REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Bush-Whacked by I.S.G.

POSTED BY: OLDENGLANDDRY
UPDATED: Saturday, December 16, 2006 12:05
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1620
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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 9:23 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Even the Neo-Cons are saying lets get out of Iraq.
Is anyone surprised?
Apart from the obvious two.

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 11:06 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Alas, they don't say get out.

just found this quote:
Quote:


"By the first quarter of 2008, subject to unexpected developments in the security situation on the ground, all combat brigades not necessary for force protection could be out of Iraq."



all combat brigades not necessary for force protection... how many is that? could be 100 %.
" could be out" or not.

any besides, that's 1st quarter of 2008. because there's an election coming in Nov. 2008. and in the first quarter of 2008,during the campaing, they can say, " we're not quite up to timetable. But we'll be out RIGHT AFTER the election."

" smellin' a lot of if comin' offa this plan."

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 11:35 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
subject to unexpected developments in the security situation on the ground

That could mean anything. Anything.

Tired of being played Chrisisall

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 2:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
subject to unexpected developments in the security situation on the ground

That could mean anything. Anything.

Tired of being played Chrisisall



I'd like to offer that we should be sending more troops, not cutting and running. We saw what a decades worth of diplomacy and U.N. sanctions got us - no where. In fact, it was worse than no where, as Saddam and the U.N. were busy playing footsie under the table and subverting the very sanctions which were suppose to be imposed on Iraq and forcing Saddam to comply. That only yielded the biggest scandal in U.N. history, the Food for Oil scam.

We know what DOESN'T work. No sense in falling back and trying that all over again.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 2:51 PM

CHRISISALL


Time to face facts, there's a civil war brewing over there (and we brought the pot); it's going to happen, do you really want our troops in the middle of that?
I don't.
Sounds cold, but either we use 100% of our resources dividing up the country (yeah, like that would work in the long run), or we let 'em do what they're gonna without our peeps there as extra cannon fodder.

Time to say, "Sorry, we failed in finishing it; we got rid of Saddam for ya and helped set up some kind of government, at least, best of luck."

What would be your preferred precise handling of the sit, AU? And none of this vague 'stay the course' rhetoric, please. Be specific- you may learn me something here, who knows.

Open to NEW ideas Chrisisall

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 5:11 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


To actually read the Iraq Study Group report, try here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/06_12_06_iraq_study_group_r
eport.pdf


Then discuss.

Edited to add:

I would hope that people reading this document would take it as a whole, rather than clipping sound-bites out of context to support their POV. I would bet, however, that this won't be the case.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 5:40 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


I would hope that people reading this document would take it as a whole, rather than clipping sound-bites out of context to support their POV. I would bet, however, that this won't be the case.


Well, thanks for providing the link, Geez, I am absorbing it with fascination. It seems all-encompasing at a flash-read (a longer time to read it slowly will come in a few days), and I am genuinely surprised at it's (seeming) lack of partisan viewpoint. It seems to get at all that's wrong over there, but also seems to say that we are there to stay, permanently, if we are to make things right. Implementing all of the recommendations would make Iraq practically our sister-country, but then a permanent American ally in the ME in addition to Israel would be highly desireable by the PNAC, so I don't, at first glance, know exactly how to take it. My knee-jerk instinct says it's official, therefore suspect. But I admire how it slams what is wrong so directly.

Thanks again, I'll be back (not in the Terminator way) when I can discuss this more intelligently.

Silly silly British Chrisisall

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 7:39 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'd like to offer that we should be sending more troops, not cutting and running...



"cutting and running"??? Are you kidding? Serious foreign policy requires a little more consideration than silly sound bites. I know these little loaded quips are the hallmark of the Bush administration, but they're insulting and tiresome. They basically assume that US voters are too stupid to comprehend anything more complicated than a three word phrase. They're also cynically chosen to evoke macho emotional responses, essentially insinuating that anything other than pigheaded force is cowardly.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 9:12 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


Edited to add:

I would hope that people reading this document would take it as a whole, rather than clipping sound-bites out of context to support their POV. I would bet, however, that this won't be the case.




