REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

There is no God.

POSTED BY: OLDENGLANDDRY
UPDATED: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:46
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:17 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Mal4Prez
Quote:

Angry God? Jealous God? Male God? Older and white skinned? hmmmm.
I happen to know that god is old, white male, with long white hair and a big long white beard, who lives away up here, who's making a list, and checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice ....

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:18 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Mal4Prez
Quote:

Angry God? Jealous God? Male God? Older and white skinned? hmmmm.
I happen to know that god is old, white male, with long white hair and a big bushy beard, who lives away up here, who's making a list, and checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice ....



Damn, I guess that means I'm getting a lump of coal again!


-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:26 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Damn, I guess that means I'm getting a lump of coal again! " Lump of coal, burn in hell - there's an weird symmetry about that.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:28 AM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

I happen to know that god is old, white male, with long white hair and a big long white beard, who lives away up here, who's making a list, and checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice ...


Oh, come on RUE. There's no God, there's just aliens. And we simple-minded humans were genetically engineered by this vastly superior extraterrestrial intelligence.

Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I do think it is interesting that I, as a Christian, feel I am in the minority and you, as an Atheist, feel that the Christian mindset is more prevalent.
I think Xtians tend to fall prey to the persecution complex. That's why they feel so alone and vulnerable as part of a militant majority. Martyrdom is a big part of their religion and besides, it goes well with the whole idea of looking at the universe through a veil of fear and into the abyss of hell.

There's nothing like a twitchy paranoid to ruin your day. Especially if he lives in the WH.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:52 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

I do think it is interesting that I, as a Christian, feel I am in the minority and you, as an Atheist, feel that the Christian mindset is more prevalent.
I think Xtians tend to fall prey to the persecution complex. That's why they feel so alone and vulnerable as part of a militant majority. Martyrdom is a big part of their religion and besides, it goes well with the whole idea of looking at the universe through a veil of fear and into the abyss of hell.

There's nothing like a twitchy paranoid to ruin your day. Especially if he lives in the WH.




That's a load of crap. I am neither twitchy nor paranoid and have no persecution complex. Nor am I Catholic, so I don't believe in the saints or that martyrdom, literal or figurative, is especially honored, don't think Mary was holy or that she remained a virgin, don't need a priest to confess my sins to or tell me what the bible says. Nor do I support any organization that covers up heinous crimes such as molestation.

For a real world example, I work in an office of 87 people. There are 4 Christians that I know of (I've been here 7 years, so I've had time to get to know people. Could there be more? Certainly). There are 15 Catholics. That's what I call a minority. College was similar.

To note, there is a distinction between people who identify themselves as "christian" and those who live their life as a Christian. There are large numbers of people that were simply raised with a faith, no longer practice it, but when asked what their religion is, they fall back on what they were raised with.

Mal4Prez: I don't believe God is either white or entirely male. I think he embodies all aspects of male and female. I use the term 'he' for God because of a patriarchal interpretation of the bible. I do believe he can be angry and jealous, but only in the most positive aspects of those words: righteous anger, etc. But again, those characteristics are not the full embodiment of God. He is also loving, caring, kind, selfless, etc. Basically, anything good you see in humans is a reflection of the goodness of God.

***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:53 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Damn, I guess that means I'm getting a lump of coal again! " Lump of coal, burn in hell - there's an weird symmetry about that.



OMG! You've discovered the buried clue!!

Or maybe not. Let's go with Misbehaven's alien theory... oh wait, the scientologists beat us to it.

SIGNYM - what's the WH?

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 10:03 AM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Let's go with Misbehaven's alien theory... oh wait, the scientologists beat us to it.


Damn that Tom Cruise!

Quote:

what's the WH?


White House



Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 10:05 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


RugBug

I think it all depends on where you live. I live in the bible belt where christians are a dime a dozen it seems. And we have all kinds, rational christians and the irrational fundametalists. Some catholics, that number grows with immigration, but protestant christians are the majority here and everyone else the minority.

It may be that you are in CA and that is why there seems to be more catholics.

Were one in NY or some other large urban area the mix might be very different.

PS - I am a converted catholic that was raised first baptist by a presbyterian raised agnostic - WHEW say that five times fast!






