REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Am I the only One?

POSTED BY: CHEWIE
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 4, 2006 16:46
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Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:29 PM

CHEWIE


Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that Congress has voted to allow the President of the United States of America to throw out the Geneva Convention? He can now accuse anyone of being a terrorist. Hold them indefinitely, TORTURE them, and NEVER has to prove that they are in fact terrorists?

Am I the only one scared by this?

Chewie


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Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:33 PM

RIVER6213


No, you are not the only one. I too am seriously disturbed by this.

-River

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:34 PM

RIVER6213


Double post

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:43 PM

CHEWIE

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:45 PM

RIVER6213


That\'s a bit disturbing indeed!

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:49 PM

HKCAVALIER


Goddamn. We're a rogue nation. So when are they openning those camps down in Texas?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:56 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Ouch. I'd forgotten about those.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:44 PM

JOSSISAGOD


This brings me back to Bush's comment about this country being a great dictatorship as long as HE was the dictator. And yeah, Bush throwing out the Geneva Convention scares the living out of me!

Fe'nos Tol
JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.
"Look at me, I'm STUPID!" The Doctor.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:35 PM

KANEMAN


Whats with the he thing.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:07 PM

DREAMTROVE


I've had it with the GOP. This was disgusting.

I think there were two arguments that were pretty on target:

Harry Reid (Who is a team strategist like First, he doesn't make policy, just enforces it) made an insightful comment about this being a delaying tactic. The president knows this law can never stand, and that the supreme court will shoot it down, but until they do, no one can shoot Bush down. It's like a temporary invulnerability in a videogame.

The other was Olbermann, who pointed out that Bush had snuck a retro-active self-pardon into the bill.

Democrats don't look any better than they used to, but republicans are looking a lot worse. I think this election I'd vote for the actual commies if they ran. Just about anything is better than what we have. But seriously, I can't make up my mind. Who do you vote for when you know either choice wants to start world war three?

Okay, so here's what I have so far: Steve Greenfield.

http://home.earthlink.net/~greenfieldforsenate/index.html

He's running on a green ticket, which means socialist backing back there somewhere, but he looks pretty libertarian, not too much to quibble. I don't agree with the cut and run, I think that's bad for Iraq, but since no one is actually proposing a *good* plan for Iraq, getting out beats a *bad* plan. He has, of course, zero chance of winning, (he can't even afford six bucks for his own domain name.)

Most importantly, he fits the 'not evil' classification.

Sorry for the little bit of threadjack, but has anyone else done this anti-evil search on their upcoming races?

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:23 PM

CHEWIE


LOL! "anti-evil"? Is there such a thing? But I do agree with you. Its really sad that come election day we shall be forced to choose between the lesser of two evils, instead of the right or just person.

I wish we had a candidate that was "anti-evil".

Chewie

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 8:10 PM

SERGEANTX


Fascism is a powerful meme. It's amazing how these tendencies seem built into society. Is it something about democracy? Human nature? Religion?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:31 PM

CHEWIE


I just watched my local news and was VERY surprised to see that to days vote in congress about these issues were NOT reported AT ALL!! They talked briefly about Congress voting for Bush's wire tap bill, but not ONE WORD about the (what I've come to call) Bush Torture Bill.

WHAT THE HECK!! Why isn't this being screamed about from the hills? Why aren't these people pissed off??? Why aren't others fighting this? Has this administration paid everyone off??? I turned between three local stations and NOT A ONE Reported a thing!

Did anyone else hear anything on their local news?

Chewie

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:42 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by Chewie:
I just watched my local news and was VERY surprised to see that to days vote in congress about these issues were NOT reported AT ALL!! They talked briefly about Congress voting for Bush's wire tap bill, but not ONE WORD about the (what I've come to call) Bush Torture Bill.

WHAT THE HECK!! Why isn't this being screamed about from the hills? Why aren't these people pissed off??? Why aren't others fighting this? Has this administration paid everyone off??? I turned between three local stations and NOT A ONE Reported a thing!

Did anyone else hear anything on their local news?


So, anyone going to start rambling about the 'liberal media' NOW?
Media outlets are only as liberal as the conservatives who own them.
Wish I had cable. Anyone know if the Daily Show reported it? If anyone would, my money is on them.
I am frankly terrified right now.

