance to this cipher's opinions, and second, why should I accept your unsupported word about the interpretation of his already dubious test?

And again, I do you the courtesy of not assigning you arbitrary nicknames. Please return the favor.





"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:28 PM

STDOUBT


2 OLDENGLANDDRY
Quote:

What you are saying is (sadly) very true.
So what suggestions do you have as to what to do about it?


IMO, the two major parties in this country have been locked down by one group of players. I feel it in my bones that Kerry works for Bush. The Clintons are on their team too. "Vote 3rd party" is all I know to say. A vote for Dems or Repubs is, at this point, the real way to waste your vote.

2 CAUSAL
Quote:

So are you saying that every current and former military member that served in Iraq or Afghanistan is just wrong? I mean, I agree with a lot of your points, but as one of those former military members, I just want to be clear about what you're saying here.

Some of the finest men I have known served in Vietnam. I have great admiration and respect for the US Armed Forces. I hate to see them abused by a government that isn't worthy of them. I have had the pleasure of having friends who served in Vietnam and the honor of caring for aging veterans of WWII (as their nurse). These are fine people. Our government owes them much more than they will ever give them. In the current day, I think the generals should have told Bush to go fuck himself unless he could get Congress to sign off on his warmongering. Allowing the executive branch to ride roughshod over the Constitution is in my view, a sure sign of impending doom. I'm no expert in military law but I support any soldier who 'deserts' from this illegal war. He/She would NOT be deserting America nor her interests! But to dispense with pretty words and answer your question straight up, Yes -I think they are wrong. That also means I want them to come home safe.

2 WISHUPONAWASH
You're right on all counts.

2 RUE
Thank you. That Geezer is one spooky hombre.

2 REAVERMAN
Quote:

Those people aren't horrible Nazi traitors or some such. They are ordinary working class folks that simply dont pay enough attention to the world at large.

You're right, and I know. I'm just angry and admittedly scared. Ignorance is the enemy. I don't want to see anyone hurt. I'm a nurse for hell's sake. I just get worked up seeing my beloved
country going straight down the shitter while people wave the flag and cheer.

2 Geezer
I don't know if he's a Dr., a Baker or Candlestick maker. I liked his article.
Here's one that will give you an in-depth idea of who he is FWIW:
http://www.rochester-citynews.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A3136
Also, I may be singling out a 'group' of people as 'the problem', but I'm the lunatic fringe aren't I? I don't think my war machine poses any threat to the status quo. I don't think my propaganda is reaching many ears. So rest easy.

For anyone:
Instead of posting my original rant I should have simply posted this link to a really interesting short film from 1946:
http://www.archive.org/details/Despotis1946
I don't know if the guy in it is qualified to say the things he says, I haven't checked his credentials, I haven't made sure he holds a degree.... but I like his words.

peace, hugs and fluffy bunnies everyone

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:35 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Besides, the uber-patriots aren't responsible for the administration's actions, just for voting the administration into power and then defending their actions. I think blaming them for the Iraq war technically is making them a scapegoat.


In a democracy the government is working for (at least the majority) of people.

Therefore if people voted for and continue too support the actions of their government they share responcibillity for those actions. A democrating government can't do something if the people don't let it.

Unless your saying the American government is not a democracy, there's certainly arguments down that road.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 3:08 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by STDOUBT:
2 Geezer
I don't know if he's a Dr., a Baker or Candlestick maker. I liked his article.
Here's one that will give you an in-depth idea of who he is FWIW:
http://www.rochester-citynews.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A3136
Also, I may be singling out a 'group' of people as 'the problem', but I'm the lunatic fringe aren't I? I don't think my war machine poses any threat to the status quo. I don't think my propaganda is reaching many ears. So rest easy.



Thanks for the link. Looks like Mr. Britt's worldview falls right in with the "Bush is Evil" crowd here. I'm surprised he hasn't been quoted here before, what with stuff such as an essay titled, "Resolved: George W. Bush Is the Worst President in American History".

And while I consider your views (and delivery style) somewhat radical, you're not even close to the real "lunatic fringe" as exemplified around here by PirateNews.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 3:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

99.9% of the uber-patriots aren't evil, cowardly fools. They are just ignorant of the real goings-on out in the world.
Except Slick, er Geezer, who is smart and knows better. But he uses his intelligence to try and convince himself - and everyone else- to go back to sleep. So Slick- I mean Geezer, apparently really could be a fascist.


