REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

North Korea Expodes NUKE !!

POSTED BY: JAYNEZTOWN
UPDATED: Monday, May 25, 2009 19:34
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Sunday, October 8, 2006 8:50 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


North Korea claims nuclear test
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/09/korea.nuclear.test/

Yen, South Korea Stocks, Won Fall on North Korea Nuclear Test
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ajJtJyADO7Po&refer
=home

SKorea says it will 'sternly respond'
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/09/asia/AS_GEN_SKorea_Nuclear.p
hp


China said on Monday it firmly opposed North Korea's nuclear test, denouncing it as "brazen" in unusually strong language, and demanded Pyongyang stop any action that could worsen the situation.
http://today.reuters.com/news/
China also urged North Korea to return to six-party talks it has hosted aimed at dismantling the North's nuclear programmes. The talks, which have been stalled for nearly a year, also group South Korea, Japan, the United States and Russia.
"The DPRK has ignored the widespread opposition of the international community and conducted a nuclear test brazenly on October 9," China's Foreign Ministry said in a statement on its Web site ( www.fmprc.gov.cn).

No word from the Whitehouse yet
I think President Bush must still be in bed, maybe somebody should wake him and tell him that a Nuke explosion may be going off on the Korean Peninsula


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Sunday, October 8, 2006 8:54 PM

RIGHTEOUS9


Now They've done it! We have no choice but to invade Venzuela at ONCE, for the sake of freedom and justice and the American Way!

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Sunday, October 8, 2006 9:05 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


S Korea detects tremor believed to be nuclear explosion
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1758836.htm



N Korea nuclear test destabilises region, Howard says
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1758963.htm
Prime Minister John Howard has strongly condemned North Korea's actions in carrying out a nuclear test.


North Korea tests nuclear bomb
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/09/ukorea
.xml

Russian military experts told the Sunday Telegraph yesterday that the bomb the North Koreans were preparing to test was big enough to kill up to 200,000 people if detonated in a densely-populated city.


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Sunday, October 8, 2006 9:52 PM

SASSALICIOUS


That's hot.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Sunday, October 8, 2006 10:45 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


All right, but so ?
What is anybody , or any nation, wiling to do to stop it? What is anybody, or any nation, actuallly capable of doing? What would actually get the attention of Kim Jong Il, and actually compel him to stop?
A lot of folks, and diplomats, have said negative things, some of them actually nasty, without achieving the desired result.
The Bush admin says it can't live with a nuke test. What are we gonna do, *M*O*V*E*?

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Monday, October 9, 2006 2:29 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


U.S. Geological Survey records 4.2 magnitude seismic event in North Korea
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/09/asia/AS_GEN_Koreas_Nuclear_Q
uake.php


The nuclear test announced by North Korea is unpardonable and irrational, New Zealand Foreign Minister Winston Peters said today.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20549594-1702,00.html

Russia condemns '5-15 kiloton' North Korean nuclear test
http://www.spacewar.com/2006/061009112917.irth4ev2.html

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Monday, October 9, 2006 2:31 AM

MAVOURNEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
What would actually get the attention of Kim Jong Il, and actually compel him to stop?



Two Words: Pamela Anderson


According to their biorythyms, Pamela Anderson and Kim Jong Il have a 96% compatability! It's in the stars, man! She'll soothe the savage beast.

http://www.facade.com/biorhythm/relationship/?Celeb=Kim_Jong_Il&Celeb2
=Pamela_Anderson


Other celebs with a high compatability for ol' Kim:

Ashlee Simpson - 94%
Jessica Simpson - 92%
and shockingly,
Fiona Apple - 89%

I guess Papa Simpson must be proud.


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Monday, October 9, 2006 5:59 AM

CHRISISALL


WTF?
Everybody here is joking away...
THIS IS SERIOUS!
It's like an act of rebellion! WAR!!

We must withdraw from Iraq NOW!!!
So we can invade Korea pre-emptivly, and we have to do it quick, so we can get back to Iran ASAP!

This is no time for levity!!!

Bip-bip, people Chrisisall



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Monday, October 9, 2006 6:22 AM

KANEMAN


We all knew this was coming for years. There isn't much we can do or should do about it. Up next... Iran's test...It will be much sooner than we are lead to believe.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 6:26 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


*sings* And we'll alllll go dooooowwwwn together!
Yes we'll alllll go dooooowwwwn together!

*starts digging a bomb shelter and canning food*

Heh. As a hippie I always did want to live in the 60's...




