The best argument against democracy is a five m..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Bush's speech...

POSTED BY: KHYRON
UPDATED: Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:04
SHORT URL:
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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:59 AM

KHYRON


... does anybody give a shit anymore?

For those of you who missed it, here's the summary of it: "Give war a chance".

Everything else was filler.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:08 AM

MAVOURNEEN


I live about 15 miles from the Capitol. I have no interest in seeing him on tv.

Meh...I watched Dirty Jobs instead.

I predicted his speech would be the same caca he's been spouting for years. And I see this AM that it was exactly that.
A tax cut if you buy insurance? Woo hoo.


Wake me up if someone interesting comes along.



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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:40 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by Mavourneen:
I live about 15 miles from the Capitol. I have no interest in seeing him on tv.

Meh...I watched Dirty Jobs instead.

I predicted his speech would be the same caca he's been spouting for years. And I see this AM that it was exactly that.
A tax cut if you buy insurance? Woo hoo.

Wake me up if someone interesting comes along.



I'm Canadian and I somehow managed to find the time to watch.
Democracy is at it's best when fueled by an informed electorate.

Mike Rowe in 2008!

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:43 AM

PENGUIN


*puts a smack-down on the rabble rouser*







King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 5:15 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 5:36 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I'm Canadian and I somehow managed to find the time to watch.
Democracy is at it's best when fueled by an informed electorate.


I couldn't agree more.

You're a credit to your country, and a shame to those in ours who complain about everything, but don't take the time to actually become informed about the subjects over which they continually whine.

If the electorate was ever actually, truly informed, who knows how different the results of last November's elections would have been. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you, and actually takes the time to become informed before making a statement (or voting).

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 5:43 AM

MAVOURNEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I'm Canadian and I somehow managed to find the time to watch.
Democracy is at it's best when fueled by an informed electorate.

Mike Rowe in 2008!



I am informed.
I know what is best for me and mine.
I didn't vote for him.

Check out the 5th post in this thread from me from September. Mike Rowe for President!

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=23789



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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:37 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
For those of you who missed it, here's the summary of it: "Give war a chance".

Everything else was filler.


There was a lot of filler. I liked the part where he recognizes the guests...and thats filler.

I also saw the first real Republican health care plan...I've been waiting 7 years and yes, I am liberal on health care. I make sixty grand/year and can't afford health insurance, that tells me there is a problem. But under this new plan I can and it costs me less in taxes. How bout that? National Health Care would cover me, but I'd pay more in taxes.

The war bit was more then just 'give war a chance'. Basically he said that 'this is what we're going to do, the decision has been made, so knock off the defeatist crap and give the plan a chance to work before you go out and trash it.' Thats a valid message. After all, suppose the daily news led every day with stories of how the US's plan to invade France in June of 1944, a surge if you will, was doomed to failure. Or better yet, why commit more troops to the war against Germany after they broke our lines in December of 1944? Should we not withdraw and seek a peaceful outcome with Hitler?

We don't need Monday morning quarterbacks and armchair generals or 535 would-be Commanders-in-Chief second guessing a plan even before the President formally presents it to the country. Bad for morale...or good for it if your a terrorist.

Then again some folk on this board have said, outright, that they want a military defeat. I'm sure those traitors have a few people in Congress that agree with them.

H

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:40 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I'm Canadian and I somehow managed to find the time to watch.
Democracy is at it's best when fueled by an informed electorate.


I couldn't agree more.

You're a credit to your country, and a shame to those in ours who complain about everything, but don't take the time to actually become informed about the subjects over which they continually whine.

If the electorate was ever actually, truly informed, who knows how different the results of last November's elections would have been. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you, and actually takes the time to become informed before making a statement (or voting).



So, people are only "turly informed" if they agree with you?

I agree though, if people were better informed, November's elections may well have been different. We may have gotten rid of even more of the "do nothing congress". I imagine if people were better informed, the last couple Presidential elections would have been quite different as well. I think it's safe to say if everyone knew then what we know now, Dubya wouldn't be let anywhere near the White House.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:49 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by Mavourneen:

I am informed.
I know what is best for me and mine.
I didn't vote for him.

Check out the 5th post in this thread from me from September. Mike Rowe for President!

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=23789



That is too funny about Mike Rowe, though I tend to agree with Dream about him being a front man.

My point was that it was a State of the Union speech, not just another Bush speech. If one is for or against Bush, Democrat, Republican or Libertarian, it still behooves one to keep up with the present state and where it is heading, IMHO.

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:35 AM

MAVOURNEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
That is too funny about Mike Rowe, though I tend to agree with Dream about him being a front man.



