REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Who Said It? Osama, Jerry or Pat?

POSTED BY: MAVOURNEEN
UPDATED: Friday, October 13, 2006 09:25
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Friday, October 6, 2006 4:42 AM

MAVOURNEEN


Take this quiz, and see if you can tell who said the quote...

http://www.funnystrange.com/quiz/

*For the record, I got 13 out of 20.

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"


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Friday, October 6, 2006 5:47 AM

ERIC


14 out of 20

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Friday, October 6, 2006 6:42 AM

KURYA


i got 6 out of 20.... i guess all of those religiosu extremisists sound the same to me.

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Friday, October 6, 2006 9:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


An embarassing 11/20- just barely above random chance. I kept attributing things to Osama that were said by our own Xtian Taliban.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, October 6, 2006 9:54 AM

ERIC


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
An embarassing 11/20- just barely above random chance.



Nah, it's okay- it's a clear mandate.

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Friday, October 6, 2006 10:37 AM

CITIZEN


I can't tell the difference, save some are good Religious lunatics and some are bad religious lunatics, what do I win?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, October 6, 2006 10:46 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


I got 15 out of 20. The ones that sounded the most clear, precise and gramatically correct I assumed had to be Bin Ladin.



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Friday, October 6, 2006 11:22 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER


America fail English. That's unpossible!

12 of 20. I hope these people never realize how much they have in common...

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Friday, October 6, 2006 12:10 PM

SASSALICIOUS


9/20. Embarassingly bad, but at least I know my geography even if I can't tell one religious wacko from another.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Friday, October 6, 2006 12:41 PM

SOUPCATCHER


I used a methodology similar to ecgordon's, if it sounded like it was translated (less conversational and more grammatically correct) I attributed it to bin Laden. Worked okay, 15/20. Otherwise, if I just looked at the content, most of the time I hadn't a clue.

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Friday, October 6, 2006 1:16 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


I got 9 out of 20. But really, I think ol Pat and Jerry say all the stupid things in the world. Or most of them.


----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"



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Friday, October 6, 2006 1:58 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


13 out of 20 - and I don't even know who Jerry or Pat are. Should I be happy about that?

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Friday, October 6, 2006 2:00 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
13 out of 20 - and I don't even know who Jerry or Pat are. Should I be happy about that?

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote]

Yes. Be very, very happy


----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"



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Friday, October 6, 2006 5:36 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I can't tell the difference, save some are good Religious lunatics and some are bad religious lunatics, what do I win?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
]


Yes... Jerry and Pat are as bad as they come

" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12


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Saturday, October 7, 2006 12:08 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Yes... Jerry and Pat are as bad as they come

I mean two are acceptable religious lunatics who are to be given a voice and allowed to try and spread theocracies. The other is to be bombed.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 5:50 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Yes... Jerry and Pat are as bad as they come

I mean two are acceptable religious lunatics who are to be given a voice and allowed to try and spread theocracies. The other is to be bombed.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
]


Bomb them all



" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12


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Saturday, October 7, 2006 6:41 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Bomb them all

Would certainly be more even handed. But could we stand the Irony of Abortion clinic workers bombing Christian Fanatics?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 8:35 AM

ANTIMASON


this is why i hang around this board..

i guess i could dig up some secular quotes where it was proposed that we should blow Iraq and Islam to hell..but what good would that do? individuals say and do what they please, religious or not

since many of you are not true-to-the-heart christians, therefore have not relentlessly studied the bible, nor given any consideration to occult perversions, i dont expect you all to know what Jesus Christs true message is, and what are perversions...

but at the same time, it would help if you all didnt take (ironically)as gospel, such bigoted opinions, and then associate them with Jesus and christianity, since the bible does not inspire such behavior or sentiment, and many christians such as myself KNOW FULL WELL THAT THIS IS AN OCCULT CONSPIRACY TO BRING UPON THE ANTICHRISTS GLOBAL GOVERNMENT-therefore we RESIST THIS TYPE OF PROPOGANDA AND HATEFUL RHETORIC, and avoid the divisive polarization of public opinion towards anyone.. christians, liberals, muslims or whoever it may be

when you condescendingly marginalize christianity, you then inherently marginalize the root problem which is the occult, and its influence through institutions who are the real perpetrators of this fascist global government agenda; such as the FED, the CFR and their political members and affiliates

ive said before the GOAL is a NWO, the global government of ANTICHRIST, and 9/11 was an inside job to initiate this agenda, using America as the engine. anyone, including christians, who believe the establishment view of history(like 9/11) are unwitting pawns and accomplices to this agenda, because unless you expose this for what it is, you inadvertantly take part in its fullfillment.. but it is not solely christians... ANYONE who supports the official view of 9/11 is being decieved by an occult conspiracy

this is why you all need to recognize America for what she is; the statue of liberty, the all seeing eye, the fasces, the pentagons and pentagrams.. it is all masonic occult symbolism which alludes to the luciferian fascist conspiracy that is curretnly decieving the whole world!

i beg you to consider what i am saying to you..because the symbolism and documentation is right in front of your faces. you can deny whether God truly exists, but understand that the OCCULT does exist, and they control the world through the central banks.

heres a documentary on the 9/11 lie, and its occult facets of orchestration
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6495462761605341661&q=alex%2B
jones%2Bmartial%2Blaw&pl=true


is the UK predominatly Christian? then why are they also behind America, and in many ways further along with this police state agenda? this is happening universally, irrespective of personal belief

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 9:02 AM

CITIZEN


Yes I've heard it already, when Muslims blow stuff up it's because Muslims are violent and they're religion is hateful. When Christians do it it's because they aren't really Christian and they're under control of the NWO-Occult body snatchers.

So what's an occultist anyway? Are Pagan religions Occult? Because you should probably know that Pagans were practicing the Jesus thing long before Jesus was even a twinkle in God's under active libido.
Quote:

since the bible does not inspire such behavior or sentiment,
If you really think there's no basis for the violent actions of some Christians in the Bible you've either never read the Bible or you're dellusional.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 9:15 AM

ANTIMASON


and when athiests blow stuff up... well their exempt, because only religious people are murderes

i know your take Citizen

show me where i said muslims are evil?? please..quote me! you cant do it.. because I NEVER SAID SUCH A THING

ive gone out of my way, time and again.. to show all of you that my faith affords NO BASIS for the current neo-con agenda. ive even showed you how many of these alleged christians are also affiliated with skull and bones, bohemian grove, masonry, and other OCCULT!@!@@ OCCULT!!!!!! organisations; read the bible where is says 'beware of false teachers and their destruction; beware of herecies, beware of people claiming to be of Jesus, but are of the "synogogue of Satan"... you dont care about any of that, you are content with your own divisive bigoted opinion

once again you are confusing peoples personal opinions, with doctrines actually preached by JESUS in the bible

show me where JESUS, the BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY, is in league with the neo cons... show me the similarities?

until you do, understand that murder and conquest and lies are DISCOURAGED BY JESUS... hnece that well known commandment "thou shalt not kill"!

occultism is to woship idols(money, power, possessions), fallen angels(gods), or a false christ(satan, NOT JESUS).. all of which encompass actions that do not align with Gods will, wich is ALL LOVING


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Saturday, October 7, 2006 9:52 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
and when athiests blow stuff up... well their exempt, because only religious people are murderes

i know your take Citizen

No, you know what you want my take to be because you can't and never have been able to argue against anything I have said. You instead demand I back up some other thing I never said. You ask me to back up why I think Jesus was a mass murderer because I said some Christians kill in the name of Christ.

That's either delusional or blatantly dishonest, which is it?

But lets take you platently BS argument of "and when athiests blow stuff up... well their exempt, because only religious people are murderes". When did I say only religious people kill? When did I say people who are Atheists should be excused of wrong doings? Quote me. You can't because I NEVER SAID THAT!

But to take your argument head on, I guarantee you that more death can be attributed to followers of any major religion through the ages than to Atheists. Also I wouldn't call a Christian who happens to murder someone a Christian murderer, unless that Murder was motivated by their belief in Christianity. You on the other hand make overtures to the extent a murder by an atheist is an atheist murder, but a murder by a Christian is an Occultist murder. Nice double standards. Show me one murder that demonstratably stems from someone believing there is no God.

You are willing to excuse Christianity of any wrong doing, after all it's really the Occultists. Adversely you make overtures along the lines of Atheists have no morals. So what you attempt to accuse me of is demonstratably apt to you, and doesn't apply to me at all.
Quote:

show me where i said muslims are evil?? please..quote me! you cant do it.. because I NEVER SAID SUCH A THING
You've mentioned a number of times the violent hateful nature of Islam, implying that any violence perpetrated by Muslims stems from Islam, I'll dig up the quotes if you like. Adversely you continually say again and again how any act of less than perfect peace and Harmony by Christians is the work of shadowy NWO-Occultists.
Quote:

you dont care about any of that, you are content with your own divisive bigoted opinion
Well I didn't get personal with you, but your bigoted opinion of anyone who you consider to not be Christian is showing through. Oh look another accusation from you that fits you better than me.
Quote:

once again you are confusing peoples personal opinions, with doctrines actually preached by JESUS in the bible

show me where JESUS, the BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY, is in league with the neo cons... show me the similarities?

I can't show you how your definition of Christianity fits in with anything in the real world. You idea of Christianity is of this infallible thing that doesn't actually exist. Your idea of what a Christian is likewise means there are no real Christians, including yourself. I can't show you how anything resembles your definition of Christianity because your definition of Christianity simply doesn't exist.

You've shown yourself utterly incapable of rationally discussing anything remotely relating to you're definition of Christianity so I feel no need to try again.
Quote:

until you do, understand that murder and conquest and lies are DISCOURAGED BY JESUS... hnece that well known commandment "thou shalt not kill"!
Well if you knew anything about the Bible you'd know the correct translation of that sentence is "thou shalt not Murder". Maybe you should do some study into your religion?

Plus I think you'll find the Commandments were given to Moses in the OT, not Jesus in the NT. If you'd care to read a little bit more of the OT you'll find lots of nice stuff that not only allows but encourages killing. No one ever said the Bible wasn't self contradictory.
Quote:

occultism is to woship idols(money, power, possessions), fallen angels(gods), or a false christ(satan, NOT JESUS).. all of which encompass actions that do not align with Gods will, wich is ALL LOVING
Well then essentially Occultism is every religion outside of Christianity. How very convenient for you, if a Christian ever steps out of line you can say "well it's EVERYONE else's fault, nothing to do with us, we're pure we are". Makes you feel better, but unfortunately it doesn't begin to heal whatever is wrong with Christianity that allows this behaviour, because all you peace loving forgiving Christians just turn your backs on the transgressors and console yourselves with the knowledge that they were really evil occultists.