"Ar you talkin' to ME?"
'Cuz in fact, I got the quote from a conservative editorial page. I can't certify that it came from the report. But The language sounds right, and is consistent with what the ISG has leaked for the last 2 weeks.

Do you, in fact, dispute the accuracy of the quote?
And in fact, if the quote is accurate, sound bite or not, doesn't it provide a short blunt summary of what the ISG reccommends?

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 9:24 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


I'd like to offer that we should be sending more troops, not cutting and running.



If GWB et al actually believe that this is the great clash of civilizations that they were blathering about a while back, or that this is as big a threat to freedom and Western civilization , not to mention the USA,as Hitler, we should declare a formal state of War, institute a draft, send not 140,000 men or even 1 or 2 million, but every 19 year old in the nation over there, then apply overwhelming force, commit every national resource, increase taxes to pay for it, and make everybody in the nation sacrifice to win it, much like we did in WW II. Maybe we should ask the Board of Directors of HAlliburton to voluntarily serve for $ 1.00 a year, as many executives did during WW II.

But they don't mean it, and they ain't serious. SO, yeah, we oughtta cut and run. We've already spent too much-- another life, another dollar wasted, is too high a price.

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Thursday, December 7, 2006 4:20 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

"Ar you talkin' to ME?"




Not really.

Just reading the report's Executive Summary, I found plenty of short clips which, if taken out of context, could support most any position. It seems to be traditional in RWD for many of us to do this. I was hoping to get folk to read the whole document and form opinions, rather than just searching for validation of their pre-conceived notions.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 7, 2006 6:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I see two options.

Make it a US State or protectorate.
(and i'll leave the feasibility of that one to your imagination)

Get the hell out.

Those are the only two logical, reasonable options.

-Frem

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Thursday, December 7, 2006 6:59 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

"Ar you talkin' to ME?"




Not really.

Just reading the report's Executive Summary, I found plenty of short clips which, if taken out of context, could support most any position. It seems to be traditional in RWD for many of us to do this. I was hoping to get folk to read the whole document and form opinions, rather than just searching for validation of their pre-conceived notions.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



I formed my pre conceived notions in 2003, before the invasion. I read a lot of stuff then, and was inpressed by Shinseki, who said he was gonna need 450,000 to 500,000 men to pacify the place, and by a comentator, ya know, one of those " liberal" media types, who said we would win the war but lose the peace. Sadly, what has happened since has proved those 2 opinions to be fact, in general terms.

I don't claim to be real smart, but I was smart enough to recognize this bad idea way back then.

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Thursday, December 7, 2006 2:58 PM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
We know what DOESN'T work. No sense in falling back and trying that all over again.


Exactly.

And, please, don't get me started on United Nations. The only thing I can recall the U.N. ever doing right in its entire, sorry, 61 year history -- was its (probably reluctant) recognizion of Israel. The U.S. should cut off all of the funding we're tossing into their coffers, and kick their sorry posteriors out of New York. (Send them to somewhere like the Hague.) They're less than useless, appeasers of terror who actually make the League of Nations look competent by comparison.

Speaking of appeasement, I heard Sean Hannity quote Winston Churchill on his show yesterday. I've been a big fan of Churchill's and studied him for decades, but I honestly can't remember if I'd heard this quote before.

"Appeasement is the policy of a man that feeds the alligatior, hoping that the alligator will eat him last."

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Thursday, December 7, 2006 4:19 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Now here we have Slick trying to claim the moral high ground saying - read it first before you shoot off an opinion. And the ppl nominally on his side have completely ignored his plea. I wonder if he'll have anyting nasty to say about that, or will he let it pass?

