REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

atleast 20 killed in campus shooting at Virginia Tech

POSTED BY: FEITY
UPDATED: Friday, April 20, 2007 16:47
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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:16 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Doesn't bother me, have to be everybody though, because bad guys will always be able to get guns somehow." ...I suspect it's one of those things that get repeated over and over, true or not. Does anyone have ANY data to back this up?

Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, this goes into the 'maybe' pile and doesn't count for purposes of the topic.



Jamaica has very strict gun control laws, and a murder rate 7.7 times that of the US, generally referred to in media reports as "gun crimes" although I havent found any stats yet. Mexico also has many restrictions on firearms ownership (there's only one gun store in the whole country), yet 1.2 times the US firearms murder rate.

If you look at just murders per capita, regardless of weapon, there's a lot of countries on the list with stricter gun laws than the US where people apparently manage to kill each other at a much higher rate using something other than guns.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-cap
ita


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:02 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I believe these two statements illustrate the salient point.
Quote:

There is no physical way to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Perhaps you can protect yourself--live in a concrete bunker, pay people to get your mail, or something--but You won't prevent this from happening to someone else.


Quote:

But exactly nothing can be done in these extreme cases. No amount of control can make us safe from madness.

That's kinda my point, you see.

As long as the world is the way it is, such dangers exist, and probably always will due to simple human nature.

While I don't see it as my responsiblity to protect others, I can and will protect myself such as is reasonable and possible from for lack of a better word, baddies.

Being middle aged, in fairly poor health and with a prosthetic leg that's often not as functional as I would like, and not being a kung-fu master, my functional self-defense options are often limited by that, thus the only reasonable way to level that playing field should I find myself on it is a firearm... situational awareness and conflict avoidance will only carry you so far.

As far as maybes go, Rue, there's no maybe about it, someone who wants to kill people badly enough *will* find some way to do it, and since the individual person doesn't have any influance over that, one does what one can in ones own defense.

The world is a dangerous place and to pretend otherwise is pure madness, so there's nothing wrong with taking reasonable, rational precautions to mitigate those risks, it's no different than carrying a spare tire in your trunk - it's something you'd rather not need, but the realities of life make it wise to do.

I prefer to deal reasonably with the rest of the human race, alas, some of the time that isn't reciprocated and thus I am prepared for that eventuality - and while given the chance to do so I would avoid violence, some times that choice isn't available, it's not simpler than that.

Believe me, I'd *like* to live in a world where these kind of things don't happen, but as long as we do, I plan to ensure to the best of my ability that they don't happen to ME.

And what's so very wrong with that, then ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:11 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


MUST SEE TV: GUN BANS KILL PEOPLE

Quote:


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4948538901303259236
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6006926775914305210



State Rep Suzanna Gratia Hupp, R-Lampasas, testifies to Congress in opposition to gun ban laws, after her parents were murdered in front of her. She had a handgun carry permit, but federal and Texas law banned handguns in restarants, so she left her gun in her car. Luby's massacre was a mass killing that took place on October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas, United States when George Hennard entered a Luby's Cafeteria and shot and killed 23 people, wounded 20 and then killed himself. Only the work of a large man breaking through a window allowed the rest of the patrons to escape. One noted exception was a mother and her 4-year-old child, whom Hennard allowed to leave. Though Hennard was shot several times by police, only when he ran out of victims did Hennard walk to the rear of the seating area and take his own life with a gunshot to the head.

As a direct result of this massacre, in 1995 the Texas Legislature, led by Suzanna Gratia Hupp (whose parents were both killed in the massacre), passed a law over the veto of former Governor Ann Richards that allowed Texas citizens to obtain a concealed carry handgun permit in part as a reaction against the massacre. Soon after, many states considered similar weapon permits for citizens.

The Luby's massacre remained the deadliest criminal mass shooting in United States history until April 16, 2007, when the Virginia Tech massacre occurred. In the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre on July 18, 1984, 21 died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre



A bill in the Virginia legislature last year that would have allowed students with concealed weapons permits to carry their guns at schools was killed, with VA Tech spokesman Larry Hincker heralding the move as action that would "help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus." "Isn't it interesting that Utah and Oregon are the only two states that allows faculty to carry guns on campus. And isn't it interesting that you haven't read about any school or university shootings in Utah or Oregon? Why not? Because criminals don't like having their victims shoot back at them," Gun Owners of America's Larry Pratt said yesterday. "That's why the American people want an end to this ineffective gun ban." 85% of Americans support the right of a principle or a teacher to have instant access to a safely stored firearm in order to defend the lives of students and prevent a school massacre, but a drive is already underway to disarm more victims and grease the skids for more horrors similar to what unfolded yesterday.
www.infowars.com/articles/2nd_amendment/va_tech_shooting_gun_control_l
aw_helped_campus_killer.htm




The alleged shooter was not a US citizen, and may have been a member of the Korean Mafia that runs most Tai Quan Dojos and oriental massage parlors in USA, as part of the police-approved CIA White House sex-slave trade and opium ring of the Bush Crime Family.

The cure for this crime is a ban of foreigners, and a ban on foreign-built guns.

CNN NEWS:

The lone nut was under mind-control by "therapists", and the university knew all about his dangerous insanity, and refused to kick him out of school, even tho he was so sick in the head that he could not attend class, and had to be tutored without speaking.
www.infowars.com/articles/us/va_tech_shooting_gunman_writings_raised_c
oncern.htm


So this Manchurian Candidate was allowed to do this crime spree, under the orders of the university and police, over the objections of teachers and students.



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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:27 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


If They do ban guns, you can always make your own improvised firearm device, out of cardboard and matches, or anything else.

ZIP GUNS
In late 2000, European police encountered a four shot .22 LR zip gun disguised as a cellphone, where different keys on the keypad fire different barrels. Because of this discovery, cellphones are now x-rayed by airport screeners worldwide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_gun

You can manufacture your own full-auto machinegun at your local hardware store, even in England's Total Gun Ban Except For Royalty. Free e-book download:
www.thehomegunsmith.com


Jewish mobster & British prime minister
Sir Winston Churchhill

Of course, with Wide Open borders in UK and USA, gun bans for the sheeple are bypassed by 100-millions of illegal aliens.

Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:
According to reports Rosie O'Donnell has a bodyguard who carries a full-auto machine pistol.

One of the members of the much forgotten (& rightfully so) "Million Mom March" was busted in New York for carrying a handgun while putting up signs for the (anti-gun) march.



Rosie said on her show today that:

Quote:


"There is no way to ever ban guns in USA. That will never happen. I spent many years trying to do that, as hard as I could, and I had no effect. So now I don't try."


Rosie refused to say anything bad about guns today, but of course failed to mention she has many millions of dollars to hire an army of armed ex-cops to kill anyone she wants to kill.

Today, Rosie did demand that Bush be impeached immediately, in response to the token Republican chick complaining about John Edward's $400 haircut (how much in Bush's budget for a fulltime hair team?).

So Rosie has joined us, in both gun rights and 911 Truth. Before you know she'll be wearing a dress and leave her bitch for another man.



"You can't stop the signal, unless you stab me with that sword, because I don't have a gun."
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:41 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The world is a dangerous place and to pretend otherwise is pure madness."

You know how you can spot a Canadian in a crowd of USers? They walk with their heads up, looking around with interest. USers OTOH are defensive, furtive folk, used to trying to avoid being a target.

