REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Debate Over

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Thursday, August 31, 2006 14:38
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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 9:56 AM

DREAMTROVE


http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=healthNews&storyID
=2006-08-23T170452Z_01_N23403167_RTRUKOC_0_US-SCIENCE-STEMCELLS.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C3-healthNews-3


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Massachusetts company said on Wednesday it had developed a way to make human embryonic stem cells without harming the original embryo, a finding it said could dispel ethical objections to promising medical research using such cells.

"It is possible to generate stem cells without destroying the embryo and without destroying its potential for life," said Dr. Robert Lanza, chief scientist at Advanced Cell Technology in Massachusetts.



--- Sorry Merck.


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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:03 AM

CITIZEN


I wonder what reason the nut jobs will find for not using stem cells now?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:12 AM

CAUSAL


Cool!

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.


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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I wonder what reason the nut jobs will find for not using stem cells now?




Actually, I haven't heard of ANY one, nut jobs or otherwise, who are against using stem cells. The point of contention for the religious right is the use of 'embryonic' stem cells. Other than that one caviot, there's no problem.

And FYI, George Bush is the 1st President in US history to spend ANY $$ on stem cell research. Carter didn't, Clinton didn't. Neither spent one damn cent of Fed $$ for such research.

Just so ya know.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:03 AM

DREAMTROVE


Auraptor,

You have a point, and miss a point.

The point you have is that no one did a damn thing for these researchers, and it was going on when Carter was president. I remember when my sister, who has a chimeric bone disease, was told that "someday soon there would be something called stem cells."

The missed point is that the story is about embryonic stem cells, now a moot point. I don't know if Citizen missed this point, and you were just responding to him.

But I also feel that Merck is behind this, since every time the USGovt. doesn't pay a stem cell bill, Merck pays it in exchange for shares in the company. Since Merck is Bush's biggest supporter, (bigger lobby than oil) that they asked him to not fund stem cells. A very simple, direct line conspiracy theory, not one of these twelve dot hops.

I think Bush supports his monopoly friends at a great cost to corporate america as a whole. It's part of the part where I think he's a commie pinko traitor. IMHO. If it makes you feel any better, check out the thread where I was just much rougher on Clinton.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:09 AM

CHRISISALL


STEM CELLS ARE PATTERNED AFTER EMBRYONIC STEM CELLS AND AS SUCH ARE POTENTIALLY LIFE-CREATING AND TO SUPRESS THAT POSSIBILITY IS SUPRESSING AND THEREFORE KILLING A LIFE!
That good enough for ya, Citizen?



Pardon me, I must read this Penthouse and rid myself of thousands of potential kids now Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:10 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I wonder what reason the nut jobs will find for not using stem cells now?


Actually I kind of thought this would happen. I never understood why they couldn't harvest from unbilical cords either.

So here is my pro life, anti-science response to this latest development on this important issue:

Fine with me...if it don't hurt nobody (or any potential little nobody's out there) then go research all you can. Just no clones (except Jessica Alba, lets face it we all could use one of those).

H

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:12 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

I wonder what reason the nut jobs will find for not using stem cells now?


Religion.

Prolly the next argument is something on the nature of messing with the divine providence of god, etc etc.

Meh, I don't have a whole lotta room to talk on that one, as I think nuclear fire is the 'fire of the gods' and we shouldn't be playin with that, most especially not weaponising it - but I don't go round ramming my beliefs down on other folks neither.

-Frem

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:12 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I hit the button ONCE, how could it double up?
Bleh, stupid glitch, how bout this for an idea to make double posts worthwhile...

THIS SPACE FOR RENT!

-Frem

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:33 AM

CITIZEN


Dream:
Would it be possible to edit your link? Horizontal scrolling is no fun.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Actually, I haven't heard of ANY one, nut jobs or otherwise, who are against using stem cells. The point of contention for the religious right is the use of 'embryonic' stem cells. Other than that one caviot, there's no problem.

Like I said, I wonder what excuse they'll use now.
Quote:

And FYI, George Bush is the 1st President in US history to spend ANY $$ on stem cell research. Carter didn't, Clinton didn't. Neither spent one damn cent of Fed $$ for such research.
Neither did Lincoln, Kennedy, or Nixon, which is hardly surprising since the benefits of embryonic stem cell research only became apparent in the late 90's and it takes time to put legislation into place.

Well this is an interesting bit of spin. Clinton's administration said they would fund embryonic stem cell research; the resulting legislation was halted by the Bush administration and later cut down to limit funding.

And FYI Bush is the only President to veto congress' decision to loosen restrictions of funding.

Just so ya know



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:16 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Dream - I plead ignorance on much of the stem cell issue. Embryonic or otherwise. Me not a bio chemist. But what little I've gleaned from listening to folks who ARE bio chemist and the like, is that 'adult' stem cells are proving to be far more beneficial than those from embryos. To date, the hooplah over e.s.c.'s are primarily theoretical. And that's not me scoffing at the idea. Maybe down the road, much greater benefit can come from e.s.c's, but just not now. Kinda like how fusion reactors are the goals for solving our energy needs, when all we have today is the technology for fission .

Quote:

Well this is an interesting bit of spin. Clinton's administration said they would fund embryonic stem cell research; the resulting legislation was halted by the Bush administration and later cut down to limit funding.