How very Christian of you.
Quote:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Mahatma Gandhi

Rock on Ghandi you nappy wearing hippy.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 12:30 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Yes... Jerry and Pat are as bad as they come

I mean two are acceptable religious lunatics who are to be given a voice and allowed to try and spread theocracies. The other is to be bombed.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.



I mean one tries to spread his theocracy with mass murder and the other two try with ridiculous bible blabber. Who is worse? Dunno? You can't be equating these. Or can you be? I wouldn't put it past you to trivialize mass murder just because you hate religion.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 12:39 PM

DREAMTROVE


9/11. I got 9 wrong, 11 right. I get the point, they sound pretty much the same.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 12:51 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
I mean one tries to spread his theocracy with mass murder and the other two try with ridiculous bible blabber. Who is worse? Dunno? You can't be equating these. Or can you be? I wouldn't put it past you to trivialize mass murder just because you hate religion.

If Jerry and Pat had no voice in the most powerful military nation on Earth, if they lived in, lets say a cave, in, well for arguments sake Afghanistan, if you think they wouldn't be at the head of a Christian Terrorist network you're delusional

Fact is people like Pat and Jerry are probably more dangerous to you than Osama. How many American civilians have been killed by Al Qaeda? 6000? That's less people than the number killed by the IRA, an organisation AURaptor says is 'small time'. Do you trivalise the IRA because they were only killing English people and not the more important American? Killing a few people is all Osama can do, unless you do more in fear of him. Jerry and Pat and those like them who have voices and influence in your government can do much much more.

I don't hate religion, that's crazy talk. I hate religious fanaticism, and the attitude of those of any religion that comfort themselves with speak like "they did it". That attitude, the desire to absolve oneself of all blame is as much a cause of much of the present conflict in the world as the land it's fought on and the bombs and bullets used.

It's the attitude that allows some to not understand why the down trodden people of the middle east may have an axe to grind with the western powers.

"But we're such nice people!". You really think the people over there are any different? It's people the world over, they're the same animal. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe, just maybe, you'd react badly too a western power if it propped up vicious dictators, and killed or supported those that killed your children in order to ensure cheap fuel prices at the pumps so some guy can drive a big fat wasteful SUV?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 12:51 PM

CITIZEN


Double Post.

Occultists made me do it.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 2:44 PM

DARKJESTER


13 out of 20. And almost half the time I was seriously guessing - I had no clue!

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

http://www.fireflytalk.com - Big Damn Podcast

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 6:12 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Yes... Jerry and Pat are as bad as they come

I mean two are acceptable religious lunatics who are to be given a voice and allowed to try and spread theocracies. The other is to be bombed.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.



I mean one tries to spread his theocracy with mass murder and the other two try with ridiculous bible blabber. Who is worse? Dunno? You can't be equating these. Or can you be? I wouldn't put it past you to trivialize mass murder just because you hate religion.



I don't think Osama tries to "spread his theocracy" with mass murder. He wasn't trying to convert the non-Muslim U.S. population to Islam when his organization flew planes into the towers. All 3 are modern religious zealots, using their interpretation of a holy book NOT written by any god to justify hatred, violence, oppression, and ignorance.

They are all three equally atrocious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 6:16 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
this is why i hang around this board..

i guess i could dig up some secular quotes where it was proposed that we should blow Iraq and Islam to hell..but what good would that do? individuals say and do what they please, religious or not

since many of you are not true-to-the-heart christians, therefore have not relentlessly studied the bible, nor given any consideration to occult perversions, i dont expect you all to know what Jesus Christs true message is, and what are perversions...

but at the same time, it would help if you all didnt take (ironically)as gospel, such bigoted opinions, and then associate them with Jesus and christianity, since the bible does not inspire such behavior or sentiment, and many christians such as myself KNOW FULL WELL THAT THIS IS AN OCCULT CONSPIRACY TO BRING UPON THE ANTICHRISTS GLOBAL GOVERNMENT-therefore we RESIST THIS TYPE OF PROPOGANDA AND HATEFUL RHETORIC, and avoid the divisive polarization of public opinion towards anyone.. christians, liberals, muslims or whoever it may be

when you condescendingly marginalize christianity, you then inherently marginalize the root problem which is the occult, and its influence through institutions who are the real perpetrators of this fascist global government agenda; such as the FED, the CFR and their political members and affiliates

ive said before the GOAL is a NWO, the global government of ANTICHRIST, and 9/11 was an inside job to initiate this agenda, using America as the engine. anyone, including christians, who believe the establishment view of history(like 9/11) are unwitting pawns and accomplices to this agenda, because unless you expose this for what it is, you inadvertantly take part in its fullfillment.. but it is not solely christians... ANYONE who supports the official view of 9/11 is being decieved by an occult conspiracy

this is why you all need to recognize America for what she is; the statue of liberty, the all seeing eye, the fasces, the pentagons and pentagrams.. it is all masonic occult symbolism which alludes to the luciferian fascist conspiracy that is curretnly decieving the whole world!

i beg you to consider what i am saying to you..because the symbolism and documentation is right in front of your faces. you can deny whether God truly exists, but understand that the OCCULT does exist, and they control the world through the central banks.

heres a documentary on the 9/11 lie, and its occult facets of orchestration
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6495462761605341661&q=alex%2B
jones%2Bmartial%2Blaw&pl=true


is the UK predominatly Christian? then why are they also behind America, and in many ways further along with this police state agenda? this is happening universally, irrespective of personal belief



As far as I can tell no one ever said that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell were indicative of Christianity as a whole. They represent one hate-filled, extremely right wing facet of it. And unfortunately, this particular facet seems to be gaining ground, exposure, and waging too much control over the government. And why is that?

BECAUSE IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THEM AND THE GOVERNMENT, YOU ARE A GOD HATING TERRORRIST (communist!) WHO WANTS TO DESTROY AMERICA AND ALL WESTERN VALUES (capitalism!)!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Sunday, October 8, 2006 6:19 PM

ANTIMASON


my arguement is that the bible teaches to resist negetive behavior.. so how does the bible then INFLUENCE this behavior? that is my question..

if a politician, or someother prominant official is using christianity as a tool, that action in itself is antichristian

i never said athiests were subhuman, immoral sinners... my point was what motivates an individual to commit any unethical behavior? either way this 'desire' includes christians, athiests and muslims alike; so i dont see how you can single out christians for these deeds

i understand, you are not arguing what Jesus says.. but im telling you that his word is everything, as HE HIMSELF says to enter through the narrow gate, to aviod diception, and to love your neighbor above all else... anything else, by definition, does not align with the LIKENESS of christ, aka christian. when it becomes a tool for conquest, it becomes occult; that is my sole point.

i am imperfect, and likewise i do not judge others for their MINOR imperfections. but the people that come up in these discussions, the Bushs and other far right christian-occultists, i do have a problem with, because they are in posititions to affect enormous amounts of change, and they are perverting JEsus' message... that is where my beef lies; passing occultism off as christianity

the hypocracy is that we each use a double standard.. i mean, what is the title of this thread implying? that religious leaders and terrorists have the same talking points? because i think athiests are just as intolerant towards theists as is vice versa, so why perpetuate this divisiveness?

no one here will even rometely consider the evidence ive put forth, which substantiates MY PREMISE< my entire purpose of responding= which is that many christians in positions of power are secret occultists intentionally teaching diceptive doctrines. the sentiment around here seems to portray christians as these dogmatic, intolerant and bigotted war mongers... when Jesus himself preaches the opposite message; im telling you that the real, shadow agenda, is a one world government for the antichrist... that means that people working towards or supporting this are supporting an occult agenda. many are christians, but their are many who arent.. but by supporting this occult NWO agenda, directly or indirectly, they are being decieved

i am not belittling anyone here for any reason, nor do i wish to get into a mudslinging match with any of you... i simply want you to actually recognize that christianity becomes occultic beyond a certain threshold, and many American institutions like the Fed, the CFR, and societies like the freemasons and skull and bones are examples of occult societies.

i think you should all be aware of that.. rather then discard it as conspiracy crack pot ramblings.. because this is a documented fact

im not excusing any christian who blatantly sins..but why make the distinction of "christian" with the negative connotation.. when all human beings have been murderes and lyers throughout history? i think thats a double standard, because no one ever has anything to say about the athiest population, myself included.. because i have no factual bases to make such assumptions; but christians and other religions are fair game; i think thats hypocritical

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Sunday, October 8, 2006 6:34 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Sassalicious:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Yes... Jerry and Pat are as bad as they come

I mean two are acceptable religious lunatics who are to be given a voice and allowed to try and spread theocracies. The other is to be bombed.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.



I mean one tries to spread his theocracy with mass murder and the other two try with ridiculous bible blabber. Who is worse? Dunno? You can't be equating these. Or can you be? I wouldn't put it past you to trivialize mass murder just because you hate religion.



I don't think Osama tries to "spread his theocracy" with mass murder. He wasn't trying to convert the non-Muslim U.S. population to Islam when his organization flew planes into the towers. All 3 are modern religious zealots, using their interpretation of a holy book NOT written by any god to justify hatred, violence, oppression, and ignorance.

They are all three equally atrocious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever



Sass, he has told America to convert or die after 9-11. That sounds like spreading his religion by the threat of murder to me. And the other two babbling on about the bible and Adam and Eve are not nearly as atrocious as OBL, clearly you must see that. Or is someone having a religious based opinion, different than your own, really that scary and atrocious to you as mass murder?

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Sunday, October 8, 2006 6:48 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Sassalicious:

I don't think Osama tries to "spread his theocracy" with mass murder. He wasn't trying to convert the non-Muslim U.S. population to Islam when his organization flew planes into the towers. All 3 are modern religious zealots, using their interpretation of a holy book NOT written by any god to justify hatred, violence, oppression, and ignorance.

They are all three equally atrocious.




i agree wtih this... in the same way the christian/occultists who hail Bush as Jesus' incarnate are not interested in truly liberating Islam by the truth of Jesus' and his message of peaceful submission and cooperation.. but rather they have been decieved into supporting a formulated (occult) pentagon agenda which caused 9/11, and is initiating(on hehalf of the central banks) the final phases of the global government agenda; with the intent to sabotage the world religions.

the moral being that the theistic fiaths are inherintly susceptable to diception, and must be vigilante against herecies which deny doctrines that are fundemental to peace

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Sunday, October 8, 2006 8:14 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Sassalicious:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Yes... Jerry and Pat are as bad as they come

I mean two are acceptable religious lunatics who are to be given a voice and allowed to try and spread theocracies. The other is to be bombed.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.



I mean one tries to spread his theocracy with mass murder and the other two try with ridiculous bible blabber. Who is worse? Dunno? You can't be equating these. Or can you be? I wouldn't put it past you to trivialize mass murder just because you hate religion.



