REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

There is no God.

POSTED BY: OLDENGLANDDRY
UPDATED: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:46
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 19466
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Monday, August 7, 2006 11:43 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Jumpin' in to say I believe in God.



And The Goddess.





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Monday, August 7, 2006 11:50 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Traveler:
The universe is made of particles which we call mass and sometimes with enough effort we have energy. You know, light, gravity, heat, etc.

Now will someone tell me where all this mass, that is bouncing, around came from.

I've heard of the big bang. But what went bang?

Did someone put their car in reverse by mistake and hit the person behind them? BANG!

Our universe collapsed into a point of singularity, although the 'Big Crunch' took Billions of years to play out the final collapse took billionths of a second and the resulting singularity was unstable, causing it to explode, creating the big bang that started our universe.

There is no beginning there is no end, there is no first time through the loop of creation/destruction and there is no last time through. This is both the first iteration and the nth iteration through the loop.

If this sounds strange it is. We live in a universe of physics, causality and linear time but these are emergent properties of our universe, at the point of singularity our universe does not exist, neither does it’s emergent property of time, so the end and the beginning of our physical universe could exist at the same point.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 12:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?
Because man was created for the opportunity to be in a free-willed relationship with God. Without free will, love is nothing. Without choice of good and evil, free will is nothing. God lets evil exist for free will's sake.

Whence then is tapeworm?

eh- So I'll burn in hell.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 1:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Regardless, it begs the question, if it's so obvious that god isn't real, why do so many people believe? Is it hardwired into the human mind?
Well, yes.... and no.

To say that everyone believes in "god" is false. There have been are still are significant populations where "God" is not a feature. And many religions worshipped gods that TODAY would be alien and unthinkable... our concept of the "higher power" is so malleable to our civilization that I suspect there is nothing intrinsic about the belief in "god" except the most inchoate recognition of our very small place in the 'verse and our tendency for anthropomorphism.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 1:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I think the question is "What" made this world.
Ask a wrong question and you'll get a wrong answer. "What" presupposes an entity. So does the word "why"? I think the REAL question is "how"?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 1:06 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:


Regardless, it begs the question, if it's so obvious that god isn't real, why do so many people believe? Is it hardwired into the human mind? Are they all just sheep?

Should those of us who think we see a deeper truth try to wake up the great mass of the deluded? Do we have any business, or any right to do that? Or should we leave them in their reverie, contented with their myths and happy bedtime stories?

Frankly, I'm not sure. People generally don't like to hear that their most cherished beliefs are hogwash. They certainly don't want to see themselves as suckers.

And here's the bigger question. Do the vast majority of human being need to believe to stay sane? It certainly seems like a possibility. So what if we do manage to convince everyone that god is just a myth, and they all go crazy?



I think it depends on the type of belief they have.

A lot of religion is based on fear, and I think that's what burns most anti-religion types up. The idea that you have to please a Deity by following a strict set of rules or you will be punished for all eternity, or believing in God so you have someone to help when things go terribly wrong - a lot of people see that as irrational, and I can understand why. Certainly if you try to take those beliefs away from people you're setting yourself up for a pretty nasty response. Or perhaps a mental breakdown.

For me, personally, a belief based on fear is no kind of belief at all. My belief that there is a Deity comes from my knowledge of the world around me. I'm not a scientist, so I only have a vague knowledge of biology and physics and so on, but when I see the world around me... how perfectly it works, how it all fits together, how it took millions of years of geological change and evolution to get things juuuuust right to create us, how beautifully perfect photosynthesis is, how everything is connected, how we're all basically recycled piles of stardust walking and talking and thinking and aware and questioningand trying to figure out who we are and why we're here... Lots of people see that as a random collection of unrelated events creating something unique. I see a pattern, a purpose. I don't know what that purpose is - if I did I wouldn't worship The Devine, I'd be Devine, but for me it's just wholly inconceivable that we're just some random cosmic glitch that showed up purely through evolution. I see everything that exists as part of something much greater than what we are currently scientifically aware of. And I don't really think there's any proof out there that could convince me otherwise. But I'm also aware that there's nothing I can say that would convince someone who doesn't see this pattern that it's there. Still, you can't have a pattern if the threads are all the same, can you?