And FYI Bush is the only President to veto congress' decision to loosen restrictions of funding.



Citizen, you'd better sit down, son. It's you who is spinnin'. Clinton SAID they'd fund ? WOW! What leadership! What vision! What a load of crap! As our beautiful warrior woman once said.. " sayin' ain't doin'! " I stated a simple fact. That Bush was the 1st President to FUND any sort of stem cell research. Bush used his 1st ( and so far only ) veto to NOT spend MORE money on a project he already said he was against! What a relief!

Here's something for you to consider, huckleberry - * Regarding President Bush's veto: 1) expansion of funding was vetoed, not continuation of funding; 2) federal funding, not private funding, was vetoed; 3) only embryonic stem-cell research was affected, not non-embryonic stem-cell research; 4) the toll of human suffering due to dread diseases may be lessened through stem-cell research that does not require destroying one life to treat another.

You've got nothing to debate with, pal. let me do the math here -- nothing into nothing, carry the -- Yep. You got nothin'.

* http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060820/OPINI
ON02/608200303/1009/OPINION




People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 1:33 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Citizen, you'd better sit down, son. It's you who is spinnin'. Clinton SAID they'd fund ? WOW! What leadership! What vision! What a load of crap! As our beautiful warrior woman once said.. " sayin' ain't doin'! " I stated a simple fact. That Bush was the 1st President to FUND any sort of stem cell research. Bush used his 1st ( and so far only ) veto to NOT spend MORE money on a project he already said he was against! What a relief!

Here's something for you to consider, huckleberry - * Regarding President Bush's veto: 1) expansion of funding was vetoed, not continuation of funding; 2) federal funding, not private funding, was vetoed; 3) only embryonic stem-cell research was affected, not non-embryonic stem-cell research; 4) the toll of human suffering due to dread diseases may be lessened through stem-cell research that does not require destroying one life to treat another.

You've got nothing to debate with, pal. let me do the math here -- nothing into nothing, carry the -- Yep. You got nothin'.

* http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060820/OPINI
ON02/608200303/1009/OPINION


Given that you're already trying to turn this into a flame war this is the last time I will speak to you on this matter UNLESS you show yourself to actually be interested in a debate rather than implying I'm an idiot because I don't agree with you in your next post. Please notice I haven't liberally splashed either my last post nor this one with derogatory nicknames nor attempts at humour at your expense "you got nothin'" very imaginative. Also don't call me son again.

Your stating of a simple fact, as you put, without properly quantifying it is the spin. Lie by omission and clouding of the full facts as it were.

It takes time to get things through, Clinton set the ball rolling, then the processes take over, it just so happened that Bush was president when it happened, he didn't want to I'm sure, but had very little choice.

If you'll notice the National Institutes of Health announced it would fund embryonic stem cell research in 2000, still under Clinton’s term, it took time to put together the legislation, until 2001 when Bush was president in fact. Ergo it was Clinton’s administration that enacted the funding, it was an accident of temporality that had Bush in power when it was ready to go through, very much a different situation as to how you'd paint it, yet still the same facts are in evidence, just one of us is excluding some from consideration, one of us is not.

Further proof that things take time to come through:
Congress wanted Bush to loosen restrictions way back in 2001/2, yet it took until 2006 before congress managed to put a vote together.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 1:56 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Ah crap. I posted my response on a concurrent thread that someone else started (Hope for stem cell research). I'll cross-post here.

Quote:

It would seem so [to be a good thing]. But I'd hate to BE that embryo from whom they plucked 10% of my cells (1 cell out of the 8-10 cell stage). I mean, do we REALLY know what that would do to the person--ya know if he ever gets to grow up? It is experimenting on a human being without his consent, assuming that the embryo won't be discarded. And if the embryo is never going to get to become a full grown human, why go through all that trouble?

All this stem cell controversy makes me sick. In the 50's through the 70's, a guy named Robert Becker MD was doing some extremely promising research on dedifferentiation of normal cells. Yep...taking a full grown differentiated cell and converting it into a "pluripotent" embryonic-like undifferentiated cell. His lab got shut down in 1981, for who knows why. If he had been able to continue with that line of research, or if anyone else had joined in that line of research, we'd probably be able to create stem cells by now, without involving embryos at all. The technology is there. No one wants to touch it. Instead, they hem and haw about how they can't progress with curing diseases because of the ethical controversies of stem cell research.

Bullshit. Sorry, this topic really, really pisses me off. I have a very good friend paralyzed in a wheelchair. When I think she might be that much closer to walking today if Becker's lab hadn't been shut down, or if someone else had picked up his work, it gets my goat that they use the stem cell controversy as an excuse to not make any progress.





Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 2:13 PM

DREAMTROVE


CTTS

Congratulations, you've just invented the incredibly weak argument that the Merck elite can use to help deprive the world of cures for fatal illnesses in exchange for power and profit.

Actually, I'm quite certain it would have no effect on them at all. One of the things that makes stem cells special is that they have no generation loss. It's entirely possible to grow a second set of stem cells for your embryo without harming the outcome, or, for that matter, effecting the outcome at all.

The whole thing is of course a cover, disease and disability has always been more profitable to the medical community then cure.