I don't think Osama tries to "spread his theocracy" with mass murder. He wasn't trying to convert the non-Muslim U.S. population to Islam when his organization flew planes into the towers. All 3 are modern religious zealots, using their interpretation of a holy book NOT written by any god to justify hatred, violence, oppression, and ignorance.

They are all three equally atrocious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever



Sass, he has told America to convert or die after 9-11. That sounds like spreading his religion by the threat of murder to me. And the other two babbling on about the bible and Adam and Eve are not nearly as atrocious as OBL, clearly you must see that. Or is someone having a religious based opinion, different than your own, really that scary and atrocious to you as mass murder?



Where did he say that because I never heard anything about it. I don't care if someone has a religiously based opinion different than mine. I tend to believe that ANY organized religion is just a tool of some sort and that majority of influential religious people would rather control people than perpetuate the "true message". There is a difference between spirituality and religion. What I do care about is when someone's religiously based motives are being used to direct policy that affects people who don't share their same views. Whether or not mass murder is involved is irrelevant to ME. I find Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell equally threatening as Osama bin Laden, but perhaps in different ways. In short form, they could be considered a form of domestic terrorism.

The "War on Terrorism" is theoretically a response to 9/11. It's since become a "War on everyone possibly threatening to the U.S. and we're going to attack them under the premise of WMDs . . . wait, s*** they don't have any . . . uh let's make it humanitarian, yeah". However, in my opinion, the reality is the Red Scare all over again. If one reads a variety of books about the Vietnam War (particurly post-French war, just prior to U.S. one), one can substitute "terrorist" for "communist" and "Middle East" for "IndoChina" and read the same things we read and hear now. Same basic drama, different time period.

Furthermore, would Osama/Middle Eastern terrorists have as much against the U.S. if we didn't continually support Zionism? It seems that we have a bad habit of arming and training our own future enemies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Monday, October 9, 2006 6:18 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Sassalicious:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Sassalicious:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Yes... Jerry and Pat are as bad as they come

I mean two are acceptable religious lunatics who are to be given a voice and allowed to try and spread theocracies. The other is to be bombed.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
]

I mean one tries to spread his theocracy with mass murder and the other two try with ridiculous bible blabber. Who is worse? Dunno? You can't be equating these. Or can you be? I wouldn't put it past you to trivialize mass murder just because you hate religion.



I don't think Osama tries to "spread his theocracy" with mass murder. He wasn't trying to convert the non-Muslim U.S. population to Islam when his organization flew planes into the towers. All 3 are modern religious zealots, using their interpretation of a holy book NOT written by any god to justify hatred, violence, oppression, and ignorance.

They are all three equally atrocious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever



Sass, he has told America to convert or die after 9-11. That sounds like spreading his religion by the threat of murder to me. And the other two babbling on about the bible and Adam and Eve are not nearly as atrocious as OBL, clearly you must see that. Or is someone having a religious based opinion, different than your own, really that scary and atrocious to you as mass murder?



Where did he say that because I never heard anything about it. I don't care if someone has a religiously based opinion different than mine. I tend to believe that ANY organized religion is just a tool of some sort and that majority of influential religious people would rather control people than perpetuate the "true message". There is a difference between spirituality and religion. What I do care about is when someone's religiously based motives are being used to direct policy that affects people who don't share their same views. Whether or not mass murder is involved is irrelevant to ME. I find Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell equally threatening as Osama bin Laden, but perhaps in different ways. In short form, they could be considered a form of domestic terrorism.

The "War on Terrorism" is theoretically a response to 9/11. It's since become a "War on everyone possibly threatening to the U.S. and we're going to attack them under the premise of WMDs . . . wait, s*** they don't have any . . . uh let's make it humanitarian, yeah". However, in my opinion, the reality is the Red Scare all over again. If one reads a variety of books about the Vietnam War (particurly post-French war, just prior to U.S. one), one can substitute "terrorist" for "communist" and "Middle East" for "IndoChina" and read the same things we read and hear now. Same basic drama, different time period.

Furthermore, would Osama/Middle Eastern terrorists have as much against the U.S. if we didn't continually support Zionism? It seems that we have a bad habit of arming and training our own future enemies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever




Just google it.. there are many...here is the top one
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/09/02/zawahiri.tape/index.html
I think your idea that Robertson or any other religious kooks being domestic terrorists is a little unfounded. Osama on the other hand is a terrorist and a mass murderer. How can they be equally threatening in "different ways"? Don't worry so much about Bush's religiously based motives...he will be gone soon enough. We will have a new prez and they will still hate us. Didn't they bomb the Trade centers under Clinton? The USS Cole? Foreign embassies? Go figure......

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Monday, October 9, 2006 9:24 AM

SASSALICIOUS


We supported the policy of Zionism under all of the Presidents you mention. I never once said that we were bombed because of President Bush. I suggested that it's our current Middle Eastern foreign policy that pissed the people off and started this.

Also, I'm not justifying murdering innocent people, I'm just saying maybe we should take a step back and see what role our own actions have played in it.

Terrorism has always existed, it will continue to exist, and there isn't a lot we can do about it.

Falwell and Robertson haven't propagated as much violence, but they have spread just as much hate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Monday, October 9, 2006 9:27 AM

SASSALICIOUS


We supported the policy of Zionism under all of the Presidents you mention. I never once said that we were bombed because of President Bush. I suggested that it's our current Middle Eastern foreign policy that pissed the people off and started this.

Also, I'm not justifying murdering innocent people, I'm just saying maybe we should take a step back and see what role our own actions have played in it.

Terrorism has always existed, it will continue to exist, and there isn't a lot we can do about it.

Falwell and Robertson haven't propagated as much violence, but they have spread just as much hate.

EDIT: I just looked at the link and it doesn't mention 9/11, just mentions possible future attacks. So he hasn't actually "tried to spread Islam by murder" just yet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Monday, October 9, 2006 10:20 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
im not excusing any christian who blatantly sins..but why make the distinction of "christian" with the negative connotation.. when all human beings have been murderes and lyers throughout history? i think thats a double standard, because no one ever has anything to say about the athiest population, myself included.. because i have no factual bases to make such assumptions; but christians and other religions are fair game; i think thats hypocritical

If Christianity or any other religion is being used to bring about violence yes. Do you think someone would just randomly bomb an abortion clinic? Why can't we say that is a Christian motivated attack if it is motivated by someone wanting to enforce the Bibles morality on someone else?

The thing about organised religion is not that it creates the human desire to commit acts of violence, it's that it legitimises it, gives it scope, even makes it a good thing. It's that it can be used as a tool by the unscrupulous to push otherwise normal people to commit terrible acts because those terrible acts are a good thing as legitimised in religious work X.

It's the nature of faith that makes it pretty much the only thing that can be used in this manner. And its the nature of organised religion and how it directs faith that makes it such a glorious tool.

But if you think that it's some shadowy NWO Occult conspiracy behind the perversion of Christianity or any other religion you're sadly mistaken. A good deal of violence is dished out based on what is said in the Bible. If the Bible and other religious works could have their contradictions (such as "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" and "Turn the other cheek") removed, in the previous example taking away the eye for an eye bit, we'd see a lot less violence in the world. Of course these contradictions can not be cleared up, these holy books can not be reworked, and these holy religions can not be questioned, even in the light of a changing world.

Therein lies the problem. The Bible and other religious works represent the morals of a world where saying Yahweh was a crime punishable by an excruciating death. These books teach these morals by virtue of that being what they were written to do. That was fine back then, but we no longer live in that world and these books have not and can not change to reflect that. These morals are unacceptable now, but they are still a core part of these ancient works, but by the nature of faith and organised religion this discrepancy can not be removed. Therein lies a problem.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 1:27 PM

MINK


Dang, not one person got more than 13. I got 11 because I decided they were just being cute and all the answers were Jerry/Pat.

I don't care for any of them but I currently regard the Muslims as the greater threat. Not because of direct aggression (unless they get nukes - that changes everything), but because of the gradual spread of population, culture, religion combined with the threat of violence, that could eventually take control of Western democracies and replace them with total doo-doo (read: Sharia).

Not that Jerry/Pat are going anywhere much different, they just don't seem to have as much momentum. And they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, as violent.

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 1:27 PM

MINK


Dang, not one person got more than 13. I got 11 because I decided they were just being cute and all the answers were Jerry/Pat.

I don't care for any of them but I currently regard the Muslims as the greater threat. Not because of direct aggression (unless they get nukes - that changes everything), but because of the gradual spread of population, culture, religion combined with the threat of violence, that could eventually take control of Western democracies and replace them with total doo-doo (read: Sharia).

Not that Jerry/Pat are going anywhere much different, they just don't seem to have as much momentum. And they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, as violent.

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 4:30 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
If Christianity or any other religion is being used to bring about violence yes. Do you think someone would just randomly bomb an abortion clinic? Why can't we say that is a Christian motivated attack if it is motivated by someone wanting to enforce the Bibles morality on someone else?



i acknowledge your point. my thing is.. i could not justify bombing an abortion clinic, or anything even remotely closed to an act of agression..since that behavior is inherintly antithetical to my personal knowledge of the message of scripture, being unconditional love; which is why i question such an individuals true motivation, since it is clearly not christ-like. it should be more correctly likened to the pharisees, who were exposed time and again as hyprocrites, who only honored God with their lips, and not their actions, ultimately hurting their people while leading them astray as 'false teachers'.

Jesus says "if you hold to my teaching, you are REALLY MY DISCIPLES. then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. i know you are Israels descendants. yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. if you were Abrahams children, then you would do the things Abraham did. as it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that i heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. YOU are doing the things YOUR OWN FATHER DOES(satan). you belong to your father(the prince of this world), the devil, and you want to carry out your fathers desire. he was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. he who belongs to God hears what God says. the reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."John 8

the NT is full of such quotes.. which is why Jesus emphasises, strictly, that only those who do his will, of peace, are his true disciples..otherwise anyone could claim to be christian

Quote:

The thing about organised religion is not that it creates the human desire to commit acts of violence, it's that it legitimises it, gives it scope, even makes it a good thing.