More graphics available at www.desktophippie.com - yes, I've moved!

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Monday, October 9, 2006 6:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Years ago I ripped off a desk and chair from my elementary school for just such an occasion, but now I have to find two more for my wife and son...

Who needs a shelter?

Under the desk Chrisisall

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Monday, October 9, 2006 7:20 AM

RABBIT2


Ok, Lets take a step back and look at the situation.
North Korea now has an experimental A bomb. They might have 4 or 5 practical weapons in a few years.
In the process they have seriously Ped off their friends in China and Russia.
Exactly how many H bombs has the US at the moment?

--------------------------------------------------

Flight Instructor: Son, know what the first rule of flying is?
Me: Don`t crash?

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Monday, October 9, 2006 7:25 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


But you're missing the point. America are the good guys and North Korea are the bad guys!

That's actually a scene I really enjoyed in 'Lost', when Hurley asked Sun if she was from "the good Korea or the bad Korea." Hee hee!




More graphics available at www.desktophippie.com - yes, I've moved!

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Monday, October 9, 2006 7:38 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Years ago I ripped off a desk and chair from my elementary school for just such an occasion, but now I have to find two more for my wife and son...

Who needs a shelter?

Under the desk Chrisisall


I've been doing it wrong for years. I could've sworn it was, "Stop. Drop. And roll." Or was plastic sheeting and duct tape involved? .

On a more serious note, looks like there is some ambiguity on the size of the explosion.

Well, at the very least, we can chalk this up as yet another foreign policy success for the Bush administration (I'm practicing spinning everything as a positive for the Republicans so I can get a job in the mainstream media).

And now back to snark... Best comment I've read this morning was over at firedoglake and was Twisted Martini's prediction for how Bush would start his speech this morning, "My fellow Americans, I have officially shit the bed."

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Monday, October 9, 2006 7:52 AM

CITIZEN


Have NK used nuclear weapons on a civilian population? If not they're still a fair bit ahead on their nuclear track record than certain others.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 9:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I swear this is all a spoiled brat's bid for attention. Maybe we need Supernanny at the table.

Oh BTW- I was talking about Kim Jong-Il.



---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 9:49 AM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Have NK used nuclear weapons on a civilian population? If not they're still a fair bit ahead on their nuclear track record than certain others.




Ouch! But you're right. Only the United States has the abhorrent distinction of using atomic weapons on a mostly civilian population, not once but twice. Of course that shouldn't upset you Citizen, because we both know that the U.S. enjoys a position of moral and ethical superiority in relation to the rest of the world.






America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.

-Hunter S. Thompson

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Monday, October 9, 2006 10:36 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Rabbit2:
Ok, Lets take a step back and look at the situation.
North Korea now has an experimental A bomb. They might have 4 or 5 practical weapons in a few years.
In the process they have seriously Ped off their friends in China and Russia.
Exactly how many H bombs has the US at the moment?

--------------------------------------------------

Flight Instructor: Son, know what the first rule of flying is?
Me: Don`t crash?



Rabbit, don't be fooled..China loves this and is anything but pissed. And we won't use any H bombs, at least not untill it is to late. Is this the October suprise? Nothing better for Reps. than a threatened America. Voters know the Left won't do sh*t......

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Monday, October 9, 2006 11:41 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I swear this is all a spoiled brat's bid for attention. Maybe we need Supernanny at the table.

Oh BTW- I was talking about Kim Jong-Il.



---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.



Funny, you could be describing Kim and Bush.

If the talking heads on CNN is to be believed, the six party negotiations had come up with two different deals that all partys except the US found acceptable. The speculation was that the US is fixed on " regime change " and really didn't want a negotiated deal --- leading of course to the well if your not going to deal in good faith, then maybe we really do need the weapons response.

The really funny party will be when Bolton presents his plan at the UN, and half the security council rejects it because they don't want to give the US an open mandate to do whatever the hell they want ( like Iraq )

I hope this doesn't help Bush with the mid term elections... it would be a shame for him to profit from a mess that he helped create.




" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12


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Monday, October 9, 2006 1:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I don't blame em one bit - the only effective deterrent to cowardly american aggression is "the bomb" and since we've gone completely batshit, everyone who doesn't have one, wants one.

We've become the playground bully of the planet.

-Frem

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Monday, October 9, 2006 1:27 PM

DREAMTROVE


I was thinking for a while there it was going to be impossible for the US to repair its world image, but now an opportunity has landed smack in our lap.