When you get right down to it...aren't they all just Front Men?

And I agree, an informed electorate is crucial.

Take my coworker, for instance, at whom I am looking at right now. Nice woman, 39 years old, woefully uninformed, and has NEVER voted in her life. Isn't that pitiful?


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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Bush's speech...


BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
*choke*gasp*snork*
AHHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

Glory be, that was AWFUL, normally i dun think much of censorship, but that horror mighta fallen under an indecency clause!

Barring the fact that any FIFTH grader could have done a better job delivering it, the content was so abhorrent as to be downright wince-worthy - don't believe me ? watch Condi trying to keep a straight face as he spews this tired mess.

The staged applause had an almost humorous aspect in a sad demented kind of way - I had to check the channel guide to make sure i wasn't watching an episode of The Prisoner by mistake, it was just that damn surreal.

Some of my buddies, for reasons incomprehensible to me decided at several points to throw popcorn at the screen while offering simian impersonations, it was just THAT bad.

There's also some ironic amusement in watching the number one of the republican party try to mouth the words of the principles they've always claimed and never once in the history of the party ever held to for a minute... what kind of insane rationalized denial does it TAKE to believe they actually hold to any of it ? and with some nimrod as UN-convincing as that spouting it ?

*shaking head*

He'd have done far, far better to just shut up - i'm surprised his handlers didn't quickly usher him out of there under the guise of a terror threat or technical malfunction.

It was downright claw your eyes out, stuff your ears with cotton, skincrawling AWFUL, no doubt about it.

-Frem

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:10 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
If the electorate was ever actually, truly informed, who knows how different the results of last November's elections would have been. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you, and actually takes the time to become informed before making a statement (or voting).



If the electorate were ever actually, truly informed, they'd realize that they're being played for dupes by both parties. They'd realize that the differences between the two, while made to seem big, are really just paper thin. They'd realize how those clowns are just using the system to promote personal power. And they'd either vote them all out, and abandon both parties in favor of some alternative, or just revolt against a government that doesn't give two shakes about you (regardless of party affiliation), and really just wants to hold on to power as long as possible.

And if you buy into the demagoguery of either party, well, then, you're not actually, truly informed at all.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets


I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

Vote Firefly! http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:42 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Was at work, didn't see it or hear it. Will have to read it.

BTW usually I (sometimes with coworkers) will write a screamingly funny version of dubya's SOTU. They've had people laughing till they cried. If I get the time I'll write one and post it.

This is one of my favorite parts from past SOTUs, written by a contributor:

"THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker, Vice President Cheney, members of Congress, distinguished guests, fellow citizens: As we gather tonight, our nation is at war, our economy is in recession, and the civilized world faces unprecedented dangers. But, lets not dwell on my recent accomplishments."

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:44 AM

SHINYED


All I've heard from Bush & those that support sending more troops is " that if we pull out of Iraq it will be a disaster for America."

"They" say that Iran will occupy the South....Al Qaida will grow in the Sunni areas, & the Kurds will piss off Turkey if they hint at independence.

Funny how NOW all the "experts" can predict these scenarios, but were utterly clueless in predicting ANYTHING that has transpired in Iraq for the last 4 years.


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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I'm on Buffy, S7, so there's nothing keeping me away from these final episodes. I did hear clips though. Unsurpassed class by Bush at the introduction of Speaker Pelosi, if I do say so myself. I'm sure it caught a few folks off guard, hoping to see a bitter, broken W in defeat. So sorry .


I could do w/ stronger border patrol and immigration controls. I wasn't thrilled by the healthcare bit, at first. It's actually pretty decent,but not stellar. I'm still jaded from his big Gov't prescription drug plan. Nice bit w/ the real heroes stuff. That guy and the subway rescue....incredible story.

Substance might have been tepid, but most have agreed that his delivery was about the best he's ever been.





People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:07 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Substance might have been tepid, but most have agreed that his delivery was about the best he's ever been.






Which isn't really saying much...

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:31 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Substance might have been tepid, but most have agreed that his delivery was about the best he's ever been.


Which isn't really saying much...


Hmmm. I guess it's time to dust off this video that was making the rounds before the 2004 election (I was hoping that someone had YouTubed it, and they had ). It's a comparison of Bush's speaking ability during the 1994 Texas Governor debate and the 2004 Presidential debate. Different than reading a teleprompter, but if 2007 State of the Union Bush is less impressive than 1994 Governor Debate Bush, that would really suck for AURaptor's claim.



Anyone have any links to SOTU 07 video footage that we can compare?