Jesus says "do not judge, and you will not be judged. do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. forgive, and you will be forgiven." surely, atleast you recognize that people who do otherwise are not actually following Jesus' example?

i dont believe there are any examples in the NT that legitimise or excuse or condone violent or negligent behavior, but if you know of some then please show me the verses so that i may study them. the OT is something else entirely..but is also a great deal more complicated; its important to keep in mind that Israel also murdered all of their prophets from God, constantly defied his word and ultimately worshipped idols and 'angels'. the Jews may have claimed to be acting on Gods behalf, but they simply could not recognize God from the fallen angelic, luciferian occult perversions; which culminated in the murder of Jesus and his disciples, by the Jewish leaders of the time. this was clearly not what God had intended, and i would argue that the Abrahamic faiths are still no different today

Quote:

It's that it can be used as a tool by the unscrupulous to push otherwise normal people to commit terrible acts because those terrible acts are a good thing as legitimised in religious work X.


ok, but how are they more susceptible then anyone else, when they are supposed to be following Jesus' commands? i would argue that to legitimize terror would be to completely deny the message of Jesus. Jesus says 'if you love me, you will obey what i command' then he says 'the most important (command) is this: Love the Lord your GOd with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. the second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. there is no commandment greater then these".. because as he later says "love does NO harm, and is the fullfillment of the Law". we are told to resist the our fallen, instinctual nature, "for from within, out of mens hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deciet, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. all these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean'"


Quote:

It's the nature of faith that makes it pretty much the only thing that can be used in this manner. And its the nature of organised religion and how it directs faith that makes it such a glorious tool.


i cant argue with that.. but lets break this down; what are the motives in such an instance? whether it be conquest, or genocide or money, they are all selfish acts which Jesus says to resist. i dont know why someone would claim to be a follower of Jesus, yet disregard his most important commandments.. why is that person a christian then? this is why it is important to expose occult perversions, because scripturally there is no bases for such behavior.


Quote:

But if you think that it's some shadowy NWO Occult conspiracy behind the perversion of Christianity or any other religion you're sadly mistaken.


well what do you think, that christians are seeking to establish a global theocracy? according to scripture, such a global government would be the occult empire of ANTIchrist, which we want nothing to do with and are fighting agianst!

Bush isnt a christian with a christian fascist agenda.. hes a skull and bones occultist with a fascist global government agenda... just as the bible predicts. this is why you need to accept that these societies like skull and bones, the illuminati and freemasonry exist, and weild enormous control over the world. as ive said before, the symbolism they utilize is clearly satanic, not christian. Manly Hall, one of the most esteemed Masons ever, says so himself

“European mysticism was not dead at the time the United States of America was founded. The hand of the mysteries controlled in the establishment of the new government for the signature of the mysteries may still be seen on the Great Seal of the United states of America. Careful analysis of the seal discloses a mass of occult and masonic symbols chief among them, the so-called American Eagle. ... the American eagle upon the Great Seal is but a conventionalised phoenix ...”

“Not only were many of the founders of the United States government Masons, but they received aid from a secret and august body existing in Europe which helped them to establish this country for A PECULIAR AND PARTICULAR PURPOSE known only to the intiated few.”

this purpose was a "new atlantis" an occult empire, or, as i believe "mystery Babylon". this is very real, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not

Quote:

A good deal of violence is dished out based on what is said in the Bible. If the Bible and other religious works could have their contradictions (such as "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" and "Turn the other cheek") removed, in the previous example taking away the eye for an eye bit, we'd see a lot less violence in the world.


Jesus says "you have heard that it was said, 'eye for eye and tooth for tooth. but i tell you, do not resist an evil person. if someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." it is in Deuteronomy where this phrase is first mentioned, and it is clearly refferring to "witnesses" and legal matters, which in a court of Law the government is responsible to be the just arbitar. Jesus clarified that 'only God is fit to judge', that as far as we are concerned to love our neighbor as ourselves

Quote:

Of course these contradictions can not be cleared up, these holy books can not be reworked, and these holy religions can not be questioned, even in the light of a changing world.


now how is this not hypocritical? i constanly hear 'im fine as long as you dont force your belief on me', but if we dont accept your view, we are ignorant and stubbornly attached to antiquated concepts.

someone who does not believe in God ultimately is the God of his own conscience.. so why is my God any more evil then yours.. arent all human beings imperfect? then why is an athiests worldview never scrutinized when they commit a crime? we have a God considered perfect, a likeness which we strive for.. yet only we are fit to stereotype, why is that?

i resent the implications that we are narrow minded aswell.. since atleast christianity takes into consideration the 'god' myths of the greeks, sumerians, babylonians and others.. something modern science discounts as fantasy, despite the universality of the myths and astounding techniques employed by the ancients. and we have an explanation for the existence of secret societies and the massive amounts of control that they weild behind the scenes; the rest of modern mainstream historians deny their relevence, despite the FED and CFR were founded my such societies


Quote:

Therein lies the problem. The Bible and other religious works represent the morals of a world where saying Yahweh was a crime punishable by an excruciating death. These books teach these morals by virtue of that being what they were written to do. That was fine back then, but we no longer live in that world and these books have not and can not change to reflect that.


the contradictions, that people point to, occur between the OT and NT; and rightly so, because their is a difference between Judiasm, and christianity... Jesus' teachings were the fullfillment of the law, it was another phase of Gods message meant to clarify diceptions which had arose through the leaders and pharisees. JEsus came to establish a new covenant, a spirituality based on his direct word... which the early Jews did not have. like i mentioned earlier, the Jews murdered every one of their prophets from GOd, including the son of God, and developed an institutional herecy that threatened to obscure and pervert Gods truths; we do not base our faith on the rituals and traditions of the babylonian heretical jews, which are documented in the bible, but on the messages of JESUS CHRIST

Quote:

These morals are unacceptable now, but they are still a core part of these ancient works, but by the nature of faith and organised religion this discrepancy can not be removed. Therein lies a problem.


what is the alternative, which in your mind would 'solve the problem'? if globally, we all adopted Evolution as a worldview, then instead of a theocracy you would get a scientific dictatorship, because you are not solving the issues of mans sinful nature, but abolishing tools neccessary to restrain it. politicians and world leaders would just seize on these new concepts to control people, because athiests are not different then believers in this respect










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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:29 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
i acknowledge your point. my thing is.. i could not justify bombing an abortion clinic, or anything even remotely closed to an act of agression..since that behavior is inherintly antithetical to my personal knowledge of the message of scripture, being unconditional love; which is why i question such an individuals true motivation, since it is clearly not christ-like. it should be more correctly likened to the pharisees, who were exposed time and again as hyprocrites, who only honored God with their lips, and not their actions, ultimately hurting their people while leading them astray as 'false teachers'.

It's based on their reading of Christianity, they think their doing the Christian gods work, it's motivated by Christianity. If there was no basis for people to do these things from within Christianity Christians wouldn't do it in the name of Christianity.
Quote:

Jesus says "if you hold to my teaching, you are REALLY MY DISCIPLES...

the NT is full of such quotes.. which is why Jesus emphasises, strictly, that only those who do his will, of peace, are his true disciples..otherwise anyone could claim to be christian

Yeah Jesus says said a lot of things, some of them kept out of the Bible because they preached against a Christian church. Incidentally guess whose religion has the largest church?

Quote:

Jesus says "do not judge, and you will not be judged. do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. forgive, and you will be forgiven." surely, atleast you recognize that people who do otherwise are not actually following Jesus' example?
The bible is chock full of legitimised violence, people are committing crimes in the name of Christ and the Christian God. You yourself have said people are incapable of following Jesus, so by your own definitions there are no Christians.
Quote:

i dont believe there are any examples in the NT that legitimise or excuse or condone violent or negligent behavior, but if you know of some then please show me the verses so that i may study them.
A few examples:
Matthew
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mark
7:9-10
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Jesus criticising Jews for not fulfilling Old Testament law by not killing disobedient children.
Luke
12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Jesus telling us we should fear God because God can kill us and send us to hell on a whim.
John
3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemened: but he that believeth not is condemened already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God
Jesus tells us that as long as you believe in him you're ok. So you could be the nastiest bastard in the world and still go to heaven, as long as you believe Jesus was the Son of God, adversely you could be the greatest saint, but if you're not a Christian it's straight to hell.
3:36
He the Believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the son shall see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
God hates non-believers. If God hates non-believers god's hardly going to have much of a problem if a believer were to drop a bomb through a non-believers letter box.
15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Burn non-believers.
Acts
3:23
And it shall come to pass, that ever soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
More killing of non-believers.
5:1-10
Peter and God scare Ananias and Sapphira to death for not handing over all the money from sale of their land. Would that constitute a divine mugging?
Romans
1:31-32
Without understanding, covernantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knows the judgement of God, that they commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") are worthy of death. So out of curiosity if a Christian were to kill a homosexual fulfilling this verse could we not say that it was a Christian murder?
Quote:

the OT is something else entirely..but is also a great deal more complicated;
Yes it is, it is also canonical and part of the Christian religion. Merely saying the Jews did it doesn't change that.
Quote:

ok, but how are they more susceptible then anyone else, when they are supposed to be following Jesus' commands?
Because that's the nature of faith in organised religion, to a degree your expected to suspend you're own morals and accept that it's good if they say it is good. This is how otherwise normal people have managed to commit terrible acts of violence in the past, because the leader of their religion told them it was the right thing to do. The other powerful use of religion is its dehumanisation of non-believers, they aren't people, they're heretics and infidels. And of course killing an infidel isn't like killing a person, is it.
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i cant argue with that.. but lets break this down; what are the motives in such an instance? whether it be conquest, or genocide or money, they are all selfish acts which Jesus says to resist. i dont know why someone would claim to be a follower of Jesus, yet disregard his most important commandments.. why is that person a christian then? this is why it is important to expose occult perversions, because scripturally there is no bases for such behavior.
People who do these things are often believers, in fact most of them would say your the one whose not a real believer, just like the Muslim fanatics that blow themselves up for the glory of Allah. Whose right? I'd prefer to think it's you, but that doesn't mean that those other people aren't believers nor that they are basing they're ideas of Christianity on what is in Christianity.
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well what do you think, that christians are seeking to establish a global theocracy? according to scripture, such a global government would be the occult empire of ANTIchrist, which we want nothing to do with and are fighting agianst!
Well some are yes. Of course they think they're doing Gods work, a theocracy would enforce Gods law, glorifying God on Earth and getting rid of all those unsightly sinners.
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“European mysticism was not dead at the time the United States of America was founded. The hand of the mysteries controlled in the establishment of the new government for the signature of the mysteries may still be seen on the Great Seal of the United states of America. Careful analysis of the seal discloses a mass of occult and masonic symbols chief among them, the so-called American Eagle. ... the American eagle upon the Great Seal is but a conventionalised phoenix ...”
So what is Russia's bear or Britain's Lion? I'm still unclear as to why a shadowy super secret new world order occultist organisation would plant its symbols all over the place is beyond me. If they're planning to hide in plain site why not just publish all their plans in the Newspaper under other news?
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now how is this not hypocritical? i constanly hear 'im fine as long as you dont force your belief on me', but if we dont accept your view, we are ignorant and stubbornly attached to antiquated concepts.
Do me a favour. You yourself say that the OT doesn't resemble Christian ideals, that's what the NT is for. I suggest that maybe the contradictions that don't resemble what Christianity is really about should be removed in order to stop people throwing bombs into abortion clinics for the glory of God and that's somehow me forcing my beliefs down your throat? That's dishonest.
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someone who does not believe in God ultimately is the God of his own conscience.. so why is my God any more evil then yours.. arent all human beings imperfect?
My conscience never killed the first born of Egypt.
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then why is an athiests worldview never scrutinized when they commit a crime?
Because it is. Especially by Christians who denounce all non-believers as immoral and tell us that a Christian would never do such a thing (because that Christian that did it last week was really an occultist).
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we have a God considered perfect, a likeness which we strive for.. yet only we are fit to stereotype, why is that?
Drop the "aren't we Christians so hard done by and victimised" bit. It really doesn't wash.
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i resent the implications that we are narrow minded aswell.. since atleast christianity takes into consideration the 'god' myths of the greeks, sumerians, babylonians and others.. something modern science discounts as fantasy, despite the universality of the myths and astounding techniques employed by the ancients.
So latching on to ancient stories to further the aims of religious leaders and gain followers is open minded, while being prepared to accept something once evidence is provided is close minded? You have a very strange definition of open minded.