I'm getting metaphorey. Not a good sign. Here's a question. Who do athiests talk to during sex? I'm just curious.





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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 1:13 AM

MAGDALENA

"No power in the 'verse can stop me!"


Hi all... Speaking as someone who used to hang out with God's son a couple of millenia ago I just wanted to say that whilst He wasn't the most hands-on of Dad's (I mean, apparently He never got up in the middle of the night (thought techinically speaking He's up all the time) and didn't change a single nappy in all of Jesus' infancy...) he helped to raise a pretty awesome son!

Of course for those of you who are wanting to know all the truth of our relationship (mine and Jesus) He did kiss me on the... (maybe I'd better not reveal the plot twist in my gospel... someone'll find a complete version eventually, a no-holes barred one ) I did not marry the man... can you imagine living up to the standard of his mother????? I mean, she is one lovely lady, and amazing in how constant her faith was - but believe me there's no way any woman would be good enough to marry her eldest son!!! It'd be a hard act to follow for any woman and I had my hands full with litigation against the men who tried to paint me as a 'jezebel' and slandered my reputation, claiming I'd had several demons living in me... and all this whilst trying to establish the early church...

Well - I guess I've made it pretty clear that I am on personal terms with both God and His son... (haven't spoken with his mother for a while though ) I just wanted to add that faeries are real... stop mis-spelling it please (like I can talk with my bad spelling!!) and only people who don't know any better don't believe in Santa...

Also - there is a special hell, and people who think George W Bush is on God's side are going there...!!!

Shalom Friends - Magdalena x x x

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 3:33 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

how it took millions of years of geological change and evolution to get things juuuuust right to create us,


Millions? Try billions of years.

That's what most people don't understand about evolution. It took so long for everything to happen; but, the time is so massive that (most) people cannot understand it. I can't even imagine millions of years, much less billions.

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:00 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:

So what if we do manage to convince everyone that god is just a myth, and they all go crazy? Hmmm... I


They become A_Firefly_Fan

And ME if I'm not careful Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:02 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Whimsicalnbrainpan:
S'ok CHRISISALL. I was just hoping for some lively debate.


No you weren't.





This is Contradiction Pythonisall

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:42 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Oldenglanddry - While we can all agree that TRS is an idiot and should be either ignored or ridiculed, depending on the time of day - I wonder at your motivation for posting something like this.

You have every right to your belief or non-belief - but so does everyone else.

Addtionally, unless you can back up your claim with fact, I would suggest you not make such inflammatory statements in future.



We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:46 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Magdelena

I would ask you to marry me. Except for the whole YOU ARE A GIRL thing. But Love you Woman!



We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:51 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Magdelena

I would ask you to marry me. Except for the whole YOU ARE A GIRL thing.

So?

Embrace your inner Willow Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 8:30 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:


Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Magdelena

I would ask you to marry me. Except for the whole YOU ARE A GIRL thing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So?

Embrace your inner Willow Chrisisall



But don't overdo it! That way lies flayage and scary veineyness




More signatures available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 8:33 AM

CRUITHNE3753


Here's the proof there is no God:-
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Carroll_%28lottery_winner%29

Now why is my luck never in?

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 8:43 AM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


Sorry if something I said offended you but yes, I was. I may be passionate about what I believe in but I'm not so closed minded that I don't want to hear other poeple's views. I enjoy it actually because sometimes someone will bring up a good point that I've never thought of. I enjoy a good debate.

"Well, here I am." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 8:50 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Whimsicalnbrainpan:
Sorry if something I said offended you,

No, no, I was quoting a line from Montey Python, you know, when the guy wants to argue, but he's told that he's at the wrong window. "This is contradiction, argument is down the hall."
We're cool, okay W?

Minister of silly posts Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 8:55 AM

RIVER6213


Anyone with a different opinion from mine should be knifed in the stomach.

