REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Hillary Sipped Champagne While 800,000 Rwandans Were Slaughtered And Raped

POSTED BY: JONGSSTRAW
UPDATED: Friday, November 26, 2021 06:06
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Sunday, April 15, 2007 7:08 AM

JONGSSTRAW


It went on for months in 1994.
Clinton did nothing to stop it.
He didn't even go to the UN for help.
He didn't even try to jam the radio stations that were broadcasting the incitement to slaughter. The State Dept. had satellite photos of mass graves freshly dug & UN eyewitness reports, but could not persuade Clinton's White House to lift a finger.

Clinton didn't do anything because he felt America wouldn't support our intervention. He didnt stop the radio braodcasting because it would have been too expensive. He looked at the polls and did nothing.

And black Americans love the Clintons? What a fucking joke! That's the difference between Clinton & Bush. Bush acts with leadership to do what he feels is right..even though it may not have popular support. Whatever you feel about Bush you cannot deny that some good has come out of our Iraq invasion...no more rape rooms and torture chambers for Iraqi children.

All Obama or the Rep. candidate has to say next year to DESTROY Hillary is one word... "Rwanda". What the hell is she gonna say? Actually in light of the current racial atmo in America now, it would be a great time to re-visit the Rwanda genocide, and the Clinton's utter vile lack of leadership and action.

Where were Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton during the Rwanda genocide? Nowhere! Where was Hillary Clinton during the endless days of raping and hacking to death of young Rwandan girls? She was busy fluffing up Yassir Arafat's pillows in the Lincoln bedroom, and then jetting off to Hollywood to sip champagne and gorge on rack of lamb with Streisand and Reiner.

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 7:13 AM

KANEMAN


Can't wait to see what Pelosi sips when she gets her wish of a US pullout of Iraq. Surely more than 800,000 will die due to secular violence and civil war. Hummmmm, I wonder if she will do a shot of Goldschlager or have a pint of Stella?

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 7:20 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Yeah...there will be another Cambodia-style killing fields slaughter that Dems take no responsibility for, but hey...at least we'll have stem cells.

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 8:05 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yeah...there will be another Cambodia-style killing fields slaughter that Dems take no responsibility for, but hey...at least we'll have stem cells.



JS,
Did you mean fuel cells?

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 8:23 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


dude...give me a fucking break. If you're going to attack the clintons for Rwanda, there's certainly enough love to go around.

Where were the republicans? Oh yeah, witch hunting.

This was a travesty by all of our top officials.

It doesn't make up for it, but Clinton did say that it was the biggest mistake of his presidency.

currently we have a president who doesn't make mistakes...and then does a mummers act of looking for weapons of mass destruction under couches...

what is sicker?

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 8:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA


And this is any better than Shrub pickin on a guitar while Nawlins drowned ?

Puh-lease, they're all scum, it's not like we don't know this, so quit whining and go do something about it, other than supporting one of two equally scummy parties.
..
...
....
On second thought, carry on - I don't want you on my side.


-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 9:07 AM

PIRATECAT


Hillary the only woman in America who can eat an apple through a chain link fence.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 10:48 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
dude...give me a fucking break.
Where were the republicans? Oh yeah, witch hunting.


First of all, I aint no dude.
Secondly, in 1994 Democrats controlled all of Congess; Republicans were in the minority of both houses....didn't start any proceedings against bad-boy Bill until years later.
Are those 2 facts enough of a "fucking break" for ya?

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 10:52 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And this is any better than Shrub pickin on a guitar while Nawlins drowned?


Are you honestly trying to draw a comparison to the 2 events? A few days of dis-comfort versus many months of preventable genocidal slaughter with 3/4 of a million dead? You cannot have drunk that much kool-aid in your life to even believe that yourself.

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:05 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Well as long as we're on the blame kick, where the hell is America right now? Darfur ring any bells?

If you're going to start s**t, do so equally.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:12 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And this is any better than Shrub pickin on a guitar while Nawlins drowned?