When Jonas Sauk discovered the polio vaccine, he got 400 angry letters from doctors, all to the affect of "you idiot, you just cured the goldmine, with polio, our funding is gone, our chance of a perpetual treatment jackpot drug are gone."

All of which goes to prove my point that you really have to watch the incentives you set in place, call it social engineering or whatever, but the guiding hand must be there to make sure that you don't make death more profitable than life.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 2:15 PM

DREAMTROVE


Just because I'm a nice guy.

Someone else dupe posted this story, I'm reposting that post so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle:

Quote:

MISSTRESSAHARA:

Hope for stem cell research.
"You gonna make biscuits? You gonna make biscuits? You gonna make biscuits?" "No Gir, I'm never making biscuits again" O__O
Scientists Harvest Stem Cells Without Destroying Embryo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Breakthrough technique might get around moral issues, experts say
By Amanda Gardner, HealthDay Reporter


WEDNESDAY, Aug. 23 (HealthDay News) -- In what could prove to be a medical milestone, researchers have succeeded in generating new lines of human embryonic stem cells without destroying the embryo.

The breakthrough may enable scientists to circumvent the ban on federal funding of stem cell research, paving the way for gains in treating or curing diseases such as diabetes, spinal injury and Alzheimer's disease.

"The whole goal of this is to increase the number of stem cell lines available for federal funding and give the field a badly needed jump-start," said Dr. Robert Lanza, senior author of a paper appearing in the Aug. 24 issue of Nature and medical director of Advanced Cell Technology in Worcester, Mass.

Lanza was cautiously optimistic, although he said the final say on whether this strategy could widen U.S. embryonic stem cell research depends on politicians, not scientists.

"The approach described here does not involve the destruction of an embryo, nor does the biopsied cell ever develop into an embryo at any point. Therefore, we hope this method can be used to increase the number of stem cell lines available for federal funding - and thus give the field a badly needed jump-start," Lanza said. "But I guess we'll have to see what the President and Congress have to say about it all."

The promise of embryonic stem cells lies in their ability to be "pluripotent," and develop into any cell type in the body. Experts envision a future where stem cells might help replace diseased or injured tissue, thereby treating a host of ailments.

However, many object to the destruction of embryos inherent in this research. For that reason, embryonic stem cell research in the United States has been severely restricted since Aug. 9, 2001, when President Bush placed limits on federal funding of the field. As of that date, federal funds could only be used to study stem cell lines derived from embryos that had been already been destroyed before the limit was set.

This has turned out to be fewer lines than originally thought, and even fewer high-quality lines.

And while some state and private money has emerged to fill the gap in research funding, experts say it's not been nearly enough. Most scientists agree that federal resources are needed if any credible research gains are to take place.

So far, scientists have obtained embryonic stem cells by taking groups of cells from early embryos before they implant in the uterus. However, this process involves the destruction of the embryo.

Lanza's new paper improves on research his team did last year. In that study, the Massachusetts group succeeded in cultivating mouse embryonic stem cell lines by removing just one cell from the mouse embryo. The procedure is similar to that used for pre-implantation genetic diagnosis, used to check for genetic disorders during in vitro fertilization (IVF). In this case, the mouse embryos survived.

But then, a roadblock. "We tried to apply that to a human system and found that it does not work," Lanza said. "We had to work out a different technique and initially we weren't sure that it was going to work. It was pretty tough. Eventually it worked like a charm."

Here's how. According to Lanza, the new research involved 16 human embryos left over from IVF.

"We used a single-cell biopsy technique to pluck out one cell when the embryo was at the 8-to-10-cell stage," Lanza explained. This is the same stage used for pre-implantation genetic diagnosis. Excising a cell at this point doesn't interfere with the embryo's development, the scientist explained.

However, the cells apparently do not like being co-cultured alone, so they were put into a dish with other cells. This technique worked to keep them alive.

Using this method, Lanza and his team managed to get two stable human embryonic stem cell lines that behaved like conventional embryonic stem cell lines.

"They've now been growing for over eight months, are entirely normal genetically and they were able to generate all of the cell types of the body," Lanza said.

"The real importance of this is the potential that you could have embryonic stem cell lines that are pluripotent from embryos that aren't destroyed," said Paul Sanberg, director of the Center for Aging and Brain Repair at the University of South Florida College of Medicine in Tampa. "If these cell lines were allowed, it could help enhance embryonic stem cell research."

Lanza's company will be working with the scientific community to make the stem cell lines widely available.

"With the right resources, we could recreate as many lines as the scientific community needs without harming the embryos and help other researchers develop the technique," Lanza said. "We could move very quickly."

Next year, he said, Advanced Cell Technology will be filing an investigational new drug application aimed at the eye condition known as macular degeneration.

______________________________________________________________

This is a good thing, dontcha think?



If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting


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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 2:27 PM

DREAMTROVE


Okay,

First, can some tell me how to make the forum not be 2000 pixels wide?

Next, Citizen. Chill. Clinton sucks, Bush sucks, neither one of them are worth a minute of your time defending.

Auraptor,

I took two years of concentrated biochem and a year of concentrated chem during my history studies (which took me many years, I was an unfocused student.) Anyway, I know the subject reasonably well.