I have to shout about a few things, though:
Can we PLEASE not talk about 'the lesser of two evils'? I talked to so many people who voted for Nader because they didn't want to vote for the lesser of two evils. So the greater of two evils got it. Twice. Let's drop that attitude, shall we? It only does us harm. If more people had been willing to vote for the 'lesser of two evils' eight years ago, we likely wouldn't be in such a mess right now. If it means the greater evil won't get in, please vote for the lesser. I'm begging you.
Ok, rant over. I'm going to go hide under my bed.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. - Gautama Siddharta

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:09 PM

CHEWIE


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Anyone know if the Daily Show reported it? If anyone would, my money is on them.



lol! I love Jon Stewart . So please don't take this wrong, but its really sad that I have to turn to 'Comedy Central' to get important news! The only other place I've been able to find any real information is 'Countdown with Keith Olbermann', who is quickly becoming a personal hero.

I also see what you mean about the 'lesser of two evils'. You have a very good point.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 1:46 AM

FLATTOP


A copy of the letter that I hand wrote on really nice 50# paper using a fountain pen to my Federal Representative to the House, and both Senators:

----- begin letter -----

Please oppose the President’s request to expand his power to have people tortured and otherwise violate the Geneva Conventions.

If the ‘cruel and unusual’ limits established by the Judiciary of the United States of America are exceeded, a prisoner is being tortured. If the Geneva Conventions are defined or interpreted to offer less protection for prisoners, the Conventions are being violated. You will not convince me otherwise.
‘Cruel and unusual’ represents a higher standard than the Geneva Conventions require; but America has always held itself to higher standards than the rest of the world, and has encouraged others to follow as best they can. If the Legislature grants the Executive the power to torture foreign nationals, use coerced testimony, use secret evidence, make them disappear, hold them without charge, hold them indefinitely, or in any other way violate the Geneva Conventions; the world will follow our lead, “The Americans did it. Why shouldn’t we?”
There are already many laws that would greatly improve our security that are not enforced for want of resources. Information gained through torture and other violations of the Geneva Convention is not worth the cost. No American should be ordered to torture prisoners, and those that volunteer to do so should never be allowed near prisoners. At the Nuremberg trials following World War II, German torturers claimed they were following orders. They were convicted, as were the officers appointed over them.

----- End Letter -----

The faults with our Republic lie not with the politicians. The fault lies with the people.
Good people who would do a much better job of governing do not want the job. They are uncomfortable drawing unto themselves the attention needed to be elected, and with excercising Power. Good people fear having too much Power, hesitate to use it, and would rarely seek to increase it.
Because good people do not seek office, the weak minded and power hungry are the only candidates left. They are happy to run for office, collect hangers-on, and make themselves the center of attention. They will never hesitate to excercise and seek ever greater Power.
Until We The People realize that anyone who WANTS Power has defined themself as unfit to weild Power, and collectively write in the name of a qualified person who DOESN'T want the job; we will have to decide wich steaming pile of goh-se we want to deal with.

----------
Do you know what your sin is Captain?
Awww hell; I'm a big fan of all seven.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 3:21 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Chewie:
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that Congress has voted to allow the President of the United States of America to throw out the Geneva Convention? He can now accuse anyone of being a terrorist. Hold them indefinitely, TORTURE them, and NEVER has to prove that they are in fact terrorists?

Am I the only one scared by this?


You are the only one...except for the terrorists and the people who love them. But they don't count.

I also reject your characterization of the nature and scope of the legislation in question. For the liberals out there, that means I don't think it do what he say it do.

H

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Friday, September 29, 2006 4:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Why is it when ever this President tries to do something which helps protect this country from a very real threat of ISLAMIC terrorism, a specific group of whiners tries to portray it as a fate worse than getting your head cut off ? Whether it's disrupting the financial transactions of terrorist groups, intercepting their phone calls or trying to get relevent information out of those who have sworn to murder as many innocent men/women and children as possible, some still see it as a violation of OUR rights that this Gov't should take steps to protect its citizens


Tell me, just what the HELL are we suppose to do? Act nice to the terrorist and hope they'll go away ? They attacked us LONG before this President came into office, and we did virtually nothing. They kept killing, and this President has finally tried to fight back. Why the HELL is that so god damn wrong ? And spare me the crap about torture. We do NOT torture, not by a long shot. We probably should, in some rare instances, but we don't.