Not ALL places are dangerous hostile little worlds. Some places are quite pacifist, nice places to visit, to work and live, actually. My question is - how does the US get from here to there.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:55 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Uncle Scam is the most prolific killer in USA, especially if you include the annual 2.5-million murders perped by medical doctors in death camps under govt contract. For Bush The Butcher Of Bagdad to grace Virginia Tech with his drunken coked-up nappy-ho kissing face, is an exercise in the power of mind control, that the sheeple don't lynch him, but worship him as god instead. The grinning student Pakistani president was practically ejaculating all over himself on CNN, bragging about the big event of 40,000 grieving slaves today.

WHAT THE PSYOP SCHOOL SHOOTING TOTALLY KNOCKOUT OUT OF THE NEWS TODAY, WHICH IS IRS TAX DEADLINE DAY AT 12 MIDNIGHT, NORMALLY DISCUSSED AD NAUSEUM ON TV NEWS:

AMERICA FROM FREEDOM TO FASCISM
by Jew Aaron Russo (producer of Eddie Murphy's Trading Places, discovered Led Zeppelin)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&hl=en
www.freedomtofascism.com

MONOPOLY MEN
Jewish Private Federal Reserve Bankster Scam
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7065177340464808778

THE REAL NEWS TODAY: IRS tax is voluntary, no law requires paying income tax, 16th Amendment was never ratified by the states, all income taxes go to a private Federal Reserve Bank Corporation in London England, no income tax revenue reaches the US govt. Actor Wesley Snipes is the latest citizen under indictment for refusing to pay this scamtax.

In other news, Daniel Sunjata, co-star of the critically-acclaimed FX Network television series, Rescue Me and Tony Award nominated actor who has performed in film, television and in the theater and has recently come forward with his support of the 9/11 Truth Movement.


www.911blogger.com/node/7634

Quote:


VIDEO: UT Tower Shooting: Cop Ray Martinez

Ray Martinez the "official" hero of the 1966 University of Texas Tower Shooting who shot Whittman, the US Marine Corps tower sniper. This was one of the most infamous mass murder cases in US crime history, with suppression fire from the heavily armed citizens (ignored by the Media Mafia).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4419115466870548681&hl=en





"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:37 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


So the alleged shooter was officially under mind control by "therapists" and psymeds.
Quote:


The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.

The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on one of his arms.

Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.

Cho was an English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service, the Associated Press reported.

Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when, or what the outcome was.

Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression. They are examining Cho's computer for more evidence.

According to court records, Virginia Tech Police issued a speeding ticket to Cho on April 7 for going 44 mph in a 25 mph zone, and he had a court date set for May 23.

www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070417vtech-shootings,1,17
6236.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true



So the triggering event was a bogus traffic ticket, from the same police state death squads who stood down for two hours while the killing spree took place...


"You can't stop the signal!"
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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:46 PM

ROJBLAKE


I'm not typically a conspiracy type, but I don't get some of this.

If one of the guns was obtained leagally, why file off the serial numbers & then keep the reciept?

If the guy has been in the country since he was 8 & his family owns a business here, why is he on a student visa?

If this was a rampage shooting why the delay between victims?

If this wasn't a terrorist act, why the (believed to be) connected bomb threats?

Why would the shooter kill himself before he even saw the police?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:59 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
You know how you can spot a Canadian in a crowd of USers? They walk with their heads up, looking around with interest. USers OTOH are defensive, furtive folk, used to trying to avoid being a target.


Not the Americans I know. Maybe you live in the wrong part of the country.
Quote:

Not ALL places are dangerous hostile little worlds. Some places are quite pacifist, nice places to visit, to work and live, actually. My question is - how does the US get from here to there.

And not all places in the US are dangerous or hostile.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-cap
ita

Maine has about the murder rate of the UK.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Well, yeah, the official story stinks, but my take on it is pure police incompetence, followed by an intense effort at butt covering thus leading to confusion.

My GUESS, and this only a guess, is that after the first shooting, the cops figured he was long gone, and did what cops usually do - grab the closest guy roughly matching the description and roughed him up while trying to pin it on him.
(Seen pics of em arresting someone, and I would be interested to know who..)

And then when more shootings happened, they responded with their usual ineffectiveness, cordoned off the area and hid behind cover.

Then when it was safe (for them!) to do so, moved in with the coroner team to clean up the mess.

That's only a guess, but I would lay good odds that at least some of the confusion comes from ass-covering attempts on behalf of the police force.

People look for great, grand, all encompassing conspiracies - but the truth of most matters is small petty ones that entertwine with incompetence and cluelessness.

I'd like to have the facts, but I doubt we'll ever get them.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:15 PM

ROJBLAKE


I agree that we'll never get the real story, in 3 days the poloticians will turn it into something else.

Columbine after 3 days...it's all about the guns; the bombs planted all over the school...dropped.

The DC Sniper...it became all about how they got a military style rifle...that they were islamic converts who altered their car into a killing machine worthy of Q-branch...forgotten.

The list goes on but I think you get the point.

The cops have to file so much paperwork whenever they even just pull a gun...let alone use it what do you expect.

Unless you're a federal agent in which case you can massacre people on a scale even larger than this tragedy...just drive a tank into a burning building insuring that nobody can get out & watch men, women, & children burn like candles.

Just make sure you get that budget increase!

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:39 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Geezer,

This is sort of interesting, but then, not really.

Murder and gun murder are 64% correlated.

When it comes to 'gun laws' I don't think the laws on the books mean much if they're not enforced. Not to shame any particular country, but there are many countries with great laws on the books that have nasty reputations as being extremely corrupt. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html

So rather than looking at gun laws, it would be more meaningful to correlate per capita number of guns with gun-related homicides. I think it would be VERY useful to be able to pull figures on per capita handguns v gun-related homicides.

And I thought there was an interesting omission in the charts and that was gun murder v modal income.

But since we are talking about the US, it stands far above any developed nation in gun-related homicides. What are the factors in the US that make it an elephantine exception to all other developed countries?
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Jamaica has very strict gun control laws, and a murder rate 7.7 times that of the US, generally referred to in media reports as "gun crimes" although I havent found any stats yet. Mexico also has many restrictions on firearms ownership (there's only one gun store in the whole country), yet 1.2 times the US firearms murder rate.

If you look at just murders per capita, regardless of weapon, there's a lot of countries on the list with stricter gun laws than the US where people apparently manage to kill each other at a much higher rate using something other than guns.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-cap
ita



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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 8:27 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I don't think it holds water.

"I have a robbers not welcome sign in front of my house, and I got robbed, so maybe I should put up TWO signs?"

Same basic argument.

If one law doesn't stop em, three or four more won't neither.

By their very nature, criminals do not respect the law, that is why we call them criminals, so adding more laws to bog down an already mired legal system and annoy decent folk has zero effect in this case, and the cumulative of zero, is still zero.

Let's see, nothin, inta nothin, carry the nothin...- Jayne Cobb

Since you seem interested in the statistical data, however, you could try HERE.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/
US Dept of Justice Statistics.

I dunno that they have anything relevant, but I guess it's worth a look.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm

Note the Brady Bill was passed in 1993.

-----------------------------------

The other way I could interpret gun bills is this - the laws are too fragmented from state to state and too full of loopholes, giving easy access to anyone with motivation. The house of straw isn't holding up. Maybe one needs a house of brick.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:05 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@FremdFirma:
"""
And I am beginning to believe that anyone who honestly, truly, has a problem with me carrying via that philosopy and with that express purpose.. is suffering from some level of mental illness.
"""

You're aware that by saying this you're proving my assertion that the US has a violent culture, right?