Adult stem cell tech has been allowed to develop, this is why it has had more successes, but embryonic stem cells will be able to treat different types of conditions, if allowed to develop, such as my sisters chimeric bon disorder (which means some of her bones came from a different embryo, are genetically different from her, and never took.) So it's an embryonic stem cell issue. Paralysis is often one, organ failures, blood diseases, spinal induries, the list goes on, but all of this misses the point.

The stem cell centers are lacking funding because opposition remains, this discovery should remove that opposition. Arlen Specter said he thought he could drum up enough votes by January to override a veto, now maybe he won't have to, or if he does, this will help.

I responded by buying some stock, I'm not a guy with a lot of cash, but it doesn't seem like a dumb investment. STEM, ASTM, GERN are the major companies in the industry, VIAC is a new entry, but they still have issues.




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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 2:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


CTS- It's NOT THAT EASY to make pluripotent cells from differentiated cells. In fact, it's darn near impossible, which is why the whole fuss with Dolly (the cloned sheep- I'm sure you remember her). It took over 600 tries before they got to Dolly.

And as far as Becker is concerned, I looked him up: he believes colloidal silver can cure everything. So, just to see if there was anything to that line of tought, I went to Pub Med and searched on silver stem cells. What I got out of that search is that silver is toxic and that silver nanoparticles especially so. You may recall back in the old days they used to give newborns silver nitrate eyedrops to kill possible STD germs on the eyeballs?

It seems to me that, as Rue said, you believe anything that's out of the mainstream and disbelieve anything that's in the mainstream.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:02 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
CTS- It's NOT THAT EASY to make pluripotent cells from differentiated cells.


Never said it was easy. By 1981, Becker was able to dedifferentiate cells in amphibians and even rats (the first mammals). But if Becker's work had been continued, we'd have 25 more years of research that could have very well gotten somewhere with humans.
Quote:

And as far as Becker is concerned, I looked him up: he believes colloidal silver can cure everything.
He never said any such thing. If you want to hear what he said about silver, look up his papers or read his books.
Quote:

It seems to me that, as Rue said, you believe anything that's out of the mainstream and disbelieve anything that's in the mainstream.
Uh huh. ANYTHING. Prove it.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:05 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Congratulations, you've just invented the incredibly weak argument that the Merck elite can use to help deprive the world of cures for fatal illnesses in exchange for power and profit.

Huh?

And you think they need MY argument to deprive the world? Wow. Is there a reward for such ingenuity?

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:05 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Okay,

First, can some tell me how to make the forum not be 2000 pixels wide?


Split the url in your first post. Depending on your browser, FFFn doesn't do word-wrap for URLs.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I plead ignorance on much of the stem cell issue. Embryonic or otherwise. Me not a bio chemist. But what little I've gleaned from listening to folks who ARE bio chemist and the like, is that 'adult' stem cells are proving to be far more beneficial than those from embryos. To date, the hooplah over e.s.c.'s are primarily theoretical. And that's not me scoffing at the idea. Maybe down the road, much greater benefit can come from e.s.c's, but just not now.
Rap, you have GOT to stop taking your cues from right-wing talking heads! Do you KNOW what stem cells are??? Prolly not, so here goes....

Each cell contains all of the genes necessary to grow a complete human being. Why don't they? Why don't you get eyes growing on your hand and hair growing in your stomach? It's because a large number of genes in each cell are turned off. In fact, most adult cells are not only highly differentiated they have only 6-12 divisions in their future due to the shortening of the telomeres with each division. www.genlink.wustl.edu/teldb/tel.html

So, if that's the case, how do we keep growing new skin, new blood cells etc? It's because adults also have stem cells. But there are a number of issue related to using adult stem cells including the fact that pluripotent cells have nto yet been found. Also, there is
Quote:

evidence that adult stem cells may not have the same capacity to multiply as embryonic stem cells. Finally, adult stem cells may contain more DNA abnormalities—caused by sunlight, toxins, and errors in DNA replication the course of a lifetime.


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


CTS- Okay, ALMOST anything.

As far as Becker's original work, the only thing I can seem to pull up is stuff about silver. Are we talking about the same guy? Because if you have links to his original work, that would be better than just doing a hand-waving reference.



---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


One last comment- Do y'all recall cold fusion? Human cloning?

Until this is duplicated in another lab, I'll keep the champagne on ice. If it turns out to be the real thing, I'll be happy to pop a few corks with you all!

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:40 PM

DREAMTROVE


Signym,

And if I recall reading that Dolly was not in fact a true clone, but a twin, and that the first actual clone was two weeks later, a rat was cloned in costa rica.

I suspect Colloidal silver is not a miracle cure.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:49 PM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


I so hope this is true! I think stem cell research could help a lot of people who are suffering.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:58 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
CTS- Okay, ALMOST anything.

And where did I disbelieve the mainstream in this instance? Or believe something that is out of the mainstream?
Quote:

As far as Becker's original work, the only thing I can seem to pull up is stuff about silver. Are we talking about the same guy? Because if you have links to his original work, that would be better than just doing a hand-waving reference.
Yeah, the same guy. Becker did do a lot of work with silver. But he never advocated its indiscriminate use. He was always very cautious and used silver (or any of his experimental treatments) only as a last resort when all other traditional treatments have failed.

http://www.earthpulse.net/Becker.htm
Here is a bibliography of his work. (Scroll down past the top links.) Here is an example of his published research.
Quote:

NeuroRehabilitation 2002;17(1):23-31

Induced dedifferentiation: a possible alternative to embryonic stem cell transplants.
Becker RO.

Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Upstate Medical Center, State University of New York, Syracuse, NY 13210, USA.

Induction of local tissue regeneration in the human would best be accomplished if the patient's own cells at the desired site could be caused to dedifferentiate into the required embryonic stem cells. A system involving the electrical iontophoretic introduction of free silver ions into human wounds for their antibiotic effect has been in clinical use since 1975. In addition to a major antibiotic effect, the technique was found to produce the regeneration of all local tissues, apparently by stimulating dedifferentiation of mature human cells. More recently the use of a newly developed silvered nylon fabric has been found to have similar results without the need for electrical parameters. The results of a preliminary laboratory and clinical study of this material are presented.

PMID: 12016344 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Last time I looked, I didn't know the journal "Neurorehabilitation" was out of the mainstream. Just because the mass media doesn't harp on this line of research doesn't mean it is "alternative." If you do a search in Pub Med, you'll that a number of mainstream journals (such as Nature) have published Becker's work.

Anyway, I'm a little tired of that accusation of supporting a double standard. I like you and Rue, but I do wish you guys wouldn't flame me when I disagree with you. Can't we just carry on a civil conversation about the issues without attacking my integrity? Please?

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 4:00 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


It is a good thing, and to hell with the naysayers. If this could have solved breast cancer my mother would still be here.

I'm all for it.

If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 4:17 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Forgive me. It's been busy, I just got some things finished I needed to get done, and the mental fizz is starting to foam out of the bottle.

My first random thought was about the title: 'debate over'. Now, I know what it means, and it's perfectly good colloquial English, but you could read it as "debate over ....." Let's have a debate! BYO topic!

My second random thought was - I'm a clone! What's wrong with cloning? Except, you know, mebee 'one' is the, ahem, failed one.

Third - 'The Arm of the Starfish' (classic sci-fi) sounds like Becker's work. (Robert O Becker - has "The Body Electric: Electromagnetism and the Foundation of Life" for sale at Amazon.)

And then this caught my eye - "Lanza's team let its fertilized eggs grow to the 8- to 10-cell stage. The embryo at that stage is no longer able to divide into twins but the cells can still form any cell or tissue in the body." Actually, a 3 day embryo is in the 8-10 cell stage. Humans can become separate mz twins up to about 12 days, after 12 days they become conjoined mz twins.

So ChrisIsAll - I may have your gottcha. That single cell COULD be the nucleus (so to speak) of a whole 'nother individual ! And then they go and perversely keep it alive but KILL its person-hood, damn them ! Turning it into just another mass of tissue. :croccodiletears:

And now to go home to a nice bottle, OH! I meant glass ... GLASS of wine ...

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 9:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If you do a search in Pub Med, you'll that a number of mainstream journals (such as Nature) have published Becker's work.
CTS- I did search PubMed. All I found under Becker Robert O was two articles, one of which was in Journal Altern Complement Medicine, the other already cited.

I also looked into about a dozen papers that showed up under silver+ stem+ cell to see if it was an active line of research. None of them advocated or studied the use of silver for healing with the exception of ONE paper, which looked at the possible cytotoxic effects of silver-impregnated bandages (cytotoxic for the first day, however burned areas recovered as fast under silver as not). OTOH the use of silver as a TOXIC material was widely discussed.

I also did a google search, and pulled up the same stuff as before. Whatever work Becker did in the 70's didn't make it onto the net. That's why I'm asking for somehting more substantive, 'cause one perr-reviewed article sure isn't much to go on.

I'm very familiar with the many ways that science got it "wrong" from the germ theory of ulcers to continental drift but nobody has duplicated Becker's work. Not a good sign! Also, it's been well-known for decades that some animals (like the starfish that Rue mentioned) are able to re-grow entire limbs. There is a specific mouse (MLR) that can regenerate- perhaps the subject of Becker's study. Even humans can regrow fingertips, The trick was not knowing that it happened but how, and how to induce it in situations where it might not have otherwise occurred.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:26 AM

DREAMTROVE


Just weighing in here.

I didn't know we were taking this colloidal silver seriously. Colloidal silver is a fruitcake identifier. Like crop circles, no offense. Some far out theories turn out to be true, and much of our scientific knowledge, and history, is a collection of those. But 90% or more aren't so lucky. Sort of like frozen embryoes.

I knew a guy who was a heavy believer in this stuff. I think there's an alex jones of science out there bouncing it around. To me, it's a simple rule: Unless you're certain *why* it works, don't use it. This is why I generally avoid allopathy. Allopaths can almost never tell you why a particular pharmaceutical works, it's almost a faith healing institution. The drugs are created through trial and error with no understanding of the mechanisms involved.

Colloidal metals don't make sense. You're body didn't evolve to us colloidal metals, the metals you take in are almost always trapped in some biological molecule. The lifeforms that make those molecule are generally plants. The simple way to better health is better food. The taking in of food in a natual animal process. A lot of other methods are not. The biggest exception I see is that taking a toxin which kills bacteria, without killing you, is a valid idea, but it would also probably make more sense to do it in food form.