Are you honestly trying to draw a comparison to the 2 events? A few days of dis-comfort versus many months of preventable genocidal slaughter with 3/4 of a million dead? You cannot have drunk that much kool-aid in your life to even believe that yourself.



a few days of discomfort? Elderly women dying on the street because of dehydration and heat prostration is "discomfort" to you. People losing EVERYTHING including loved ones is "discomfort"

What planet are you living on? Have you been to Gulfport? New Orleans? Your "few days of discomfort" is still going on.




---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Sunday, April 15, 2007 12:38 PM

MARINA


Well the blame goes to the Canadians too - they had a man on the inside reporting on the violence and requesting backup and instead they waited until crisis broke, got their men out, and then left.

Even the French fled, before regrouping and going back to set up their controlled zones.

So, right. Not just the Clintons or the Americans or the Democrats or the Republicans or North America or Europe...

Don't make faces.

http://amaranton.wordpress.com

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 12:52 PM

KHYRON


Would it be fair to rename the thread to "George W. Was Managing A Baseball Team While 800,000 Rwandans Were Slaughtered And Raped"?



"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 12:56 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
And black Americans love the Clintons? What a fucking joke! That's the difference between Clinton & Bush. Bush acts with leadership to do what he feels is right..even though it may not have popular support. Whatever you feel about Bush you cannot deny that some good has come out of our Iraq invasion...no more rape rooms and torture chambers for Iraqi children.

Yeah, now they're run by a conglomerate and adults only. Much better.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:33 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

800,000 Rwandans Were Slaughtered

I thought about this for a while...

You know, this is going to sound crass, but dammit, someone's gotta say it.

So, umm, how exactly would that be OUR problem ?
Why the hell should we care ?
How the hell is it our business ?

We have our own problems, shouldn't we be fixing those, instead of everyone elses ?

How is our meddling in a situation we don't understand going to improve the situation ?

Why should I, personally, give a shit ?

I want an honest answer to that question, not a set of talking points or sound bites - you tell me, why as an american, living in america, I should give a rats ass about some other countries problem that does not directly impact our country or it's citizenry within our borders.

Let em solve their own damn problems, we got enough of our own to manage, and it's time we started doin that instead of sticking our neck out for half the planet.

I know it's a callous and rough thing to say, but I know damn well I am not the only one thinkin it.

You wanna talk about it, you give me a straight answer to that very simple question and maybe we will, otherwise, I'm done carin about it.

Clear ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:40 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

800,000 Rwandans Were Slaughtered

I thought about this for a while...

You know, this is going to sound crass, but dammit, someone's gotta say it.

So, umm, how exactly would that be OUR problem ?



It isn't (wasn't).

Quote:

Why the hell should we care ?


We shouldn't.

Quote:

How the hell is it our business ?


It isn't.

Quote:

We have our own problems, shouldn't we be fixing those, instead of everyone elses ?


Most certainly, but it's easier to send some poor people to die in another country and claim that you fixing the world then dealing with domestic issues that will be scrutinized on all sides.

Quote:

How is our meddling in a situation we don't understand going to improve the situation ?


Other than killing the people who were killing other people not much, problem is that the more people we kill the more people seem to end up wanting to kill other people...and the cycle continues.

Quote:

Why should I, personally, give a shit ?


You shouldn't.

Quote:

I want an honest answer to that question, not a set of talking points or sound bites - you tell me, why as an american, living in america, I should give a rats ass about some other countries problem that does not directly impact our country or it's citizenry within our borders.


Just about everything will eventually impact us in some way or another, but most of the problems that exist in the world would take much more effort to fix than they are worth.

Quote:

I know it's a callous and rough thing to say, but I know damn well I am not the only one thinkin it.


No and no. Taking care of ourselves first is the smart thing to do, not callous at all. I agree with you completely on this subject.

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:47 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Can't wait to see what Pelosi sips when she gets her wish of a US pullout of Iraq. Surely more than 800,000 will die due to secular violence and civil war. Hummmmm, I wonder if she will do a shot of Goldschlager or have a pint of Stella?