River

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:00 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


*searches for her "I'm with the blatant attention seeker" tee shirt*




More signatures available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:03 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Yeah and the whole "my eyes are black and I have bad dress sense"

Nope, not even Magdalena can tempt me to that!



We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:06 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


And crackly fingers! Don't forget the crackly fingers!





More signatures available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:08 AM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


What Monty Python? A movie or a show? It's been so long since I've seen either. Of course we're cool. My dear and fluffy Lord, I must come off as being thin skinned. I'm not I swear. It takes a hell of a lot to offend me. So we're cool C. Don't fret about it.

"Well, here I am." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:23 AM

CHRISISALL


It was on one of the shows. Required viewing for my High School.

One-time Monty Python addict Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:31 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
It was on one of the shows. Required viewing for my High School.

One-time Monty Python addict Chrisisall



Required viewing for your high school or required viewing to SURVIVE your high school?



We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:38 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:


Required viewing for your high school or required viewing to SURVIVE your high school?



Both, actually.

Or some wat'ry tart would lob a scimitar at ya Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:39 AM

JOSSISAGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
Here's the proof there is no God:-
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Carroll_%28lottery_winner%29

Now why is my luck never in?



I hope you were joking, 'cause that link only proves that that guy is a dick!

Not up on 'net sarcasm, JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD



Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.
"Look at me, I'm STUPID!" The Doctor.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:47 AM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


That is one cool high school!

"Well, here I am." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 12:17 PM

DUKKATI


Ummm..I have read a lot of these posts and I don't think any one was arguing about what was at the bottom of your garden.

I hope there is some fertile substance that allows your garden to grow.
If not then please give us the secret there is a hungry world out there that should be taught how to garden.

Well that is if you can keep them from worrying about their own selfish wants and needs.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,....................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I've been through the system.
It don't work.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 12:21 PM

WASHSYOUNGERSEXIERBR

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges


This thread changed a LOT since yesterday

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 1:22 PM

TRAVELER


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Traveler:
The universe is made of particles which we call mass and sometimes with enough effort we have energy. You know, light, gravity, heat, etc.

Now will someone tell me where all this mass, that is bouncing, around came from.

I've heard of the big bang. But what went bang?

Did someone put their car in reverse by mistake and hit the person behind them? BANG!

Our universe collapsed into a point of singularity, although the 'Big Crunch' took Billions of years to play out the final collapse took billionths of a second and the resulting singularity was unstable, causing it to explode, creating the big bang that started our universe.

There is no beginning there is no end, there is no first time through the loop of creation/destruction and there is no last time through. This is both the first iteration and the nth iteration through the loop.

If this sounds strange it is. We live in a universe of physics, causality and linear time but these are emergent properties of our universe, at the point of singularity our universe does not exist, neither does it’s emergent property of time, so the end and the beginning of our physical universe could exist at the same point.




I don't think it sounds strange at all Citizen.
Time is part of existance. So before and after existance there is no time. Therefore there is no beginning or end.

Actually I sort of suspected it. I mean, it would be rather foolish of us to think we are in the only universe to exist.

Thank You;
Traveler

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 8:44 PM

WHITEFALL


Here's my 2 plat on being an athiest.

Frankly, I don't know if God is real or not, or if the rest of the world is in fact believing in a non-existant diety (in various forms). However, I do know that for whatever reason, I cannot believe in said diety, I cannot accept it. Yet because I don't know if he is real, there is no reason to begrudge people for leaning one way where my brain forces me to lean the other. And oftentimes I'd prefer to believe, for that whole community, for the 'fatherly/motherly' safety feelings, etc... but I can't. So that's my less than rosy picture of athiesm.

Just because we can't prove God exists scientifically does not mean that we can disprove that he exists. It's sorta up for grabs at this point. It's up to science to quantify and then disprove God, and up to God to do some of those miracles he was into back in the day, and nip sciencei in the bud.

Whichever comes first.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 11:21 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Cruithne3753:
Here's the proof there is no God:-
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Carroll_%28lottery_winner%29

Now why is my luck never in?

Surely this is proof that god does exist?

Otherwise how would he make a deal with the Devil?