It's hardly surprising Christianity takes into consideration these other 'god' myths. It's how Christianity has become the most widely practised religion in the world. Christmas for instance has very little to do with the Birth of Christ. Most historians agree that Christ was probably born in September. The date of the 25th of December coincides with the Babylonian feast of the Son of Isis (son of a God...), a celebration marked by racous partying Gluttony (big meals, maybe they had Turkey?) and gift giving.

Yule is a Northern European celebration of the Winter Solstice, symbolic of the Pagan Sun god Mithras, incidentally Yule means wheel, which was a pagan symbol for the sun. Yule logs were burned in honour of the Sun and it was customary to kiss under Mistletoe as a fertility ritual.

The tree is also pagan, taken into peoples homes as a reminder that their crops would soon grow again. Even carollers trace their routes back to the Mummers, a Roman tradition of singing and dancing to entertain the neighbours.

A lot of Christianity's 'acceptance' of other religions is more to do with making the transition from Pagan to Christian easier.
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the contradictions, that people point to, occur between the OT and NT; and rightly so, because their is a difference between Judiasm, and christianity... Jesus' teachings were the fullfillment of the law, it was another phase of Gods message meant to clarify diceptions which had arose through the leaders and pharisees. JEsus came to establish a new covenant, a spirituality based on his direct word... which the early Jews did not have. like i mentioned earlier, the Jews murdered every one of their prophets from GOd, including the son of God, and developed an institutional herecy that threatened to obscure and pervert Gods truths; we do not base our faith on the rituals and traditions of the babylonian heretical jews, which are documented in the bible, but on the messages of JESUS CHRIST
We've already ascertained that it's hypocritical of me to suggest removing the OT and other contradictions of Christianity, so you don't get to disown the OT when it's teachings are inconvenient. It's part of Christianity.
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what is the alternative, which in your mind would 'solve the problem'? if globally, we all adopted Evolution as a worldview, then instead of a theocracy you would get a scientific dictatorship,
The Nations that have accepted Evolution are generally freer and less dictatorial than those that haven't. It's funny how we've had violent oppressive theocracies but no violent oppressive scientific dictatorships. Scientific dictatorships are BS, they're something made up by people who saw scientific understanding eroding their grip on power and wanted to stop.

Thankfully they failed.
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because you are not solving the issues of mans sinful nature, but abolishing tools neccessary to restrain it.
Because religion has done a real good job of that.
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politicians and world leaders would just seize on these new concepts to control people, because athiests are not different then believers in this respect
These new concepts that are around right now and aren't being used like that? Are those the concepts we're talking about?

You're equating Science with Religion as if they are fundamentally the same thing. Science is not an alternate Religion to Christianity, it's not a religion at all.



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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 8:28 PM

ANTIMASON


ok... youre right Citizen, the bible is evil, and christians, jews, and muslims are evil

its funny... when youre a theist, any action is assumed inseperable from your worldview; every consequence being the result of a premeditated religious cause

but if your an athiest, there are absolutely no guidelines... infact, you can do anything, and your worldview will never be scrutinized; A never leads to B

if your a theist.. its religiously motivated

if your an athiest.. it is an individual mistake

sure its a double standard... but equality is only relative right? like truth?

basically murder, greed, envy, adultery, lying, stealing... these are exclusively theistic traits, performed by religious people

no athiest would ever committ such "sins", nor has an athiest ever committed such "sins", since its clear that only religion(not the lack thereof) causes destruction

athiesm is benevolent; atheists are Gods, as they are perfect human beings who share none of the same character faults as the lesser, subhuman theists..

if an athiest commits a crime.. he was probably conditioned by ' a church'

am i right?

i mean... a religious persons worldview leads us to murder and crime

meanwhile your worldview, being whatever you wish, is infallable, inherintly perfect and void of all human imperfections

i just find it ironic:

you constatly say that its our worldview that causes inequality and divisiness.... but meanwhile you look down upon us, condescendingly, only to suceed in purpetuating your own set of indifference and intolerance

your world view is no better then ours, since you too are imperfect,and you too perpetuate your imperfections

what solution do you have to change human nature? your singling yourself out as more intelligent, more ethical as atheists, is a self righteous act of judgement; something the bible actually condemns

all human beings CITIZEN have these sinful desires, no one is perfect, so who are you to hold yourself as more righteous then we?

what do you contribute but un-needed degredation and division?

Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler.. i suppose they were theists aswell? afterall, only religiously motivated people are criminals right?

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'Both Marx and Hitler have their philosophical roots in Hegel' (Sutton, 118). It is here that one arrives at the Hegelian nexus where Darwin, Marx, and Hitler intersect. Recall that Nietzsche-ism, Darwinism and Marxism were all mentioned together in the Protocols of the Wise Men of Sion. This was no accident. Nazism (a variant of fascism) sprung from Nietzsche-ism (Carr, XIV). Communism sprung from Marxism. Both were based upon Hegelian principles. Moreover, both were 'scientific dictatorships' legitimized by the 'science' of Darwinism."

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“However, Fascism or Marxism, right wing or left - all these are only ideological roads that lead to Aldous Huxley's brave new world [i.e. scientific dictatorship], while the foundation for each of these roads is Darwin's theory of evolution. Fascism is aligned with biological determinism and tends to emphasize the unequal struggle by which those inherently fittest shall rule. Marxism stresses social progress by stages of revolution, while at the same time it paradoxically emphasizes peace and equality. There should be no illusions; Hitler borrowed from Marx. The result is that both Fascism and Marxism finish at the same destiny - totalitarian rule by the elite.” (Taylor, 411)
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The interest of both Hitler and Marx in Darwinian evolution is a matter of history. While he was living in London, Karl Marx attended lectures on evolutionary theory delivered by T.H. Huxley. Recognizing the odd synchronicity between the communist concept of class war and the Darwinian principle of natural selection, Marx sent Darwin a copy of Das Kapital in 1873. Enamored of evolution, Marx asked Darwin the permission to dedicate his next volume to him six year later. Troubled by the fact that it would upset certain members of his family to have the name of Darwin associated with an atheistic polemic, Charles politely declined the offer (Taylor, 381).

Numerous authors have established firm connections between Darwinism and Hitler's Nazism. Darwinian Arthur Keith documented the strong links between Hitler's racialist goals and the doctrine of evolution (Taylor, 409). In fact, in Evolution and Ethics, Keith candidly stated: 'The German Fuhrer as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution' (Keith, Evolution and Ethics, 230).

In an analysis of Mein Kampf, contemporary author Werner Maser reveals that Darwin was the crucible for Hitler's 'notions of biology, worship, force, and struggle, and of his rejection of moral causality in history.' Finally, researcher Alfred Kelly provides a comprehensive history of Darwinism's popularization in Germany (Taylor, 409).

Returning to the Hegelian nexus that binds Darwinism, Marxism, and Nazism, both the fascist and communist 'scientific dictatorships' represented tangible enactments of the dialectical framework resident in evolutionary theory. Marx was greatly influenced by Hegel (Taylor, 381). The concept of class struggle, which paralleled Darwinian natural selection, resulted from Marx's redirection of the Hegelian dialectic towards the socioeconomic realm. The proletariat (thesis) comes into conflict with the bourgeois (antithesis), resulting in a classless Utopia (synthesis). Marx, however, rejected the concept of a world spirit and relocated the revolution's causal source within the proletariat itself.

The same Hegelian framework was resident within Hitler's genocidal Final Solution. The German people (thesis) came into conflict with the Jew (antithesis) in hopes of creating the Aryan (synthesis). In both the case of communism and Nazism, the results were enormous bloodbaths. This is the natural consequence of Darwinian thinking and the legacy of the 'scientific dictatorship.'

In applying the ideas of Darwin, both communists and fascists have murdered millions. Both of these groups find their origins in the elite (the Illuminati), who are still pursuing the same objectives today. According to the Darwinian mantra of 'survival of the fittest,' victory will demand bloodshed. Humanity may stand to inherit the 'scientific dictatorship's' bloody legacy in the very near future.
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http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Ascendancy2.htm

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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:54 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
ok... youre right Citizen, the bible is evil, and christians, jews, and muslims are evil

Don't try and feign insult in order to win the argument by default. It doesn't wash. I never said that, you asked me to back up my claims that those who perpetrate violence in the name of religion find the justification and are also sometimes driven to it by religion, I did so. Don't throw a temper tantrum because I supplied evidence of the call for violence in the NT which you've decided is the most perfect example of altruism. You asked me to provide that for crying out loud.
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its funny... when youre a theist, any action is assumed inseperable from your worldview; every consequence being the result of a premeditated religious cause
You're continuing your logical fallacy here, namely Appeal to emotion. I didn't say this, I said if a Christian commits a crime it doesn't make it a Christian crime, unless Christianity was the motivating factor.

I'm sure if an Atheist blew up a Christian Church because "there is no god" you'd be the first to denounce all Atheist and point out that it was an "Atheism motivated crime".

Adversely if a Christian blows up an abortion clinic because "God said they are evil" then that's just the influence of the occult or the actions of one lone "sinner".
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sure its a double standard... but equality is only relative right? like truth?
This sums up you're thoughts rather well.
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but if your an athiest, there are absolutely no guidelines... infact, you can do anything, and your worldview will never be scrutinized; A never leads to B

if your a theist.. its religiously motivated

if your an athiest.. it is an individual mistake

Maybe you can clear something up for me. Why is it that Christians and others have such a hard time getting the simple concept that not everything is a religion? You equate Atheism to Christianity as if they are both doctrines of faith, and although Atheism could be said to be a belief it is not an organised religion or even organised by any stretch of the imagination.