"""
Would you be willing to rent a place in the worst projects ghetto you could find, for a month, with a sign on the door stating
"This is a gun free home, firearms are not welcome here!"

Does that seem sensible ?
Logical ?
Do you think it would ensure your safety ?
"""

The ghettos that you refer to don't exist where I come from because I live in a civilized country. But, lets entertain this anyway.

This is a loaded question. What you're attempting to do here is present an exception to a rule as if it is a general truth because you know that there is only one answer and that answer supports your position. Sorry, but I'm not following you along that logical fallacy.


"""
It's the same principle, so don't be telling me it's "utter crap" unless you're willing to bet your very life on a "Gun Free Zone" to protect you.
"""

Actually, I'm not doing that at all. What I /am/ doing is betting that someone is not going to come around a corner and shoot me (*knocks on wood*). This is sound reasoning. And, I'm stating my opinion that I don't want people around me carrying firearms.

How this /does/ make me safer is that if I see a firearm, I KNOW that they aren't able to have one and I contact the proper authorities. But, if people are allowed to have one, then people carrying firearms becomes something that isn't reported and the possibility exists that a tragedy like this could go on even though it could have been stopped/made "less" tragic.


"""
The day I see such a barrier physically stop a criminal like a stone wall, I might start believing in it, but it makes as much sense as holding up a don't bite me sign in front of a freshly chummed shark and expecting it to stop him.
"""

Are you capable of intelligent discourse? Because saying things like this doesn't exactly lend to your favour.


"""
That's like blaming me, personally, for what this lunatic did, and I find that offensive in the extreme - if you think someone like me is contributing to the danger, you've got some serious problems upstairs.
"""

I'm not sure if you're aware that I said no such thing. I'm also not sure if you're aware that is a ridiculously irrational thing to say. Please only assume that I wrote what I wrote, not what the voices in your head tell you what I meant to continue on to.



"""
I also don't buy that a physical object, an inanimate THING, and a tool causes the problem - as you noted culture and society and social ills aplenty contribute to it, and either directly or indirectly cause it, sure, but a firearm in and of itself, never harmed anyone - and until the day I see one levitate off the table and blow a hole in someone, I categorically reject any attempt to blame the tool instead of the user.
"""

But, it does make things a hell of a lot worse now doesn't it. There is also, production defects that could cause premature firing. Not to mention guns going off in the gun rack while driving (this happens regularly). Do you honestly think that such things don't occur and that they haven't ever hurt anyone?

Btw, the way you pose the way in which you will change your opinion is again, loaded. It's designed so that you'll never have to change your mind nor bow to any logic no matter how solid it is, no matter how well reasoned and based on hard facts.


"""
I refuse to blind myself to the obvious and depend on naivety and hope to protect myself and those I care about, when there are tools available to ensure that safety as such as possible, nobody sees my toolbox, flashlight or fire extinguisher as a crime about to happen, why the bloody hell should they see my piece that way, I ask you ?
"""

Sophistry. A flashlight or fire extinguisher cannot kill someone at 30 paces in an instant.

I also don't want the possibility of being shot by people like you playing cowboy when you should be running and/or hiding.

Tell me, how do you think it would have played out if there were twenty people around with firearms? Because I really don't think that things would have gone well at all. The jackasses would have rushed toward the sound of the shots and when they saw each-other, they would have thought that everyone else is the shooter. Bad things would probably happened from there. And even if it didn't, how many innocent by-standards would be injured or killed by stray shots?

Are you willing to take responsibility for those deaths? Because you would stand the distinct possibility of going to jail for a long time for criminal negligence resulting in death. Btw, here good samaritan laws do not apply.


"""
You're welcome to protect yourself with nothing more than hope and faith, it's your life and yours to run as you see fit - but I choose to protect myself with something a bit more substantial,
"""

I don't need to protect myself because people aren't out to get me. Nor are they out to get anyone around me. Nor are they out to get anyone in the city that I currently live in.

But, for the record, I'm quite capable of protecting myself if the need arose. I don't expect that to happen though (*knocks on wood*).


"""
and the moment someone tries to take that from me, I question why - and come away not liking any of the answers.
"""

Paranoia does not become anyone.


"""
Until the day you can magically make gun toting criminals disappear from the earth, you can take your gun free zones and stuff em, because all that is, is wishful thinking and naivety, and THAT gets people killed.
"""

Wait a minute. You say, "That's like blaming me, personally, for what this lunatic did, and I find that offensive in the extreme - if you think someone like me is contributing to the danger, you've got some serious problems upstairs." and then you say the above.

Perhaps /you've/ got a "serious problems upstairs".

But, on the flip side, as soon as you can prove to me that "gun toting criminals" are a profound problem for everyone in society (a la getting mugged in NY city) I will regard your arguments as ones coming from a gun nut (i.e. something to be ignored). But, that's actually a reasonable question to ask now isn't it. You know, taking a reality based look at something to see if a proposed solution is of value when its pros and cons are weighed. Crazy idea I know, but works all the time. Trust me.


But, regarding your arguments in general, they had weight back when:

- there was no standing army
- there was no real police force
- people were all (by todays standards) psychotic

They don't really hold water today, because:

- there IS standing armies
- there IS real police forces
- people are generally NOT psychotic

Sorry, but I choose to live within todays reality. Not a couple centuries ago.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:31 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

Actually as I understand it more UK police can carry guns now, because their crime rate jumped, as did Australia...after they banned guns!




More isn't all and you have to look at the reasons why the police are carrying as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if the UK police are starting to carry for the reasons you gave. But, one must not underestimate the "fear factor" that the terrorism "argument" gives.

But, to analyze if the gun ban has anything to do with the gun ban, what kind of crime jumped? How long after? etc. Society is *way* too complex for there to be such a causal connection. So, until I see some evidence to the contrary, I'm going to assume that this is at most loosely coupled.


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

The US also has a higher level of personal freedom than many Europeean-socialist countries.




Then why is the US a major target of Amnesty International?

Take it from someone on the outside looking in, a US citizens personal freedoms that they /perceive/ they have are disturbingly less than what they actually have. There's the DMCA and Patriot Act for starters that severely cripple personal freedoms. The US also has a legal system that has more to do with how much more money one has than the laws themselves.


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

In the UK as I understand it you are taxed at 100% after a certain amount of money is obtained, which is why many UK actors & writers come to the US.




I'm pretty sure that you are completely wrong on this one. IMO the more likely reason why actors and writers from the UK (and else where) go to the US is earning potential. As in, in other parts of the world, actors/writers get paid reasonable wages, but in the US they /can/ get paid obscene amounts of money.


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

Like a 2 hour lull in activity? Like a half-mile geographic shift in location? If this was indeed the same shooter why the change?




Cat and mouse can take a while. Not wanting to get caught.

Let's go over that. The first shooting 2 people died. The next one was 30 dead. The people were still in class because the university didn't shut down classes. The university didn't think that there was a threat because some cop said the perp was miles away by then.

So basically, the university and this cop are to blame for 30 deaths. How many people here think that this will go unanswered and nothing will happen to these people?


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

If he just wanted to kill people then why not just kill folks in the dorm?




Can't kill people if you get caught. Perhaps he was looking for specific people, or specific types of people. Who knows how a crazy mind works.



Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

Also could someone explain to me how we have a 32 to 15 (18) dead to wounded ratio?




When people are lined up to be shot, accuracy goes up.


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

I'm not buying the official line on this...it don't smell right.




Definitely not. But, I don't think that it's in the way that you're implying.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:38 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Alliethorn7:

Well, why would someone try to rob folk at gunpoint when they can shoot back?




Logically speaking your right. But, here's where you're wrong. The criminal mind, someone who's going to rob at gun point, does _not_ obey logic.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:48 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

The 2nd amendment is about keeping control in the hands of citizens...not government.




LOL, you mean /was/. Because I'd really like to see any portion of the US population stand up to the US military and any and all police forces.


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

Most gun control measures work the same way, private security, permits, licences, bodyguards etc. allow monied individuals to violate "weapons resrictions" (even in Europe) while making the poorer classes defenceless.




Nonsense. Gun licenses are there to ensure that people know how to use and maintain a weapon. This is /very/ important from a safety point of view. Keeping guns off the streets means lessening accidental shootings. Keeping very powerful weapons in the hands of law enforcement and/or the military ensures very not intelligent people don't blow the neighbourhood up... literally.

Only allowing bodyguards, etc to carry is actually appropriate. Keep the guns in the hands of the people who are protecting, and try to keep the guns out of the ones trying to do the killing.

This is a public safety issue, not a paranoid conspiracy issue.

Remember, we are _not_ in the day of the musket anymore. Things have changed, thus so should the attitudes.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:49 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:

The hypocrisy on the issue inself is so thick you couldn't get a .50 cal BMG round through it.




What hypocrisy?!?!? I honestly think you are confusing gun control with keeping guns from citizens. The two are *very* different.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:54 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

If you look at just murders per capita, regardless of weapon, there's a lot of countries on the list with stricter gun laws than the US where people apparently manage to kill each other at a much higher rate using something other than guns.




So, you're implying that gun control isn't necessary because people can kill with weapons other than guns?

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:06 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

While I don't see it as my responsiblity to protect others, I can and will protect myself such as is reasonable and possible from for lack of a better word, baddies.




Sorry for saying so, but I have exactly zero confidence that you can do so without negatively effecting those in your line of fire, innocent or not. Go ahead and protect yourself in whatever way you want. But, as soon as it /is/ going to effect those around you, you have the responsibility to consider them.

As in, you may not have the responsibility to protect them from the danger that you will be protecting yourself from, but you have exactly the responsibility (and duty as a citizen) to protect them from yourself.


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Believe me, I'd *like* to live in a world where these kind of things don't happen, but as long as we do, I plan to ensure to the best of my ability that they don't happen to ME.

And what's so very wrong with that, then ?




That's an easy one given what you've just said. You see, there is no possible way that you can prevent these things from happening to you, period. Don't you see that carrying and using a firearm is /reactionary/. By definition a firearm can _not_ prevent. It can only be used to /react/ to a situation that has already happened!

And if you are as old and in as poor health as you imply, how exactly are you supposed to get "the drop" on someone who is likely to be in better health than you? Not to mention that they'll already be have there gun out and at the ready.

Don't you see that by pulling out your weapon (and possibly firing) your provoking an extremely dangerous reaction in an already dangerous situation? One that is more than just likely to cause people to be killed.

I honestly don't think that you've thought this through at all. Here's a clue. You're not the hero, and you're not going to save the day. You're going to get people killing by making that powder keg go off.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:13 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

You know how you can spot a Canadian in a crowd of USers? They walk with their heads up, looking around with interest. USers OTOH are defensive, furtive folk, used to trying to avoid being a target.

Not ALL places are dangerous hostile little worlds. Some places are quite pacifist, nice places to visit, to work and live, actually. My question is - how does the US get from here to there.




- Treatment not prison
- shifting priorities from self-centered to others
- starting to respect education
- move the society away from a military one
- get rid of Fundamentalist Christianity (i.e. Evangelical)

I could go on. There was many disturbing things I noticed when I lived in Berkeley. But, IMO, that'd be a great start. But, education is key for any of this to happen.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:22 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm

Note the Brady Bill was passed in 1993.




This makes sense. IMO, having strict gun laws makes it harder for the criminals to get them. Or at least it significantly increases the risk. Thus, the street price will go up making guns unavailable to a lot of people if only due to cost.


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

The other way I could interpret gun bills is this - the laws are too fragmented from state to state and too full of loopholes, giving easy access to anyone with motivation. The house of straw isn't holding up. Maybe one needs a house of brick.




Such as federal law that can't be easily countered by state law?

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:42 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Sig, you've been downright hostile and insulting to an offensive degree, unlike Rue who's actually discussing the matter, you have decided to take up an arbitrary, phoney, and hostile position based on some damned ridiculous assumptions of my intent and character.

I highly suggest you READ some of the posts I have made instead of classing me as some gung ho wannabe militia nutter while spouting off some idealistic position you've entrenched yourself in so firmly that no reason or reality will move you.

You wanna be an ass, that's fine, but i'm done discussing the matter with you due to your zealotry.


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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 1:58 AM

ROJBLAKE





Nonsense. Gun licenses are there to ensure that people know how to use and maintain a weapon. This is /very/ important from a safety point of view. Keeping guns off the streets means lessening accidental shootings. Keeping very powerful weapons in the hands of law enforcement and/or the military ensures very not intelligent people don't blow the neighbourhood up... literally.

Only allowing bodyguards, etc to carry is actually appropriate. Keep the guns in the hands of the people who are protecting, and try to keep the guns out of the ones trying to do the killing.



1) Licenses are a permission slip to do something that is otherwise illeagal.

2) Using this logic people who are poor become once again victims, serfs, & slaves (even if by other names)

3) Not once in all the years I've had a carry permit has anyone asked my about my level of training.

4) Not once in all the years that I've owned firearms have I ever shot at a living soul.

5) I have lived in a neighborhood where a good friend of mines apartment was broken into 3 times, & I got to sleep for 2 nights on the floor of the outer room with a shotgun for company because the police couldn't/wouldn't take action.

6) In the US because we do have a level of personal freedom everyone gets a free criminal act...& if it happens to be murder...

7) The Texas sniper all those years ago...ex marine, Lee Harvey Oswald..ex Marine, there are many other examples, they had a high level of training & were trusted by the government to use deadly force...yes?

8) The shooter (according to the official line) bought his guns leagally, therefore his name & background was run through the NCIC computers & the Government said it was ok to own a handgun

9) As to the world has changed comment...is it safer, does man no longer make war against his brother, do governments no longer seek to subjugate thier people, do men no longer kill/maim to posess women/land/wealth etc.?

10) Would you feel better if he drove an UPS truck packed with explosives into the lobby? (I can walk into any grocery store in the world & get the chemicals nessecasry to make 1 hekuva bomb)

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
When it comes to 'gun laws' I don't think the laws on the books mean much if they're not enforced. Not to shame any particular country, but there are many countries with great laws on the books that have nasty reputations as being extremely corrupt. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html


Not sure that this correlates directly to gun law enforcement, since corrupt governments usually don't want the general populace armed, but anyway.

Quote:

So rather than looking at gun laws, it would be more meaningful to correlate per capita number of guns with gun-related homicides. I think it would be VERY useful to be able to pull figures on per capita handguns v gun-related homicides.