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:32 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Barring the fact that any FIFTH grader could have done a better job delivering it...


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Substance might have been tepid, but most have agreed that his delivery was about the best he's ever been.


It's surprisingly easy to agree with both these statements.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:

And if you buy into the demagoguery of either party, well, then, you're not actually, truly informed at all.


They think they are, and that's all that really matters in the end...perception, and the control of same. The real route to power.

Somnambulist public indeed Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:52 AM

PENGUIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
If the electorate were ever actually, truly informed, they'd realize that they're being played for dupes by both parties. They'd realize that the differences between the two, while made to seem big, are really just paper thin. They'd realize how those clowns are just using the system to promote personal power. And they'd either vote them all out, and abandon both parties in favor of some alternative, or just revolt against a government that doesn't give two shakes about you (regardless of party affiliation), and really just wants to hold on to power as long as possible.



AMEN BROTHER!

This is why I'm tired of politics...




King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:54 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
That guy and the subway rescue....incredible story.


Indeed. I first heard about it in early January (when it happened), as I listen to 1010 WINS and 880 WCBS when I'm driving.

While it's had some national attention, I don't know how it's been playing in other parts of the world.

The amazing thing is this guy saw another guy take a seizure and fall onto the tracks. As the train was zipping into the station, this hero dove down off the platform. Anyone who's taken the subway in NYC (as I have regularly) knows how fast those trains come into the station.

Not having enough time to get the guy off the tracks (much less back up onto the platform), he pushed the guy's arms and legs off the rails, and lay on top of him as the train passed over them both. (I actually saw a picture of the guy's knitted skull cap which was brushed by the underside of the train.)

He then had to stay on top of the guy for more than a half hour (if I recall correctly), until the authorities could be sure they could get them out without electricuting them both.

This guy literally had only a few seconds in which to act, and he didn't hesistate. It's quite an incredible story, and I'm glad he got some air time in front of a national audience.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:57 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
You're a credit to your country, and a shame to those in ours who complain about everything, but don't take the time to actually become informed about the subjects over which they continually whine.

If the electorate was ever actually, truly informed, who knows how different the results of last November's elections would have been. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you, and actually takes the time to become informed before making a statement (or voting).

Read: people who don't agree with me are ignorant morons (I believe it's vital to quote Cartoon, as he has a habit to change his words after the fact to discredit others).



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:59 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
If the electorate were ever actually, truly informed, they'd realize that they're being played for dupes by both parties. They'd realize that the differences between the two, while made to seem big, are really just paper thin. They'd realize how those clowns are just using the system to promote personal power. And they'd either vote them all out, and abandon both parties in favor of some alternative, or just revolt against a government that doesn't give two shakes about you (regardless of party affiliation), and really just wants to hold on to power as long as possible.

One question I do have to ask, why the two party system? Why does it have to be one or the other ultimatly in charge? I don't really get it.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
One question I do have to ask, why the two party system? Why does it have to be one or the other ultimatly in charge? I don't really get it.


'Cause in this country everything has to be polarized.

Pepsi OR Coke
McDonald's OR Burger King
Traitor OR Patriot
Buffy OR Max

If you're not with us, you're against us.

Multiple parties would fragment our psyche, and force us to consider shades of grey...we would stand helpless at the buffet of political possibilities, unable to choose.


Say "baaaaa" Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

This guy literally had only a few seconds in which to act, and he didn't hesistate. It's quite an incredible story, and I'm glad he got some air time in front of a national audience.


I hear of 'hero' stories from time to time, and I'm more often amazed at how 'average' the events seem to be. Not trying to diminish what others have done, quite the contrary. But in most other cases, I think to myself..yeah, I'd have done something like that.

In THIS case, however,.....wow. I don't know. Granted, it must help living there and riding the rails to know what you're doing, but to do all that, notice what's going on, comprehend it then act on it...., all in an instant and NOT get yourself killed or maimed. It's heroic in every sense of the word.


( we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. )

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:29 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Multiple parties would fragment our psyche, and force us to consider shades of grey...we would stand helpless at the buffet of political possibilities, unable to choose.

Oh, the American electorate is considered to dumb to keep more than two things in their head at once.

Why didn't you just say?

But still, limiting the choices too two parties seems, silly.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:48 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
You're a credit to your country, and a shame to those in ours who complain about everything, but don't take the time to actually become informed about the subjects over which they continually whine.

If the electorate was ever actually, truly informed, who knows how different the results of last November's elections would have been. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you, and actually takes the time to become informed before making a statement (or voting).