CitizenIsA Devils Advocate



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 4:19 AM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geekmafia:

The whole "I don't believe in god and am therefore smarter than you" thing among some atheists has always struck me as quite pretentious, it's bit like saying i'm right and you can never prove me wrong.



As an Atheist, I feel compelled to point out that there's a flip side to that coin: "The whole 'I believe in God, and am therefore smarter than you' thing among some Christians has always struck me as pretentious, it's a bit like saying I'm right and you can never prove me wrong." Also, it's a good deal more prevalent. And Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith.

I think that Christians need to realize that the majority of the planet does not share their religious beliefs. They are Atheist, or they are Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish or one of over 200 other religions currently practiced in the world. In my opinion people of all religions, especially the three Abrahamic religions, need to dial the rhetoric down some. Coexistence and a mutual respect for the beliefs of others is absolutely necessary.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 4:42 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
"The whole 'I believe in God, and am therefore smarter than you' thing among some Christians has always struck me as pretentious, it's a bit like saying I'm right and you can never prove me wrong." Also, it's a good deal more prevalent. And Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith.


You make a good point. However, if your right, then my blind faith isn't really gonna hurt eitherof us in the long run. If I'm right your really screwed (says so in the Bible, Revelations 20:15 "Thou art screwed.").

H

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 5:18 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geekmafia:

The whole "I don't believe in god and am therefore smarter than you" thing among some atheists has always struck me as quite pretentious, it's bit like saying i'm right and you can never prove me wrong.



As an Atheist, I feel compelled to point out that there's a flip side to that coin: "The whole 'I believe in God, and am therefore smarter than you' thing among some Christians has always struck me as pretentious, it's a bit like saying I'm right and you can never prove me wrong." Also, it's a good deal more prevalent. And Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith.



And you just lend credence to the quoted poster's point. "Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith." That right there is an I'm-smarter-than-you-so-there comment.

Then you go on to say that the Christian attitude is more prevalent but in the next paragraph say that Christianity is a minor world religion.

I will tell you, from personal experience, I face a lot of derision once people learn that I am a Christian. When it came up in conversation with one particular friend, she told me not only that she was "Disappointed because she thought I was an intelligent person," but also that she lost respect for me. Fact of the matter is that many people view faith (especially Christianity) as a personal crutch for the weak-minded. People couldn't possibly be intelligent, well-spoken, well-read or followers of science and still be a Christian.

***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 5:21 AM

MISBEHAVEN


I don't believe I ever said your faith would hurt me; however, I'll say it now, it just might. Throughout history people of faith have persecuted nonbelievers. We have a 'true believer' in the White House right now, and I think it's fair to say that his policies both foreign and doemstic are strongly driven by his supposed religious beliefs. Take stem cells for example. His faith is part of the reason he's denying funding that might very well lead to our ability to cure some truly awful diseases and injuries. Why block this? Because his interpretation of when life begins, which he concludes through his faith, tells him that a microscopic cell in a Petri dish has a soul and is more important than the actual living breathing human who's suffering with the disease. So yes, his faith may actually end up hurting me and even you.

As for being wrong, I may well be. The most famous argument for believing something for which you have no evidence is Pascal's Wager, which is what you outlined, "if your right, then my blind faith isn't really gonna hurt eitherof us in the long run. If I'm right your really screwed (says so in the Bible, Revelations 20:15 "Thou art screwed.")."

Pascal claimed that it is rational to be a Christian even though the evidence available makes the position quite improbable. Because if by chance Christianity turns out to be true, then you win everlasting salvation. While if it is false—if there is no God and no Heaven or Hell—then you are no worse off than the correct Atheist. On the other hand, if you refuse to believe, you will go to Hell if you are wrong and be no better off if you are right than a Christian who is wrong. An Atheist can never win and he might lose badly. But a Christian just might win, and he can never lose badly. In other words, no matter how improbable the truth of Christianity, it's always the best bet.

There is nothing sanctimonious about this. On the contrary, it is rather fallacious. I wonder if someone who had somehow managed to make himself love Jesus on the basis of this calculation would find that love reciprocated. But it is a matter of little concern, since Pascal's argument is not all it is cracked up to be anyway.

