REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Museum Madness

POSTED BY: SERYN
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 18:10
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Monday, November 13, 2006 2:07 AM

SERYN


I got this sent to me today, thought it might provide some light relief -

Quote:

So what's with all the dinosaurs?


The world's first Creationist museum - dedicated to the idea that the creation of the world, as told in Genesis, is factually correct - will soon open. Stephen Bates is given a sneak preview and asks: was there really a tyrannosaurus in the Bible?

Monday November 13, 2006
The Guardian


The Creation Museum's motto: Prepare to Believe.

Just off the interstate, a couple of junctions down from Cincinnati's international airport, over the state line in rural Kentucky, the finishing touches are being put to an impressive-looking building. When it is finished and open to the public next summer, it may, quite possibly, be one of the weirdest museums in the world.
The Creation Museum - motto: "Prepare to Believe!" - will be the first institution in the world whose contents, with the exception of a few turtles swimming in an artificial pond, are entirely fake. It is dedicated to the proposition that the account of the creation of the world in the Book of Genesis is completely correct, and its mission is to convince visitors through a mixture of animatronic models, tableaux and a strangely Disneyfied version of the Bible story.

Its designer, Patrick Marsh, used to work at Universal Studios in Los Angeles and then in Japan before he saw the light, opened his soul to Jesus, and was born anew. "The Bible is the only thing that gives you the full picture," he says. "Other religions don't have that, and, as for scientists, so much of what they believe is pretty fuzzy about life and its origins ... oh, this is a great place to work, I will tell you that."
So this is the Bible story, as truth. Apart from the dinosaurs, that is. As you stand in the museum's lobby - the only part of the building approaching completion - you are surrounded by life-size dinosaur models, some moving and occasionally grunting as they chew the cud.Beside the turtle pool, two animatronic, brown-complexioned children, demurely dressed in Hiawatha-like buckskin, gravely flutter with movement. Behind them lurk two small Tyrannosaurus Rexes. This scene is meant to date from before the Fall of Man and, apparently, dinosaurs.

Theological scholars may have noticed that there are, in fact, no dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible - and here lies the Creationists' first problem. Since there are undoubtedly dinosaur bones and since, according to the Creationists, the world is only 6,000 years old - a calculation devised by the 17th-century Bishop Ussher, counting back through the Bible to the Creation, a formula more or less accepted by the museum - dinosaurs must be shoehorned in somewhere, along with the Babylonians, Egyptians and the other ancient civilisations. As for the Grand Canyon - no problem: that was, of course, created in a few months by Noah's Flood.

But what, I ask wonderingly, about those fossilised remains of early man-like creatures? Marsh knows all about that: "There are no such things. Humans are basically as you see them today. Those skeletons they've found, what's the word? ... they could have been deformed, diseased or something. I've seen people like that running round the streets of New York."

Nothing can dent the designer's zeal as he leads us gingerly through the labyrinth of rooms still under construction, with bits of wood, and the odd dinosaur head occasionally blocking our path. The light of keenness shines from the faces of the workers, too, as they chisel out mountain sides and work out where to put the Tree of Life. They greet us cheerily as we pass.

They, too, know they are doing the Lord's Work, and each has signed a contract saying they believe in the Seven Days of Creation theory. Mornings on this construction site start with prayer meetings. Don't think for a minute that this is some sort of crazy little hole-in-the-corner project. The museum is costing $25m (£13m) and all but $3m has already been raised from private donations. It is strategically placed, too - not in the middle of nowhere, but within six hours' drive of two-thirds of the entire population of the US. And, as we know, up to 50 million of them do believe that the Bible's account of Creation is literally true.

We pass the site where one day an animatronic Adam will squat beside the Tree. With this commitment to authenticity, I find myself asking what they are doing about the fig leaf. Marsh considers this gravely and replies: "He is appropriately positioned, so he can be modest. There will be a lamb or something there next to him. We are very careful about that: some of our donors are scared to death about nudity."

The same will go for the scene where Eve is created out of Adam's rib, apparently, and parents will be warned that little children may be scared by the authenticity of some of the scenes. "Absolutely, because we are in there, being faithful to scripture."