Read: people who don't agree with me are ignorant morons (I believe it's vital to quote Cartoon, as he has a habit to change his words after the fact to discredit others).



I was waiting for Cartoon to debunk this particular strawman when Storymark mentioned it earlier, but I'm too impatient.
Because you do not agree with Cartoon, you are putting words in his mouth. And I am not just saying that because Cartoon happened to agree with me earlier.
Should a person actually watch the SOTU address before commenting or are you comfortable with uninformed opinions?

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:50 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

One question I do have to ask, why the two party system? Why does it have to be one or the other ultimatly in charge? I don't really get it.



you might find this interesting, the various methods that have been used to influence and guide society (carried on by the elite since the ancient world) towards a predetermined end *edit(i posted the wrong link originally-same topic, but not the one i wanted)

http://conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/Delphi_Technique.htm

Quote:

The Delphi Technique was originally conceived as a way to obtain the opinion of experts without necessarily bringing them together face to face. In Educating for the New World Order by Bev Eakman, the reader finds reference upon reference for the need to preserve the illusion that there is "Lay, or community, participation in the decision­making process), while in fact lay citizens are being squeezed out."

A specialized use of this technique was developed for teachers, the "Alinsky Method" (ibid., p. 123). The setting or group is, however, immaterial the point is that people in groups tend to share a certain knowledge base and display certain identifiable characteristics (known as group dynamics). This allows for a special application of a basic technique. The "change agent" or "facilitator" goes through the motions of acting as an organizer, getting each person in the target group to elicit expression of their concerns about a program, project, or policy in question. The facilitator listens attentively, forms "task forces," "urges everyone to make lists," and so on. While she is doing this, the facilitator learns something about each member of the target group. He/she identifies the "leaders," the "loud mouths," as well as those who frequently turn sides during the argument ­ the "weak or non­committal."

Suddenly, the amiable facilitator becomes "devil's advocate." He/she dons his professional agitator hat. Using the "divide and conquer" technique, he/she manipulates one group opinion against the other. This is accomplished by manipulating those who are out of step to appear "ridiculous, unknowledgeable, inarticulate, or dogmatic." He/she wants certain members of the group to become angry, thereby forcing tensions to accelerate. The facilitator is well trained in psychological manipulation. S/He is able to predict the reactions of each group member. Individuals in opposition to the policy or program will be shut out of the group.

The method works. It is very effective with parents, teachers, school children, and any community group. The "targets" rarely, if ever, know that they are being manipulated. If they do suspect this is happening, they do not know how to end the process. The desired result is for group polarization, and for the facilitator to become accepted as a member of the group and group process. He/she will then throw the desired idea on the table and ask for opinions during discussion. Very soon his/her associates from the divided group begin to adopt the idea as if it were their own, and pressure the entire group to accept the proposition.

This technique is a very unethical method of achieving consensus on a controversial topic in group settings. It requires well­trained professionals who deliberately escalate tension among group members, pitting one faction against the other, so as to make one viewpoint appear ridiculous so the other becomes "sensible" whether such is warranted or not.


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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:15 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I was waiting for Cartoon to debunk this particular strawman when Storymark mentioned it earlier, but I'm too impatient.

Actually no, though you assertion is a Strawman, well done.

Thanks for pointing that out though, I hadn't read Storymarks post, I largely skimmed this thread you see. Strange how two posters independently read the same thing here, and the only one who so far had a problem with that interpretation was the guy who both agrees with Cartoons politics and recently had a rather large ego stroking from same. Although I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that, that has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
You're a credit to your country, and a shame to those in ours who complain about everything, but don't take the time to actually become informed about the subjects over which they continually whine.

How else is this to be taken except 'if they knew what they were talking about they'd stop whining'?

Just so we're clear, whining is the word that tends to be attributed to a position that one disagrees with .
Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
If the electorate was ever actually, truly informed, who knows how different the results of last November's elections would have been. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you, and actually takes the time to become informed before making a statement (or voting).

In other words if people were informed the election would have gone differently, people wouldn't have voted democrat and would have voted republican, like Cartoon does. Or, as I said, you either agree with Cartoon or you are uninformed.
Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Because you do not agree with Cartoon, you are putting words in his mouth.

Actually I directly quoted him, right there for all too see, and now given clear reasons as to why I made the assertions I did, so try again, because this accusation is clearly erroneous. Oh and it's also a Strawman and a Red Herring because you both made up my argument and motivation for me.
Quote:

And I am not just saying that because Cartoon happened to agree with me earlier.
Oh of course not, who ever could think such a thing?
Quote:

Should a person actually watch the SOTU address before commenting or are you comfortable with uninformed opinions?
Before commenting on the address, probably, but Cartoon wasn't talking about the address, he was talking about the election, it's right there in the quote if you care to take a look.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:30 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Curses.. well, at least I can be semi-sure none of the folks I use it on are Browncoats, as some consolation.