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Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:43 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Signy,

Enter the Pub Med ID of the one abstract I sent you, and you'll find "related links" on your right by other authors doing work along the same lines. Becker was at the forefront of regeneration research. It wasn't only starfish. He painstakingly studied mechanisms for triggering regeneration in salamanders, frogs, and finally with rats. In all cases, regeneration takes place after triggering dedifferentiation in already differentiated cells.

Try Google Scholar.
http://scholar.google.com.pe/scholar?q=Robert+O.+Becker&hl=en&lr=&star
t=10&sa=N


Quote:


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v235/n5333/abs/235109a0.html
Stimulation of Partial Limb Regeneration in Rats

ROBERT O. BECKER

Veterans Administration Hospital, and Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Upstate Medical Center, Syracuse, New York

INJURY1,2, nerves3 and hormones4 have been identified as essential for limb regeneration in amphibia. There seem to be differences in the "current of injury" between regenerating and non-regenerating types of amphibians5; partial limb regeneration can be induced in the latter type by simulating the "current of injury" of the regenerating form6. The cellular process of fracture healing in the amphibian is directly related to the electrical phenomena produced by the fractured bone7 and maximally effective ranges for current density can be determined at the cellular level. This led to the concept of a control system the key element of which was the induction of blastema formation in response to appropriate electrical factors8. The absence of regeneration in the mammal may therefore be due to the absence of adequate electrical factors. We report here the consequences of restoring factors which seem to be of practical as well as theoretical interest.



If you want a one stop summary of the history of his work, his book "The Body Electric" (now on sale at Amazon.com as Rue pointed out) describes his experiments in detail.

Much of his work has been duplicated, some hasn't. That's why I'm bitchin' about others not picking up the slack. They haven't even tried and failed. I'm NOT touting Becker as some miracle man. I am saying if billions of dollars had been poured in this direction with competitive research by hundreds of researchers instead of a handful, if his lab hadn't been shut down, the body of Becker's work is promising enough that I am pretty confident we wouldn't have the stem cell debate we have today. He showed that dedifferentiation CAN be artifically triggered and the general direction of how. It remains to work out the details in mammals and humans, and a lot of progress COULD have been made in the last 25 years instead of near zilch.


Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:53 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I didn't know we were taking this colloidal silver seriously.

No, we're not talking about colloidal silver. People who sell colloidal silver often misappropriate Becker's work with silver ions to market their product.

Becker did a lot of work with silver. But silver was only a fraction of his entire body of research. His work was on regeneration. If you cut off a salamander's leg, it will grow a new one. The way it does this is to turn already mature cells into stem cells, which then grow back into new bone, nerve, blood, muscle, skin cells. This is called DEdifferentiation and REdifferentiation.

Becker found that tiny electric currents could trigger regeneration in non-regenerating animals. He was able to trigger regeneration (dedifferentiation and redifferentiation) in frogs, rats, and to a limited extent in humans. In a fraction of this research, he used silver ions in addition to the tiny current.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:58 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I did search PubMed.

Try "Becker RO". He authored under that name. I just did this in PubMed and pulled up more than 2.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:18 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


I expect that the spinmeisters for the Religious Right will take the tidbit about one cell of the embryo being removed for screening during the IVF process, and blow it into a whole other controversy. After all, the stem cell issue isn't about ethics; it's about politics.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


CTS- I didnt' claim that Neurorehabilitation was out of the mainstream. In fact, if you read my reply I cited it as the one peer-reviewed article.

So I scrolled through Becker's bibliography. He seems to have a wide variety of topics under his belt; his main area of interest seems to be the effect of electromagnetic fields but ranges from using silver to disinfect bones to tracing acupuncture conduction paths.

I think that prolly his research on regeneration was before its time. Electrical currents have been used to regenerate bone for a long time so its practical use was in place, but the understanding of genes- what turns them on and off- was not "there" yet.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:55 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
CTS- I didnt' claim that Neurorehabilitation was out of the mainstream.

No, you said I was believing things out of the mainstream. I used that Neurorehabilitation as an example that Becker's work (as a whole) was not out of the mainstream, so I am not sure where that accusation came from in this thread.

Yes, Becker's work was way ahead of its time. It doesn't bother me so much (ok relatively speaking) that his peers didn't jump on the bandwagon right away as Becker's claim (and I have no reason to doubt him) that the powers that be suddenly cut off his funding and shut down his lab ON THE CONDITION HE STOPS WORKING ON REGENERATION. He acquiesced, just to save the jobs of his lab staff. But it didn't last long. They shut down his lab anyway.

THAT pisses me off. Makes me all conspiracy-minded about the power of the pharmaceutical industry. I mourn the lost years of research and the potential for getting that much closer to curing the suffering of countless people. Every time I hear stem cell controversy, I get peeved. That's all.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 8:04 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by DreamTrove:
First, can some tell me how to make the forum not be 2000 pixels wide?