Probably kind of hard to do, as capturing statistics on illegal gun ownership is kind'a tricky. For example, back in Jamaica, there are 65,000 registered guns, and 900 murders a year, most with guns(still looking for precise figures, but lets say 75%).
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20021123T230000-0500_35669_OB
S_LEGAL_GUN_SUPPLIES_DRY_UP.asp

In the US, the best estimate is about 200 million guns, and 8259 murders with firearms. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-f
irearms


So in Jamaica, one out of every 96 guns, on average, is used in a murder. In the US its one out of every 24000 or so.

But, you say, that only covers legally owned guns in Jamaica. Okay then, let's turn it around. figure 675 gun murders in Jamaica times the 24000 guns per murder of the US, and you get a bit over 16 million. There are 2.75 million people in Jamaica, or almost 6 guns per man, woman, and child. I suspect that the number of guns, legal and illegal, in Jamaica is somewhat less than that.

Somewhere in passing I also noticed that Finland has the third highest per capita gun ownership, after the US and Yemen, yet only 14% of murders in Finland are committed with guns.

Quote:

And I thought there was an interesting omission in the charts and that was gun murder v modal income.

I could swear I've sen that somewhere. I'll look around.

Quote:

But since we are talking about the US, it stands far above any developed nation in gun-related homicides. What are the factors in the US that make it an elephantine exception to all other developed countries?


If you just look at the numbers, the biggest bulges in groups who commit murder are by gender, race, and age.
We could reduce homicide 88.7% by getting rid of all the men.
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm
-or 65% by getting rid of everyone 18 thru 34 years old. http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/teens.htm
-or 54.1% by getting rid of everyone who's not white. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
-or we could have a total gun ban, which, to be effective, would require enforcement measures which would make the Patriot Act look like a license for anarchy.
-or we could give everyone a mandatory lie detector test monthly, to be reasonably sure they weren't planning to commit a crime.
-or we could strictly enforce all the local, state, and federal laws already on the books relating to use of a firearm in the commission of a crime, and build a bunch more prisons.
-or
-or
-or

You got an easy answer? I sure don't.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 4:18 AM

ROJBLAKE


Simple solution,

Lock everyone in a maximum security facility, plastic & paper tableware, slippers without laces etc.

You can have social interaction with other human beings only under close supervision & state sanction.

Let us just assume that everyone is a natural born killer (to an extent we are) & treat all people accordingly...oh wait wouldn't the guards & wardens etc. also be human?

I know let's build security robots & allow them to dictate the rules to us dumb animals (wasn't there a Trek episode like that?)

Let us build the hardware to prevent our hurting each other with hardware.

Let's implement "tool control" no more hammers (listen to the lyrics of Bang-Bang Maxwell), no more knives (Jack the Ripper et. al.), no more pencils or pens (the're sharp), no saws (particularly chain saws), certianly no nail guns.

Where do we stop?

When do we admit that there are those among us that are always going to commit atrocities, Jack-the-Ripper, Gengis Kahn, Adolph Hitler, Al Bundy, Jeffry Dahmer, Saddam Hussein, etc.; etc.; etc.

Remember too that those that want safety...if you sacrifice freedom for safety...you get/& deserve niether.

Just out of curiosity...does anyone out there really believe that if guns were ejected off the planet there wouldn't be any more murder?

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 4:33 AM

KHYRON


I take back what I said, I want Don Imus back in the headlines. Should've seen this completely pointless and irrelevant gun control debate being restarted as a result of the shootings.



"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 4:44 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Only allowing bodyguards, etc to carry is actually appropriate. Keep the guns in the hands of the people who are protecting, and try to keep the guns out of the ones trying to do the killing.


There were 15,000 student on that campus. One was a killer, the rest law abiding citizens. Campus rules don't allow students to have guns on campus, thus there were 15,000 unarmed law abiding citizens and one armed killer.

Now suppose a reasonable gun policy, one that ensured that only folk with clean records and some training could carry and that there was no campus rule banning guns. Even if only half of 1% chose to carry that would leave the killer outnumbered 75-1. Much better odds then before.

It is sad but true that one armed law abiding student or professor could possibly (although not likely) have stopped this killer. But five, ten, fifteen, the more law abiding persons armed the more likely lives are saved.

The other argument is for stricter laws...this person committed mass murder and suicide...don't think a felony gun violation would have been a big deterrent.

H

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:36 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


And it just gets weirder.

Quote:

BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) - The gunman blamed for the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history had previously been accused of stalking two female students at Virginia Tech and had been taken to a mental health facility in 2005 after an acquaintance worried he might be suicidal, police said Wednesday.

Cho Seung-Hui had concerned one woman enough with his calls and e-mail in 2005 that police were called in, said Police Chief Wendell Flinchum.

He said the woman declined to press charges, and neither woman was among the victims of Monday's massacre on the Virginia Tech campus.

During the stalking second incident, also in late 2005, the department received a call from an acquaintance of Cho's who was concerned that he might be suicidal, and Cho was taken to a mental health facility, Flinchum said. About the same time, in fall 2005, Cho's professor informally shared some concerns about the young man's writing but no official report was filed, he said.


http://wtop.com/?nid=644&sid=1116587

So if either of the two women had pressed stalking charges that led to a conviction or a restraining order, Cho would have popped up on the NICS instant check when he tried to buy a gun, and been turned down (and probably arrested).

Also, if someone had followed through on the questions of his sanity and he had been involuntarily committed, he'd have shown up on NICS for that.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics.htm



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:47 AM

MARINA


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

The world is a dangerous place and to pretend otherwise is pure madness, so there's nothing wrong with taking reasonable, rational precautions to mitigate those risks, it's no different than carrying a spare tire in your trunk - it's something you'd rather not need, but the realities of life make it wise to do.



I'm not going to weigh in on the gun control debate, but one point that hasn't been mentioned: Don't you think the size of his weapons (i.e. handguns) allowed him to conceal them and be less conspicuous than if he'd had, say, a rifle? Which thereby allowed him to walk around campus and up and down hallways without anyone seeming to realize he was armed? If handguns were really hard to get, criminals like this guy – no previous criminal record, no "underworld" connections, no drug running or gang activity – would probably have to get hunting guns (etc), which makes you a visible threat LONG before you actually begin firing. Of course some criminals will find guns, just like some guys from VICE showed up at an arms market and bought a dirty bomb, but having concealed weapons as opposed to visible weapons is probably more dangerous, even when taking into account one's desire to protect him/herself.

That said, Frem, I think you present yourself articulately and intelligently, even when I disagree with you. Way to lend some legitimacy to the RWDF.


Don't make faces.

http://amaranton.wordpress.com

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The US also has a higher level of personal freedom than many Europeean-socialist countries. In the UK as I understand it you are taxed at 100% after a certain amount of money is obtained, which is why many UK actors & writers come to the US.
The US has a higher level of ECONOMIC "freedom". But if you have to carry a gun, are frightened of 10% of the people you meet, can't go into large parts of the city, lock your doors and windows at night and install a security system... how free are you?


---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:29 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


CELLPHONE VIDEO OF SHOOTINGS AT VA TECH: NO POLICE SIRENS, NO PUBLIC ADDRESS WARNINGS
www.liveleak.com/view?i=f59_1176748483

Student bloggers blamed Virginia Tech president, police and ban on guns for the tragedy:
http://thewtfblog.blogspot.com
www.collegemedia.com
www.planetblacksburg.com

Cathy O'Brien was a CIA mind-controlled presidential-model sex slave. She and her daughter Kelly were models for River Tam in Firefly/Serenity. Old news.