Note first that what is rational to believe has here been separated from what you have any reason to think true. This is the whole point of the argument. Pascal's Wager is thus irrelevant when the question is whether or not God exists. Pascal's Wager, when used by Christians, attempts to show that Christianity is the best regardless of its truth.

However, does the argument work on its own terms? It does not show Christianity to be the best bet. By the method of Pascal's Wager, any other doctrine that attaches everlasting bliss to agreement and everlasting agony to disagreement does equally well. The choice is not, as Pascal tacitly assumes, between Christianity and Atheism alone. The choice must be made between all the different religions according to which adherents go to Heaven while everyone else goes to Hell, Islam, for example. Pascal provides no grounds for being a Christian rather than a Muslim. The choice between them is a 50:50 bet.


Once you see that Pascal's wager supports equally not only Christianity, nor even all established religions, but all possible Heaven and Hell religions, the game is up. For infinitely many such religions are possible. Which will you choose? Choose any one of them and the chance that you have made the best bet is not 50:50 (i.e., 1 in 2), it's one in infinity; this religion versus all the infinitely many other possible Heaven and Hell religions.

Each possible religion including Christianity, is but one ticket in a lottery with infinitely many tickets. Each bet has an equal chance of being best: i.e., an infinitesimal chance. And an infinitesimal chance is no chance at all. Without some evidence, every religion is an equally hopeless bet. And I'm not willing to live my life according to a bunch of people who tell me they have the only answer, and then fail to offer me any proof. If I am wrong, all I can say is that Hell's going to be awfully crowded.





Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 5:53 AM

MSG


check out Whimsical's story and then tell me that!Or better yet go hold a baby

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 6:04 AM

MISBEHAVEN


Originally posted by RugBug:


Quote:

And you just lend credence to the quoted poster's point. "Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith." That right there is an I'm-smarter-than-you-so-there comment.


I'm not saying that I'm smarter, but that what I believe is grounded in scientific fact. It's not an article of faith, which by it's very nature is not a fact.

Quote:

Then you go on to say that the Christian attitude is more prevalent but in the next paragraph say that Christianity is a minor world religion.


A couple of points. Christianity is a missionary religion, thus their attitude is more dominiant as they are continuously seeking converts. Secondly, I meant this attitude is more prevalent in the United States where the overwhelming majority of the population is Christian; consequently, it is more dominant, visible, noticeable etc. And I never said Christianity was a minor religion. Obviously, there are well over a billion practicing Christians; however, there are over six billion people living on this planet, and most of them are not Christian. That doesn't mean that Christianity is not one of the largest religions (last I checked they were in the top three: Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism), but rather there are numerous other religions that when added together have more adherents than Christianity.

Quote:

I will tell you, from personal experience, I face a lot of derision once people learn that I am a Christian. When it came up in conversation with one particular friend, she told me not only that she was "Disappointed because she thought I was an intelligent person," but also that she lost respect for me. Fact of the matter is that many people view faith (especially Christianity) as a personal crutch for the weak-minded. People couldn't possibly be intelligent, well-spoken, well-read or followers of science and still be a Christian.


As for respect for the beliefs of others, here's what I said before, "Coexistence and a mutual respect for the beliefs of others is absolutely necessary." I hope this clarifies my point.







Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 6:35 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Quote:

And you just lend credence to the quoted poster's point. "Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith." That right there is an I'm-smarter-than-you-so-there comment.


I'm not saying that I'm smarter, but that what I believe is grounded in scientific fact. It's not an article of faith, which by it's very nature is not a fact.



The problem is that the assertion that Atheism is based in scientific fact implies that you are more logical and thus "smarter."

Also, I have a problem with the statement that Atheism is grounded in scientific fact. The belief that there is no God cannot be proven through science anymore than the belief that there is a God.

Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
A couple of points. Christianity is a missionary religion, thus their attitude is more dominiant as they are continuously seeking converts.