Take out Kim Jong Il quickly and effectively, and the entire world will forget about the mess we made of Iraq. Except for Iraq. But still, it wouldn't hurt.

But to know how MAD KJI is, you need to check out the newmaneter.





Separated at birth?

I think KJI ranks a full Newman, whereas out president



Only ranks about half a Newman. (Though admittedly, Ma out Newmans Pa)


http://www.tufts.edu/communications/stories/images2003/022703bushbig2.
JPG

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Monday, October 9, 2006 1:54 PM

MINK


Man, this board is infested with some serious "It's all America/Bush's fault" numbskulls. I mean, wow. Maybe you need to watch a little less sci-fi and study a little more history or something.

Let me guess, the Neocon/Zionist conspiracy is the root of all agression in the world today.

Mr. Il is only doing what anyone else would do in the face of the Bushist threat, eh? Maybe so. If I was a little sh!thead mass murdering freak I would probably feel the same way. Then again, if I was more interested in a free, open society where people had enough food to eat, I might not be so concerned.

How come North Korea seems to be the only country around there feeling threatened by the US, while everyone else feels threatened by ... North Korea? I don't understand. Maybe they're just scared of the evil Bush and playing along?




It's okay to leave them to die.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 1:54 PM

MINK


Man, this board is infested with some serious "It's all America/Bush's fault" numbskulls. I mean, wow. Maybe you need to watch a little less sci-fi and study a little more history or something.

Let me guess, the Neocon/Zionist conspiracy is the root of all agression in the world today.

Mr. Il is only doing what anyone else would do in the face of the Bushist threat, eh? Maybe so. If I was a little sh!thead mass murdering freak I would probably feel the same way. Then again, if I was more interested in a free, open society where people had enough food to eat, I might not be so concerned.

How come North Korea seems to be the only country around there feeling threatened by the US, while everyone else feels threatened by ... North Korea? I don't understand. Maybe they're just scared of the evil Bush and playing along?




It's okay to leave them to die.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 2:17 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I don't blame em one bit - the only effective deterrent to cowardly american aggression is "the bomb" and since we've gone completely batshit, everyone who doesn't have one, wants one.

We've become the playground bully of the planet.

-Frem



Not really ......Just NK and Iran

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Monday, October 9, 2006 2:21 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by mink:
Man, this board is infested with some serious "It's all America/Bush's fault" numbskulls. I mean, wow. Maybe you need to watch a little less sci-fi and study a little more history or something.

Let me guess, the Neocon/Zionist conspiracy is the root of all agression in the world today.

Mr. Il is only doing what anyone else would do in the face of the Bushist threat, eh? Maybe so. If I was a little sh!thead mass murdering freak I would probably feel the same way. Then again, if I was more interested in a free, open society where people had enough food to eat, I might not be so concerned.

How come North Korea seems to be the only country around there feeling threatened by the US, while everyone else feels threatened by ... North Korea? I don't understand. Maybe they're just scared of the evil Bush and playing along?




It's okay to leave them to die.



Mink, what are you doing here? This is an America sucks/Is the root of all evil board. I like to stop in and watch the circle jerk....funny shit!

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Monday, October 9, 2006 2:43 PM

MINK


My bad ... I get confused because in other portions of this site people go on and on about how much they love the 'verse because it's all about people being free to live how they want and so forth, but then I stumble in here and it's all about how we should move to Venezuela because Chavez is such a swell guy.

Hey, look, I too think that Bush goes too far sometimes when it comes to invading civil liberties and expanding the reach of the government, but at least that makes me consistent!

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 2:43 PM

MINK


My bad ... I get confused because in other portions of this site people go on and on about how much they love the 'verse because it's all about people being free to live how they want and so forth, but then I stumble in here and it's all about how we should move to Venezuela because Chavez is such a swell guy.

Hey, look, I too think that Bush goes too far sometimes when it comes to invading civil liberties and expanding the reach of the government, but at least that makes me consistent!

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 2:54 PM

USBROWNCOAT


Mink, Bush is a flash in the pan.....NK, Venezuela, China are run by dicks... most likely forever! Try and explain that to the 'verse....Good luck...They are way to "Shiney"

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Monday, October 9, 2006 5:16 PM

RIGHTEOUS9



Mink, when writing your thesis about how this isn't Bush's fault, be sure to adress why it doesn't matter that North Korea had about 20 percent of its Uranium before Clinton entered office, and remained there until Clinton left,at which point NK came by the other 80 percent.