We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 10:24 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:
Mal4Prez: I don't believe God is either white or entirely male. I think he embodies all aspects of male and female. I use the term 'he' for God because of a patriarchal interpretation of the bible. I do believe he can be angry and jealous, but only in the most positive aspects of those words: righteous anger, etc. But again, those characteristics are not the full embodiment of God. He is also loving, caring, kind, selfless, etc. Basically, anything good you see in humans is a reflection of the goodness of God.



I think your beliefs are healthy and good, and I got no argument with anything except this: How is righteous anger ever positive? Being angry and absolutely sure you're right? Yikes! I can't believe anyone encourages this and calls it moral! This is why our country (the US) is killing thousands of innocents right now!!

For me, I don't like breaking up my own behavior into the "good" emotions that a sentient being gave me, and then lots of other "bad" things (which came from where?) and then saying that this being may come down on me with "righteous anger" because I make the wrong choices. Wrong as the superior but oh so distant being defines it. That's so limited, and leaves room for people to mess with it in very damaging ways. (Hello pedophiles!)

The "dark" feelings are there for a reason, and they help me survive - not just in the Darwinian sense (I'm more than a little over Darwin, but I'll avoid that tangent) - but my fear and anger and insecurity and even hate actually help me understand and appreciate myself and the world I live in. As long as I keep all these sides of me in balance.

Overall, I think "God" having human emotions makes him/her/it look so petty and small. This being (as I understand it, and don't we all understand it differently and isn't that a good thing!) is on a whole different plane than us. There's a big universe out there, and the little emotion soup we got going here is tiny. Why would God be limited to being like us?

Misbehaven - Oooooh. White House. I see your point and share your fear!!

FMF - I have Catholics, Mormons and a whole lot of Jehovah's witnesses in my extended family. Gah!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 10:53 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

So, my primary argument against most organized religions - the ones I experience most in the US, for example - is that they make God too small. Why would a force that can create the system of itsy bitsy particles that make quarks that make protons and neutrons and electrons that combine just so to make the elements that combine to form water and rock and my skin and everything else and our planet and on and on ...

...be interested in whether two men want to be in love and have sex?



That's part of my problem with organized religions (and my only experience has been with Christianity, so bear with me). It just seems to me that, if this God was so wonderful and magnificent and kind and loving, that anyone who was touched by that and followed him would become a gentle, kind, loving person. Instead, most of the people I've dealt with use their religion to justify their prejudices and bigotry. It's the "I'm right because God's on my side" complex that really makes me angry, because there is no logic or debate with a person like that.

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 11:04 AM

MAL4PREZ


Yinyang - two things...

1) Amen to that! You nailed it!

2) See my signature


-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 11:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


RugBug- Well OF COURSE you feel in the minority! You define Xtian as those who meet your standards of faith! Seems to me that you defined the Xtian religion pretty narrowly, so the feeling of isolation is entirely of your own doing.

Quote:

I don't believe God is either white or entirely male. I think he embodies all aspects of male and female. I use the term 'he' for God because of a patriarchal interpretation of the bible. I do believe he can be angry and jealous, but only in the most positive aspects of those words: righteous anger, etc. But again, those characteristics are not the full embodiment of God. He is also loving, caring, kind, selfless, etc. Basically, anything good you see in humans is a reflection of the goodness of God.
I know this point has been made before, but this god seems puny and petty- a reflection of our human limits. For example, why would God be selfless? God is everywhere! If you have no "self" to be "less" of, that's an irrelevant virtue. Why would God be angry? Anger comes from fear or frustration.

If I were going to think up a god, it would be more unversal.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 11:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I know this point has been made in some fashion several times already - but when I was around 12, and just a little oppositional - I started thinking about god. I was brought up with the idea that there was only 1 true religion and everyone else was going to burn in HELL. So I was considering all those people who were born before Jesus, those who were geographically isolated and never heard the word, those who were simply brought up with other beliefs and couldn't disown them ...

and I figured if there was a god out there who was that unfair, he wasn't going to get my worship, even if it meant I would burn in hell, too.

I haven't come across any argument that would make me rethink that choice.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 11:41 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:
That's a load of crap. I am neither twitchy nor paranoid and have no persecution complex.