You don't even read what I write do you? I stated quite clearly that a crime by a theist is only religiously motivated if its motivated by religion. How can you say the bombing of an abortion clinic because "God says they're evil" isn't motivated by Christianity? How can you say that someone brought up their entire life with the Christian doctrines that homosexuals deserve to die (see above) who then goes out and kills homosexuals isn't motivated by Christianity? You can't, but you do, that's your hypocrisy.

Strangely enough it would be rather difficult to find a crime or circumstance where Atheism was a driving motivator. What's Christianity? It's a collection of hundreds of beliefs and doctrines, ranging from "their is a God" to "God has a son" and including things like "love thy neighbour" and "Kill Homosexuals". What's Atheism? It's the label used to group Atheist, who have one and only one uniting belief, that "there is no God".

So really there is only one crime that if perpetrated by an Atheist can be said to be motivated by Atheism, a crime committed because "there is no God".
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basically murder, greed, envy, adultery, lying, stealing... these are exclusively theistic traits, performed by religious people
Well if that is your position good luck with that, it certainly isn't mine.

You position appears to be that Christianity is innocent, no matter what, someone kills a homosexual based on entries in the Bible, well you know what brother it has nothing to do with the Bible. That's crap.

In order to win the debate you attempt to paint my position as the polar opposite, namely all crimes committed by Christians are Christian motivated, this is crap two fold, firstly because that position is as untrue as your own, and secondly because it isn't my position.
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no athiest would ever committ such "sins", nor has an athiest ever committed such "sins", since its clear that only religion(not the lack thereof) causes destruction
You seem to be throwing a bit of a tantrum here, shall I step back and let you get it out of your system?
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athiesm is benevolent; atheists are Gods, as they are perfect human beings who share none of the same character faults as the lesser, subhuman theists..
My my you play the hard done by well don't you.
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if an athiest commits a crime.. he was probably conditioned by ' a church'
I'm just going to stop bothering to set you right on what I'm saying because you obviously are neither interested nor listening.
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am i right?
No, are you ever right when you try to tell me what I'm saying?
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i mean... a religious persons worldview leads us to murder and crime

meanwhile your worldview, being whatever you wish, is infallable, inherintly perfect and void of all human imperfections

This is that whole thing that if you repeat a lie loud and long enough it becomes the truth, right?

Lets stop talking about my world-view shall we, you don't know what that is. I mean you can't even seem to workout what my position on this subject is when I've flat out told you what it is.

The great distinction between the world-view of a Christian is that their world-view is largely fostered by Christianity, whereas the world-view of an Atheist is largely personal. Atheism isn't a doctrine of faith, that's the simple concept you seem woefully unable to grasp.
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you constatly say that its our worldview that causes inequality and divisiness.... but meanwhile you look down upon us, condescendingly, only to suceed in purpetuating your own set of indifference and intolerance
Yes everyone I don't tolerate religious fanatics killing in the name of Christianity, Islam or any other religion. What a nasty intolerant evil person I am.
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your world view is no better then ours, since you too are imperfect,and you too perpetuate your imperfections
I never said it was, but you'll never find anyone using my world view to justify holy wars or murder either.
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what solution do you have to change human nature? your singling yourself out as more intelligent, more ethical as atheists,
No I believe that is your great plan.
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is a self righteous act of judgement; something the bible actually condemns
Condemns it? Mate you really need to read that book.
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all human beings CITIZEN have these sinful desires, no one is perfect, so who are you to hold yourself as more righteous then we?
I never said they didn't, I never said they were, and I don't. You're own biases are showing through.
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what do you contribute but un-needed degredation and division?
Which one of us was this aimed at? Me or the Me in your head that gives you all of these easily argued against positions? I could quite easily ask you the same thing.
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Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler.. i suppose they were theists aswell? afterall, only religiously motivated people are criminals right?
No, but I'm sure you're about to try and prove how they were all part of "evil science".

Oh wait you do.

Nazism wasn't a scientific dictatorship, I'll listen when you get a source a little bit more credible than an anti science rant from the "jumped up on prozac crazy conspiracy website". In fact, and here's some interesting facts the author of your rant missed out, Nazism had a huge Christian following, the Nazis said they were going to build a Christian empire and eradicate the Jewish scourge.

A holy war to set up a holy empire, that sounds very scientific.

And as for communism, well that shares more ideals and doctrines with religion than Science. Even going as far to ban 'other' religions.

Again you make a fundamental flaw assuming Science is a religion. Science doesn't tell us how to live our lives and it is not a doctrine of faith.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:43 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Don't try and feign insult in order to win the argument by default. It doesn't wash. I never said that, you asked me to back up my claims that those who perpetrate violence in the name of religion find the justification and are also sometimes driven to it by religion, I did so.



then why havent i interpreted the bible that way? maybe the bible is dangerous, to people who do not take the time to gather the collective message of scripture; otherwise sure..you can find your own personal justification if you interpret it falsely.. but that doesnt make them right. just like i could find justification to murder by the influence of violence on TV, was it TV that made me do it? its hypocritical that theists are influenced to act immoraly because of our doctrines, but athiests are not influenced by anything at all in their worldview(or lack thereof)


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Don't throw a temper tantrum because I supplied evidence of the call for violence in the NT which you've decided is the most perfect example of altruism. You asked me to provide that for crying out loud.


yah, and you took those quotes horribly out of context. when JEsus talks about a 'sword', you wouldnt know he is talking about GODS WORD unless youve actually referenced the whole of scripture. you wouldnt understand that GOD acts just by an unseen hand, and doesnt literally come down and smite innocent people like you claim. and you wouldnt understand that JESUS, GOD manifest, said that only GOD MAY PERSECUTE< AND GOD IS FIT TO JUDGE (which means NO HUMAN MAY TAKE JUDGEMENT INTO HIS OWN HANDS).

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You're continuing your logical fallacy here, namely Appeal to emotion. I didn't say this, I said if a Christian commits a crime it doesn't make it a Christian crime, unless Christianity was the motivating factor.


OK, so admit one instance in history where an athiest commits an athiestic influenced murder? you cant! because we can only speculate what the cause and effect of an individuals actions are, and athiests have no set code of ethics by which to measure their actions; therefore

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I'm sure if an Atheist blew up a Christian Church because "there is no god" you'd be the first to denounce all Atheist and point out that it was an "Atheism motivated crime".


actually i wouldnt, i would claim that every individual is responsible for his own actions.. just as the catholic preists being exposed as pedophiles are acting by their own consceince, and not inspired by scripture.

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Adversely if a Christian blows up an abortion clinic because "God said they are evil" then that's just the influence of the occult or the actions of one lone "sinner".


look are you denying that to abort a living fetus is the equivelant of murder? this is a theological question..that being: is all life significant? to christians abortion is murder.. murder is WRONG; and likewise, it would be a sin to MURDER an ABORTIONIST! it is not for us to judge, but for us to change ourselves from the inside.. which is exactly why a theocracy would be antichristian, because you cannot force spiritual messages in a secular material world

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"sure its a double standard... but equality is only relative right? like truth?"

This sums up you're thoughts rather well.



actually i was being sarcastic.. GOd says truth is not relative but universal; that all beings are created equal. it is the occultists.. and evolutionists, who have supported the notion of superior races, survival of the fittest, social darwinism etc.


Quote:

Maybe you can clear something up for me. Why is it that Christians and others have such a hard time getting the simple concept that not everything is a religion? You equate Atheism to Christianity as if they are both doctrines of faith, and although Atheism could be said to be a belief it is not an organised religion or even organised by any stretch of the imagination.


it is a worldview, it is the foundation, or the lens with which you view reality, therefore it is a personal religion. what is the difference between religion and spirituality? there is no difference but that some "religions" have chosen to institute material rituals and customs. if youll notice Jesus says "the body is the temple of GOd", which means that nothing is needed but the a personal commitment to God from within

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You don't even read what I write do you? I stated quite clearly that a crime by a theist is only religiously motivated if its motivated by religion. How can you say the bombing of an abortion clinic because "God says they're evil" isn't motivated by Christianity?


God, do be specific, doesnt say anything about abortion.. so our stance that abortion is a Sin if based on the universal acception that murder is a sin. to murder a sinner then is also a sin, so understand how these laws relate to eachother. ill concede that a christian bombing a clinic would ONLY be biblically motivated, if we can prove that NO atheists disagree with abortion. but it is not biblically justified, which is entirely different

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How can you say that someone brought up their entire life with the Christian doctrines that homosexuals deserve to die (see above) who then goes out and kills homosexuals isn't motivated by Christianity? You can't, but you do, that's your hypocrisy.


"what business is it of mine to judge those OUTSIDE the chruch? are you not to judge those inside? GOD WILL JUDGE THOSE OUTSIDE!" 1Cor 5:10

"so whatever you believe about these things, keep between yourself and GOd. BLESSED IS THE MAN WHO DOES NOT CONDENM HIMSELF BY WHAT HE APPROVES" Romans 14:22

"you, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgement do the same things." Romans 2

this is why it is so important what Jesus preaches, because he spoke on behalf of GOD. listen to what he says

"the teachers of the law and the pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. they made her stand before the group and said to Jesus., "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. in the Law of Moses commanded us to stone such women. NOW WHAT DO YOU SAY?.." Jesus said "if any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

this is proof of my point that Jesus created a new covenant, different from that of the babylonian heretical jews

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Strangely enough it would be rather difficult to find a crime or circumstance where Atheism was a driving motivator. What's Christianity? It's a collection of hundreds of beliefs and doctrines, ranging from "their is a God" to "God has a son" and including things like "love thy neighbour" and "Kill Homosexuals". What's Atheism? It's the label used to group Atheist, who have one and only one uniting belief, that "there is no God".


exactly... so ethics are determined by the individuals conscience, RELIGIOUS OR NOT! why not sleep with your fathers wife, or hate your parents, if there is no divine judgement? does that not motivate an athiest to act according to the discretion of his own conscience? then why is that never a motive??

Quote:

You position appears to be that Christianity is innocent, no matter what, someone kills a homosexual based on entries in the Bible, well you know what brother it has nothing to do with the Bible. That's crap.


why would someone who believes in an eternal, just, all loving GOd then commit a murder, and feel justified? why does "thou shalt not kill" appear on the ten commandments, if it wasnt A COMMANDMENT

i think a lot of things are attributed to christians that quite frankly could come from any number of societal factors; you would find it rediculous if i said rock music was Satanic, that horror movies and video games are responsible for teenage violence, because i have no direct proof what the true cause would be in such an instance. so why is the bible any different? most christians have never even read the whole bible

Quote:

In order to win the debate you attempt to paint my position as the polar opposite, namely all crimes committed by Christians are Christian motivated, this is crap two fold, firstly because that position is as untrue as your own, and secondly because it isn't my position.



ok, so acknowledge that athiesm can be responsible for some form of violence! otherwise, you ARE saying that only thiests are motivated murderers, since there is no way to prove what an athiests motivation is.