Also, let all of us crazies know why a company that was headed by Rumsfeld in 2000 sold nuclear reactors to that country,

and explain why amidst all of this, according to Bob Woodward, Bush was asking "why should I care about North Korea?...I get these breifings on all parts of the world and everybody is talking to me about North Korea?"

Now put that all back in the context of Kim JOng Il being the crazy bastard you contend he is.

Make it work.

I look forward to reading it.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 6:00 PM

MINK


Wait ... you don't think he's a crazy bastard?

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 6:00 PM

MINK


Wait ... you don't think he's a crazy bastard?

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 6:48 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I swear this is all a spoiled brat's bid for attention. Maybe we need Supernanny at the table.

Oh BTW- I was talking about Kim Jong-Il.



---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.



Funny, you could be describing Kim and Bush.

If the talking heads on CNN is to be believed, the six party negotiations had come up with two different deals that all partys except the US found acceptable. The speculation was that the US is fixed on " regime change " and really didn't want a negotiated deal --- leading of course to the well if your not going to deal in good faith, then maybe we really do need the weapons response.

The really funny party will be when Bolton presents his plan at the UN, and half the security council rejects it because they don't want to give the US an open mandate to do whatever the hell they want ( like Iraq )

I hope this doesn't help Bush with the mid term elections... it would be a shame for him to profit from a mess that he helped create.




" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12




I bet there will be a fabulous treaty, signed by all parties present except for the U.S. and perhaps S.Korea. Then, we can claim we don't recognize the treaty and together with S.Korea invade and take over the Korean peninsula! WOOHOO!!!!!

BOMBS OVER PYONGYANG!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Monday, October 9, 2006 6:49 PM

SASSALICIOUS


I was absolutely dead serious.

Perhaps channeling Paris Hilton.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Monday, October 9, 2006 11:18 PM

RIGHTEOUS9


Absolutely not implying that...the question really is whether or not the administration should have been keeping tabs on this crazy bastard, not facilitating him.

If he is so obviously crazy (and I don't disagree) then why wasn't he a number 1 priority for Bush and his cronies? You said they weren't to blame...and yet...Kim Jong = batshit is like saying sky = blue...and they let him get nukes?

Every step this administration has taken has been one towards destabilization of the world, and that makes them either very cynical or very batshit themselves.

Maybe you'd like this to be your thesis instead. "This administration is not batshit crazy, nor is it attempting to create a global environment of perpetual war for the purpose of massive war profiteering and power grabs abroad, while perpetuating a state of constant war (cold or otherwise) on the homefront, further enabling it to rob our programs blind while crushing our oversight and putting a big boot on the necks of the American Citizen..." I would very much be interested in reading that one as well.

Please though, address the facts I mentioned in the previous post when you respond, instead of drawing from your wealth of 'common sense.' Common sense is the killer of curiosity, even when you just luck out and happen to be right. In this case I think you would be wrong, but will seriously endeavor to keep an open mind.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, we've again come to the conundrum of what to do with rogue nations. The options are pretty limited because N Korea has got one concept right: nuclear nations are treated very, very differently than non-nuclear nations.

The options are:

the carrot: trade and aid
the stick: sanctions
invasion/ bombing: not an option for nuclear nations
assassination: Kim Jong-Il is way too paranoid for this
ignore: not sure this is an option.

So we're left with the carrot and the stick. Any other ideas?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 6:34 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, we've again come to the conundrum of what to do with rogue nations. The options are pretty limited because N Korea has got one concept right: nuclear nations are treated very, very differently than non-nuclear nations.

The options are:

the carrot: trade and aid
the stick: sanctions
invasion/ bombing: not an option for nuclear nations
assassination: Kim Jong-Il is way too paranoid for this
ignore: not sure this is an option.

So we're left with the carrot and the stick. Any other ideas?



Considering how well the carrot and the stick worked last time, is there any reason to believe it will work this time?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_U.S.-North_Korea_nuclear_pact

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 7:24 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Or was plastic sheeting and duct tape involved?"

Sounds like a mob hit. Or something kinky.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 7:42 AM

MINK


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:


"This administration is not batshit crazy, nor is it attempting to create a global environment of perpetual war for the purpose of massive war profiteering and power grabs abroad, while perpetuating a state of constant war (cold or otherwise) on the homefront, further enabling it to rob our programs blind while crushing our oversight and putting a big boot on the necks of the American Citizen..."