I think Signym has a point, it's not going to work for everyone of course but Christians, or at least the vocal ones, do have a big persecution complex. "We were fed to the lions!" excepts it was Christians doin' most of the feedin' and 'pagans' doin' most of the foodin'. How often do we hear how Christmas is under attack, how Christianity is under attack? Seems to me the vocal christians see that they're under attack whenever they don't get everything their own way. Sure not all Christians are like that, but a very vocal proportion are. In fact my aunt took great offence to my decistion to not be Christian.
Quote:

Basically, anything good you see in humans is a reflection of the goodness of God.
Without evil there is no good, Yin and Yang, Hot and Cold, two sides of the same coin. I think if there is a God and a Devil then surely they are one in the same, desctruction is required for creation.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 11:47 AM

RUGBUG


Mal4Prez: I don't think God experiences emotions the way we do. Everything about man has been corrupted. Our emotions are corruptions of what they should be and what I would imagine (although can't prove) God experiences. For instance, we don't love selflessly or unconditionally. Our anger is very, very rarely righteous...most of the time it is self-righteous. (and calling what the Pres is doing anything akin to righteous anger is really distorting what is going on. He is not acting out of righteousness. He is acting out of politic). I'm not even sure I could ever experience true righteous anger is just too much "dark" in me.

Not sure what to make of this comment:
Quote:


Wrong as the superior but oh so distant being defines it. That's so limited, and leaves room for people to mess with it in very damaging ways. (Hello pedophiles!)



Can you clarify?

The Catholic church is as much a political organization as it is a religious one. I doubt you will find one person who will say that the pedophilia that has come to light has any justification. But the church couldn't let the scandal be known or their political might would suffer, so they hid from the world until they no longer could. There is no messing with the definition of their wrong. It is sick and morally and ethically wrong, in no uncertain terms.

YinYang: I too have a problem with people of any religion, but especially mine, who use God to justify prejudice and bigotry. Makes my skin crawl. Those attitudes just cannot be biblically supported, but ignorance and hate is rampant everywhere, even in the church.

***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 11:51 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


How could god have righteous anger? The point's been made before, but if god made everything, and is all powerful, how could (s)he(s) be angry at anything that happens? Is god saying DOH!


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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:03 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Mal4prez:

1)Thanks!

2)Lol!



---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:06 PM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:
That's a load of crap. I am neither twitchy nor paranoid and have no persecution complex.

I think Signym has a point, it's not going to work for everyone of course but Christians, or at least the vocal ones, do have a big persecution complex. "We were fed to the lions!" excepts it was Christians doin' most of the feedin' and 'pagans' doin' most of the foodin'. How often do we hear how Christmas is under attack, how Christianity is under attack? Seems to me the vocal christians see that they're under attack whenever they don't get everything their own way. Sure not all Christians are like that, but a very vocal proportion are. In fact my aunt took great offence to my decistion to not be Christian.



Yea, there are a vocal majority that sound like crazed lunatics. Harry Potter is evil, etc. etc. etc. My own mother won't let me watch Buffy in her house 'cause she thinks it is "of the devil." She can't see past the demons to the metaphor. That's her perogative and she's not out hurting anyone....

Quote:

Basically, anything good you see in humans is a reflection of the goodness of God.
Without evil there is no good, Yin and Yang, Hot and Cold, two sides of the same coin. I think if there is a God and a Devil then surely they are one in the same, desctruction is required for creation.




This is why most religious debates deteriorate to arguments. There is no common paradigm to start from, so there really can't be understanding. Every argument you bring up, I counter, but from a completely different paradigm. You say Good/Evil must exist together in the same being, I say not necessarily. I say there are things outside human understanding. Others say that is the only way to define the world. We disagree on a very basic level which means any discussion is fruitless. BTW, Yin/Yang is eastern spiritual philosophy and yet we are debating the "western" God.

***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:11 PM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
How could god have righteous anger? The point's been made before, but if god made everything, and is all powerful, how could (s)he(s) be angry at anything that happens? Is god saying DOH!




And the point has been made before about free-will. If God was the great puppeteer, plotting and directing the actions of each and every person on Earth, there could be no such thing as righteous anger. But since that isn't how he chooses to be involved in the world, there is room for righteous anger.

***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:15 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
God can kiss my ass.

River


And there is the fundamental issue with god, yes, he can kiss your ass, but will he? And if he won't, which means his personality will not allow him to, how is that different from being unable to? Is it different from being unable to?

After all how is being unable to do something because of physical law any different from being just as unable to do something because of phycological inhibition when talking about whether or not one is able to do a thing?

If god's personality won't allow him to kiss your ass is it really appropriate to say that he can?