You DO realize that technique works just as well in BOTH directions, Anti ?

-F

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:43 PM

ANTIMASON


true.. but atleast my motives would be pure

back to Bush though, i found this pretty humurous clip from the daily show, and it seems to characterize a noticeable change in Bushs idealogy and behavior.. which i believe is indicative of the mechanisms behind the office, that have turned him into a puppet, obviously selected, but still forced to sumbit to the NWO agenda(maybe even against his better judgement). check it out and let me know yourselves

=


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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:47 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Hmmm. I guess it's time to dust off this video that was making the rounds before the 2004 election (I was hoping that someone had YouTubed it, and they had ). It's a comparison of Bush's speaking ability during the 1994 Texas Governor debate and the 2004 Presidential debate. Different than reading a teleprompter, but if 2007 State of the Union Bush is less impressive than 1994 Governor Debate Bush, that would really suck for AURaptor's claim.



Anyone have any links to SOTU 07 video footage that we can compare?



- Bush SOTU '07, Illegal Immigration

Soup, now I'm worried about Mr. Bush. He may have serious problems, and we should try to help him, not ridicule him (and I mean this in a very non-sarcastic way). Of course, I didn't really find a lot on Dr. Joseph M. Price (stupid broken links) - I'm not sure whether the Dr. is because he's a professor, or because he actually has a doctorate - but, still... Bush 1994 (and even Bush 2000) were just wow. Wow.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:24 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I was waiting for Cartoon to debunk this particular strawman when Storymark mentioned it earlier, but I'm too impatient.

Actually no, though you assertion is a Strawman, well done.

Actually, yes, it was a strawman. All Cartoon said was that there are people in the US who whine instead of informing themselves about the issues. And I doubt anyone will disagree with that. Your response was then to rephrase Cartoon’s argument to mean something that he did not say, which would allow you to criticize him. That’s a strawman.
Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
If the electorate were ever actually, truly informed, they'd realize that they're being played for dupes by both parties. They'd realize that the differences between the two, while made to seem big, are really just paper thin. They'd realize how those clowns are just using the system to promote personal power. And they'd either vote them all out, and abandon both parties in favor of some alternative, or just revolt against a government that doesn't give two shakes about you (regardless of party affiliation), and really just wants to hold on to power as long as possible.

If people were truly informed, they wouldn’t be played for dupes by either party, but for the most part people, in all countries, choose to be uninformed, often opting for easier sarcasm, ridicule or cynicism, and it’s hard to imagine how that is the fault of politicians.


As for the State of the Union Address, I think it was a very strong address. Bush made the case for the war well, I think, but these are arguments that, however sound, have been made before (although that doesn't exonerate the Bush Administration for the lack of public engagement on this issue). If critics were going to accept them, they would have by now. While I think he did a good job with it, it won’t change any minds, and ironically the strength with which he made these arguments probably added vigor to the opposition, who will now feel the need to attack the president and his positions more strongly to compensate.

On the domestic front, Bush’s healthcare proposal, which I like very much, would help to provide health insurance for 80% of workers by, and would do so without instituting it in the government. The Democrats will not like this at all, though. Democrats want socialized healthcare. It’s possible though that there could be a compromise that would include an expansion of Medicare, maybe, along with Bush’s proposal.

Also Bush’s energy initiatives are a good step, but I really wish there was more incentive for the free market and fewer tariffs. However, Bush has the right idea. Technology and conservation are the direction we need to go on this.

One thing that I think was a major mistake to leave out was something on Missile Defense. Our defense technology is critical, but Democrats have a habit of putting defense on the backburner.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:12 PM

SIRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I'm Canadian and I somehow managed to find the time to watch.
Democracy is at it's best when fueled by an informed electorate.


I couldn't agree more.

You're a credit to your country, and a shame to those in ours who complain about everything, but don't take the time to actually become informed about the subjects over which they continually whine.

If the electorate was ever actually, truly informed, who knows how different the results of last November's elections would have been. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you, and actually takes the time to become informed before making a statement (or voting).



So, people are only "turly informed" if they agree with you?

I agree though, if people were better informed, November's elections may well have been different. We may have gotten rid of even more of the "do nothing congress". I imagine if people were better informed, the last couple Presidential elections would have been quite different as well. I think it's safe to say if everyone knew then what we know now, Dubya wouldn't be let anywhere near the White House.