Well, hopefully in a religion that says non-believers are going to hell (Islam falls under this heading: Jehovah's Witness believe non-followers will die out and Mormons...not sure their belief on hell, but they sure do want to convert you) the practitioners would want to "convert" their friends and loved ones. It may be odious to you that someone wants to tell you of Jesus' love, but isn't it just as odious if your most cherished loved ones believe you're going to hell but do nothing about it?

Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
Secondly, I meant this attitude is more prevalent in the United States where the overwhelming majority of the population is Christian; consequently, it is more dominant, visible, noticeable etc.



I apologize, I was thinking mainly of Protestant sects. Catholicism significantly raises the numbers of Christians not only in the U.S., but in the world as well.

I do think it is interesting that I, as a Christian, feel I am in the minority and you, as an Atheist, feel that the Christian mindset is more prevalent.



***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 7:20 AM

CITIZEN


Religions ranked by size (estimates vary but these numbers are as good as any):

# Christianity: 2.1 billion
# Islam: 1.3 billion
# Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
# Hinduism: 900 million
# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
# Buddhism: 376 million
# primal-indigenous: 300 million
# African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
# Sikhism: 23 million
# Juche: 19 million
# Spiritism: 15 million
# Judaism: 14 million
# Baha'i: 7 million
# Jainism: 4.2 million
# Shinto: 4 million
# Cao Dai: 4 million
# Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
# Tenrikyo: 2 million
# Neo-Paganism: 1 million
# Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
# Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
# Scientology: 500 thousand



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 7:31 AM

RUGBUG


Citizen,

Does whatever site you pulled that from break down Catholics vs. Protestants?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the numbers are incorrect. But that in my experience, throughout my life, I have always been in the minority as a Christian.

***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 7:35 AM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

The problem is that the assertion that Atheism is based in scientific fact implies that you are more logical and thus "smarter." Also, I have a problem with the statement that Atheism is grounded in scientific fact. The belief that there is no God cannot be proven through science anymore than the belief that there is a God.


I don't personally believe that logic equates to intelligence. Some of the most brilliant people in the world have been people of faith. And as I said before, I certainly don't think that I'm more intelligent becuase I don't believe in God; nevertheless, Atheism remains grounded, for most of us, largely in the realm of scientific evidence that has long been established as true. To be certain, science can't prove that God doesn't exist, but Christianity can't prove that he does. If it could, it wouldn't have to be taken on faith.


Quote:

I do think it is interesting that I, as a Christian, feel I am in the minority and you, as an Atheist, feel that the Christian mindset is more prevalent.


This is intriguing. I don't understand how, as a Christian, you could feel persecuted when Christians compromise the majority of the U.S. population, and are effectively one of the most powerful political constituencies in this country. Can you imagine anyone saying, "I don't believe in God, and I want to be your next President of the United States." That person would never be elected. I think I'm safe in saying that if anyone in the country is in the minority, it's Atheists. That said, it's an interesting discussion.





Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 7:38 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
Each possible religion including Christianity, is but one ticket in a lottery with infinitely many tickets. Each bet has an equal chance of being best: i.e., an infinitesimal chance.


My Dad, no philosopher he, says that you can't win the lottery if you don't play. Your well stated argument leaves only one sure loser...those who choose not to play.

And you can cite all the facts and figures you want. I have absolute definitive and legal proof that God exists. Its eyewitness testimony...my own, other people. And being a lawyer we always like to cite the busload of nuns witnessing something as the perfect unimpeachable eyewitnesses...

H

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 7:50 AM

CITIZEN


In 1997 there were 42,513,059 Protestants and 60,018,436 Roman Catholics in the United States.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 7:51 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
[B And Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith.

B]



state these facts please.




We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 8:01 AM

MISBEHAVEN



Quote:

My Dad, no philosopher he, says that you can't win the lottery if you don't play. Your well stated argument leaves only one sure loser...those who choose not to play.


Indeed, it's true that you can't win the lottery if you don't play; however, it's also been said that, "A lottery is a tax on stupidity". Please don't take that the wrong way, becuase I don't mean it to sound like I'm saying people of faith are unintelligent. But at the end of the day, your chances of winning the world's jackpot on religions remains minuscule.