Quote:

This is that whole thing that if you repeat a lie loud and long enough it becomes the truth, right?


why not, you do! you insist that the bible is a book of hate, while i, being a christian, wholeheartedly disagree with you. you say that christains want a global theocracy, when the bible itself warns of such an institution as "the system of the beast"

Quote:

Lets stop talking about my world-view shall we, you don't know what that is. I mean you can't even seem to workout what my position on this subject is when I've flat out told you what it is.


look Citizen, i understand your point, that the bible can inspire religious hate. my point is, if people actually understood the scriptures, they would find that to justify such acts would be heretical! you think that theres a conspiracy to bring about a theocratic christian government, when the facts clearly show that it is a LUCIFERIAN agenda, which IS NOT JESUS CHRISTIAN! this has been my point all along, which is a clear contradiction to your premise

you dont believe athiests desire a global religion based on science? because that is what is happening currently, not this fantasy christian theocracy of yours

Quote:

The great distinction between the world-view of a Christian is that their world-view is largely fostered by Christianity, whereas the world-view of an Atheist is largely personal. Atheism isn't a doctrine of faith, that's the simple concept you seem woefully unable to grasp.


OK, well Dahmer was a cannabil, eating human flesh... which is forbidden by the bible; therefore can i deduce that he was acting according to an athiestic worldview? that is the equivelant to what you are doing

Quote:

Yes everyone I don't tolerate religious fanatics killing in the name of Christianity, Islam or any other religion. What a nasty intolerant evil person I am.


i dont either! we have something in common! and believe it or not the GOd of the bible aslo agrees! but the difference is that i wont tolerate secular extremism, like Marxism, which inspired communism and all the evils it was responsible for atleast i am willing to expose all types of unjustice, whereas you uncorrectly attribute all extremism towards theists


Quote:

I never said it was, but you'll never find anyone using my world view to justify holy wars or murder either.


that is such an intolerate statement, because no *sincere christian in his right mind would do so either. holy wars... we're talking about things that happened centuries ago right? actually, the catholic church was satanic in its murder and diception for conquest; and Satan WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN.

i guess vietnam, ww1, and thousands of other conflicts throughout history were all a result of evangelical proselytizing.. and not by secular governments concocting war for control

i dont approve of the global technocratic police state, which science and evolution have given rise too.. but im not willing to place blame on atheists for its establishment.

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Condemns it? Mate you really need to read that book.


yes, the bible condmens MANS JUDGEMENT UPON MEN. i think it is you who needs to read the bible. you take random scriptures out of context in the OT, before GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH, and claim its the basis for current fundementalism; as if christians are out murdering gays and stoning adulterers. do you recognize that their is a difference between christianity and judiasm? or are religions the same to you?

one more time, JESUS EXPLICITLY SAYS "do not judge, or YOU WILL BE JUDGED> FOR THE MEASURE YOU USE WILL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU" . understand, WE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO JUDGE OTHER BY THE LAW< ONLY GOD DOES. i dont know how much more clearly i can state that. YES there are extremists who take life into their own hands, but they are not listening to GOD when he says ONLY HE IS FIT TO JUDGE


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I never said they didn't, I never said they were, and I don't. You're own biases are showing through.


i have no biases... you are the one attacking christians; it is not me attacking athiests. you are telling me that we are morally inferior because we subscribe to the bible, meanwhile athiests avoid scrutiny because they have no common worldview to attribute a cause to. is that not indifferent?

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No, but I'm sure you're about to try and prove how they were all part of "evil science".


you just proved my point; christianity can be linked to unjust immorality, but not darwinism or science.. you said it yourself


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Nazism wasn't a scientific dictatorship, I'll listen when you get a source a little bit more credible than an anti science rant from the "jumped up on prozac crazy conspiracy website". In fact, and here's some interesting facts the author of your rant missed out, Nazism had a huge Christian following, the Nazis said they were going to build a Christian empire and eradicate the Jewish scourge.



why was Hitler obsessed with these 'myths' of a superior arian race that previously existed? this concept FITS WITHIN evolution, as the bible says that all human beings were created equally. were christians decieved? yes... but were the Nazis christians? i suggest you call the next christian you meet a Nazi, and see what reaction you get

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A holy war to set up a holy empire, that sounds very scientific.


you are so out of touch its sad. do you think the NWO conspiracy is christian? is the only agenda in the world, and it has been proven, indisputably, to be an occult agenda, as evidenced by the symbolism so proudly displayed by its initiates... but you dont seem to care that the Masons and Illuminati are Luciferians... because you want christians to be the enemy

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And as for communism, well that shares more ideals and doctrines with religion than Science. Even going as far to ban 'other' religions.


because to worship the state is to idolize Man as God, to hold supreme the good of the collective over that of the individual. both these concepts are stricly denied by the bible

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Again you make a fundamental flaw assuming Science is a religion. Science doesn't tell us how to live our lives and it is not a doctrine of faith.


science suggests that only life in the physical exists; if that is untrue, then that is a BELIEF; you have no way of proving that life does not exist beyond the physical, therefore you are subscribing to an idealogy that holds the material world preeminent

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Friday, October 13, 2006 6:19 AM

CITIZEN


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Originally posted by Antimason:
then why havent i interpreted the bible that way? maybe the bible is dangerous, to people who do not take the time to gather the collective message of scripture; otherwise sure..you can find your own personal justification if you interpret it falsely.. but that doesnt make them right. just like i could find justification to murder by the influence of violence on TV, was it TV that made me do it? its hypocritical that theists are influenced to act immoraly because of our doctrines, but athiests are not influenced by anything at all in their worldview(or lack thereof)

For the same reason that some Muslims find the Qur'an telling them to blow shit up and others find that that is abhorrent and totally against the word of Allah. Fact is the justification for both views are found in the Qur'an, it's just a matter of emphasis. It's the same with the Bible, and I hastened to add all though I happen to agree with you that it is wrong they think that they are right and your interpretation is incorrect.

As for putting the influence of Christianity on a par with violent films and television, please, that's ridiculous.
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yah, and you took those quotes horribly out of context.
And this is argument #1 on the list. When the Bible says something good it stands on it's own, when it says something bad it's "horrible out of context". No really, really, really, really it is.
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when JEsus talks about a 'sword', you wouldnt know he is talking about GODS WORD unless youve actually referenced the whole of scripture.
Yes because people often mean lively debate when they say they're bring a sword to destroy the peace. So God's word was sent to destroy peace was it? You do realise you've proven my point to a degree further than I even intended to I hope.
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you wouldnt understand that GOD acts just by an unseen hand, and doesnt literally come down and smite innocent people like you claim.
Come on, try harder, this is too easy. You tell me I'm the one that needs to reread the Bible, yet you, the most obvious scholar, haven't even heard of the plagues of Egypt.
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OK, so admit one instance in history where an athiest commits an athiestic influenced murder? you cant! because we can only speculate what the cause and effect of an individuals actions are, and athiests have no set code of ethics by which to measure their actions; therefore
Or maybe because there hasn't been one, I certainly can't think of a single case where a crime has been committed because the perpetrator decided there was no God, though common sense tells me it must of happened at some point.

And you are dead right, Atheism has no fixed ethics or holy law which it tries to instil, so you'd be hard pressed to find a crime justified or inspired by these non-existent values, wouldn't you. Christianity does have these values, so it is possible to find crimes inspired or justified by these existing values if such crimes have occurred.

You're getting all uptight because you demand I prescribe equality to two unequal things, Atheism is not a Religion, Christianity is, pure and simple. No amount of screaming or calling me a Hypocrite because I won't let you have the universe all your own way is going to change that.
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actually i wouldnt, i would claim that every individual is responsible for his own actions.. just as the catholic preists being exposed as pedophiles are acting by their own consceince, and not inspired by scripture.
Except if their OCCULTISTS because OCCULTISTS are under HIVE mind CONTROL to take over the WORLD!!!!

Cthulhu FTAGN!
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look are you denying that to abort a living fetus is the equivelant of murder?
Yes I am. Are you saying sneezing is murder?
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this is a theological question..that being: is all life significant?
So you're a vegan? No wait plants are alive too.
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which is exactly why a theocracy would be antichristian, because you cannot force spiritual messages in a secular material world
And now you can explain how all the Christian Theocracies throughout history weren't Christian, they were Occultist Satanic NWO Evolutionist Mind Kontrollen! But please actually back it up rather than saying but Jesus. That's not an argument, its a temper tantrum.
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actually i was being sarcastic.. GOd says truth is not relative but universal; that all beings are created equal.
Oh I got you were trying to be sarcastic, saying that's what I thought an' all, I just thought it was amusing that it suited you better.
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it is the occultists.. and evolutionists, who have supported the notion of superior races, survival of the fittest, social darwinism etc.
Because Christians HAVE NEVER said they were better than non-Christians. Never like all the time. Social Darwinism my friend is not anything like you think it is, it is essentially Capitalism. Likewise survival of the Fittest is a natural law we see at work all the time, one that God created if God did indeed create the Universe.
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it is a worldview, it is the foundation, or the lens with which you view reality, therefore it is a personal religion.
No it really isn't.
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what is the difference between religion and spirituality?
A very big one actually. I think HKCavalier would be a better choice to explain it, especially since he has much more patients than I.
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if youll notice Jesus says "the body is the temple of GOd", which means that nothing is needed but the a personal commitment to God from within
So basically Christianity hasn't had bugger all to do with Jesus for about 2000 years, and you're trying to confuse people in order to win the argument.
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God, do be specific, doesnt say anything about abortion.. so our stance that abortion is a Sin if based on the universal acception that murder is a sin. to murder a sinner then is also a sin, so understand how these laws relate to eachother. ill concede that a christian bombing a clinic would ONLY be biblically motivated, if we can prove that NO atheists disagree with abortion. but it is not biblically justified, which is entirely different
The commandment is Thou Shalt not Murder, killing is okay as long as it is Justified. They think it's justified you're wrong and you're going round and round in circles saying the same thing over and over again. You're making me dizzy and bored.
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"what business is it of mine to judge those OUTSIDE the chruch? are you not to judge those inside? GOD WILL JUDGE THOSE OUTSIDE!" 1Cor 5:10

"so whatever you believe about these things, keep between yourself and GOd. BLESSED IS THE MAN WHO DOES NOT CONDENM HIMSELF BY WHAT HE APPROVES" Romans 14:22

"you, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgement do the same things." Romans 2

this is why it is so important what Jesus preaches, because he spoke on behalf of GOD. listen to what he says

"the teachers of the law and the pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. they made her stand before the group and said to Jesus., "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. in the Law of Moses commanded us to stone such women. NOW WHAT DO YOU SAY?.." Jesus said "if any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

this is proof of my point that Jesus created a new covenant, different from that of the babylonian heretical jews

Funny how you proved it exactly the same way as I proved there was a basis for violence in the NT, but when I do it it's not proof at all it's taking things out of context and blah blah blah.