Cathy O'Brien knows all about Blacksburg Virginia, the little town where giant Virginia tech is located. They wrote about it in their 2nd autobiography, ACCESS DENIED FOR REASONS OF NATIONAL SECURITY, about her daughter Kelly being lobotomized by Vanderbilt University Medical Center, under court order in Knoxville Tennessee (my home city).

Quote:


From Mark & Cathy - April 16, 2007
www.Trance-Formation.com

Hi ... sadly ... though predictably ... it is major D.C. diversion time again to focus folks away from what Congress and the Executive branch are infighting about today: More $ for the wars being waged against countries that have never done anything against the US.

Below this intro are some direct quotes from our book "ACCESS DENIED"...about a tiny little town in Virginia ... Blacksburg we felt strongly would eventually become "news"!

WHY.... because Blacksburg houses (underground in the side of a local Blacksburg mountain!) the best kept US government's ABOVE TOP SECRET laboratory for developing/applying (as in Cathy's case) such weapons such as human robotic mind control programming.

Ask yourself... "how ironic" that a tiny little town, as disclosed about in ACCESS DENIED in Virginia could HOST the worst school massacre in US history on a day of extreme importance that a so called "showdown between Congress and the Pentagon/Executive Branch" over the war funding and pulling our troops out ... to most likely divert the people's attention away from what is being perpetrated against all of u.s.

PLEASE consider why we entitled this chapter (22) (your) "NEED-TO-KNOW"!

Please, we beg of you ... consider today ... do it now ... strongly recommending our book "ACCESS DENIED For Reasons Of National Security" to everyone on your mailing list as a MUST READ NOW ... as they have a "need-to-know the facts that support why we include such "notable mention" of Blacksburg, Va., population 48,595 minus 31.

From "ACCESS DENIED For Reasons OF National Security" , chapter 22, page 160, 2nd edition

Cathy: What’s DARPA?

Mark: Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency[1]. It’s the most Top Secret special weapons development lab in the world.

Cathy: I’m glad I don’t know about that one.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From "ACCESS DENIED For Reasons OF National Security" , chapter 22, page 161, 2nd edition

Below is the exact recorded dialog between Mark & Cathy while driving to a Washington D.C. speaking engagement.

Mark: You’ve talked about, only not by name. It’s in a sleepy little town in Virginia.

Cathy: Oh, that place, I shuddered. I guess I didn’t Need-to-Know the name when I was there. Isn’t it called Blackbeard or Blackbird or something like that?

Mark: Keep looking until you see a road sign in memory.

Cathy: Blacksburg!

Mark: Yes! I was aware of it when I was couriering file tapes for Ampex. My perception of DARPA is that it holds the key to what is eroding the soul of America- and the world. Everything I know may still be classified.

Cathy: Then I won’t ask you what you saw. I said, aware that laws of Sedition could result in his imprisonment if anyone found out he was talking.

(footnote on page 161) [1] Wear anti-virus firewalls if/when seeking further information online regarding DARPA!

Thank you, for your time to read this and pass it along to everyone you know ... and for your help to reach ones who are not so well informed as you.

Peace,
Mark & Cathy
www.trance-formation.com



Naked Cathy O'Brien and Kelly were hunted by Dick Cheney's Most Dangerous Game before he raped them and murdered US special forces soldiers via suicide under mind control by asking them to jump out of helicopters without parachutes
www.archive.org/details/tmdg_trailer
www.archive.org/details/tmdg_broll
www.gnn.tv/videos/3/The_Most_Dangerous_Game

Cheney Impeachment delayed by convenient school shooting: Dennis Kucinich officially filed charges of impeachment
http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=15&t=28239

Neo-Cons To Spin VA Massacre As Terrorist Attack:
Korean (is not Koran) shooter allegedly carved Islamic "Ismail Ax" in his dead arm (or somebody did)
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/180407terroristattack.htm

Quote:


"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated. The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective. Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electrical stimulation of the brain."
-Dr. Jose Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry, Yale University Medical School prof and CIA mind control scientist, Congressional Record, No 26, vol 118 February 24th, 1974


And this Jewish CIA electrical engineer professor at Virginia Tech was playing psycho surgery with student's brains:
Quote:


Curriculum Vitae for F.W. Romberg

EDUCATION

Medical School, Fall 2006 Entrance, Details TBD

Postbaccalaureate Prehealth Professions Program Certificate, Occidental College, 2005
Completed 16 semester units of biology and organic chemistry coursework and laboratories in preparation for entrance to medical school
Advisor: Prof. Chris Craney

Masters of Science, Electrical Engineering, California Institute of Technology (Caltech), 2000
Primary coursework and research in high frequency circuits and electromagnetics
Caltech Microelectronics Group, Advisor: Prof. Ali Hajimiri

Bachelors of Science, Electrical Engineering, Virginia Tech, 1995
Mobile and Portable Radio Research Group, Advisor: Prof. Brian Woerner

Experienced Electrical Engineer with Strong Leadership and Mechanical Background is Applying Skills to a Medical Career with a Surgical Specialty

Cognizant Engineer, Planetary Aerobot Testbed (PAT), 1996–97
Responsible for the development of a low-cost communications solution using COTS hardware; provided RF communications for video and flight data links supporting robotic balloon (Aerobot) flights in California and Hawaii that tested possible Mars atmospheric entry technologies

UNITED NATIONS, Baghdad, Iraq
Weapons Inspector, Office of the Special Commission (UNSCOM), 1997
Given my acquired knowledge of the Scud, a former Soviet-made missile modified by Iraq, I volunteered for an overseas assignment for about a six week period in Baghdad, Iraq and various parts of France. I was on loan to the United Nations by the US federal government to provide technical expertise of the four variants of the Scud missile used by Iraq in the Persian Gulf War. My specific purpose was to participate in an international UNSCOM mission to verify the destruction of fuel and oxidizer as claimed by the Iraqi government in connection with the implementation of Section C of the United Nations Security Council resolutions 687 and 715(1991).

CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY (CIA), Langley, Virginia
CITO RF Technologist, Clandestine Information Technology Office, Hardware Systems Team, 1998
Management of RF and analog hardware design tasks were performed to support foreign intelligence operations of interest to national security; extensive fieldwork and foreign travel; tasks were conducted while on a JPL LOA

CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY (CIA), Langley, Virginia
Foreign Military Weapons Analyst, Office of Transnational Issues (OTI), Missile Systems Team, 1997
Three month position as Foreign Military Weapons Analyst; general areas of technical knowledge include liquid propulsion, guidance and control, payloads, missile integration, and flight test systems of specific foreign ballistic missiles; tasks were conducted while on JPL LOA

VIRGINIA POLYTECHNIC AND STATE UNIVERSITY, Blacksburg, Virginia
Undergraduate Student Research Assistant, Mobile and Portable Radio Research Group (MPRG), 1995
Completed an engineering project to design and demonstrate spread spectrum modem capabilities; a complete programmable digital spread spectrum transmitter and receiver was delivered for research use

VIRGINIA POLYTECHNIC AND STATE UNIVERSITY, Blacksburg, Virginia
Undergraduate Student Research Assistant, Satellite Communications Group, 1992-93
Functioned as a student team member to design and deliver earth stations for NASA’s Advanced Communication Technology Satellite (ACTS); responsibilities included performing machining tasks and documenting the design and assembly of the prototype earth station using CADD tools

www.romberg.us/html/Pages/CurriculumVitae.html


Student and faculty are appalled that CIA stalks students at Virginia Tech, for perping kidnapping, torture and mass murder.