Hey, that's not a bad thesis. I'm not sure I'm in a position to prove or disprove it, however. We do, however, live in a functioning republic in which it is your great good fortune to be able to effect regime change through peaceful means. I therefore have a hard time taking seriously complaints about the "perpetual" nature of this administration's intentions.

As for the boot on your neck, you still have no idea, do you? In the last six years, what freedoms have you lost? Are you restricted to a greater degree in your ability to criticize government, associate with persons of your choice, practice your religion, travel, raise your family, choose a profession, access information and communicate with others (these abilities have, if anything, experienced geometric increases)? Have you faced military conscription? Some of the most onerous restrictions and governmental heavy-handedness that does exist (e.g., the war on drugs) was in place and trampling people's rights long before Bush came on the scene.

The boot that I feel is the relentless approach of fiscal and economic crisis due to the government's primarily spending money it either borrowed from China or printed up on the fly, and a heavy boot it is.

As for the DPRK, I thought Bush made his priorities reasonably clear in his infamous "axis of evil" speech. Beyond that, why should they be such a priority? I'm a lot more worried about nukes leaking out of Pakistan than anything the Koreans could do.


It's okay to leave them to die.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 7:42 AM

MINK


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:


"This administration is not batshit crazy, nor is it attempting to create a global environment of perpetual war for the purpose of massive war profiteering and power grabs abroad, while perpetuating a state of constant war (cold or otherwise) on the homefront, further enabling it to rob our programs blind while crushing our oversight and putting a big boot on the necks of the American Citizen..."



Hey, that's not a bad thesis. I'm not sure I'm in a position to prove or disprove it, however. We do, however, live in a functioning republic in which it is your great good fortune to be able to effect regime change through peaceful means. I therefore have a hard time taking seriously complaints about the "perpetual" nature of this administration's intentions.

As for the boot on your neck, you still have no idea, do you? In the last six years, what freedoms have you lost? Are you restricted to a greater degree in your ability to criticize government, associate with persons of your choice, practice your religion, travel, raise your family, choose a profession, access information and communicate with others (these abilities have, if anything, experienced geometric increases)? Have you faced military conscription? Some of the most onerous restrictions and governmental heavy-handedness that does exist (e.g., the war on drugs) was in place and trampling people's rights long before Bush came on the scene.

The boot that I feel is the relentless approach of fiscal and economic crisis due to the government's primarily spending money it either borrowed from China or printed up on the fly, and a heavy boot it is.

As for the DPRK, I thought Bush made his priorities reasonably clear in his infamous "axis of evil" speech. Beyond that, why should they be such a priority? I'm a lot more worried about nukes leaking out of Pakistan than anything the Koreans could do.


It's okay to leave them to die.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 7:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BigDamnNoth... Nobody: After six years of Bush doing NOTHING, this is where we are. I asked for ideas- you apparently have none. But you never do, so I'm not surprised.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:20 AM

MINK


To my mind, there are two options:

1) do whatever it takes to shut down the nuclear program, including full scale invasion, nuclear annihilation, whatever.

2) do nothing.

Intermediate steps, sure, whatever, carrots, sticks, they're still going to do what they're going to do. To my mind it's all the functional equivalent of #2. I am in favor of #2, because nobody wants to take responsibility for #1 until they get kicked in the nuts.

I say ignore them and chances are they will never be able to develop the capacity to strike the U.S. directly. Either the commie regime eventually just goes away through internal processes, or they attack a neighbor, such as Japan or the ROK. At that point, the locals can put their boys on the front line while we provide support.

Unfortunate consequence of #2 is I predict a wave of new nuclear nations, especially across the arab world, because they see that they won't be stopped. But that is the way of things. I always thought the concept of nonproliferation was a little unrealistic. No, we're limited to mutual deterrence and one day, more likely than not, we will see another nuclear attack somewhere on this planet.

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:20 AM

MINK


To my mind, there are two options:

1) do whatever it takes to shut down the nuclear program, including full scale invasion, nuclear annihilation, whatever.

2) do nothing.

Intermediate steps, sure, whatever, carrots, sticks, they're still going to do what they're going to do. To my mind it's all the functional equivalent of #2. I am in favor of #2, because nobody wants to take responsibility for #1 until they get kicked in the nuts.

I say ignore them and chances are they will never be able to develop the capacity to strike the U.S. directly. Either the commie regime eventually just goes away through internal processes, or they attack a neighbor, such as Japan or the ROK. At that point, the locals can put their boys on the front line while we provide support.