Have we stopped the violence now? All our presence will do is make it take longer to hit 800,000 and cost us enormous amounts of money and the lives of our soldiers in the meantime.

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:59 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
It went on for months in 1994.
Clinton did nothing to stop it.



And Bush has done nothing to stop Darfur.

Quote:

He didn't even go to the UN for help.


The UN doesn't need us to tell them what to do, they knew what was going on.

Quote:

He didn't even try to jam the radio stations that were broadcasting the incitement to slaughter.


That would have required direct military intervention, we would have had to fly Prowlers overhead 24-7 constantly monitoring as they switched frequencies around, not to mention that it could easily be construed as an act of war.

Quote:

Clinton didn't do anything because he felt America wouldn't support our intervention.


And we shouldn't.

Quote:

And black Americans love the Clintons? What a fucking joke!


I am Norwegian and German in my ancestry and honestly I don't care what happens to Norway or Germany, most of the blacks in America immigrated (and I use the term very loosely) 2 to 3 generations farther back than I did, what makes you think they care what's going on there?

Quote:

That's the difference between Clinton & Bush. Bush acts with leadership to do what he feels is right..even though it may not have popular support.


I think we have different definitions of leadership, to me dragging your underling along to fulfill your vision of the world whether they want to go or not isn't leadership.

Quote:

Whatever you feel about Bush you cannot deny that some good has come out of our Iraq invasion...no more rape rooms and torture chambers for Iraqi children.


Funny, I hear stories of women and children being murdered in Iraq all the time. Has some good come from us invading? Yes, does the good outweigh the bad? Unknown but I'm inclined to say no.

Quote:

All Obama or the Rep. candidate has to say next year to DESTROY Hillary is one word... "Rwanda". What the hell is she gonna say?


How about "Talk to my husband"? Hillary didn't make the policy decisions, in fact she can probably say that she told Bill that he should do something but he didn't listen to her, can you prove she didn't?

Quote:

Actually in light of the current racial atmo in America now, it would be a great time to re-visit the Rwanda genocide, and the Clinton's utter vile lack of leadership and action.


Sure and while we're at it can we mention Bush's vile lack of leadership and action regarding Darfur?

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 4:20 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Meanwhile, we got at least a few thousand nuclear weapons left with fewer commies to shoot them at since the USSR folded. Couldn't we just nuke them all and let the diety of your choice sort it out? And meanwhile, Nuclear winter would solve that global warming thing. Hey, a twofer!!

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 4:30 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Meanwhile, we got at least a few thousand nuclear weapons left with fewer commies to shoot them at since the USSR folded. Couldn't we just nuke them all and let the diety of your choice sort it out? And meanwhile, Nuclear winter would solve that global warming thing. Hey, a twofer!!



Hmmmmmmm...guess it works for me. On a more serious note, if you've been watching the news lately we may have the USSR back in not too long...

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 4:47 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"He didn't even go to the UN for help.
He didn't even try to jam the radio stations that were broadcasting the incitement to slaughter.
He didnt stop the radio braodcasting because it would have been too expensive. He looked at the polls and did nothing."

Was his name Hillary? Just thought I'd ask since you seem to have gotten confused. Or something.

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 4:51 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And on a more serious note, does anyone else smell the sock puppets?

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 4:53 PM

LEADB


Been pretty thoroughly hashed out.

Hillary was not responsible to ensure the UN took appropriate action on Rwanda. While it is likely the US could have done more than what we did; it is not our duty to stop every cold blooded dictator in the world; Bush has proven the folly of that approach.

Bush in Iraq...lord, what a waste. The American public would not have, and should not have, supported Bush going in to take out Sadam; they were lied to. Bush claimed WMD; he claimed he had "intelligence" he could not share with the world because it would compromise sources in the field; we -must- trust him because he had the information needed to make the right decision. It is my belief now that instead, he pumped the services to provide supporting information for a decision to invade; and silenced any who suggested his position was folly.