For the most part, I would be pegged a liberal - I do tend to lean in that direction. That being said, I did listen to the President last night and generally do. I do my best to listen to people with opinions and views that differ from my own. I am from Missouri and must admit that I didn't listen to our governor's state of the state speech tonight. I just have a whole lot of difficulty listening to him. Guess I have some work to do on myself but I keep trying.

It always troubles me to hear people resort to name calling and labelling others who don't agree with them - I try not to do that myself - even in my head. It seems to me that it adds to the polarity that already exists. We do it in our homes, in our workplaces and more and more in our churches - not sure about the synagogues but I suspect it's rampant. There's a new film called Children of God which I haven't seen yet but believe it is a semi-documentary of Christian camps that are attempting to indoctrinate young children as warriors of Christ or some sort of thing like that. Fight fire with fire kind of thing. So sad - and very scary. Calling people who disagree and voice their disagreement with the powers that be traitors and terrorist sympathizers is sad and not what I would hope from other Americans.


I'm not sure who really benefits from these kinds of actions. In the long run, it just seems to hurt us all and keeps us from working together to solve the problems that face humanity all over the globe. Seems like we need to shift the focus toward listening and problem solving - guns as the ultimate last resort.


Siri

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Actually, yes, it was a strawman. All Cartoon said was that there are people in the US who whine instead of informing themselves about the issues. And I doubt anyone will disagree with that. Your response was then to rephrase Cartoon’s argument to mean something that he did not say, which would allow you to criticize him. That’s a strawman.
Finn, did you read Cartoon's statement all the way thru? Up through
Quote:

You're a credit to your country, and a shame to those in ours who complain about everything, but don't take the time to actually become informed about the subjects over which they continually whine.
I would have agreed with you, but then he went on to say
Quote:

If the electorate was ever actually, truly informed, who knows how different the results of last November's elections would have been.
?????

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:50 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


I think Children of God is about a sci-fi near-future when women can no longer become pregnant.

Then one woman does become pregnant, and becomes the focus of a lot of attention.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:07 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


When he starts talking about real efforts to protect our borders, a real attempt to solidify our right to bear arms and putting an end to the unconstitutional meddling with smokers rights and business owners who cater to them and letting the market decide if smoking should be allowed in establishments once and for all, as a Repuglican should be doing, than I'll give a damn what he has to say.

Till then, he can take his illegal war, socical security reform (or lack therof) and illegal survelance of American citizens and stick them up his unconstitutional, Communistic ass.

When did Repuglicans become Globalists and Communists anyways? I can only imagine how much worse it will be when the Demoncrats take over again.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:06 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:

- Bush SOTU '07, Illegal Immigration

Soup, now I'm worried about Mr. Bush. He may have serious problems, and we should try to help him, not ridicule him (and I mean this in a very non-sarcastic way). Of course, I didn't really find a lot on Dr. Joseph M. Price (stupid broken links) - I'm not sure whether the Dr. is because he's a professor, or because he actually has a doctorate - but, still... Bush 1994 (and even Bush 2000) were just wow. Wow.


Thanks for the link, yinyang. He didn't embarass himself. Didn't make his mother proud either though. (Weird side note, Pelosi was quicker off the draw than Cheney when it came to clapping. If Cheney's reflexes are that crappy, that dude he shot in the face must've been moving in super slo mo).

As far as the link I posted, I personally don't put too much stock into the claims made on the video. Making a diagnosis via video smacks too much of Senate Majority Leader Frist RE: Terri Schiavo, if you ask me. I'm more interested in the actual clips of George Bush, rather than the argument that uses those clips as evidence.

Quite a contrast, isn't it?

I think part of it is affected. It's a designed mannerism to appeal to the, "He's the kind of guy I'd like to have a beer with," demographic. But I also think that he just doesn't care anymore. He's tried this Presidenting and now he's bored. He's just phoning it in now.

What I saw in that clip from the 1994 debate was someone who was fluent on the issue being debated, had an opinion on a plan to improve that particular situation (at least in his mind) and a general idea on how to go about implementing that plan. In short, someone who was engaged and interested. I don't get that from Bush today.

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:09 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Fascists, Jack.. Fascists of the Mussolini stripe, and not even any good at it, alas.

Communists wanna take your stuff and give it to everybody.
Fascists wanna take your stuff and give it to their buddies.

The Rethugs 'went global" with the phenomenon of outsourced slave labor cause it's cheaper for their corpo buddies than paying americans.