Quote:


"The single shooter was unusally effective at killing, almost as if he had been trained to do so." --mparent7777

CIA recruiting at Virginia Tech

For the second time this year, the Central Intelligence Agency will be coming to Virginia Tech to recruit students. And for the second time this year, they will be met with protests from students who view the CIA as an immoral organization that engages in torture and murder.

On November 2nd, 2005 the Washington Post published an article entitled “CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons”. The article reported that the CIA has set up a covert network of secret prisons and interrogation centers, known as “black sites”, in several countries around the world, including several democracies in Eastern Europe and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Prisoners at these facilities are held indefinitely and often in isolation, without due process of the law. Moreover, CIA interrogators working at these sites are permitted to use the CIA's approved "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques," some of which are prohibited by the U.N. convention and by U.S. military law. Among the tactics approved for use are "waterboarding", intended to induce in prisoners the idea that they are drowning.

While intelligence officials defend the unrestricted operation of these sites as necessary for the successful defense of the country, it should be noted that both the sites and the suspected practices carried out at them would be illegal if operated within the USA, which is a signatory to the U.N. Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Importantly, the same is true for the democratic host states in Eastern Europe where some of these sites are located.

The 'Teach In' will take place on Thursday, Nov. 17, 5-6.30pm, in Torgerson 3100. The event will feature talks by Virginia Tech instructors and the presentation of a draft letter to President Steger's office, signed by a number of concerned Virginia Tech faculty and students.

The letter will request that Virginia Tech place a moratorium on all CIA activities on Virginia Tech's campus until such time as a thorough and independent investigation certifies that the organization has been thoroughly reformed and no longer engages in practices that contravene international law and basic standards of human rights.

The CIA's scheduled 'career information' session will take place at 7pm in the same location.

Sponsoring campus organizations include: The International Club and Amnesty International at Virginia Tech."

http://blogs.roanoke.com/campuswatch/archives/cia_recruiting.html
www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1263


George Bush, the Bin Ladens and the Queen of England now own Serenity via Pentagon CIA contractor Carlyle Group (aka Blue Sun), which staged a successful hostile takeover of Universal Studios. Carlyle's propaganda division also includes NBC News and MSNBC. Jr Bush's convicted Nazi grandfather Prescott Bush was on the board of CBS News.


"'They're hurting us. Get me out!' The Government was playing with her brain. They opened up her skull and cut into her brain. The only reason you do that is to lobotomize somebody. They did it over, and over..."
-Dr Simon Tam, Firefly

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556

www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

PNTV banned at Gitmo!
www.piratenews.org/hollywood.html


Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:42 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Only allowing bodyguards, etc to carry is actually appropriate. Keep the guns in the hands of the people who are protecting, and try to keep the guns out of the ones trying to do the killing.


There were 15,000 student on that campus. One was a killer, the rest law abiding citizens. Campus rules don't allow students to have guns on campus, thus there were 15,000 unarmed law abiding citizens and one armed killer.

Now suppose a reasonable gun policy, one that ensured that only folk with clean records and some training could carry and that there was no campus rule banning guns. Even if only half of 1% chose to carry that would leave the killer outnumbered 75-1. Much better odds then before.

It is sad but true that one armed law abiding student or professor could possibly (although not likely) have stopped this killer. But five, ten, fifteen, the more law abiding persons armed the more likely lives are saved.



H



In an ideal world that would be true. In the real world things get confused. Just off the top of my head I can see...

Student's shooting at students, each thinking the other is the killer.

Students being hit by "friendly" fire in shootouts between students and the perp/other students.

Police shooting armed students mistaking them for the perp.

And that's before we consider accidents and drunk frat boys settling issues with guns.

I know you're a prosecutor but I wonder if you speak to many cops on this issue? I married into a Chicago Cop family. My father in law believes in people having guns for home protection is a good thing -- though it complicates responding to some domestic or burglary calls. However, he dislikes carry permits because amateurs waving guns about are the last things cops want to have to deal with when responding to a call. Not only does it make it harder to ID the perp, the chances of armed civilian shooting cop, cop shooting armed civilian or civilian shooting innocent bystander skyrocket.








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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:46 AM

ROJBLAKE



Quote:

The US also has a higher level of personal freedom than many Europeean-socialist countries. In the UK as I understand it you are taxed at 100% after a certain amount of money is obtained, which is why many UK actors & writers come to the US.
The US has a higher level of ECONOMIC "freedom". But if you have to carry a gun, are frightened of 10% of the people you meet, can't go into large parts of the city, lock your doors and windows at night and install a security system... how free are you?



If you live that way, you have a valid point.

There is a difference between living in fear & taking precautions.

Isreal has long had such problems, the UK has suffered such issues, terrorism has touched most countries.

The US has long suffered from the aspects of Terrorism, the vast majority of the US is simply unaware that we have had terrorist groups in this country since at least the end of our "Civil War".

We just don't call it that because it's inconvienient.

Caution is advisable no matter where you live, no country in the world can provide it's people with adequate "protection" it's a simple truth, I don't advocate being forever afraid, nor do I advocate the idea that "we the people" will ever be truly safe either...it's a fine line perhaps, but it's an important distinction.

Consider the fact that 32 people out of approx. 15,000 were murdered the other day...the odds were much greater that you weren't murdered than were.

Look at the incident this way...there were 14,966 survivors, not bad really.

I don't think it's much comfort to those that died or their families though, I also don't think the press would ever put it that way, do you?

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:43 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But if you have to carry a gun, are frightened of 10% of the people you meet, can't go into large parts of the city, lock your doors and windows at night and install a security system... how free are you?



Apparently freer in the US than most of Europe.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_per_of_saf_bur-crime-perception-
of-safety-burglary


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_per_of_saf_wal_in_dar-crime-perc
eption-safety-walking-dark


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 1:01 PM

FLETCH2


This is perception of crime not actual crime statistics themselves. A kid gets shot in London and it's national news, a kid gets shot in Dallas and it's so commonplace that it might come second to a local council meeting on the local newscast.

Besides these figures are for 2000 when Clinton was still president, before 9/11 and when the economy was better in the US than in Europe. Wonder what it would look like with more modern figures?

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:09 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
This is perception of crime not actual crime statistics themselves. A kid gets shot in London and it's national news, a kid gets shot in Dallas and it's so commonplace that it might come second to a local council meeting on the local newscast.


That's what SignyM's issue was, perception of crime - fear of crime.

Quote:

Besides these figures are for 2000 when Clinton was still president, before 9/11 and when the economy was better in the US than in Europe. Wonder what it would look like with more modern figures?


Probably not too different. Fear of terrorism is different from fear of normal crime.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:30 PM

FLETCH2


The problem with this survey is that it's too vague. Did you ask people in cities or people in the country? Did you ask folks on the same day or different times of year? Had there been any event in the area you surveyed before you conducted it.

I knew a girl in college that would not go out a night during the winter, which meant in effect she tried to find someone to walk her back to her dorm any time after 4PM in November. In the summer it would get as dark around 10PM but she was happy to walk home alone at that time, I suspect because being warmer there were more people on the streets and she felt safer.

So, had you surveyed her in June 2000 she would probably have told you she felt safe on the street at night, asked in November she would say something different.