As pointed out "Bush has done nothing to stop Darfur." Again, more might be done; but it would be thru the UN. Even if a diplomatic wedge were inserted that might allow UN involvement to separate the factions, what would the US contribute? All our troops are tied up in Iraq.

The good that came out of Iraq... sorry, not seeing it.

====

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:02 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm sorry. I'm short on time and feeling just a little frustrated by some of the threads that have been started lately.

So, on to a completely non-serious reply: he (Bush) claimed he had "intelligence". Now that should have been the FIRST clue Bush was not being straight up. I mean, who'd believe that ?

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

And on a more serious note, does anyone else smell the sock puppets?

In case ya missed it, I commented on that althetic locker aroma days ago.

It's not like they're fooling anyone but themselves however.

-F

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Monday, April 16, 2007 3:56 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
In case ya missed it, I commented on that althetic locker aroma days ago.


Perhaps everyone was too busy lamenting your complete lack of compassion for your fellow man to heap platitudes on you for your perceived cleverness.

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Monday, April 16, 2007 5:16 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
So, umm, how exactly would that be OUR problem ?
Why the hell should we care ?
How the hell is it our business ?

We have our own problems, shouldn't we be fixing those, instead of everyone elses ?

How is our meddling in a situation we don't understand going to improve the situation ?

Why should I, personally, give a shit ?

Let em solve their own damn problems, we got enough of our own to manage, and it's time we started doin that instead of sticking our neck out for half the planet.



Ahhhh....it's like a breath of freash air. Without the notion that we ARE responsible for the entire world, people might start questioning the viability of our most recent military efforts.

I'm going to weigh in, I care about our young men and women in uniform. I care about them more than, Iraqqiis, Afghaniis, Sudanese, Somalians, Nigerians, North Koreans, Iranians, and any other f'd up place that Republicans are trying to convince us can't go on without our (military) help.

This nation has it's back turned on China. And by the time we're done giving everyone democracy and cars, they'll check mate us!


"The world is still turning and you're on it....count yourself lucky" My Dad, 2007.

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Monday, April 16, 2007 5:59 AM

SHINYED


Quote:

Originally posted by Malbadinlatin:
This nation has it's back turned on China. And by the time we're done giving everyone democracy and cars, they'll check mate us!


Can you say "Ni hau ma yankee dog"?

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Monday, April 16, 2007 6:12 AM

FIVVER


Mal, it's not the Republicans this time...

Quote:


WASHINGTON -- Delaware's Joe Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and a Democratic presidential candidate, called Wednesday for the use of military force to end the suffering in Darfur.

"I would use American force now," Biden said at a hearing before his committee. "I think it's time to put force on the table and use it."

Biden said senior U.S. military officials in Europe told him that 2,500 U.S. troops could "radically change the situation on the ground now."

"Let's stop the bleeding," Biden said. "I think it's a moral imperative."





http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070412/NEWS
/704120354/-1/NEWS01



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Monday, April 16, 2007 6:46 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I'm sorry. I'm short on time and feeling just a little frustrated by some of the threads that have been started . ?



Hey Ruster, mourning the sad end to your liberal circle jerk already? I love that the new guys smack your shit around. A lot more TROLLS up in this here mutha fucker lately.......Well, you do love minorities don't ya?

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Monday, April 16, 2007 7:15 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by fivver:
Mal, it's not the Republicans this time...[/quote

Quote:


WASHINGTON -- Delaware's Joe Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and a Democratic presidential candidate, called Wednesday for the use of military force to end the suffering in Darfur.



That's just f'n great!!!!!! (Throwing papers off my desk and making a scene) I mean....that's exactly what this country needs, another war!!!!!!!!!! or....Police Action!!!! or...Peacekeeping Mission!!!!! or....Whatever!!

Ok, I'm moving to China, maybe brush up on my Mandarin...Ne Hau Ma Running Dog!!!!