When the 1st innocent citizen gets caught up in this so called threat to our rights, THEN I'll give notice. Not before. This is a war that far too many are denying even exists. This is a war that we did NOT start, and has already come to our shore. Some still refuse to see what is really going on, and instead are putting petty partisan politics ahead of the security of our nation, even the rreservation of civilization itself.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, September 29, 2006 5:07 AM

ANTIMASON


because AURAPTOR- today they are "merely" backsliding on the rights of "terrorists"(defined by the Patriot act as 'anyone who violates ANY state or federal Law), but once this legistlation becomes accepted, common practice, say GOODBYE to the America you think you understand..because their is NO GOING BACK. you NEVER EVER EVER EVER give ANY government that level of control, because this war may never end, and even if iby some miracle it does, they would NEVER willingly relinguish the mechanisms of control that they have established.

today it is Islamic terrorists being detained and tortured in concentration camps... next it will be Americas citizens being detained in Fema camps; and every procedure you condoned to interrogate "terrorists" will be used on US- THE CITIZENS. "do unto others as you would have them do to you", this is a profound concept, but understand... as it is fundemental to peace

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Friday, September 29, 2006 5:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Chewie_ I was going to post on the same topic "Like the goddamn Roman Senate"

HAIL Caesar!


Hero- It also gets rid of habeas corpus. Look into it. The reason why the Senate Republicans voted for it wsa because they hope it will get shot down by SCOTUS. They know- clearly- that it's unconstitutional. You as a lawyer (you ARE a lawyer, right?) should be able to smell that from 3000 ft.

Auraptor- Do you think this will REALLY keep us safer? You keep posing this as an "either-or" problem: Either we tolerate internal fascism OR we're all killed/ enslaved by Islamofascists You have NEVER made the case for your agrument. Try it, I dare you: Show us all how this bill is necessary to keep us "safe".

EDITED TO ADD: I find it appalling that I have to quote Benjamin Franklin to people who are supposed patriots. Do you think that the Founding Fathers faced FEWER challenges than we do now? Think about it: they were fighting not only a recognized government... one which still commanded the loyalty of a great number of colonists, and which would have them hung as traitors should they lose... they wre trying an breathtaking experiment in creating a republic.

And they did not hide behind religion or fascism or convention to achieve their goals. You people who claim to be patriots are sniveling, ass-crapping cowards unfit for freedom.

---------------------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.- Benjamin Franklin

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Friday, September 29, 2006 6:23 AM

GLUEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
This is a war that we did NOT start



"It's not what we say, it's what we do."

We started this by "meddling" in the political affairs of the middle east and our appetite for OIL!

"We Meddle" said by River in "Serenity"

2 Words...habeas corpus...If Auraptor was placed in prison for no reason, would anyone hear his screams?

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Friday, September 29, 2006 6:44 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
...It also gets rid of habeas corpus. Look into it. The reason why the Senate Republicans voted for it wsa because they hope it will get shot down by SCOTUS.



SignyM, your right:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/29/washington/29detain.html

Quote:

Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, the senior Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, arguing for an amendment to strike a provision to bar suspects from challenging their detentions in court, said it “is as legally abusive of the rights guaranteed in the Constitution as the actions at Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo and secret prisons were physically abusive of detainees.”

The amendment failed, 51 to 49.

Even some Republicans who voted for the bill said they expected the Supreme Court to strike down the legislation because of the provision barring court detainees’ challenges, an outcome that would send the legislation right back to Congress.

“We should have done it right, because we’re going to have to do it again,” said Senator Gordon H. Smith, Republican of Oregon, who voted to strike the provision and yet supported the bill.

The measure would broaden the definition of enemy combatants beyond the traditional definition used in wartime, to include noncitizens living legally in the United States as well as those in foreign countries and anyone determined to be an enemy combatant under criteria defined by the president or secretary of defense.