Unfortunate consequence of #2 is I predict a wave of new nuclear nations, especially across the arab world, because they see that they won't be stopped. But that is the way of things. I always thought the concept of nonproliferation was a little unrealistic. No, we're limited to mutual deterrence and one day, more likely than not, we will see another nuclear attack somewhere on this planet.

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:34 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"1) do whatever it takes to shut down the nuclear program, including full scale invasion, nuclear annihilation, whatever."

Does that include two-party talks?

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:21 AM

MINK


No, two-party talks are in the realm of doing nothing. After the DPRK openly admitted to operating a clandestine development program all along in violation of the 1994 Agreed Framework with the U.S., which consisted of various energy carrots in exchange for halting nuclear weapons development, I simply have a hard time believing otherwise.

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:21 AM

MINK


No, two-party talks are in the realm of doing nothing. After the DPRK openly admitted to operating a clandestine development program all along in violation of the 1994 Agreed Framework with the U.S., which consisted of various energy carrots in exchange for halting nuclear weapons development, I simply have a hard time believing otherwise.

It's okay to leave them to die.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:36 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by SignyM:
BigDamnNoth... Nobody: After six years of Bush doing NOTHING, this is where we are. I asked for ideas- you apparently have none. But you never do, so I'm not surprised.



I could mention the fact that it was the Clinton administration in power when the agreement started falling off the tracks.
I could mention the fact that the Bush administration did in fact do something (it's in the article which I referenced).
I could also mention the fact that the way you framed the original question left the carrot and the stick as the only viable options.
Instead I will try to point out that, IMHO, what good are sanctions and/or incentives if the problem will just arise again in a few years time?
The fact that even China is speaking out about North Korea's nuclear test is a positive sign. Perhaps the stick and carrot might even work if all parties involved remain vigilant and China isn't sneaking stuff in through the back door.

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:42 PM

SEVENPERCENT


So let me get this straight, Mink -

You're advocating nuclear annihilation of a country of 20+ million people as a response to a (according to the latest report) failed nuclear test by a tinpot dictator disliked by his own neighbors (China, who has come out far more strongly against it than I thought they would)?

So starving, unarmed farmers and impoverished workers should get vaporized so that you can be secure in the knowledge that the NKoreans can't "get you?"

What's your dream penalty for jaywalking? Death by firing squad?

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:00 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

I could mention the fact that it was the Clinton administration in power when the agreement started falling off the tracks.


You could mention that, but then I'd have to mention that the Clinton plan's parameters were for proliferation-proof reactors, watched over by UN inspectors.

Quote:

I could mention the fact that the Bush administration did in fact do something (it's in the article which I referenced).

Yep. They did something all right. In 2002, they agreed to (and I quote) release $95m to North Korea as part of an agreement to replace the Stalinist country's own nuclear programme ...
In releasing the funding, President George W Bush waived the Framework's requirement that North Korea allow inspectors to ensure it has not hidden away any weapons-grade plutonium from the original reactors


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1908571.stm

But, hey, go ahead and blame Clinton; it's what the GOP's best at.




------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:06 PM

DREAMTROVE


I think anyone hear can attest to the fact that I am not a Clinton fan.

But this is *so* not about Bill Clinton. It's barely about G.W.B., it's mostly about K.J.I, and a little bit about commies in general and why did China put up with this and back this loon for so long?

But, mostly, this is about what to do about it now that the whole situation has boiled over. Anyone who is left ruminating and moping about the past is really not helping. We have a situation on our hands.

My first choice was follow Trey Parker's idea and let Team America kick his butt, but I take Signym's point that he would just nuke someone. Hmmm. Maybe we should hire Al Qaeda to do it. They wouldn't have a target to nuke, and all the suspect ones would be out of range anyways.

Hey! I like my plan.

What we have to not do is lose another country to the commies, particularly not the lunatic nuclear commies. I think this country sat and twiddled its thumbs as we lost Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan over the last few years, and we really can't afford to lose South Korea without grinding America completely to a holt. Remember, SK isn't just a good ally, they're easily as important to the day to day workings of the US economy as Silicon Valley, and more important than Detroit. If China was about to invade California would we sit around and say "Hmm. Lookee at that."?
Um, that was meant to be a rhetorical question, but the more I think about it, the more I think we would.

So, can we can the "it's all the democrats/republicans fault" and realize, "No one fixed this problem, and now it's our problem, and how we got here is less important than where we go from here."