I guess what's source for the goose is not for the gander, my isn't that, Hypocritical .
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exactly... so ethics are determined by the individuals conscience, RELIGIOUS OR NOT! why not sleep with your fathers wife, or hate your parents, if there is no divine judgement? does that not motivate an athiest to act according to the discretion of his own conscience? then why is that never a motive??
Yes yes I've heard it all before, if you don't believe in God you're immoral and sinful by default because everyone needs the threat of eternal damnation to behave. If that's true for you I'm really glad that we're separated by the Internet frankly, because that is basically saying we're all sociopaths scared into behaving.

It is a motive, but it's not one inspired by Atheism, no matter how much you'd like it to be so you can say how morally superior Christians are. Atheism isn't anything really, Christianity is something, it's a lot of something. It's really how amusing how you think a label should be compared equally to the largest religion on Earth. Borderline insane, but still amusing.
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why would someone who believes in an eternal, just, all loving GOd then commit a murder, and feel justified? why does "thou shalt not kill" appear on the ten commandments, if it wasnt A COMMANDMENT
Firstly it says thou shalt not murder which is a different thing entirely. Secondly I've got a good deal of Human history says they do exactly that to your:
"But in this bit of the Bible that says what I want to hear it says this, we can ignore this other bit of the Bible because it's inconvenient to me so it must be out of context"

Round and round we go, where it stops, oh I know when I get bored of saying the same thing over and over again and you sticking your fingers in your ears saying "La la la, I'm not listening!".
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look Citizen, i understand your point, that the bible can inspire religious hate. my point is, if people actually understood the scriptures, they would find that to justify such acts would be heretical!
Well done, now we're in the same book at least if not the same page. You don't get to disown people because they have an interpretation of your religion you don't like. You're a Christian it's your job to keep your house in order, not to make excuses as to how it's really not your fault. People don't accept it from the parents of a disobedient child so why should they accept it from you?
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you think that theres a conspiracy to bring about a theocratic christian government, when the facts clearly show that it is a LUCIFERIAN agenda, which IS NOT JESUS CHRISTIAN! this has been my point all along, which is a clear contradiction to your premise
No I think that a good deal of Christians want the US to be a Christian Governed, non secular, which is a Theocracy and is not against the tenants of Christianity. It's doesn't go against any premise I have.
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you dont believe athiests desire a global religion based on science? because that is what is happening currently, not this fantasy christian theocracy of yours
Atheist is a label for someone who believes there is no god. That's where Atheist begins and ends. So no it is decidedly impossible for Atheists to be grouped in that way. Atheism isn't a religion, and neither is Science, neither can they be. So really you're premise is based on you're desire for Science to be an evil scourge that must be wiped away by good Christianity. It's a fantasy shared by you and a few conspiracy theorists in desperate need of Vallium.
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but the difference is that i wont tolerate secular extremism, like Marxism, which inspired communism and all the evils it was responsible for atleast i am willing to expose all types of unjustice, whereas you uncorrectly attribute all extremism towards theists
No I don't, I have not and I'm getting fucking sick and tired of telling you that. You want to flat out lie too win a debate by painting me as the devil go ahead you are not fooling anyone but yourself.
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that is such an intolerate statement, because no *sincere christian in his right mind would do so either. holy wars... we're talking about things that happened centuries ago right? actually, the catholic church was satanic in its murder and diception for conquest; and Satan WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN.
It is not an intolerant statement unless we take your definition of intolerance, namely say what you like about everything and everyone save Christianity, it's off limits pure and infallible.

Sorry I prescribe to the real definition of intolerance, not the one fostered by Christians such as yourself so that they can play the oh look how hard done by victims we are card. And whatever way you cut it the Crusades the Spanish Inquisition and so on are all Christian and all based on Christian doctrine.

Go on fingers in your ears time.
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i guess vietnam, ww1, and thousands of other conflicts throughout history were all a result of evangelical proselytizing.. and not by secular governments concocting war for control
Vietnam was a war by proxy between the US and Russia, it was part of the clash between opposing view points. It was mainly though the Vietnamese fighting for independence from France.

WWI was a failure in the twisted alliances of old Europe designed to prevent war.

And most of those 'thousands of other wars' were fought by religious nations, so can't be said to be secular. I, unlike you, make no further judgements on no specifics with a very broad "all non-Christians are Satanists" brush.
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i have no biases... you are the one attacking christians; it is not me attacking athiests. you are telling me that we are morally inferior because we subscribe to the bible, meanwhile athiests avoid scrutiny because they have no common worldview to attribute a cause to. is that not indifferent?
Yes I get it already it's a terrible attack on Christians to not agree they're better morally than everyone else.

I'm not attacking Christians, but even if I were you are attacking EVERYONE else. Science, Atheists, non-Theists, Occultists, Evolutionists. Whose next for the chopping block on your little triad against all non-Christians I wonder?

And you have no biases? I only wish that for an instant you could realise the incredible irony of that incredibly biased statement.
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you just proved my point; christianity can be linked to unjust immorality, but not darwinism or science.. you said it yourself
No I said that you were about to attempt to prove how Science is responsible for all evils in the universe, and you did, right again, go me.

But since you want to put words in my mouth, yeah, you are right, Science can not be held responsible for immorality. Science has nothing to do with morality full stop, end of conversation. It's a tool, it's like blaming the hammer because you used masonry nails instead of wood.

I note with interest that you think any example of morality can be prescribed to religion, it's just when it goes all 'pete tong' we can blame everyone else huh.
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why was Hitler obsessed with these 'myths' of a superior arian race that previously existed? this concept FITS WITHIN evolution, as the bible says that all human beings were created equally. were christians decieved? yes... but were the Nazis christians? i suggest you call the next christian you meet a Nazi, and see what reaction you get
I suggest you call the next Scientist or Atheist or other non-Christian you meet a Nazi, see what reaction you get.

And suggesting that the superior Arian race concept of the Nazi's is Darwinism, that's delusional. Jews killed Jesus so they're evil so that proves that the Nazi concentration camps are Christian ha ha. Well it makes about as much sense.
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you are so out of touch its sad. do you think the NWO conspiracy is christian? is the only agenda in the world, and it has been proven, indisputably, to be an occult agenda, as evidenced by the symbolism so proudly displayed by its initiates... but you dont seem to care that the Masons and Illuminati are Luciferians... because you want christians to be the enemy
I'm out of touch and your the one in desperate need of medication who thinks the saucer people are taking over. Okay since we're playing the game of say some crazy shit and say it's been proven indisputably:

CHRISTIANS, under the power of the REVERSE VAMPIRES under the supervision of the SAUCER PEOPLE have hatched a diabolical plot to destroy the meal of Lunch, all proven indisputably by the fact that I missed Lunch both today and yesterday due to work. We're through the looking glass here people!

You just want Science to be the evil enemy so you can eradicate all non-Christian thought in the world.
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because to worship the state is to idolize Man as God, to hold supreme the good of the collective over that of the individual. both these concepts are stricly denied by the bible
Communism is also a governmental form that expects people to work for the betterment of each other, strive to be moral and just and a few other things that have nothing to do with Science, since Science doesn't tell us how to live our lives because it isn't a religion, a simple fact I am dismayed to still find you have not grasped.
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science suggests that only life in the physical exists;
No Science says only life in the physical is provable and that anything outside of that has nothing to do with science. In other words Science is letting religion keep it's thing and keeping well out of the way, if only religion would be so kind as to reciprocate. Unfortunately it seems Religion wants it all, not just what it's best at.
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if that is untrue, then that is a BELIEF; you have no way of proving that life does not exist beyond the physical, therefore you are subscribing to an idealogy that holds the material world preeminent
Except you're initial premise was one you made up, and your subsequent progression ends in illogicality because of this.

Well I'm done. This whole thing is like me telling you the sky is blue and you telling me it's wiznotschnitzel with the flarmbalongers and I'm a Hypocrite for saying otherwise.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, October 13, 2006 9:06 AM

ANTIMASON


i agree.. i did not seek to win a debate with you

i have no intention of converting you, i never had any a desire to.. you are entitled to your worldview, as ive always said. but i feel compelled to respond as ive noticed that thread after thread that you cannot resist throwing in an antitheistic comment about how we're all a bunch of extremists, fostering hate and seeking this fascist theocracy; meanwhile the secular world gets all this glory as representing these eternally just, sound fundementals of science.

if you can respect my right to believe in a creator, without the constant condescension and belittlement, i wouldnt go on with my apologist rants all the time; but it angers me that you see all these horrors with theism, with its adherents.. yet you escape blame solely because youve adopted evolution as your primary worldview. in sounds to me that youve decided that any theistic doctrine can potentially influence immorality, but the evolutionary view doesnt lead to anyy immorality whatsoever; am i wrong?

it seems to me anyway that the preeminence of science has directly contributed to the industrializion of the western world, which has had many negetive consequences on mankind. as a result of this obsessive drive for "progress", western society is typically very superficial and materially driven, where the endorsement of capitalism is used to justify social darwinism, the concentration of wealth among the hands of the elite foew. people now, instead of worshipping a God, now worship the physical world, the acquirement of material wealth and social stature...this is all equally as destructive as our religious doctrines isnt it? science thinks that it can progress to solve every obstacle presented, or created by mankind(or technology itself), becoming an obsessive goal to manifest a technocratic utopia, where mankind unites under the knowledge and convenience of scientific discovery; the problem is man is still sinful and imperfect, and such a global technocracy would only succeed in officially enslaving mankind in his own devices.

will you atleast acknowledge that mankind needs a spiritual message to guide scientific discovery, because science itself is not objective? if youll agree with that, then we can find some common ground, otherwise i maintain that their is a metaphysical influence within man that cannot me measured or addressed by the physical world, which is also neccessary for our evolution








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Friday, October 13, 2006 9:25 AM

ANTIMASON


what is your arguement exactly CITIZEN?

that christianity, judiasm and islam can be interpreted to justify and preach hate? if that is your premise, state that, so i can understand that theism is the equivelant to terrorism in your eyes

basically, if the whole world were to convert to athiesm, the majority of human immorality would cease to exist, as it is largely fostered by religious doctrine.. thats the assumption.

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