It would strip at Guantánamo detainees of the habeas right to challenge their detention in court, relying instead on procedures known as combatant status review trials. Those trials have looser rules of evidence than the courts.

It would allow of evidence seized in this country or abroad without a search warrant to be admitted in trials.



Hero,

Quote:

...except for the terrorists and the people who love them.


Terrorist lovers and Liberals such as these Republicans who voted against the bill:

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll491.xml

Ron Paul (R-TX)
http://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul.htm

Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD)
http://www.ontheissues.org/AVA/House/Roscoe_Bartlett.htm

Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD)
http://www.ontheissues.org/AVA/House/Wayne_Gilchrest.htm

Walter Jones (R-NC)
http://www.ontheissues.org/AVA/House/Walter_Beaman_Jones.htm

Steven LaTourette (R-OH)
http://www.ontheissues.org/AVA/House/Steven_LaTourette.htm

James Leach (R-IA)
http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Jim_Leach_Homeland_Security.htm

Jerry Moran (R-KA)
http://www.ontheissues.org/AVA/House/Jerry_Moran.htm

AURapter,

Quote:

...When the 1st innocent citizen gets caught up in this so called threat to our rights, THEN I'll give notice.


Don't you understand that we won't ever hear of innocent citizens getting caught up in this because they cannot challenge their detainment? That's the point!

Please, read the bill. This is really creepy stuff:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.6166:


EDIT- You have to enter the ":" at the end to get the link to work. Don't ask me why...

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Friday, September 29, 2006 6:51 AM

ERIC


Quote:

Originally posted by FellowTraveler:

Don't you understand that we won't ever hear of innocent citizens getting caught up in this because they cannot challenge their detainment? That's the point!




Well, there's Maher Arar, but I guess he doesn't count since he's not a 'Merrican citizen, just an insignificant Canadian.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 6:54 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER


Quote:

Originally posted by Eric:
Well, there's Maher Arar, but I guess he doesn't count since he's not a 'Merrican citizen, just an insignificant Canadian.



Arar was detained in Sept. of 2002. Long before this bill passed (yesterday).

EDIT- Oh, innocent. Now I get it. Sorry!

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Friday, September 29, 2006 7:10 AM

ERIC


Of course, I think this bill is obviously meaningless. I mean they're going to do whatever they want anyway, lawful or not. If they get found out, they just fall back on that 'inherent executive authority' crap. Only now they'll detain innocent people indefinitely, to keep stories like Arar's from coming out. Cause, you know, such accounts only help the terr'ists.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 7:22 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



So Auraptor, if a foreign power 'knows beyond a doubt' and they tell us so, that they have captured yankee spies, or hell, whatabout 'yankee terrorists' sneaking around marking cites to be bombed', then in order to unearth our Amerifacist plots, you would say that all methods that we have just afforded ourselves are well within reasonable bounds to be used against Americans?

This is the problem with your reasoning. You would argue I'm sure, that when an Iranian calls an American a terrorist that he is either crazy or dishonest. You would argue that when our administration does it, it is 100 percent certain. That doesn't gel well with our government's track record on anything it has been certain of in these last 5 years. They have not proven to be infalible or even competent at a level where you as the American Citizen should relinquish your responsibility of oversight over their conduct.

But you really don't care...you just want to lash back out at whatever you can pin the pain of 9/11 on. That's not bravery, that's cowardice. Nor is it bravery to toss out our constitutional rights for the sake of your sense of safety - THAT is letting terror win...THAT is letting the terrorists win. THAT is you, succombing to terror.

Pussy.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 7:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm going to quote myself, just because I'm really really pissed:

Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.- Benjamin Franklin

I find it appalling that I have to quote Benjamin Franklin to people who are supposed patriots. Do you think that the Founding Fathers faced FEWER challenges than we do now? Think about it: they were fighting not only a recognized government... one which still commanded the loyalty of a great number of colonists, and which would have them hung as traitors should they lose... they were trying a breathtaking experiment in creating a republic... and their very homes and families were at stake

And they did not hide behind religion or fascism or convention to achieve their goals. You people who claim to be patriots are sniveling, ass-crapping cowards unfit for freedom.


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 7:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I find it interesting that is it the BUSH fanatics that support this bill. What is it about them that makes them willing to trade everything - freedom, security, integrity, humanity, even sanity - for a dull-witted, drug-addled sociopath?