Put a space in the middle of the link so that it can wrap.
Quote:

Next, Citizen. Chill. Clinton sucks, Bush sucks, neither one of them are worth a minute of your time defending.
We're on the same page here, and I'm not defending anyone, I just think credit where credit is due. Auraptor seems to believe GWB is god and all dissent should be silenced. I don't see why I should Chill and let him get away with his borderline troll post made toward me.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 8:39 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


DT,
Quote:

Allopaths can almost never tell you why a particular pharmaceutical works


Naturopaths and homeopaths also don't know 'why' their stuff works, and if one is telling you otherwise - - - RUN !! Or hobble, limp, crawl, or whatever you can manage.

I agree that taking good care of yourself is vital, in every sense. But even if you were to take perfect care of yourself the human body fails in all sorts of ways. And at this point you can't escape man-made chemicals, human-induced super-germs etc. So at some point medical intervention will be inevitably necessary.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 10:26 AM

DREAMTROVE


Rue,

That's not a direct parallel. An herbalist is a merchant, parallel to the pharmacist. The scientists who promote treatments on the web are the doctor parallel, and if they want to sell the product, they explain the underlying science. I don't buy anything that doesn't. And they understand it. This is because PhD's are actually much better educated than MD's. It's a harder science course. The scientists who tell you to take 5-htp or l-carnatine, and the people who make the supplements, know exactly why you should take it. The doctors and drug companies that promote and make paxil etc., have no idea why it works, relatively speaking.

I don't buy flakey stuff which says "take wandaweed, it makes you relax" I want to hear "Rj29 blocks the alpha K+ channel on the gaba neuron stimulating a gaba release."

Herbals also have the plus side that people have usually been taking them for centuries, (and studying them for decades, which is why we know these details) and if there were serious side effects, we're know them already. If the new drug Gwatoximine has ill effects, no one knows but the people in the lab with the dead rats, but that information was supressed.

A look at how allopathy work is enlightening. There is almost no biological science in that science. They try to make unique hard to reverse engineer chemicals, get their patent, and test them on rats to see what happens. If the parkinsons rats show even a 5% improvement, then it's "Hey! we have a new parkinsons drug" regardless of the fact that 6 months later the rats livers turned to tapioca.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 10:39 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

So ChrisIsAll - I may have your gottcha. That single cell COULD be the nucleus (so to speak) of a whole 'nother individual ! And then they go and perversely keep it alive but KILL its person-hood, damn them ! Turning it into just another mass of tissue. :croccodiletears:



How DARE anyone not let a potential human live, so that they cannot die in a war-to-come!?!?!?
HOW WASTEFUL!!!!
We need every grunt for the meatgrinder.

Now I'm scared Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Your stating of a simple fact, as you put, without properly quantifying it is the spin. Lie by omission and clouding of the full facts as it were.

It takes time to get things through, Clinton set the ball rolling, then the processes take over, it just so happened that Bush was president when it happened, he didn't want to I'm sure, but had very little choice.

If you'll notice the National Institutes of Health announced it would fund embryonic stem cell research in 2000, still under Clinton’s term, it took time to put together the legislation, until 2001 when Bush was president in fact. Ergo it was Clinton’s administration that enacted the funding, it was an accident of temporality that had Bush in power when it was ready to go through, very much a different situation as to how you'd paint it, yet still the same facts are in evidence, just one of us is excluding some from consideration, one of us is not.

Further proof that things take time to come through:
Congress wanted Bush to loosen restrictions way back in 2001/2, yet it took until 2006 before congress managed to put a vote together.



citizen, there is no 'lie', nor is there any 'spin' on my part what so ever. The only problem you're having w/ my post are that you can't bash Bush over this nearly as much as you'd like to. Clinton had 8 yrs to 'set the ball rollling', as you put it. An outgoing President can do what ever he/she wants, and leave it up to the next President to either get the glory, or clean up the mess. Likely Clinton had hoped that Gore would benefit from this legacy, and wanted to play politics over the issue of stem cell research. But if it was sooooo important, why not start this YEARS ago, or at the very least, pull a Executive Order out of his shirt sleeve?

Ya gotta give Bush his due here. Be at least that much of a stand up guy and admit Bush was responsible for this.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:43 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hi DT,

Some disagreement, some agreement.

Yes, getting a PhD is harder than getting an MD. What I want to know is - if you get both, but get your PhD before your MD, does the MD training take you backwards?

To reply to your post ... pharmas have mostly PhDs working for them. So the new drugs are the work of PhDs, not MDs who merely prescribe them.

MDs, PhD and MD/PhD's, and pharmas do know about mode of action - you will find that "Benzodiazepines work selectively to enhance the action of the gamma-aminobutyric acid A (GABAA) receptors" for example. The question to both groups - traditional and alternative - is: "Then what?"

No one knows all the places in the brain with that receptor, what other receptors and locations might be involved (agonistic or antagonistic), what feedback mechanisms are invoked or suppressed, what does that communicate to other parts of the brain, and what, ultimately, causes the observed effect.

And while I think that 'natural' cures can be better - for example, light therapy works as well as traditional antidepressants, except it's faster and cheaper - the problem is not that pharmas are making bogus complicated expensive molecules. It's that they're making things that work but don't solve important problems. (Unless less than astounding 'performance' is a life and death issue.)

I hope you don't think I trust in the pharmas or even the FDA all that much. I generally subscribe to the dictum as told to me many years ago (by a very capable doctor - yes they exist): never be the first to use a medicine, but never be the last.