-

Yes ... this post has no purpose.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:17 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And here we have the conundrum - the irresistible force (god) and the immoveable object (free will). Is free-will more powerful than an all-powerful god? Now let's suppose the all-powerful god created the immoveable object. It puts your notion of god into a quandry.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:21 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:
That's her perogative and she's not out hurting anyone....

And if she was doing the same thing as the leader of a secular nation?
Quote:

BTW, Yin/Yang is eastern spiritual philosophy and yet we are debating the "western" God.
I practice Shaolin Kung Fu, I probably understand Yin and Yang better than you and I am well aware where the concept comes from .

Point is they are complete opposites but cannot exist without the other, just like Good and Evil. How can one have just one side of a coin?

Religions pretty much generally agree that Evil is destruction and Good is creation, well you can't create without destruction, you can't build a building without demolishing the one that was there before.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:30 PM

RUGBUG


Well, look at me with the last three posts. Not that I feel attacked or persecuted or anything like that (), but this discussion is an example of how most "debates" go in the real world. Majority, I say? Hah!

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
So I was considering all those people who were born before Jesus, those who were geographically isolated and never heard the word, those who were simply brought up with other beliefs and couldn't disown them ...

I haven't come across any argument that would make me rethink that choice.



Again, not a new point of contention. Biblically, there is a "grandfather" clause for those that came before Jesus. Faith is reckoned as righteousness, in biblical terms. How that will all work out, I have no idea.

For those that never heard of Jesus, I could posit some of the various explanations for that, but in the end, it's comes down to 'I don't know for sure.' But because of my faith, and because I believe God is both fair and just, I think it will he will do right by those that fall into that category.


***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:37 PM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
It puts your notion of god into a quandry.



Nope, not really.

Citizen: I'm sure you know more about Yin, Yang and eastern philosophy than I do. My point wasn't depth of knowledge, but rather total different foundations of thought/belief so how can an argument every reach a conclusion? In other words: You're playing soccer, I'm playing football and yet we're debating the rules of the game. There are balls/fields, goals, etc but there really is no common ground to start from. It just can't go anywhere productive, can it?

I've got to go now.

***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:37 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rugbug,

Well, then, that is the difference between following a religion with all its precepts and requirements, and going along for the ride. As I posted (far) above, if you don't actually follow a religion, what claim do you have to its benefits or the potential loss of them?

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:43 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

YinYang: I too have a problem with people of any religion, but especially mine, who use God to justify prejudice and bigotry. Makes my skin crawl. Those attitudes just cannot be biblically supported, but ignorance and hate is rampant everywhere, even in the church.


Let me be clear here RugBug. I realize these are not your attitudes, but I think I have to disagree with you about them not being Biblically supported; they can be. As an Athiest you'll have to bear with me, but I believe the Bible has a few things to say about homosexuality for example. Granted most of it is in the book of Leviticus in the Old Testament, but if I'm not mistaken Paul has a few things to say as well. The problem, as I see it, is that the Old Testament says lots of things that many contemporary Christians rightly disregard: God commands that women who commit adultery are to be stoned; that daughters who disobey their fathers are permitted to be sold into slavery; that slavery itself is acceptable; and the list goes on and on. And as for Paul, well you'd have a hard time finding a bigger homophobe or mysoginist in the Bible. My point is that unfortunatley many, but certainly not all, Christians find textual support in the Bible for all sorts of hateful and prejudical views, which are all too often acted upon. And to be fair, this is not limited to Christians. Islam is at fault as well. I can't for the life of me conceive of following a religion which glorifies beheadings, suicide bombings etc (and yes, I realize this does not extend to all Muslims). So, while there are aspects to many religions that are positive, there are often many negatives to be associated with them too, and they are always backed up with textual evidence. This seems to be the most true with missionary religions.



Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:44 PM

FIZZIX


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Without evil there is no good, Yin and Yang, Hot and Cold, two sides of the same coin. I think if there is a God and a Devil then surely they are one in the same, desctruction is required for creation.



Scientifically, there is no such thing as cold.

Anyway, I take issue with Christianity's conversion properties... I've taken issue with the fact that I'm getting told that I'm going to go to hell for not believing what you do. Guys, IDIC.... Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. It's Vulcan philosophy. Vulcans haven't been in wars since they've adopted this.