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Friday, September 29, 2006 7:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Fear.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 7:56 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I find it interesting that is it the BUSH fanatics that support this bill. What is it about them that makes them willing to trade everything - freedom, security, integrity, humanity, even sanity - for a dull-witted, drug-addled sociopath?



This is what's been on my mind. What makes fascism such an enduring concept? Why do societies return to it again and again?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, September 29, 2006 8:34 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I find it interesting that is it the BUSH fanatics that support this bill. What is it about them that makes them willing to trade everything - freedom, security, integrity, humanity, even sanity - for a dull-witted, drug-addled sociopath?



This is what's been on my mind. What makes fascism such an enduring concept? Why do societies return to it again and again?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock



Because it's easier for them to do what they're told, than struggle to do what is right.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, September 29, 2006 9:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

This is what's been on my mind. What makes fascism such an enduring concept? Why do societies return to it again and again
Fear.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 9:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And I'd add - greed.

But to get really down and dirty personal, why does Slick support Bush ? (Even though he's too ashamed to admit it, it's obvious. He steps in to Bush's defense at every turn, steps in to the defense of other Bushites when they falter, and never, but never, make a substantive anti-Bush criticism.) Or any of the others? Perhaps that is a topic for another thread, or perhaps they could answer it here. I'd really like for them to say WHY THEY SUPPORT BUSH.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 2:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

And I'd add - greed.
Maybe I've developed a view of our homegrown fascist-supporters that's just too cut-and-dried, but I don't think that people like Geezer, Hero, and Auraptor are greedy. The greedy people, the REAL fascists at the top, promote fear as a tool to satisfy their own greed. If they make "us" afraid enough, then we will flock to them for comfort, not understanding that they are a large source of our fear.

As for why Geezer, Hero, and Auraptor support Bush, I still think it comes down to one concept: Fear.
Geezer: Fear of losing the equilibrium and comfort he's worked so hard to achieve.
Auraptor: Fear of the Alien Menace.
Hero: Fear of being thought of as a hillbilly.

Fear works wonders on people's minds.



---------------------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.- Benjamin Franklin

I find it appalling that I have to quote Benjamin Franklin to people who are supposed patriots. Do you think that the Founding Fathers faced FEWER challenges than we do now? Think about it: they were fighting not only a recognized government... one which still commanded the loyalty of a great number of colonists, and which would have them hung as traitors should they lose... they were trying a breathtaking experiment in creating a republic... and their very homes and families were at stake

And they did not hide behind religion or fascism or convention to achieve their goals. You people who claim to be patriots are sniveling, ass-crapping cowards unfit for freedom.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 2:50 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Auraptor: Fear of the Alien Menace.

Fear works wonders on people's minds.

Well, I'd like to reply but I'm trying to NOT assume anything. I'm hoping more people will respond to "Why I support Bush". (dubya, not Reggie )

However, when it comes to the poster formerly known as AUraptor, I recall he was a fervent Bush supporter even before 9/11. Unfortunately the archives don't go back far enough. But - do you remember when the Chinese forced a US spy plane down? Bush repeatedly made threatening comments like "give us back our plane OR ELSE !" And the Chinese took their sweet time returning the personnel, and even longer taking the plane apart. They finally returned it to the US in pieces. And Bush did - nothing. And the poster formerly known as AUraptor was way down with all of it. From the pointless bluster to the weasel retreat.

So fear is not driving him. At least not fear attributable to 9/11. I'd be curious as to what is.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 3:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Glueman:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
This is a war that we did NOT start



"It's not what we say, it's what we do."

We started this by "meddling" in the political affairs of the middle east and our appetite for OIL!

"We Meddle" said by River in "Serenity"

2 Words...habeas corpus...If Auraptor was placed in prison for no reason, would anyone hear his screams?



That's horse shit and you know it. The Islamic nuts only want to subjugate women, gays and deny everyone their rights to free speech, freedom of religion and damn near any other freedom you can think of. Abe Lincoln suspended habeas corpus for EVERYONE, and the nation survived. I'm not going to be helping any terrorist, so I won't be put in any prison. Nice try at fear mongering though. Remember what Gandalf said to Bilbo, I'm not trying to rob you, I'm trying to help you!