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Thursday, December 7, 2006 5:00 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Now here we have Slick trying to claim the moral high ground saying - read it first before you shoot off an opinion. And the ppl nominally on his side have completely ignored his plea. I wonder if he'll have anyting nasty to say about that, or will he let it pass?



I'd like everyone to read the whole thing and address it on its own merits. I'm about half-way through a detailed look and there are a lot of issues and recommendations to absorb. I'll probably end up printing the whole thing out, since I'm old enough to be a marginal notes kind'a guy, and like to mark up the paper copy.

I'm not surprised that there are folks on both sides of the issue who will jump in willy-nilly with their opinions, or their assertions that the report supports their POV. Who wants to bother with reading 100+ pages of governmenteze when you have already settled on your position? And there's plenty of context-free soundbites in the report to back up most any version.

My question is - Does the ISG report offer a possible pathway to a reasonably stable and independent Iraq? The ISG admits that this is a difficult task. Is it even attainable?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, December 8, 2006 8:08 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


just saw another of those " sound bites".

I saw references to it in 3 different editorial columns, one lefty, and one conservative. SInce I
didn"t
read the entire report, I can't prove it's in there, but I'll wager it is.
After the big troop reductions, by 1st quarter 2008, if everything goes as they suggest, there will be a remaining force of 70,000 men in Iraq, for however long.

SO we're gonna spend 18 months of continuing combat, and at the end of it, we will have reduced the American presence by a whopping 50 %.

This ain't making me happy.


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Friday, December 8, 2006 10:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I haven't read the report, nor have I hear many clips from it. From what LITLLE I've heard, it doesn't sound do-able. Yeah, sure it would be nice to reconstruct Iraq and make their internal security/ armed forces pick up the load but...

Furthermore, some of the things I think NEED to be done have to be done very, very, quietly. Secretively in fact. Talking to Iran & Syria who are weighing in on one side, and Saudi Arabia & and Egypt who are preparing to weigh in on the other, for instance. Given our "kiss of death" reputation in the Middle East, any indications that ANY of these nations are cooperating with us could destabilize the less stable governments and bring others down a couple of notches... nothing that any government in the region wants to risk. So whatever deals we make have to be made while we're all loudly proclaiming that we're not talking to each other, pretty much the Iran hostage negotiations were done.

If I were the Study Group, I would have prepared two reports: a public report (like the one we got) and a private report. Who is closest to attaining leadership within the three major Iraqi groups. Who we can approach and support through intermdiaries. Which intermediaries can we use. What do we do to keep them from trying to grab everything.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, December 8, 2006 11:24 AM

CARTOON


I heard some ex-servicemen (who were in Iraq) talking on the radio today, and they seemed to agree that the biggest problem with the Iraqi army (as it now stands) is that Iraqi's don't see themselves as "Iraqi's" -- but as Sunnis, Shiite, or Kurds, -- then by family clans.

If this is correct, they either need to adopt a sense of national unity or divide the country. As the later option is quite drastic, the former would certainly be preferable. Although, as to how it might be achieved, I have to say I'm at a loss.

The second thing I gleaned from listening to these servicemen was that when Iraqi military units fought under the direct command of an American unit (Iraqi units which had been specifically trained by and worked with American units), they conducted themselves with a high degree of precision and professionalism. However, those units which had not been specifically trained by and worked with American units, were very unprofessional and less than adequate.

They also mentioned that unlike the American military (and I would guess most militaries from industrial nations), whenever someone in the current Iraqi military decides they no longer want to serve, they just pack up and leave.

That's no way to run a military.

Like others here, I have not read the report (haven't the time), but one thing about it disturbs me -- the total lack of people on the commission with security or military expertise.

That's like asking a bunch of people who've never been in a kitchen to find a recipe that will work best for your dinner.

If that's the case, whoever picked these people needs to have their head examined.


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Friday, December 8, 2006 12:53 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Even the Neo-Cons are saying lets get out of Iraq.
Is anyone surprised?
Apart from the obvious two.