At the moment if either one wants my vote in november they'll get at least an ass or two over there and show me some results. (And yeah there are 44 democrats and 55 republicans in the US senate who are all allowed to go negotiate on behalf of America.) Someone has to step up and eat some Kimchi with Kim Jong before we all become barbequed bulgogi.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:29 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Originally posted by mink:
No, two-party talks are in the realm of doing nothing.

During the Clinton years the DPRK was held to the same amount of plutonium they started out with. Most estimates are that under dubya's watch the DPRK made 5 TIMES as much plutonium. The DPRK expelled the UN inspectors in 2003, and withdrew from the NNPT and multi-party talks in 2005. All during you’re hero's administration.

Clinton held the line with two-party talks using coordinated punishments and rewards. Dubya seems to have failed at even that.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:39 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNothi ...Nobody:
...I will try to point out that, IMHO, what good are sanctions and/or incentives if the problem will just arise again in a few years time?
The fact that even China is speaking out about North Korea's nuclear test is a positive sign.

The US has neither carrot nor stick at hand. What's the US going to do? Attack N Korea either conventionally or w/ nuclear bombs? And then what - have the US face down China? That's not a winnable scenario. As for carrots - since the US isn't talking to N Korea (I've heard it described as 'Paris Hilton' diplomacy - 'I'm not talking to them, they know what they've done') and not ready to proffer any carrots anyway, so much for that approach.

So, thanks to dubya, the only country with influence is China. Do you feel good about having your future in China's hands? While knowing that they, of course, are looking after their best interests, not yours?

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:02 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

I could mention the fact that it was the Clinton administration in power when the agreement started falling off the tracks.


You could mention that, but then I'd have to mention that the Clinton plan's paramenters were for proliferation-proof reactors, watched over by UN inspectors.



You could mention it again, I suppose. I thought the linked Wikipedia article did a fair job spelling out the plans original parameters.

Quote:


Quote:

I could mention the fact that the Bush administration did in fact do something (it's in the article which I referenced).

Yep. They did something all right. In 2002, they agreed to (and I quote) release $95m to North Korea as part of an agreement to replace the Stalinist country's own nuclear programme ...
In releasing the funding, President George W Bush waived the Framework's requirement that North Korea allow inspectors to ensure it has not hidden away any weapons-grade plutonium from the original reactors


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1908571.stm



Thanks for providing an alternate link backing up my point to SignyM.

Quote:


But, hey, go ahead and blame Clinton; it's what the GOP's best at.



I am not a member of the GOP... not that there's anything wrong with that.

I shouldn't be surprised that a simple question to SignyM regarding the questionable results derived from the stick and the carrot method of diplomacy with North Korea would be misconstrued as a partisan attack. SignyM brought partisanship into the discussion and you graciously fanned the flames.






Posting to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:23 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I shouldn't be surprised that a simple question to SignyM regarding the questionable results derived from the stick and the carrot method of diplomacy with North Korea would be misconstrued as a partisan attack.



Of course you shouldn't be surprised, you framed the question/answer in such a way as to make it sound like a partisan strike - which I suspect it was, regardless to your assertion to the contrary. You were just waiting till someone responded, then you could play the "Help! I'm being oppressed!" card.

The post I responded to started with a classic "But Clinton" and followed that with a "but Bush did something," framed in such a way as to make Clinton look like the only one to blame for the current situation.

Your response was loaded, and you know it; I called you on it and you're trying to play the neutral "victim."

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:54 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


BDN,

I'm curious what you think. "... the only country with influence is China. Do you feel good about having your future in China's hands? While knowing that they, of course, are looking after their best interests, not yours?"

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 5:28 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Now we know what Bush's October Surprise is, thanks to nuclear bomb gifts from Sir Donald Rumsfeld Jewish Knight of the British Empire.

Quote:


Rumsfeld link to sale of reactors to North Korea

By Randeep Ramesh
Sydney Morning Herald
May 10 2003

The US Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, sat on the board of a company that three years ago sold two light water nuclear reactors to North Korea - a country he now regards as part of the "axis of evil" and which has been targeted for regime change by Washington because of its efforts of build nuclear weapons.

Mr Rumsfeld was a non-executive director of ABB, a European engineering giant based in Zurich, when it won a $US200 million contract to provide the design and key components for the reactors. He sat on the board from 1990 to 2001, earning $US190,000 a year. He left to join the Bush Administration.

www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/09/1052280441337.html


The two faces of Rumsfeld

2000: director of a company which wins $200m contract to sell nuclear reactors to North Korea
2002: declares North Korea a terrorist state, part of the axis of evil and a target for regime change

Randeep Ramesh
May 9, 2003
London Guardian

Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, sat on the board of a company which three years ago sold two light water nuclear reactors to North Korea - a country he now regards as part of the "axis of evil" and which has been targeted for regime change by Washington because of its efforts to build nuclear weapons.