How so many chickens in the Hen house have come to fear the Farmer more than the wolf that's trying to eat them, is beyond me.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, September 29, 2006 7:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


That's what I said: fear of the alien menace.

But Auraptor- you have not yet made the case that this law is even necessary. Would you give up a freedome for no reason?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 9:03 PM

MAGHAFFAR


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

How so many chickens in the Hen house have come to fear the Farmer more than the wolf that's trying to eat them, is beyond me.




Maybe it's because the chickens have finally realized that it's the FARMER [Bush] who will come into their henhouse at midnight and take away as many chickens away to be slaughtered as he damn well likes, while the WOLF may or may not actually show up at all -- plus almost ALL of the WOLVES the chickens have been now thoroughly conditioned to fear live in other countries. Countries that the FARMER seems hell-bent on invading and taking all their oil, etc.

And if you really wanna know who's responsible for murdering MOST of the innocent people in the WTC towers on 9/11 go to Google Video and type in "Terror Storm" and watch the video. Also type 9/11 and see all the vids that pop up on the subject. Go to www.911pressfortruth.com and get the video.

Elements of our Government or Shadow elements thereof have been pulling the strings of GWB and puppets like him for years. Read 1984. Orwell had it all figured out in 1948 when he wrote the book. Only now we got more high-tech toys to do the dirty work with.



==================================================================
Jonathan M.A.Ghaffar - Your Firefly/Serenity MP3 Ringtone Smuggler!
Free MP3 uploader (PC) at: www.tonethis.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
MAGhaffar@wayoftheseekers.com
http://www.WAYoftheSEEKERS.com
http://www.TombofJesus.com --> www.alislam.org

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 1:46 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

This is what's been on my mind. What makes fascism such an enduring concept? Why do societies return to it again and again
Fear.


One can argue that all actions are either motivated by "fear" or "attachment." (Buddhist talk.)

The question is, fear of what?

I would propose that fascism recurs because of a fear of responsibility and awful, hard work. In other words, laziness. It is so much easier to entrust our defense and security to a benevolent government than to take responsibility to arm and secure ourselves. And once you give the government that job, it is only a matter of time before they decide to secure society against its own members, i.e. fascism.

I have said before that an anarchistic or truly libertarian society is a shitty way to live. It would be very much like living on Serenity dodging the Alliance, Niska, and Reavers. Most people don't want to live that way. They want to live on a Core planet with museums and hospitals. They are willing to pay the price.

And I wouldn't blame this law on Bush alone. He isn't in the Senate and the House. We ALL failed.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky
------------------
Of course the people dont want war...that is understood. But voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. -- Hermann Goering

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:04 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
How so many chickens in the Hen house have come to fear the Farmer more than the wolf that's trying to eat them, is beyond me.

Just so we're clear, this is the farmer that has no problem slaughtering all his chickens on mass if that means profit and habitually steals their children away, right?

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

rue wrote:
Friday, September 29, 2006 14:50

AUraptor, I recall he was a fervent Bush supporter even before 9/11. Unfortunately the archives don't go back far enough.



Darn right they don't go back that far. That would be before this site even existed!!! This is why you shouldn't rely on your memory so much. First of all, this site wasn't even up until April 1, 2002. That's over 6 months AFTER we were attacked. And secondly, I didn't member up there until Jan 7, 2004. So, exactly how do you 'recall' that I was a fervent Bush supporter before 9/11 ? I didn't even vote for Bush in the 2000 election, but instead voted for the Libertarian candidate, Harry Browne. So your misconceptions about me, what I think and who I supported show that you're WAY off the mark.

As usual.

AURaptor - Member Since: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 14:37

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 3:08 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

I would propose that fascism recurs because of a fear of responsibility and awful, hard work. In other words, laziness. It is so much easier to entrust our defense and security to a benevolent government than to take responsibility to arm and secure ourselves. And once you give the government that job, it is only a matter of time before they decide to secure society against its own members, i.e. fascism.
Erm, fascism has never reoccurred. It occurred once during the early-mid twentieth century, and it never occurred before then and it hasn't occurred since. That is yet, frankly Bush's government seems to like a few of the Nazi rhetorical techniques.