Damn, read the title of this thread, and thought I was going to have to send Tony Soprano a Christmas card......








" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12


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Friday, December 8, 2006 1:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I heard some ex-servicemen (who were in Iraq) talking on the radio today, and they seemed to agree that the biggest problem with the Iraqi army (as it now stands) is that Iraqi's don't see themselves as "Iraqi's" -- but as Sunnis, Shiite, or Kurds, -- then by family clans. If this is correct, they either need to adopt a sense of national unity or divide the country. As the later option is quite drastic, the former would certainly be preferable. Although, as to how it might be achieved, I have to say I'm at a loss.
I think this is the potentially insurmountable stumbling block. In addition, the culture is big on vengeance. And since nobody can be counted on to act in an even-handed fashion, that makes the Sunnis very reluctant to live under Shia internal security forces and vice versa. Splitting up revenue is another sore point.

There is ONE way to control the situation: Find several high-ranking people who are acting in partisan fashion and hang their heads at the city gates. Replace them. Repeat as necessary. Nothing beats making gory example of generals and ministers.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, December 8, 2006 2:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

But they don't mean it, and they ain't serious. SO, yeah, we oughtta cut and run. We've already spent too much-- another life, another dollar wasted, is too high a price.



Sadly, I can't disagree with that comment. They don't seem to be doing the very things which are necessary to win this war, then we've got no business being there at all. For once, and maybe the last time, I agree with John McCain. Lord help me if that ever happens again.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 8, 2006 2:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Speaking of appeasement, I heard Sean Hannity quote Winston Churchill on his show yesterday. I've been a big fan of Churchill's and studied him for decades, but I honestly can't remember if I'd heard this quote before.

"Appeasement is the policy of a man that feeds the alligatior, hoping that the alligator will eat him last."



Winston Churchill is among my 3 favorite human beings of the 20th century. Possibly of all time.

And no, Jesus doesn't make my top 5, in case anyone was wondering.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 8, 2006 3:07 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


I'm going to paraphrase here, but you get the point, I hope:

"It's nice to see that they've formed a study group, but the test was three years ago." - Jon Stewart

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Friday, December 8, 2006 9:51 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

But they don't mean it, and they ain't serious. SO, yeah, we oughtta cut and run. We've already spent too much-- another life, another dollar wasted, is too high a price.



Sadly, I can't disagree with that comment. They don't seem to be doing the very things which are necessary to win this war, then we've got no business being there at all.



Considering that you and I have been on different sides of several threads, and that " certain words have been exchanged ( also certain bullets.)", I'm honored, respected enemy.
If we're in agreement, the situation over there must be REALLY screwed up.

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Saturday, December 16, 2006 12:05 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Iraq Study Group demands 50,000 more troops sent to Iraq. It's a pathological lie that ISG wants to pull troops out of Iraq.
Quote:


"We believe it would be wrong for the United States to abandon the country through a precipitate withdrawal of troops and support."
-ISG page 37

"Further, adding more American troops could conceivably worsen those aspects of the security problem that are fed by the view that the U.S. presence is intended to be a long-term “occupation.” We could, however, support a short-term redeployment or surge of American combat forces to stabilize Baghdad, or to speed up the training and equipping mission, if the U.S. commander in Iraq determines that such steps would be effective. We also rejected the immediate withdrawal of our troops, because we believe that so much is at stake. On September 7, 2006, General James Jones, our NATO commander, called for more troops in Afghanistan, where U.S. and NATO forces are fighting a resurgence of al Qaeda and Taliban forces. The United States should respond positively to that request, and be prepared for other security contingencies, including those in Iran and North Korea."
-ISG page 73