Mr Rumsfeld was a non-executive director of ABB, a European engineering giant based in Zurich, when it won a $200m (£125m) contract to provide the design and key components for the reactors. The current defence secretary sat on the board from 1990 to 2001, earning $190,000 a year. He left to join the Bush administration.

www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,952289,00.html


Rummy's North Korea Connection

What did Donald Rumsfeld know about ABB's deal to build nuclear reactors there? And why won't he talk about it?


By Richard Behar
CNN Money
Fortune Magazine
May 12, 2003

Rumsfeld declined requests by FORTUNE to elaborate on his role. But ABB spokesman Bjorn Edlund has told FORTUNE that "board members were informed about this project." And other ABB officials say there is no way such a large and high-stakes project, involving complex questions of liability, would not have come to the attention of the board. "A written summary would probably have gone to the board before the deal was signed," says Robert Newman, a former president of ABB's U.S. nuclear division who spearheaded the project. "I'm sure they were aware."

FORTUNE contacted 15 ABB board members who served at the time the company was bidding for the Pyongyang contract, and all but one declined to comment. That director, who asked not to be identified, says he's convinced that ABB's chairman at the time, Percy Barnevik, told the board about the reactor project in the mid-1990s. "This was a major thing for ABB," the former director says, "and extensive political lobbying was done."

ABB, which was already building eight nuclear reactors in South Korea, had an inside track on the $4 billion U.S.-sponsored North Korea project. The firm was told "our participation is essential," recalls Frank Murray, project manager for the reactors. (He plays the same role now at Westinghouse, which was acquired by Britain's BNFL in 1999, a year before it also bought ABB's nuclear power business.) The North Korean reactors are being primarily funded by South Korean and Japanese export-import banks and supervised by KEDO, a consortium based in New York.

Even so, ABB tried to keep its involvement hush-hush. In a 1995 letter from ABB to the Department of Energy obtained by FORTUNE, the firm requested authorization to release technology to the North Koreans, then asked that the seemingly innocuous one-page letter be withheld from public disclosure. "Everything was held close to the vest for some reason," says Ronald Kurtz, ABB's U.S. spokesman. "It wasn't as public as contracts of this magnitude typically are."

Given the Republican outcry over the reactor deal, Rumsfeld's public silence is nearly deafening. "Almost any Republican was complaining about it," says Winston Lord, President Clinton's assistant secretary of state for East Asian/Pacific Affairs.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/05/12/3423
16/index.htm




Ain't it funny how the pathological liars in the Media Mafia censor this fact when they report this week on N Korea's nuke test? Ain't it funny that Uncle Scam has already nuked USA over 1,050 times, according to History Channel? Ain't it funny that the Jewish Israeli citizen hired by Jr Bush to run US Dept of Homeland Security (Michael Chertoff) orders the borders to remain wide open to 10,000 terrorists every day, and even the San Diego Fence has giant "concrete water drainage ditches" large enough for 5 terrorists to walk side by side under the "fence"?

North Korea is just following orders from the New World Odor of the Illuminati, just like Noriega, Saddam, Qadaffi, Ho Chi Min, Castro, Stalin, Hitler, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush and Bush.

Sir Donald also gave WMDs to Saddam during his infamous videotaped meeting in Iraq.


www.awolbush.com

"You can't stop the signal! Hey, didn't your mommy say you could put somebody's eye out with that thing?"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
www.piratenews.org


Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 5:37 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Of course you shouldn't be surprised, you framed the question/answer in such a way as to make it sound like a partisan strike - which I suspect it was, regardless to your assertion to the contrary. You were just waiting till someone responded, then you could play the "Help! I'm being oppressed!" card.



Could be.

Quote:


The post I responded to started with a classic "But Clinton" and followed that with a "but Bush did something," framed in such a way as to make Clinton look like the only one to blame for the current situation.



That's another take.

Quote:


Your response was loaded, and you know it; I called you on it and you're trying to play the neutral "victim."



I still fail to see how my first post to SignyM had any political slant (please contact Wikipedia if you think the linked article is too partisan). As stated above, my more 'loaded' second post was in response to SignyM's automatic Bush is to blame for everything wrong rebuttal. An automatic rebuttal obviously triggered not by the post but by the poster.



Posting to stir stuff up.

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