Oh, by the way...You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I'm going to defend Joe Biden. He IS whats wrong with the lethergic Democratic Party. Kennedy, Dodd, Carey, Shumacher. Throw em' all into the deep blue in a gunny sack with a rock!

Uhh-hmm-hmm....(clearing throat and trying to regain dignity)


"The world is still turning and you're on it....count yourself lucky" My Dad, 2007.

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Monday, April 16, 2007 1:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Screw dignity MalBad, it's way past any time it woulda done any good.

Out.
Now.
Everywhere.

And yes, while we're not lookin, the Chinese are sticking the knife in, look at our massive trade deficit and how dependance on Chinese goods keeps kickin us in the teeth.

I'm a pet owner, so you can guess what imma pissed about, although the pet food company I buy from isn't affected by this mess.

I imagine the next screwup will be worse, they always are - what it if was human food, eh ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, April 16, 2007 4:59 PM

EVILDINOSAUR


I'm glad it brings you joy that we have a president, in a democratic government let me remind you, that feels no hesitation to go against the popular opinion of the people. I seem to recall that a democracy is supposed to be a government that follows the will of the people. Just because we elected bush doesn't give him a 4 year reign to do watever he pleases. (and wen i say "we" i am certainly not implying that i voted for him)

I'm very sorry that people in other parts of the world die, but to be quite frank, it's not our problem. I'm sick of america being the world's police force. We have enough problems in our own country, let's fix those before we go trying to fix everyone else's.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Monday, April 16, 2007 5:26 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Out.
Now.
Everywhere."

I agree with this. Out of Germany, Japan, and the Phillippines as well. In fact, withdraw US forces from all bases oversees.

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Monday, April 16, 2007 5:37 PM

SUCCATASH


We should form some kind of group to make sure everything is okay.





.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:49 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Out.
Now.
Everywhere.


I am filling out my application for the "Out Now Everywhere" club. Hope I get in....

Quote:

I imagine the next screwup will be worse, they always are - what it if was human food, eh ?



Soylent Greeeeen is peeeeeeepuuuuhhhl!!!!!!!



"The world is still turning and you're on it....count yourself lucky" My Dad, 2007.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:58 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I imagine the next screwup will be worse, they always are - what it if was human food, eh ?



Spinach?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:01 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Out.
Now.
Everywhere."

I agree with this. Out of Germany, Japan, and the Phillippines as well. In fact, withdraw US forces from all bases oversees.



I would agree with a massive reduction in overseas deployments, but as long as we are a superpower we need to have control of ports around the world to aid us when we actually have something important to us to intervene in.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Jong, assuming that you're not a troll like Kaneman and that you're really interested in discussion, does it not concern you that your post can be so easily refuted with three replies?

1) Hillary wasn't President.
2) Bush has killed at least 500,000 Iraqis as a direct result of invasion. This isn't passively letting people die, this is killing.
3) Darfur

I gather from your post you don't like Hillary. Join the club. But if you're going to campaign against her, it would be FAR more effective if you (a) held her responsible for things that she had authority over, not for things that she didn't and (b) didn't invite comparisons to GWB that make Bush look just as bad by comparison.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I would agree with a massive reduction in overseas deployments, but as long as we are a superpower we need to have control of ports around the world to aid us when we actually have something important to us to intervene in.
Such as?

With the exception of defending our allies when they ask for it- in which case, their posts will be open to us anyway- what can you imagine us "having" to intervene in where we would need to go into a hostile situation? The only thing that I can think of is to defend access to "our" resources (oil, titanium, tantalum, etc.) or to defend "our" companies from nationalization. In other words, to defend capitalism.

Given that we support a shitload of dictatorships around the world (including the Saudis and the Chinese) and that our defense is based mainly on the struggle for access to cheap resources and cheap labor, if we simply stopped the world would be better place.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:29 AM

SHINYED


Signym.....Your post is about as bad as Jongs.....