A little licence is allowed, however, where the Bible falls down on the details. The depiction of a wall-sized section of Noah's Ark is based, not on the traditional picture of a flat-decked boat, but one designed by navy engineers with a keel and bows, which might, at least, have floated. "You can surmise," says Marsh. When you get inside, there's nifty computer software telling you how they fitted all the animals in, too.

The museum's research scientist, Dr Jason Lisle, has a PhD in astrophysics from the University of Colorado at Boulder. He realised he was a Christian while he was an undergraduate, but didn't spread it around: "People get very emotional about the issue. I don't believe we should ever be obnoxious about our faith. I just kept quiet." And how did he pass the exams? "I never lied, but if I was asked a question about the age of the universe, I answered from my knowledge of the topic, not my beliefs."

The museum's planetarium is his pride and joy. Lisle writes the commentary. "Amazing! God has a name for each star," it says, and: "The sun's distance from earth did not happen by chance." There is much more in this vein, but not what God thought he was doing when he made Pluto, or why.

Now, we are taken to meet Ken Ham, the museum's director and its inspiration. Ham is an Australian, a former science teacher - though not, he is at pains to say, a scientist - and he has been working on the project for much of the past 20 years since moving to the US. "You'd never find something like this in Australia," he says. "If you want to get the message out, it has to be here."

Reassuringly, on the wall outside his office, are three framed photographs of the former Australian cricket captain Steve Waugh - "cricket's never really caught on over here" - and inside, on his bookshelves, is a wooden model of a platypus. On top of the shelves is an array of fluffy poodle toys, as well as cuddly dinosaurs. "Poodles are degenerate mutants of dogs. I say that in my lectures and people present them to me as gifts."

Ham is a large man with a chin-hugging beard like an Old Testament prophet or an old-fashioned preacher, both of which he is, in a way. He lectures all over the world and spent a month in Britain earlier in the summer spreading the message to the faithful in parish halls from Cornwall to Scotland. "We want to try to convince people using observational science," he says. "It's done very gently but forthrightly. We give both sides, which is more than the Science Museum in London does."

This is true in that the Creation museum does include an animatronic evolutionist archaeologist, sitting beside a creationist, at one point. But there's no space for an animatronic Charles Darwin to fit alongside King David and his harp.

On the shelf behind Ham's desk lie several surprising books, including Richard Dawkins' latest. "I've skipped through it. The thing is, Dawkins does not have infinite knowledge or understanding himself. He's got a position, too, it's just a different one from ours. The Bible makes sense and is overwhelmingly confirmed by observable science. It does not confirm the belief in evolution."

But if you believe in the Bible, why do you need to seek scientific credibility, and why are Creationists so reluctant to put their theories to peer review, I ask?

"I would give the same answer as Dawkins. He believes there is no God and nothing you could say would convince him otherwise. You are dealing with an origins issue. If you don't have the information, you cannot be sure. Nothing contradicts the Bible's account of the origins."

We wander across to the bookshop, which, far from being another biblical epic, is done up like a medieval castle, framed with heraldic shields and filled with images of dragons - dragons, you see, being what dinosaurs became. It is full of books with titles such as Infallible Proofs, The Lie, The Great Dinosaur Mystery Solved and even a DVD entitled Arguments Creationists Should Not Use. As we finish the tour, Ham tells us about the museum's website, AnswersInGenesis.org. They are expecting 300,000 visitors a year. "You've not seen anything yet," he says with a smile.



it brings to mind River, just before the hair incident doesn't it?


Bible's broken. Contradictions,
faulty logistics--it doesn't make
sense...
So we'll integrate non-progressional
evolution theory with God's creation
of Eden -- eleven inherent metaphoric
parallels already there... eleven,
important number, prime number, one
goes into the house of eleven eleven
times but always comes out one--
Noah's Ark is a problem--
We'll have to call it early quantum
state phenomenon-- Only way to fit
five-thousand species of mammal on
the same boat.




And it kinda confirms that argument from the original Clerks, that the contractors building the second Deathstar weren't innocent victims - even the guys installing the loos are part of the club.

Ah well.




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Monday, November 13, 2006 2:16 AM

MRT


You know I'm going to have to print that and read it on the way home!