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Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:54 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Ya gotta give Bush his due here. Be at least that much of a stand up guy and admit Bush was responsible for this.

Bush is as responcible for it as Clinton is, yes Clinton set the ball rolling, and Bush enacted a cut down version of the legislation that came from Clinton. The spin is suggesting that this was all down to Bush, look what a great guy he is.

I've already told you why it wasn't done years ago and as for an executive order? Seems a little extreme to bypass standard procedure for scientific research, and even EOs as I understand it are ussually based on existing legislation, which is not the case here. He wasn't exactly an outgoing president when he did it either, the announcement that the federal government would start funding research was made in January 1999.

I don't think Bush was responcible for this, he's pro-life for crying out loud, he would never, in a million years, come up with legislation like this.





More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:09 PM

DREAMTROVE


Rue,

Sure, I was oversimplifying. But the reality is herbalism is more of a science, as it's based on actual knowledge of how the systems interact biochemically. Allopathy has become pretty much a science of trial and error.

I assume you know somthing about this, either you're a pharmacist or something.

'Nobody knows' is a cop out, imho, and generally not true. For instance I know the chemical path p
of 5htp. I believe no one knows the chemical path of paxil. why is taking 5htp together with b6 a problem? b6 mods 5htp into serotonin, if allowed to do so in the blood, serotonin attacks fat, and fosters receptor generation. Otherwise 5htp crosses the blood barrier in about one second, and is transformed into serotonin in the hypothalmus. the excess serotonin is converted to melatonin which gives you the drowsy effect. it's a very simple mechanism.

How does Luvox work? Lexapro ie l-celexa? If try to find this stuff out and there's an awful lot of vague guesswork.

The truth is, I suspect, Allopathy is a one trick pony. Every compound is a toxin which shuts down some biochemical function. Just about all systems in the body are in balance with pro- and anti- systems, as the result of how evolution developed. Rather than just have something which does 'X' you also have some 'anti-X' fighting it. Block anti-X augments the effect of X, block X augments anti-X, or reduces X. The problem is that, since all the compounds are unnatural toxins, they have to be to be patentable, they don't have natural matches in the body. They may malfunction slightly, or they make effect multiple systems. Anti-X blocker boosts X, but it also has an agonist effect on the secretion of anti-Y. Low Y becomes a side effect, even if the systems X and Y themselves aren't interdependent.

Step one, create a new and different compound that no one else has.
Step two, patent it.
Step three, test it one a wide variety of rats with a wide variety of illnesses.
Step four, collect the data and select your treatment pitch
Step five, pitch to the fda, which is run by one of your own employees, make a convincing enough case that the regular suits are satisfied.
Step six, market it to hapless humans.
Step seven, by the time there's a problem and you have to pull it, you have a new drug on the market.

The reason eating dumbweed makes you stupid is that your ancestors ate dumbweed, and the compounds of dumbweed got integrated into our biological system (binding to GABA-B?)
Of course there are many false analogues in nature, and it's a slippery slope overall (THC is a nasty one, Valerian is a GHB+ a methyl, which is not so bad, but there's another one out there with an alcohol or something that causes an imbalance, the name slips my mind at the moment.)

But still, it's a choice between a compound running on known biochemistry, and a toxin with interactions that are anybody's guess. Better safe than sorry.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:29 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

But still, it's a choice between a compound running on known biochemistry, and a toxin with interactions that are anybody's guess. Better safe than sorry.
There's the rub - you claim these compounds run on known biochemistry, while medicines don't. How do you feel about salicylates? Would you count them in the 'known' or 'unknown' column?

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Herbals also have the plus side that people have usually been taking them for centuries, (and studying them for decades, which is why we know these details) and if there were serious side effects, we're know them already
But ehre ARE serious side effects. I presume you take that into account too?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:33 PM

DREAMTROVE


salicylic acid bind to adenosine, I don't know much else about it, I think that these thinks are basically understood, on a much better level than psycho pharmaceuticals.


Signym,

Side effects, not in the same way.

For instance, if you take Kava, which is an adrenal blocker, then the effects are those of blocking adrenaline, including possible liver damage.

With an understudied pharm, there may be other binding properties that no one has yet noticed.

Certainly, I'm not saying herbs are all safe la di da, I'm saying they're better understood, and so the educated consumer can make smart decisions.

There's no way to make smart decisions about pharmaceuticals, because the problems are not yet known, because people haven't been taking them for years and years. You make a trusting decision.

I have no more trust left, so I can't do that. I think we're at a point where if we made trusting decisions, we'd be the guineapigs of the Bush crowd, and not just in medicine.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 6:25 AM

CITIZEN


Herbal side effects are never anywhere near as bad, the ingrediants are in much more natural proportions and they aren't concentrated.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 6:59 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hi DT,

The reason why I asked about salycilates (from salix - willow) is because their mode of action is now only just being teased out. If you think of all the hoopla about Vioxx (withdrawn from the market), COX-1 and COX-2 inhibitors, heart disease and kidney disease etc, aspirin and other salicylates are right in there. Aspirin itself causes severe stomach bleeding as a side effect.

So this to me is not as simple as it may look at first blush.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 10:06 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Bump - hey DT, did you get any of my msgs? I sent 3.

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