Why must we have problems with people who don't believe in what you do? I thought Christians have the whole "turn the other cheek" philosophy going on. If I don't believe what you do, just let me not believe. If I'm wrong, I will burn, and you can gloat. If I'm right, there isn't an afterlife to gloat in.

There are different kinds of athiests. Don't lump us together.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:49 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
It's the "I'm right because God's on my side" complex that really makes me angry, because there is no logic or debate with a person like that.


I always much prefered ther person who says, "I'm right because what I am trying to acomplish is right and the way I working towards that acomplishment is also right, if god is on the other side I guess I'll burn."

I mean lets face it, if it isn't worth eternal damnation it isn't worth doing. That's what hell brings to the table:
I want to make a lot of money in an immoral way.
You'll burn forever if you do.
Maybe I'll try a different way.

I want to save these children because they deserve a chance at life.
You'll go to hell if you do, they're from a town of heritics and this is their punishment as described in Deuteronomy 13:15.
I don't care, I'm helping them anyway.

If you honestly believe that god will send you to hell for all of eternity without the posibility of parole to suffer in almost, but not quite, unimaginble ways for doing certain things then you are left with a very good way of judging which of those things are worth doing.

What's more you can judge anything by that standard, not just the forbidden things. If the god you believe in says that you'll go to hell for marrying outside the religion then pretend you potential spouse is outside of the religion. Would you still marry him or her? If not then you really don't care about that person very much do you?

I'm not saying you should necessarily hold out for someone you do value as much as your immortal soul, I'm just saying it's food for thought.

Especially when it comes to causes where people say, "I'm right becasue god is on my side," you know that that's a pretty flimsy belief in the cause itself. What does it really say? "I'm right because god is on my side but if god changes his mind I'm switching sides in an instant because there is nothing intrinsic about this side that makes it right."

Or maybe not, maybe the person would believe the same thing if god weren't on their side, but if so why the, "because,"?

A far stronger position is, "God is with us because this is right," because the implication is that even if god were not with them it would still be right. Best of all would be, "Yeah, god is on my side, but even if he were on the other team I'd be here because this is right."

And a good way to gauge the importance of a stance to yourself, whether you believe in god and hell or not, is simple: ask yourself, "If there is a god, and there is a hell, and I knew I would burn in that hell forever because I believed/stood for/supported this, would I still believe/stand for/support this?"

If not then your position is more hobbist than anything else, which isn't a problem, it's good to have hobbies, but it's good to really know where you stand before you get too far into a thing.

-

Personally, if the universe isn't the way I think it is, the god that I believe in doesn't exist and one that does send all non-believers to hell does exist, I'm happy that I'm not supporting the real god because, while torture might quickly change my mind, at this point I'd rather burn forever than support the one who decided people should burn forever based on their beliefs.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:52 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:
My point wasn't depth of knowledge, but rather total different foundations of thought/belief so how can an argument every reach a conclusion?

And my point had nothing to do with eastern philosphy save to highlight what I was trying to say, why aren't you picking at the other examples I gave (Hot/Cold, Heads/Tails) lets add a few more, left/right, up down. The point was opposites can not exist without the other, why you feel the need to make it about eastern philosphy not being compatible with western god is utterly beyond me.
Quote:

In other words: You're playing soccer, I'm playing football
Soccer is Football.
Quote:

and yet we're debating the rules of the game.
No, I said Rugby plays with a ball the exact same shape as the ball in American Football, you countered with "but Rugby has different rules!"

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:55 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


CTC,

That's actually the clearest statement of your position on anything, that I've seen. Cool. Nice to hear your voice.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:57 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fizzix:
Scientifically, there is no such thing as cold.

Erm in that case scientifically there is no such thing as hot. Hot and cold are arbitary labels we apply to the scale of thermal energy which is merely atomic excitation.

Antarctica can be cold, but compared to an asteroid in deep space at roughly cosmic background temperature (~3k) it is extremly hot.

Cold is the opposite of Hot, taken strictly neither exist scientifically.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:12 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


RugBug

As the ONE TRUE BOOK says "Do not let your heart be troubled Lorithiel, Spring-maiden of the Eldar," she said, her voice low and soft. "For even in your time of need the Lords of the West have bent their thought upon your Quest, and you do not ride out alone."
Or was that ONE RIng.........hmmmm

I don't think you should feel isolated, you just happened into a discussion that is bound to bring all those with opposing views as well as some who just like playing devils advocate.