I'd give more credence to the term "Free Market" when the folks in power mouthing it don't actually MEAN "Government Sponsored/Subsidised Monopoly".

The Dems in the past fifteen years or so have been of a more socialista bent, too true, but right now they're all so busy sucking up to a country that shall not be named, while handing out all our treasure to em, and that's right pissin me off.

I'm favorin the YOYO philosophy on that right now - ya don't live here ?
YOYO - You On Your Own!

To hell with givin OUR money to ANY foreign country, particularly one that gains us zero benefit and endless obligation.

-Frem

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:09 AM

SHINYED



Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

But still, limiting the choices to two parties seems, silly.



Last time I voted I remember seeing multiple Parties with candidates :
Green Party
Communist Party
Libertarian Party
Socialist Party
Independent Party
and others

Granted that these Parties in toto only represent about 1-2% of the voters in America, it still shows that we have choices other than Dems. or Repubs. It's too bad that the views and platforms of these lesser parties are not very well known.....they do have some good ideas and positions on issues; too bad they have no money or real organization. I see both Democrats and Republicans hell bent of destroying America...piece by piece....each party doing it in their own way...one from the left & one from the right & MOSTLY for the SAKE OF GETTING ELECTED...and along the way every single thing that America once stood for, and every single once-proud tradition of America is vanishing from our society. I'd love to see A NEW POLITICAL PARTY...something that embraces our traditions and values, and addresses the urgent problems in America without slinking down to the levels of the insane fringe left or the insane fringe right....something MODERATE...could call it The American Moderate Party?


!

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:29 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:

something MODERATE...could call it The American Moderate Party?



Once you hang a name on it and define it, it's as good as corrupt. It becomes it's own thing with agendas that suit the peeps running it, and like all other organized well-meaning entities, it loses sight of the people in favour of fighting for it's dogma.

We need the 'American Whatever' party. (Whatever the issue is, we'll consider it from whatever point of view that best serves the people!)

Crap. I hung a name on it....



Can't win Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:36 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
We need the 'American Whatever' party. (Whatever the issue is, we'll consider it from whatever point of view that best serves the people!)

Crap. I hung a name on it....

So what we need is the “American Party.” The Party formerly known as ...



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:05 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I was waiting for Cartoon to debunk this particular strawman when Storymark mentioned it earlier, but I'm too impatient.


Actually no, though you assertion is a Strawman, well done.

Thanks for pointing that out though, I hadn't read Storymarks post, I largely skimmed this thread you see.



Then you are doing this thread and perhaps even this forum a disservice. Are you telling me that instead of reading the thread and contributing, you skim for the posters you disagree with to flamebait them?

Quote:


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
You're a credit to your country, and a shame to those in ours who complain about everything, but don't take the time to actually become informed about the subjects over which they continually whine.

How else is this to be taken except 'if they knew what they were talking about they'd stop whining'?

Just so we're clear, whining is the word that tends to be attributed to a position that one disagrees with .



I read the statement as whine all you like but at least know what you are whining about first.

Quote:


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:
If the electorate was ever actually, truly informed, who knows how different the results of last November's elections would have been. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you, and actually takes the time to become informed before making a statement (or voting).


In other words if people were informed the election would have gone differently, people wouldn't have voted democrat and would have voted republican, like Cartoon does. Or, as I said, you either agree with Cartoon or you are uninformed.



Cartoon's statement was pretty non partisan if you ask me, it was open to multiple interpretations.

Quote:


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Because you do not agree with Cartoon, you are putting words in his mouth.


Actually I directly quoted him, right there for all too see, and now given clear reasons as to why I made the assertions I did, so try again, because this accusation is clearly erroneous. Oh and it's also a Strawman and a Red Herring because you both made up my argument and motivation for me.



Sort of like how you took Cartoon's post and are now making up his argument and motivation for him?

Quote:


Quote:

Should a person actually watch the SOTU address before commenting or are you comfortable with uninformed opinions?

Before commenting on the address, probably, but Cartoon wasn't talking about the address, he was talking about the election, it's right there in the quote if you care to take a look.



Actually Cartoon was initially talking about an informed electorate. Perhaps if you had read the entire thread you would not take things out of context.



Posting to stir stuff up.

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:35 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Cartoon's statement was pretty non partisan if you ask me, it was open to multiple interpretations.


As you correctly stated, the first paragraph was in response to your post, where you mentioned that you had watched the speech, and addressed the benefit of an informed electorate.

I complimented you in that while American's who complain about his policies didn't watch, you as a non-American were able to find the time to watch our President's speech.