Ta Seryn! hope the Dino's are still smiling up north

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Monday, November 13, 2006 2:23 AM

BABYWITHTHEPOWER


That was, in a word, beautiful. Awesome way to bring up and validate the argument from Clerks too. Gold star for you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

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Monday, November 13, 2006 2:36 AM

SERYN


Its my Geek duty.

Mr T - Oh, yes, they're still smiling big toofy grins, smug in the knowledge that they can prove they actually existed.



Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Monday, November 13, 2006 2:58 AM

MRT


I don't exist - you can't see me!


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Monday, November 13, 2006 3:22 AM

EVILBUNGLE


it's good that they sent a reporter who was openminded and willing to hear the message, can't beat an open report that starts with "everything there is false"

==========================================
Vote Day 1st December 2006 http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html
Together we will triumph.

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:11 AM

SIMONWHO


>> "...some of our donors are scared to death about nudity."

Do they shower blindfold?

>> A little licence is allowed, however, where the Bible falls down on the details. The depiction of a wall-sized section of Noah's Ark is based, not on the traditional picture of a flat-decked boat, but one designed by navy engineers with a keel and bows, which might, at least, have floated. "You can surmise," says Marsh. When you get inside, there's nifty computer software telling you how they fitted all the animals in, too.

Ah, so they're fixing the Bible. Good for them. Could somebody double check they've got all 1,500,000 known species on the ark? Ta.

>> if I was asked a question about the age of the universe, I answered from my knowledge of the topic, not my beliefs."

... he said without irony.

>> The Bible makes sense and is overwhelmingly confirmed by observable science. It does not confirm the belief in evolution.

It matches what primitive men could observe a few thousand years ago but now we can see so much more, we've explored so much further, it is plainly full of shit.

>> "I would give the same answer as Dawkins. He believes there is no God and nothing you could say would convince him otherwise. You are dealing with an origins issue. If you don't have the information, you cannot be sure. Nothing contradicts the Bible's account of the origins."

Or to put it another way: "I don't have to read alternative views because I'm never going to believe them. And by an amazing coincidence, nothing I've read contradicts the Bible."

Sometimes there's not enough mocking laughter in the world.

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:55 AM

SERYN


Yes, that is a good point that he gets the word fake in there before detailing the museums aims - its a sneaky way to get the reader thinking the way he wants, but theres also the fact that there isn't a single 'authentic' item in there.

If they had a peice of the ark, or you know, anything, in there relating to the origins of the bible story, the reporter might have given it a chance.

If they'd approached it with any sense of sanity, they'd have focused more on why people belive what they believe, where it came from, who wrote the thing, how did they intend it to be interpreted, why is it so convincing (to them at least) they would have earned themselves more respect - honestly, as someone who detests organised religion i could have done more to sell fundamental biblicism or whatever its called to the great unwashed than they could with their dino and computers based kiddie entrapment. But as its basically 'Bible! The Ride!' With Real animatronic fake things! And no nudity! (yep sireee - nothing so dirty and depraved as a real human being in this here wholesome fairground attraction!)

Really, it has all the initial credibility of one of those mermaid things they used to sew together and put on display in travelling circuses.

Oooooh, yet another neat seague into a scene from Firefly.

Really, Firefly has the answers to everything. I think, based on the visual companion, we should make Browncoatism a religion and build a pile of crap dedicated to it.

Sorry sweetie, right after 'item in there.' it stopped being a reply to you and just decended into a rant.

My profuse apologies.

Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:20 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


PT Barnum knew the way long ago, he said "Always give the sucker what he wants." Or something like that. That's how he made money, convincing people he had put together the greatest show, the greatest entertainment mankind would ever see. It was the perfect con. It was so perfect that people wouldn't leave his tents and in order to get the people out and others in he came up with an ingenius plan by putting up a sign that said This way to the great egress. which was just another name for exit. People fell for it.

I make the comparisons because this sounds like a scam to me. Oh I'm sure they believe they're doing God's work but if they ever READ the Bible they'd remember that one part where Jesus kicked ass when they turned the Temple into a supermarket. In other words Jesus does not like people making money off of his teachings and faith, yet all I ever read from these Bible thumpers is give me, send me, for only a small donation you can find yourself up front in the Kingdom of Heaven (and I can afford that Ferrari and those hookers I've been wanting)

As a Catholic (don't call me christian tanka) this offends me, my faith, and my belief. In my youth I went to Catholic school and Church and I can assure you Creationism was never shoved down out throats, believing in Evolution never made you a follower of the devil, and the only people who had that kind of money were the snooty rich kids that shoved the fact in your face.