All should be entitled to their opinion people, and we should be glad that there is somone in this country that labels themselves a Christian and isn't a raving lunatic.






We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:18 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Citizen

Really the "Western" God and Eastern Philosophy isn't compatible and that is why the East feel the West is so backward.

I don't know about CofE, but over here there is a very definitive teaching of God and right and wrong and there are no gray areas. There is no praying to anyone else, no belief that anything or anyone is to be revered above God. God and God alone is all there is. In the East, as I understand it, there is so much more. So this is not a case of opposites. This is a case of 2 completely different belief systems and I just don't see how they can be compared.




We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:19 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
Quote:

state these facts please.

I think we all know the world is billions of years old, not thousands. It was created over billions of years, not in seven days. I think it safe to say man wasn't created from a pile of dirt, nor woman from rib. Do I really need to go on here?

Besides I'm not trying to convert anyone to Atheism, so I really don't think the burden of proof is on me to illustrate that God doesn't exist. I think it should be firmly placed on those who believe he does, since they expect me to devout my life to him.


But they were not those who asserted that their claims were based on facts. You were. Besides, no one asked you to, "illustrate that God doesn't exist," and to even talk about doing it is to change the subject. You were instead asked to back up your personal claim that, "Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith."

And I think you do need to go on, but in a different way, because all you said was, "Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith." You didn't say which claims those were. So far there seems to be only one claim, "The creation story of the Jewish and Christian faiths can not be taken litteraly," and I can point you to many Jews and Christians who agree with you, so that doesn't exactly set the two appart much.

After all, the dividing line between atheists and non-atheists isn't based on whether or not they believe a certain chapter of a certain book is litteral fact. Someone can reject the entire bible (which would be a mistake, science supports some parts of it) and still be very much non-atheist.

So could you please list which claims atheists base on fact? I'd that muchly.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:23 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Thanks CTC

My thoughts exactly!




We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:29 PM

FIZZIX


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fizzix:
Scientifically, there is no such thing as cold.

Erm in that case scientifically there is no such thing as hot. Hot and cold are arbitary labels we apply to the scale of thermal energy which is merely atomic excitation.

Antarctica can be cold, but compared to an asteroid in deep space at roughly cosmic background temperature (~3k) it is extremly hot.

Cold is the opposite of Hot, taken strictly neither exist scientifically.



No, Heat does exist. Cold does not, scientifically. Cold and Hot are relative terms. Scientifically, there is heat energy. That is heat. Cold is not a sceintifically viable energy. There are only reductions in heat energy.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:30 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


found this on You tube






We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:33 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
This is a case of 2 completely different belief systems and I just don't see how they can be compared.

And when I'm comparing them this will make sense.

Why is no one arguing against Hot and Cold, Left and Right, Up and Down, Heads and tails. Why's the focus on Yin and Yang? I mention Yin and Yang and all of a sudden I'm comparing Christianity to Taoism?

Left and right are opposites and one cannot exist without the other; Yin and Yang are opposites and cannot exist without the other. Am I now saying Taoism and spatial vectoring are one in the same?

What's with the big sticking point on Yin and Yang? Okay imagine I never mentioned Yin and Yang, there's still hot and cold, left and right, up and down, heads and tails to illustrate my point.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:35 PM

CITIZEN


I didn't say anything about heat, I said hot, hot is the opposite of cold, if cold does not exist neither does hot.

And technically isn't absolutle zero, the point where all atomic movement stops cold? At absolute zero there is no thermal energy, no heat...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:41 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Our universe collapsed into a point of singularity, although the 'Big Crunch' took Billions of years to play out the final collapse took billionths of a second and the resulting singularity was unstable, causing it to explode, creating the big bang that started our universe.

There is no beginning there is no end, there is no first time through the loop of creation/destruction and there is no last time through. This is both the first iteration and the nth iteration through the loop.

If this sounds strange it is. We live in a universe of physics, causality and linear time but these are emergent properties of our universe, at the point of singularity our universe does not exist, neither does it’s emergent property of time, so the end and the beginning of our physical universe could exist at the same point.


Maybe links like this are why some people hate me but... does that sound Hindu to anyone else? What little I know about Hinduism tells me that that sounds very Hindu.