The second paragraph of my response was a general comment, not indicating any preference on my part. Naturally, as most posters know that I'm a conservative, they may have just assumed that this was a cut at the Democrats.

I believe that those in here who know me, know that if my intention had been to cut into the Democrats, I would've done it, and not beat around the bush (no pun intended).

Many of the contests in the November congressional elections in the U.S. were very close. And even though the Democrats took both houses, they only have a one-seat majority in the Senate, and nothing anyone would consider major in the House.

Be that as it may, all I've heard in the media since the day after the election is "Democrat mandate!" Interestingly, when the Republicans actually gained seats for their majority in the 2002 Congressional election, none of the liberal media pundits were crying "Republican mandate!" So, one wonders how they interpret this similar gain (but for a different party) in an entirely different manner?

Given the said closeness of many of those races, an "informed" electorate could've turned them either way. Unfortunately, many people I know (and many I don't know, but whom I've heard speak on the subject), simply voted "against" one party, without even knowing what the other party stood for. To me, this certainly qualifies as an "uninformed" electorate (even if the situation were reversed, and people were voting against the Democrats, without knowing what the Republican's stood for, just because they were angry with the Democrat's).

Anyhow, I just skip over posts (including quotations included in other people's posts) made by such individuals who've long ago lost the right to occupy any of my time with name-calling, misinterpretations, and outright lies.

While I disagree with the vast majority of things I read on the internet, I've never once resorted to the tactics of these individuals, and their comments say more about themselves than they do about those who disagree with them. Those with whom I disagree, yet conduct themselves in a respectful manner (several persons in this thread come to mind) are worthy of my time. Those who don't, are not.

This is a policy I have long utilized on the internet, and one which I highly recommend. You'll find your stress level lowered considerably if you sieve out the responsible and courteous posters from those who are not.

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:54 AM

SHINYED


Quote:

Originally posted by cartoon:

Be that as it may, all I've heard in the media since the day after the election is "Democrat mandate!" Interestingly, when the Republicans actually gained seats for their majority in the 2002 Congressional election, none of the liberal media pundits were crying "Republican mandate!" So, one wonders how they interpret this similar gain (but for a different party) in an entirely different manner?



You're being a bit too kind on the "media". Any clear-thinking person could only conclude by their actions over the last decade or so that the elite media are nothing but whores & shills for the Democrats; ceaselessly attempting to shove fringe-left, ultra-liberal positions down American's throats in order to de-sensitize us to the many perversions and vile lifestyles that they endorse as well as their absurd adulation for anything anti-American...aka The UN and European socialism..

and while we're at it, consider the following :

All we ever heard from the Democrats from 2004 election loss was " rigged elections", " voter fraud","stolen election", "no paper trail", etc etc etc . For the recent 2006 election they had swarms of lawyers all around the country just ready to file suits and claim all of the above...if they lost!...but they didn't lose...they won...so ALL OF A SUDDEN the election process WORKS GREAT????? I didn't hear any sore loser Repub's blasting the election as " stolen", or "fraud" etc etc . Repubs took their hit with some dignity, as opposed to the Dems who were all too fully prepared to paralyze America with contested elections....so damn high-schoolish!...Either I won...OR YOU cheated!!!!...




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Thursday, January 25, 2007 7:16 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
the “American Party.” The Party formerly known as ...


Genius.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 7:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

While I disagree with the vast majority of things I read on the internet, I've never once resorted to the tactics of these individuals, and their comments say more about themselves than they do about those who disagree with them. Those with whom I disagree, yet conduct themselves in a respectful manner (several persons in this thread come to mind) are worthy of my time. Those who don't, are not.
As I recall from the Abortion thread, I was polite and on-point when I asked
Quote:

Do you have any arguments to refute that? Any other studies? And comments by the authors themselves on how they might have corrected for that? ... Any studies which- for example- show better development and more intact personalities when presumed fetal "pain" is controlled? Any comments on the mechanism of pain? Any insight on fetal EEGs? Comparative anatomy?
but the answer I got was, well...
Quote:

Studies which will meet the only criteria accepted by this group -- from atheistic, liberal, pro-abortion, anti-American sources? No. I imagine that even if one could produce a speaking, fully-educated fetus who solemnly swore that it felt "pain", there would still be those in this forum who would claim that the fetus was biased, and summarily dismiss its testimony. Given the apparent, omniscient attributes of many of the posters in this group, it seems rather pointless to even try.
How do I classify THAT response?


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 7:59 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
How do I classify THAT response?



Sincere admiration....?

The Klingon Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


hahahahahahaha!!!! Thanks Chrisisall!

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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