Hillary was quite active in the Clinton Admin...she led the charge for National Healthcare legislation ( wisely defeated ) and many other political issues. Plus she could deny boner-boy Bill any nookie if he didn't do what she wanted...ooops, that won't pass the Pepsi challenge, but nonetheless she helped shape his policies.
Next...Bush has never killed anyone...your rant is sooooooo kool-aid driven it's beyond frikkin absurd...go download more Rosie Odonnell bullshit if that makes you warm at night.
Darfur is a grain of sand compared to the Rock of Gibraltar that Rwanda was...and besides ...I think our military resources are a bit thin right now...in 1994 the USA had full strenght military capabilities...could have prevented the 5 month slaughter with just a mere show of force.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:39 AM

SHINYED


Jongsstraw....interesting name by the way. Is it related to a name of a character played by James Shigeta by chance? I read your post over the weekend & held off responding until now...
What the hell prompted your rant? ...and why now after 13 years? I know there was an HBO movie on over the weekend about Rwanda, but I don't think the facts are usually too much of a concern with moviemakers. Clinton didn't want to do it..he never would have been re=elected if he had...America had no stomach for it in 1994...too busy making big money on .com stocks.
And give Hillary a break....if she had ever said one word about intervening in Rwanda, her elitist friends in Hollywood & the Media would have crucified her. Liberals are VERY selective in the outrage concerning human rights violations...If the finger of guilt aint pointing right back at us, they dont have a problem with any of it.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ed- In order


1) Hillary was "active" but Hillary wasn't commander in Chief. You may as well blame Laura Bush for the Fed's failures with Katrina. If anyone is to "blame" it's Bill Clinton.


2) Bush never killed anyone? You mean Bush never shot any Iraqis? Well Hillary never shot any Rwandans either so what's your point?

3) The United Nations has estimated 200,000 dead in Darfur. Other estimates are higher. The only ones who estimate low are those who have an interest in not stoppping what's going on: President Bashir (who estimates 9,000 dead) and possibly Deputy Secretary of State Robert B. Zoellick, who estimates 60,000- 190,000. (60,000 is already known to be impossibly low).



---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 8:22 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

I would agree with a massive reduction in overseas deployments, but as long as we are a superpower we need to have control of ports around the world to aid us when we actually have something important to us to intervene in.


Such as?



I'll agree that there isn't much but I can think of a few things, evacuating U.S. nationals, ability to launch tactical recon missions (satellites are predictable and thus avoidable) wherever we need to to find out whats going on with potential enemies, and probably most important, the ability to ensure secure supply lines if we need to help an ally. I'm not saying we should have hundreds of fully manned ports and airfields around the world, just a loose network of places that we can use without begging other governments.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 8:40 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:
Signym.....Your post is about as bad as Jongs.....



Disagree

Quote:

Hillary was quite active in the Clinton Admin...she led the charge for National Healthcare legislation ( wisely defeated ) and many other political issues.


If she had the power the jong implies she had it couldn't have been defeated, she had a pet project that she lobbied for yes, but that doesn't mean she had the ability to make decisions that had the force of law.

Quote:

Plus she could deny boner-boy Bill any nookie if he didn't do what she wanted...ooops, that won't pass the Pepsi challenge, but nonetheless she helped shape his policies.


Did she have influence? Yes, but once again the final decision didn't rest with her it rested with Bill, blaming her for what was or wasn't done, except in cases where her interest was made clear like the above mentioned health care thing, is illogical, just like blaming Barbara Bush for the first Gulf War would have been.

Quote:

Next...Bush has never killed anyone...your rant is sooooooo kool-aid driven it's beyond frikkin absurd


I don't see how you can say this with a straight face unless you've had some kool-aid yourself. Bush chose the war in Iraq, he (and admittedly his Administration) made a decision to invade a country for no apparent reason other than that he didn't like the countries leader. As a result tens if not hundreds of thousands have died, Bush is more responsible for their deaths than Bill is for the Rwandans.

Quote:

Darfur is a grain of sand compared to the Rock of Gibraltar that Rwanda was


Ha! Darfur is on pace to match Rwanda, maybe they haven't yet, but give them time.