Of course what I was taught could be wrong, my teachers were far from infalible.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Whether one is walking to the city or away from the city, one is still on the city road.
Light is the left hand of darkness ...
----------------------------------

There can be no cold without heat. Whether you say that one is the opposite or absence of the other, you can't have one without the other. They are on the same road.

---------------------------------
But reality is not confused by past, present, future; light and dark, hot and cold --- we are.
The path is made by walking on it ....
But the path that cannot be named is not the way.


ramblin' away

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:47 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I thought so too. But I was also in awe of the physics.
Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Our universe collapsed into a point of singularity, although the 'Big Crunch' took Billions of years to play out the final collapse took billionths of a second and the resulting singularity was unstable, causing it to explode, creating the big bang that started our universe.

There is no beginning there is no end, there is no first time through the loop of creation/destruction and there is no last time through. This is both the first iteration and the nth iteration through the loop.

If this sounds strange it is. We live in a universe of physics, causality and linear time but these are emergent properties of our universe, at the point of singularity our universe does not exist, neither does it’s emergent property of time, so the end and the beginning of our physical universe could exist at the same point.


Maybe links like this are why some people hate me but... does that sound Hindu to anyone else? What little I know about Hinduism tells me that that sounds very Hindu.

Of course what I was taught could be wrong, my teachers were far from infalible.


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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 2:22 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Originally posted by christhecynic:

Quote:

But they were not those who asserted that their claims were based on facts. You were. Besides, no one asked you to, "illustrate that God doesn't exist," and to even talk about doing it is to change the subject. You were instead asked to back up your personal claim that, "Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith."


First off, I never said their claims were based on facts, but rather their belief was derived from their faith. Secondly, this thread has largely been devouted to the discussion of whether or not God exists framed within a Christian vs. Atheist context, so I hardly think I was changing the subject; if you had read my comments within the full context of this ongoing discussion you would have realized that. But if your just looking to split hairs, then perhaps I should have said that Atheists back up their claims with scientific evidence.

Now let me say something about scientific theory. Scientific theories are technically speaking theories; however, theories are grounded upon years of scientific evidence and are generally accepted in the scientific community as facts until proven otherwise. The Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Evolution, the Theory of Relativity etc.. Let us take the "Theory of Evolution". Yes it is a theory, but the work being done by geneticists everyday is solidly grounded in the Theory of Evolution. Furthermore, this "theory" is overwhelmingly supported by the scientific community as a fact. That said, some evidence for my belief that God does not exist: The Big Bang Theory and the The Theory of Evolution to name a couple. When these are juxtaposed against the creation myths of any religion, I think science does a more than adequate job of disproving them. Since religious texts are supposedly Divinely inspired, I think one could reasonably draw the conclusion that there is not a God, but rather humanity's need, at a particular point in time, to explain the existence of the world and how it came into creation. Additionally, I did say previously that, "science can't prove that God doesn't exist, but Christianity can't prove that he does. If it could, it wouldn't have to be taken on faith." My belief that God does not exist is, for me personally, based upon science even though I cannot conclusively show that God is not real.





Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:22 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
First off, I never said their claims were based on facts, but rather their belief was derived from their faith.


I'm sorry, I should never assume that someone uses the same version of the English langauge as is used by me because there are so many versions to go around, when I said the words, "You were," I meant, "You were the one claiming your beliefs were based on facts."

I hope that clears things up at least a little.

Quote:

Secondly, this thread has largely been devouted to the discussion of whether or not God exists framed within a Christian vs. Atheist context, so I hardly think I was changing the subject;

You responded to, "state these facts please," in response to your claim of facts with talk about the burden of proof. How does the burden of proof relate to the facts which you claimed existed but did not reveal?

You were the one to bring the facts into the conversation, you were the one to assert there existance, so how does the burden of proof for god have any effect on the stating of the facts in question?

Quote:

if you had read my comments within the full context of this ongoing discussion you would have realized that.

I did, twice actually, but the first time was in reverse so it probably doesn't count.

Quote:

But if your just looking to split hairs, then perhaps I should have said that Atheists back up their claims with scientific evidence.

I really don't care whether it is evidence or fact, I just want to know which claims they back up in this way and which things, fact or evidence, they use to do so.

Quote:

Now let me say something about scientific theory. Scientific theories are technically speaking theories; however, theories are grounded upon years of scientific evidence and are generally accepted in the scientific community as facts until proven otherwise. The Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Evolution, the Theory of Relativity etc.. Let's take the "Theory of Evolution". Yes it's a theory, but the work being done by geneticists everyday is solidly grounded in the Theory of Evolution. Furthermore, this "theory" is overwhelmingly supported by the scientific community as a fact.