In a soothing drone: There is nothing to the definition of fascism. The test is flawed. The writer is unknown. Other nations do the same. It's happened before. Trust the system. It's not that bad.... Sleep.... go back to sleep... sleep...

Did I get all of it in for you, Geezer?

Oh yeah, except for ad hominem argument of dismissing everyone else as being in the "Bush is evil" crowd. Geezer- what happens if Bush really IS evil? I guess that thought is not to be actually discussed. GOOD GOD! ANYTHING BUT THAT!

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 3:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


For Slick, who tried to discredit the article on fascism w/o even bothering to look up the topic:

Quote:

Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, a powerful, dictatorial leader who portrays the nation, state or collective as superior to the individuals or groups composing it.

Stanley Payne's Fascism: Comparison and Definition (1980) uses a lengthy itemized list of characteristics to identify fascism, including the creation of an authoritarian state; a regulated, state-integrated economic sector; fascist symbolism; anti-liberalism; anti-communism [3]. A similar strategy was employed by semiotician Umberto Eco in his popular essay Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt[4]. More recently, an emphasis has been placed upon the aspect of populist fascist rhetoric that argues for a "re-birth" of a conflated nation and ethnic people[5].


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

It's a really extensive entry and contains many of the points listed above. If you don't like THIS definition as well, go the the Encyclopedia Britannica. When you have backgrounded yourself in the definition of fascism, then we can discuss whether the USA is heading in that direction.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 3:59 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh yeah, except for ad hominem argument of dismissing everyone else as being in the "Bush is evil" crowd. Geezer- what happens if Bush really IS evil? I guess that thought is not to be actually discussed. GOOD GOD! ANYTHING BUT THAT!

Geezer was not using any ad hominem, only suggesting that Mr. Britt (NOT “everyone else” as you claim) may be a member, and he may be right. The “Bush is evil” crowd does exist on this board and you are a self-proclaimed card-caring member. There's noting ad hominem about Geezer's point.

There is, however, something ad hominem about calling individuals names, whether you're using the word "ass" or "slick." If your intent is to ridicule, it is ad hominem.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:27 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by STDOUBT:
I think the generals should have told Bush to go fuck himself unless he could get Congress to sign off on his warmongering. Allowing the executive branch to ride roughshod over the Constitution is in my view, a sure sign of impending doom. I'm no expert in military law but I support any soldier who 'deserts' from this illegal war.


So you want the military to be making up its own mind on which orders it will or will not obey. You also want them to ignore their duly elected Commander-in-Chief and make their own interrpretation of the Constitution.

I suppose then you'd support the idea that the Generals could simply ignore the President and the Congress, set their own budget, make their own laws and use their military power to enforce those laws because, after all, by their reading of the Constitution, they are acting legally. Sure, you'd probably disagree with the laws and policy they make, but your argument supports their right to act as they please.
Quote:


I'm a nurse for hell's sake. I just get worked up seeing my beloved
country going straight down the shitter while people wave the flag and cheer.


Might want to stick to the nursing and leave the politicing to the professionals.
Quote:


I don't know if the guy in it is qualified to say the things he says, I haven't checked his credentials, I haven't made sure he holds a degree.... but I like his words.


A ringing endorsement, one he shares with used car salesmen, snake oil peddlers, strippers who claim people rape them, and the Democratic National Committee.

You see, thats your real argument with Bush. Its not policy or political ideology...if he used the right words you'd be right behind him. Sure, its shallow, but it saves time on the whole critical thinking thing.

H

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 5:45 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

A ringing endorsement, one he shares with used car salesmen, snake oil peddlers, strippers who claim people rape them, and the Democratic National Committee.

And the Republican party and G W B for some.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 5:48 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Except Slick, er Geezer, who is smart and knows better. But he uses his intelligence to try and convince himself - and everyone else- to go back to sleep. So Slick- I mean Geezer, apparently really could be a fascist.

In a soothing drone: There is nothing to the definition of fascism. The test is flawed. The writer is unknown. Other nations do the same. It's happened before. Trust the system. It's not that bad.... Sleep.... go back to sleep... sleep...

Did I get all of it in for you, Geezer?
Oh yeah, except for ad hominem argument of dismissing everyone else as being in the "Bush is evil" crowd...



Ahh. all the golden oldies. Hyperbole, innuendo, putting words in other people's mouths, and that classic accusation of ad hominem argument. It just never gets old. The lack of courtesy about the "slick" nickname I could do without.