Re-found their faith? Is that like re-gifting? Sounds more like people who never made it big in their fields and found a demographic that they could exploit. Of course their were fuckin' dinosaurs, of course there was a progression of evolution, the Verse can be explained. You take the stories in the Bible as metaphors, not reality, and you can be a believer in science and religion, but until nutjobs (from both sides thank you very much) admit there's a place for both we're going to be seeing a lot of these quasi faith wars. *sigh* Can you tell people like them piss me off a little?

Makes me ashamed to be Catholic.

If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:39 PM

ZISKER


Quote:

Originally posted by Misstressahara:

In my youth I went to Catholic school and Church and I can assure you Creationism was never shoved down out throats



Ah, reminds me of my youth when I was stoned by the Catholic children while they screamed "Heathen! Heretic!" because I didn't worship the Crucifix. I guess every church has its quirks.

While I don't believe in Creationism (I'm not even Christian anymore), I would be willing to part with ten dollars just to see the animatronics. Realistic enough to scare the kiddies? I'm there!

If you can't do something smart, do something right.

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Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:54 AM

SERYN


Nah, you shouldn't be ashamed to be catholic - i'm sure the way you live your life is in the average to great range.

With good people faith enhances and guides their goodness, and i've seen nothing in your post to suggest you're the devil incarnate, so...

I think the point of my posting was concern for the (as someone on this site called them) Sheeple. Those to stupid to make up their own minds, who have to be led around by the nose and told what to do. This museum is aimed specifically at them, no self aware intelligent person is going to be taken in by animatronics in anything other than a 'Hey, funky animatronics!' way, it trying to convince others of what to believe, using cheap (well, expensively tacky) tricks and attention grabbing fluff.

I mean i'd say shove the stupid people, and just go back to arguing that we should outlaw safety lables on electric appliances, but then last time a lot of stupid people had the same idea they re-elected Bush.

My principle objection is the they are presenting this idea as fact. I work in a museum that covers natural history, archelogy, ethnology etc, and through out the museum information boards are peppered with phrases such as 'scientists believe...' 'It's possible that...' 'we don't yet know why ___, but we think....' and most importantly 'what do you think...' Basically it presents the articles, the evidence, and tells what others think and leaves you to make up your own mind. I really doubt, given that report, that this is the case here.

As for being stoned by small catholic's, i'll give you an an argument i last used in another thread - people, if they are inclined to insult and injure another human being, if they feel that doing this will comfort them or enhance their sense of belonging to a group, will find any 'reason' they can to do so - those particular children, ill-bred as they no doubt were, would have thrown stones at you for having a big nose, or just having socks of an odd length - hell if they were so inclined they'd pick on you for having blood running in your veins, willfully oblivious to the fact that so do they - just think of all those kids, taught in the same school, attending the same church who wern't throwing stones at you.

Plus, kids are dickheads who don't know any better, which is why we don't lock them up until they're 16.

As a matter of interest, Misstressahara - why don't you wish to be referred to as christian? I was always given to understand that catholicism was a branch of christianity

Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:38 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by EvilBungle:
it's good that they sent a reporter who was openminded and willing to hear the message, can't beat an open report that starts with "everything there is false"

Because the Creationist as science argument deserves to be given open forum as a scientific subject.

Oh no wait it doesn't, it deserves to be ridiculed as the mad ravings of a bunch of fanatics that can't handle the fact that there hasn't been a good inquisition in quite some time.

I see no reason to treat open mindedly the ravings of those so closed minded and thick Skulled that if one were to drop the big book of scientific discovery on them from orbit they wouldn't even feel it.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, November 14, 2006 3:22 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"They are expecting 300,000 visitors a year."

For how many years?

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Tuesday, November 14, 2006 6:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Speaking of Museum craziness..

Apparently someone roughed up a wax copy of the POTUS recently...
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Nov-12-Sun-2006/news/10784
925.html


I wonder what kind of market there is in punching bags and dartboards, hmmm..

Too bad the HSC/SS nazis would be all over it.

-Frem

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