I really don't see how this relates to the large context of the conversation, the smaller context of my post and your response to it, or the even smaller context of your post. I would like to point out that I believe the theories you mentioned are correct and am well aware that they are fairly solidly backed up, which seems to be your point.

Quote:

That said, some evidence for my belief that God doesn't exist: The Big Bang Theory and the The Theory of Evolution to name a couple.

According to the (last) Pope, head of the Catholic Church and most prominent religious figure of any sort on the planet, friend of the Dalai Lama, friend to Jews, friend of many Protastants, and so forth, the Big Bang was the way in which God created the universe and Evolution is more than just a theory, it is the Truth.

Quote:

When these are juxtaposed against the creation myths of any religion, I think science does a more than adequate job of disproving them.

That thought is not shared by everyone, could you perhaps explain why you believe that? Also, as I will mention in greater depth in a moment, not all people take creation theories as literal truth.

Quote:

Since religious texts are supposedly Divinely inspired, I think one could reasonably draw the conclusion that there's not a God,

There is a jump that I totally fail to understand. Many believe that the creation myths of their respective religions are divinely inspired metaphores, much has been writen about the metaphore of the apple for instance. So that would in essence prove these people right when they say, as divine doctrine, "This is not the litteral truth."

How is proving certain religious people right a reason to reject god?

Of course that's not the real question, you've gone from, "These things which certain people claim are divinely inspired are not the litteral truth," to, "Thus there is no god." How do you make that leap?

I can show you some things that people claim were writen by Kennedy that are false, does that mean there is no Kennedy? I can, far more easily, show you things that actually were writen by Nostradums (he should have stayed a doctor by the way) which are incorrect, does that mean that the man never existed? (Oh how we would have to rewrite history if that were true.)

I mean I'll give you that if you can disprove the creation story of a given religion you can prove that the god of that religion does not exist as a correct, honest, correctly interpreted, forgery proof, completely litteral story teller being. To my knowledge no god has ever been recorded as claiming those characteristics much less having them and thus you have just disproved a god that no one believes in.

You have not, however, disproved a correct, honest, non-forgery proof, completely litteral story teller god or a correct, honest, forgery proof, non-completely litteral story teller god or a correct, dishonest, forgery proof, completely litteral story teller god or a incorrect, honest, forgery proof, completely litteral story teller god, or any combination of the "non" bits, or any of various other types of god that I simply don't have the volition to write out.

The most comonly believed in type of god I know of is a correct, honest, non-forgery proof, non-completely litteral story teller.

Quote:

but rather humanity's need, at a particular point in time, to explain the existence of the world and how it came into creation.

I've got no real argument with that.

Quote:

Additionally, I did say previously that, "science can't prove that God doesn't exist, but Christianity can't prove that he does. If it could, it wouldn't have to be taken on faith."

I am well aware that you said that, I'm also aware that I never claimed that you said anything contradicting that.

Quote:

My belief that God doesn't exist is, for me personally, based upon science even though I can't conclusively show that God isn't real.

While I am interested in whay your belief is I'd also like to know if I correctly understood the claims that you said science backed up (we can leave out whether it was scientific evidence or fact unless you really want to get into that).

If I managed to read your post correctly the claims that are backed up by scientific _____ seem to be as follows:
1 No religious creation story is the litteral truth.
2 Nothing else you care to share.

Based on 1 you then say that since the creation stories come from texts which are supposedly divinely inspired their inaccuracy means that (in your opinion) there is no such thing as god.

Is that correct? Is the only claim you were refering to when you said, "Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith," the claim that religious creation stories are incorrect?

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:29 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


CTC is my God.




We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:38 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Yeah and the whole "my eyes are black and I have bad dress sense"

Nope, not even Magdalena can tempt me to that!



We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM



Funny coming from a women with "Dirty laundry"

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:50 PM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Funny coming from a women with "Dirty laundry"



just push the button!


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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:57 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Kaneman - take you vendetta elsewhere.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 4:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
[B And Atheists back up their claims with scientific facts, not blind faith.

B]



state these facts please.




One of my fav quotes is by Carl Sagan:

I do not want to believe, I want to KNOW!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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