BTW people tend to confuse Fascism and Nazism, both tend to exalt the state over the individual, and tend to single themselves out as the master race, true Italians for Mussolini's Fascists, the Aryan race for Nazi Germany. One of the major differences is that Hitler's Nazism went further to blame any problems of society on some group, in Hitler's case the International Jew and the Bolsheviks they were in league with. Where in lies the major source of Nazism power, no one likes to think it's their fault, so in Nazism it's someone else's. Didn't pass that University degree? Obviously the International Jew used his banking contacts to prevent you from succeeding (I say his because we all know the international Jew represses women).

Also fear is always a powerful motivator, but we're not talking little psychological fears like being afraid of responsibility (BTW that's a very cynical view you have there, people let Jews get sent to the gas chamber because they're afraid of deciding things for themselves?) we're talking paralysing physical fear that you and your family are under very real physical threat from THEM.

THEY are under your bed, in your homes (and THEY haven't the right). THEY want to kill YOU, THEY HATE you because you're somehow better than them. You have more freedoms and THEY HATE freedom.

These International Jews and Bolsheviks had infiltrated German society, they stayed hidden and rotted the nation from within. They were a real and present danger that was the greatest threat the German nation had ever faced. Such a threat required an extreme response, what's a few freedoms if you're family is at stake?

Enter the war on terror.

And just so we can dispense with the possibility of the flame war, AU, let me complete the meat of any subsequent conversation here so you need not reply:
AU:
What you fail to realise with your ASSumptions is that Terrorists are a real threat, they really are trying to kill us, all of us. You maybe too stupid to see the real threat but they want to kill you and your family. Luckily there are people out there who aren't cowards, and are prepared to work to keep YOU safe.

Me:
Yeah that's what the Nazi's said.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 3:12 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Abe Lincoln suspended habeas corpus for EVERYONE, and the nation survived.



http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html

Quote:

On September 15, 1863, Lincoln imposed Congressionally-authorized martial law. The authorizing act allowed the President to suspend habeas corpus throughout the entire United States. Lincoln imposed the suspension on "prisoners of war, spies, or aiders and abettors of the enemy," as well as on other classes of people, such as draft dodgers. The President's proclamation was challenged in ex parte Milligan (71 US 2 [1866]). The Supreme Court ruled that Lincoln's imposition of martial law (by way of suspension of habeas corpus) was unconstitutional.

"If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war."


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Saturday, September 30, 2006 3:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

AU:
What you fail to realise with your ASSumptions is that Terrorists are a real threat, they really are trying to kill us, all of us. You maybe too stupid to see the real threat but they want to kill you and your family. Luckily there are people out there who aren't cowards, and are prepared to work to keep YOU safe.

Me:
Yeah that's what the Nazi's said.



No, that's not at all what the Nazi's said. The Nazi's used the Jews as scapegoats for all the problems following post WW1 Germany. Fact is, WW1 is what caused Germany's problems, not the Jews. And the Islamic terrorist really ARE trying to kill us. They've repeatedly said so. They've murdered Theo Van Gogh, they decapitated Christian school girls in Malaysia, they raped, shot and blew up over 200 children in Beslan, Russsia, sawed the heads off of over a dozen international workers in Iraq, blew up trains in London and Madrid, murdered 3,000 people in NY, D.C. and Pennsylvania......

For you or anyone to compare the Nazi's propaganda concerning Jews in the 1930's to the very REAL events going on today is to show a level of denial and ignorance unparalleled in human history.

It really does stagger my mind that so many don't see this for what it is. If I tried to figure your mindset on this, I'd go crazy.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 3:29 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, that's not at all what the Nazi's said.

Yes it is. Perhaps you should start reading history rather than rewriting it.
Quote:

The Nazi's used the Jews as scapegoats for all the problems following post WW1 Germany. Fact is, WW1 is what caused Germany's problems, not the Jews. And the Islamic terrorist really ARE trying to kill us. They've repeatedly said so. They've murdered Theo Van Gogh, they decapitated Christian school girls in Malaysia, they raped, shot and blew up over 200 children in Beslan, Russsia, sawed the heads off of over a dozen international workers in Iraq, blew up trains in London and Madrid, murdered 3,000 people in NY, D.C. and Pennsylvania......