Quote:

And you can cite all the facts and figures you want. I have absolute definitive and legal proof that God exists. Its eyewitness testimony...my own, other people. And being a lawyer we always like to cite the busload of nuns witnessing something as the perfect unimpeachable eyewitnesses...


I won't argue against your faith, it is what it is. As for the nuns, I would hardly say that nuns, priests, monks, ministers, reverends etc. are unimpeachable. I'm sorry, but the Church lost all crediblity with me when they started abusing children and then actively working to cover it up, rather than turning the offenders over to the authorities to be prosecuted.



Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 8:09 AM

MISBEHAVEN




Quote:

state these facts please.


I think we all know the world is billions of years old, not thousands. It was created over billions of years, not in seven days. I think it safe to say man wasn't created from a pile of dirt, nor woman from rib. Do I really need to go on here?

Besides I'm not trying to convert anyone to Atheism, so I really don't think the burden of proof is on me to illustrate that God doesn't exist. I think it should be firmly placed on those who believe he does, since they expect me to devout my life to him.



Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 8:48 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Whether or not there is a god, or gods, I have a problem with a fair number of religions. They first state that god(s) is(are) the mysterious source(s) of life, and death. Then the believers say they have god(s) all figured out.

How can god(s) be both mysterious and powerful, but figured out and able to be played like a fiddle by people?

As to the lottery question, I once asked a co-worker if he wanted to go in on a group lottery purchase. I said "if you don't play, for sure you can't win". He said "if I don't play, for sure I can't lose."

What could you lose by following a religion? If you live your life as you would have without religion, you lose nothing. OTOH, could you be said to be following that religion?

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:04 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
[B And Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith.

B]

state these facts please.



Just to make a distinction: it's not about facts, it's about evidence.

According to science, it is almost as important that a thing be disproven or proven. As this is not the case with a being that supercedes natural law, the very thing which science uses to determine everything, God's existence is somewhat of a moot point. I'm not saying there is or isn't a God; I'm just saying the argument goes nowhere because of the supernatural aspect.

As for the facts, there's this: the Big Bang and evolution. These two would not be theories (in science speak, a theory is a generally accepted hypothesis, not just mere conjecture) if scientists didn't put in countless hours of research and study.

Big Bang links:

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/universe/b_bang.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

Evolution links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

http://www.talkorigins.org/

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:07 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:
The problem is that the assertion that Atheism is based in scientific fact implies that you are more logical and thus "smarter."



Take care, or I'll start screaming about bias against science geeks!

I have to go with MISBEHAVEN and disgree with this. I am an atheist and a scientist, and I'm very good with the logic. In fact, I have a Big Damn Degree from a Big Damn School. But let me tell you - I have some major problems thinking about non-science things. Life skills? Not so much. I'm absolutely useless at many "trivial" things! And I do try, I try very hard.

Yeah - degree or not, I'm just as stupid as anyone out there - trust me! It's such a gross generalization to say logical people are smart. So not true. I can tell you about some of the dopes I knew in my Big Damn School. And I can tell you about some scientific geniuses who are also devoutly religious.

Anyway... smart or no, I do base my atheism on logic, and a lot of it has to do with looking at religion. So much of what I see preached by the varying churches seems to show that humans - well, the humans in power - have built this "God" in their own image, and not the other way around.

Angry God? Jealous God? Male God? Older and white skinned? hmmmm.

This is not to say I'm not spiritual. The more I learn about science, the more awed I am about the universe we live in. (Keeping in mind that science is also our creation, and nature is always more complicated and messy than any equations we use to approximate it.)

So, my primary argument against most organized religions - the ones I experience most in the US, for example - is that they make God too small. Why would a force that can create the system of itsy bitsy particles that make quarks that make protons and neutrons and electrons that combine just so to make the elements that combine to form water and rock and my skin and everything else and our planet and on and on ...

...be interested in whether two men want to be in love and have sex?

Sooo petty. Religion encourages a lot of good things, but it's a shame that so many people believe in an Ultimate Being who is this shallow.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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