"There is significant underreporting of the violence in Iraq. The standard for recording attacks acts as a filter to keep events out of reports and databases. A murder of an Iraqi is not necessarily counted as an attack. If we cannot determine the source of a sectarian attack, that assault does not make it into the database. A roadside bomb or a rocket or mortar attack that doesn’t hurt U.S. personnel doesn’t count. For example, on one day in July 2006 there were 93 attacks or significant acts of violence reported. Yet a careful review of the reports for that single day brought to light 1,100 acts of violence."
ISG page 94

RECOMMENDATION 41: "The United States must make it clear to the Iraqi government that the United States could carry out its plans, including planned redeployments, even if Iraq does not implement its planned changes. America’s other security needs and the future of our military cannot be made hostage to the actions or inactions of the Iraqi government."
-ISG page 75

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/06_12_06_iraq_study_group_r
eport.pdf




Iraq Study Group director James Baker is the trial lawyer defending Carlyle Group members in Saudi Arabia, to deny 9/11 terror victims financial compensation, since most of the alleged 9/11 hijackers were citizens of Saudi Arabia. Carlyle Group is owned by the Bushes, Queen of England, Saudi royals and the Bin Ladens.
www.september11classaction.com

Baker is the individual to told Saddam to invade Kuwait in the first place:

Quote:


US Ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie: "I have direct instructions from President Bush to improve our relations with Iraq. We have considerable sympathy for your quest for higher oil prices, the immediate cause of your confrontation with Kuwait. We can see that you have deployed massive numbers of troops in the south. Normally that would be none of our business."
President Saddam Hussein: "As you know, for years now I have made every effort to reach a settlement on our dispute with Kuwait. There is to be a meeting in two days; I am prepared to give negotiations only this one more brief chance. (pause) When we (the Iraqis) meet (with the Kuwaitis) and we see there is hope, then nothing will happen. But if we are unable to find a solution, then it will be natural that Iraq will not accept death."
Glaspie: "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."
President Saddam Hussein: (smiles)
-Videotaped meeting between Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and US Ambassador April Glaspie, July 25, 1990 (Eight days before the August 2, 1990 Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait)

Journalist 2: "You knew Saddam was going to invade (Kuwait) but you didn't warn him not to. You didn't tell him America would defend Kuwait. You told him the opposite - that America was not associated with Kuwait."
Journalist 1: "You encouraged this aggression - his invasion. What were you thinking?"
US Ambassador Glaspie: "Obviously, I didn't think, and nobody else did, that the Iraqis were going to take all of Kuwait."
-US Embassy, Baghdad, Iraq, September 2, 1990

"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy."
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissinger Jewish Knight of the British Empire (whose BNL Bank was raided by FBI for arming Iraq), Bush Jr's choice for 9/11 Commission Coverup, quoted by Monika Jensen-Stevenson, Kiss the Boys Goodbye, Dutton, 1990, Page 97, citing The Final Days, Woodward and Bernstein (Simon & Schuster, 1976)


ISG's Eagleberger is employed by Kissinger Associates, who also ran BNL's supply line via Israel for billions of dollars in illegal weapons given to Iraq, disguised as "agricultural subsidies".

Iraq Study Group director Lee Hamilton ran Bush Jr's coverup of Bushes' treasonous False-Flag terrorist attacks against USA on 9/11/2001.
www.piratenews.org/911con.html

Bush Jr's new Secretary of War is fired CIA director Robert Gates, who was USAma Bin Laden's boss. Gates is the founder of AllCIAduh, which is translated as "The Database" of CIA employees, and is also translated as "toilet".

The British Empire's purpose of the 15-year Iraq War was always to divide and conquer Jewish Babylon into 3 nations, to shut off the oil supply and raise prices for British Petroleum, owned by the British royal family. BP now owns all the oil in Alaska USA, and exports it to Communist China, Japan and Mexico, or pumps it back into the ground, or shuts down its Alaskan Oil Pipeline, to raise prices. All Iraqi oil is now pipelined to Israel.


Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

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Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
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.1044556

www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
www.piratenews.org


Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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