Quote:

...and besides ...I think our military resources are a bit thin right now


Why? Because of Bush's pet war, a war that we had no real right to start. If Bush wasn't so obsessed with Iraq then Afghanistan would be probably be OK right now and we would have had spare troops to send to Darfur. Instead Afghanistan (the place that actually harbored the people who attacked us) is mostly in the hands of the Taliban again, Iraq is a mess that we will probably be cleaning up for a few decades and Darfur is still happening.

Quote:

in 1994 the USA had full strenght military capabilities...could have prevented the 5 month slaughter with just a mere show of force.


Our naval air power is more than up to the challenge of providing a show of force, we can down the Sudanese militia air forces in the space of a day or two and provide close air support for the refugees with ease without seriously affecting our ability to prosecute the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but we don't be Bush doesn't want to.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:23 AM

SHINYED


Sig & Fred...I think you both need to re-read the original thread post. It says Hillary sipped tea. Almost all the rest talks about Bill, not Hillary. You both relish stating the obvious...ie, she wasn't the President etc....well duuuuh! But she did have a platform...she could have said something, somewhere, sometime....something like she feels the UN...Koffi & his gang...maybe they should send UN troops....or challenged France & the rest of the former European Africa-colonizers to clean up the mess they left...but she was silent all through that time. Also, you both go after Bush in defense of Bill Clinton...that's really intellectually dis-honest, 'cause you should never justify poor behavior & leadership by comparison to other poor behavior & leadership.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:39 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:
Sig & Fred...I think you both need to re-read the original thread post. It says Hillary sipped tea. Almost all the rest talks about Bill, not Hillary. You both relish stating the obvious...ie, she wasn't the President etc....well duuuuh! But she did have a platform...she could have said something, somewhere, sometime....something like she feels the UN...Koffi & his gang...maybe they should send UN troops....or challenged France & the rest of the former European Africa-colonizers to clean up the mess they left...but she was silent all through that time.



And so was everyone else, so why should she be singled out? How many of the Republicans and other Democrats (the ones in Congress whose voices carry the weight of law) ignored it? How many citizens of America knew what was going on and didn't demand action? Hillary is no more guilty than anyone else in this so targeting her to the exclusion of everyone else is misleading at best.

Quote:

Also, you both go after Bush in defense of Bill Clinton...that's really intellectually dis-honest, 'cause you should never justify poor behavior & leadership by comparison to other poor behavior & leadership.


jong compared Bush favorably to Clinton, we are pointing out that Bush is doing the same thing, that is not dishonest. If jong hadn't praised Bush's leadership for Iraq while conveniently ignoring Darfur then you might have a point.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:52 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


What's with the past tense? The slaughter isn't over. It's happening in Darfur and Sudan even as I type. It's happening right now. Kids dying - now. Women being raped - now. And the death toll just keeps mounting.

Where's Bush? What is he doing?

Where are you? What are you doing?

Because there are charities and humanitarian organisations crying out for help right now, and no one is listening. Anything anyone can do, from raising awareness to raising money, will help. And help is badly needed. Don't wring your hands and say it's terrible - bloody well do something!

Unless of course you're just using the deaths of 800,000 people to grind your own political axe.






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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:53 AM

FREDGIBLET


I'd just like to clarify my position a little. I don't particularly like Hillary, I think she is a mediocre politician and that she is not the best choice for the presidential candidacy. However the attacks that have been launched here are IMO baseless and deserve to be refuted whether I like her or not.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:57 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Where's Bush? What is he doing?



Causing terrorism in Iraq

Quote:

Where are you? What are you doing?


Bitching about the Democrats

Quote:

Don't wring your hands and say it's terrible - bloody well do something!


But but but, hand-wringing is so much easier, especially when you can ignore current events in order to attack a political opponent who had no control over events over a decade ago.

Quote:

Unless of course you're just using the deaths of 800,000 people to grind your own political axe.


*ding ding ding* We have a winner!

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