For you or anyone to compare the Nazi's propaganda concerning Jews in the 1930's to the very REAL events going on today is to show a level of denial and ignorance unparalleled in human history.

It really does stagger my mind that so many don't see this for what it is. If I tried to figure your mindset on this, I'd go crazy.

I can pick any group that has done things on a par with what you just posted. So who do you want me to malign as the new danger to world freedom? Americans, Britons, Christians, Jews, Postal Workers, Communists, Capitalists, Mothers, Fathers, Candlestick makers? Just say the word and I'll give you a new scapegoat for all the worlds ills.

There's certainly a level of denial and ignorance going on around here, I think some people are confusing where it's coming from...
Quote:

Originally posted by Oracle-Zen:
AU:
What you fail to realise with your ASSumptions is that Terrorists are a real threat, they really are trying to kill us, all of us. You maybe too stupid to see the real threat but they want to kill you and your family. Luckily there are people out there who aren't cowards, and are prepared to work to keep YOU safe.

Me:
Yeah that's what the Nazi's said.


Okay you said exactly what I said you would, you just used more words, why say ten words if you can say it with two anyway?

Do you need me to repeat my responce or can we take it as writ?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 4:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Luckily there are people out there who aren't cowards, and are prepared to work to keep you safe.
Auraptor- The Founding Fathers managed to fight the British and create a new nation.... while their lives, homes, businesses and families were at stake. It wasn't even popular to be a rebel. And not only did they NOT resort to the kind of oppression that you long for they created a document with all of these wonderful guarantees of freedom. THEIR minds weren't enslaved by fear, they weren't looking for the ultimate safety blanket, THEY were focused on liberty. Would you give that away? Are you saying we can't manage half of what they did?


And BTW- You STILL haven't made the case that giving up habeas corpus (and a whole bunch of other rights) is even necessary in any sense. History shows us that the the FF and Lincoln won without the power of random detention. Unless you show us that it is necessary, I will count your opinion as shivering, naked fear of the bogeyman.

But remember, Auraptor- bullets can never kill a nightmare. No laws will ever make you feel safe. No matter what you sacrifice to your fear you will still be afraid. Because fear doesn't come from
the outside- it is within you.
---------------------------------
I faced the bogeymen and came out the other side. You can too.

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 5:25 AM

GLUEMAN


Quote:


How so many chickens in the Hen house have come to fear the Farmer more than the wolf that's trying to eat them, is beyond me.




The problem with the powers the congress has given the "Preznit" is he could possibilly use it on our own US citizens. What happens if the next president doesn't like your political views or see you as a enemy combatant? Who's the Farmer and Who's the Wolf? Look into the mirror...If the tables were turned and you were placed in a detention centers being built by KBR right now somewhere in the USA, what recourse would you have if you committed no crime?

Habeas Corpus?

We need to rise to higher standard.

Hopefully the SCOTUS will save us from ourselfs.


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Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:15 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Quote:

Originally posted by Chewie:
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that Congress has voted to allow the President of the United States of America to throw out the Geneva Convention? He can now accuse anyone of being a terrorist. Hold them indefinitely, TORTURE them, and NEVER has to prove that they are in fact terrorists?

Am I the only one scared by this?

Chewie




Whats more scary?
The vote itself, or the number of armchair neo-Fascist apologists who are prepared to defend it?

Yes, you know who you are.

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 12:05 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Geneva Conventions are treaties signed by reciprocating nations. Al Qaida & other maniac Islamic Terrorist murderers are not any nation and have never signed any civilized treaty about prisoner treatment.

Our soldiers and civilians have been kidnapped, tortured ( real torture, not US type coersion), been beheaded, been tied up to bridges and set ablaze, etc etc. The vile enemy uses women and children to kill other women and children.

These animals have no rights, they are not civilized men, just murderers and promulgators of madness and insanity.

We should do whatever is ever necessary to defend and protect American citizens.

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 1:18 PM

CITIZEN


Yes they aren't Human, so it's okay to do what we like as long as it's not quite as bad as them.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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