Quote:

Geezer- what happens if Bush really IS evil? I guess that thought is not to be actually discussed. GOOD GOD! ANYTHING BUT THAT!



What happens if Bush is really evil? The same thing as if the Duke Lacrosse team or Timothy McVeigh is accused of being really evil. You develop enough evidence to convince a grand jury to indite, and have a trial. There's also plenty of folks in Congress who aren't beholding to the Republicans and could put forth a bill of impeachment. There's been a lot of retoric about this, but no action. Maybe not enough hard evidence.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 6:01 AM

KHYRON


Citizen, I realise your post was (probably) in jest, but it raised some arguments that other people like to bring so I'm going to briefly respond to it as if it weren't meant as I think it was.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
In a democracy the government is working for (at least the majority) of people.


In theory, yes. In practice, impossible.
Quote:

Therefore if people voted for and continue too support the actions of their government they share responcibillity for those actions. A democrating government can't do something if the people don't let it.

This is simply not true, at least in most countries. For instance, the war with Iraq was quite unpopular in America and hugely unpopular in Britain, and it still happened. There isn't really a way to control an executive once it gets voted into power, unless they screw-up big time (and even then that doesn't really matter if they have the legislative (congress/parliament/whatever) on their side). Without some other government body to keep control over the executive, the only other influence is the media, and most people on this forum realise that the media has its own agenda and can hardly be seen as representative of what the people want. So basically, a government can do almost anything and have a good chance of getting away with it. The people are only important in election years.
Quote:

Unless your saying the American government is not a democracy, there's certainly arguments down that road.

In my view, the government that comes closest to being a true democracy is Switzerland, which is a direct democracy, meaning that the people vote on every damn thing. But even this requires the populace to be politically aware of what they are voting for/against, and that isn't always the case. California also has a direct democracy, but there it seems like any proposal that Schwarzenegger supports is accepted or rejected according to how popular he is at that moment. So direct democracy isn't exactly an ideal form of government either.

True democracy is possible only in theory or in a small population that is politically aware, but in almost all cases its implementation sucks. Unfortunately, every other form of government that's been tried is even worse.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 6:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Finn- the "Bush is evil crowd" comment doesn't address the question whether Bush is evil, and doesn't respond to the original topic. Geezer uses various tactics (It's not that bad, other countries do it, it's happened before, the author is unknown, etc etc.) to evade and derail substantive discussion. And YOU are evading the discussion by making Geezer its focus. (And BTW- I'm sure Geezer is smart enough to speak for himself.)

You're right- I shouldn't be calling him "Slick" although "Slick" is actually a friendly, joshing recognition of someone's glibness.

So- Do you think that the USA is heading towards fascism, aided and abetted by people who claim to be patriots but who show fascist behaviors?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 6:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

What happens if Bush is really evil? The same thing as if the Duke Lacrosse team or Timothy McVeigh is accused of being really evil. You develop enough evidence to convince a grand jury to indite, and have a trial. There's also plenty of folks in Congress who aren't beholding to the Republicans and could put forth a bill of impeachment.
ie. "Trust the system. I'm not putting words in your mouth, just condensing your rhetoric. But in your world view, is there a role for the average person to get involved- even worked up- over politics? Or does the demos not belong in democracy?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 6:24 AM

KHYRON


This was directed at Finn, but there are some things that are bothering me.
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
And YOU are evading the discussion by making Geezer its focus.


Geezer was made the focus when rue told him he should look up what a scapegoat is. That's when this discussion for some reason became Geezer vs lots of others. As far as I can tell, all that Geezer did was ask some critical questions of the original rant, as well as the test that it quotes. But apparently critical thinking of something that has already been accepted by most people on the forum simply because it's anti-Bush and against Bush-supporters turns one into somebody that needs to be attacked.
Quote:

(And BTW- I'm sure Geezer is smart enough to speak for himself.)

A couple of people are arguing against Geezer at the moment, but once somebody says something on Geezer's behalf it's "stay away, he can handle himself". Fine, in that case, I'm sure STDoubt is smart enough to argue against Geezer's points himself and doesn't need your help either.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Thu, March 28, 2024 05:27 - 6154 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 02:07 - 3408 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:45 - 5 posts
RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
Wed, March 27, 2024 11:59 - 16 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Wed, March 27, 2024 10:57 - 49 posts
Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
Tue, March 26, 2024 21:26 - 1 posts
You can't take the sky from me, a tribute to Firefly
Tue, March 26, 2024 16:26 - 293 posts

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