People become aclimatised to things. In the UK we lived with IRA bombings often targeting public spaces like stores and train stations. However after a while people wise up and do the math, if a million people pass though Waterloo in a day and an IRA bomb kills 20, the chances of you dying are staggeringly remote. Consequently even after a bombing people continued to do what they usually did. They were used to it. I was on one of the first flights out of DFW to San Franscisco when air service started after 9/11. There were 13 paying passengers of all classes on my flight. In SF the streets were relatively deserted --- you could ride the cable cars without queing. In the suburban area the malls were almost deserted because someone had said that they could be a target.

I doubt if you had asked many Americans if they felt safe at that time they would have said yes. This doesn't mean Brits are braver than Americans, just that repeated exposure means you do the maths and get on with living. Terrorism is so rare in the US it is uncalcuable (or was at that time) people feared the unknown. Likewise violent crime of the magnitude seen in US cities is unknown in Europe, so people fear it because their exposure is too low for them to have done the math. In contrast most Americans in big cities have done the math, take precautions and go about their business.




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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:30 PM

FLETCH2


The problem with this survey is that it's too vague. Did you ask people in cities or people in the country? Did you ask folks on the same day or different times of year? Had there been any event in the area you surveyed before you conducted it.

I knew a girl in college that would not go out a night during the winter, which meant in effect she tried to find someone to walk her back to her dorm any time after 4PM in November. In the summer it would get as dark around 10PM but she was happy to walk home alone at that time, I suspect because being warmer there were more people on the streets and she felt safer.

So, had you surveyed her in June 2000 she would probably have told you she felt safe on the street at night, asked in November she would say something different.

People become aclimatised to things. In the UK we lived with IRA bombings often targeting public spaces like stores and train stations. However after a while people wise up and do the math, if a million people pass though Waterloo in a day and an IRA bomb kills 20, the chances of you dying are staggeringly remote. Consequently even after a bombing people continued to do what they usually did. They were used to it. I was on one of the first flights out of DFW to San Franscisco when air service started after 9/11. There were 13 paying passengers of all classes on my flight. In SF the streets were relatively deserted --- you could ride the cable cars without queing. In the suburban area the malls were almost deserted because someone had said that they could be a target.

I doubt if you had asked many Americans if they felt safe at that time they would have said yes. This doesn't mean Brits are braver than Americans, just that repeated exposure means you do the maths and get on with living. Terrorism is so rare in the US it is uncalcuable (or was at that time) people feared the unknown. Likewise violent crime of the magnitude seen in US cities is unknown in Europe, so people fear it because their exposure is too low for them to have done the math. In contrast most Americans in big cities have done the math, take precautions and go about their business.




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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

While I don't see it as my responsiblity to protect others, I can and will protect myself such as is reasonable and possible from for lack of a better word, baddies.




Sorry for saying so, but I have exactly zero confidence that you can do so without negatively effecting those in your line of fire, innocent or not. Go ahead and protect yourself in whatever way you want. But, as soon as it /is/ going to effect those around you, you have the responsibility to consider them.

As in, you may not have the responsibility to protect them from the danger that you will be protecting yourself from, but you have exactly the responsibility (and duty as a citizen) to protect them from yourself.


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Believe me, I'd *like* to live in a world where these kind of things don't happen, but as long as we do, I plan to ensure to the best of my ability that they don't happen to ME.

And what's so very wrong with that, then ?




That's an easy one given what you've just said. You see, there is no possible way that you can prevent these things from happening to you, period. Don't you see that carrying and using a firearm is /reactionary/. By definition a firearm can _not_ prevent. It can only be used to /react/ to a situation that has already happened!

And if you are as old and in as poor health as you imply, how exactly are you supposed to get "the drop" on someone who is likely to be in better health than you? Not to mention that they'll already be have there gun out and at the ready.

Don't you see that by pulling out your weapon (and possibly firing) your provoking an extremely dangerous reaction in an already dangerous situation? One that is more than just likely to cause people to be killed.

I honestly don't think that you've thought this through at all. Here's a clue. You're not the hero, and you're not going to save the day. You're going to get people killing by making that powder keg go off.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"



Hey Frem.... This all sounds so familiar. Oh, I know! Doesn't this whole post seem like any arguement that people have against smoking and smokers too?

Fascists that spew this bile and their diseased mindsets infecting soccer moms and kids are the true terrorists in this country.

The cops were all over that one. They took care of it so fast that the perp was able to go across campus and kill a bunch more people.

Give my thanks to Rosie and Oprah for the families of the second wave of people who died SigmaNunki.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
The problem with this survey is that it's too vague. Did you ask people in cities or people in the country? Did you ask folks on the same day or different times of year? Had there been any event in the area you surveyed before you conducted it.


You could ask the UN to do another one. currently, it's the best they got. Here's the survey and the explanation of their methodology.
http://ruljis.leidenuniv.nl/group/jfcr/www/icvs/Index.htm

Quote:

I knew a girl in college that would not go out a night during the winter...

I knew a woman who wouldn't leave her home at any time. She was afraid of germs.

My point was that I didn't know any of the "...have to carry a gun, are frightened of 10% of the people you meet, can't go into large parts of the city, lock your doors and windows at night and install a security system..." people that SignyM thinks Americans have become. If SignyM perceives things that way, I have no control over it, but I also see no evidence of it where I live.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:16 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RojBlake:
Actually as I understand it more UK police can carry guns now, because their crime rate jumped, as did Australia...after they banned guns!

Maybe, but SO19 and Special Branch are a big part of britains domestic anti-terror responce, which I would suspect is a more credible reason for having more officers, assuming you're right I've not seen the figures. Also most of that crime spike was things like vandalism, though I'm sure NRA massaged figures will take anything as a sign guns make right. There's probably been more gun crime since tightening the ban, since you know owning one is now a crime. But the small fact that most of the increase is down too arresting people with illegal weapons is something you don't want know when you're trying to prove guns are good. Best to just say 'gun crime' .
Quote:

The US also has a higher level of personal freedom than many Europeean-socialist countries.
If you say so, have you ever actually been to a 'European-socialist' country or is this just what the extreme right-wing blogs say?
Quote:

In the UK as I understand it you are taxed at 100% after a certain amount of money is obtained, which is why many UK actors & writers come to the US.
Err, no the maximum tax bracket is 40%:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/BeginnersGuideTo
Tax/DG_4015566


And secondly I imagine that the reason a MINORITY of British actors and writers go to the US is because of Hollywood, at a guess mind. I imagine the reason it seems to so many is because so many British Actors and Writers are so good.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:55 AM

SIGMANUNKI


@Fremdfirma:

I find it funny that as soon as I bring in reality to the mix (e.g. my bringing up the repercussions to the actions that you say your willing to take) you try to take the high road. Sorry, but after /your/ reply to my first post here (saying I have problems upstairs and my "wishful" thinking gets people killed), what your doing is just hypocrisy and a cop-out.

Not to mention this post /you/ /made/:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=28261#482241
"""
The shrink screwed the pooch on this one, they ARE compelled to do so, and he/she dropped the ball - take issue with that instead of whining.

And next time you shoot off your mouth, maybe load your brain first, cause it's the empty weapon that fires the loudest.

"""


@RojBlake:

"""
1) Licenses are a permission slip to do something that is otherwise illeagal.
"""

Um, where exactly do you get that? It's NOT illegal to own a gun, nor is it illegal to carry a gun. It's just illegal to do these things under certain specific conditions. This is *very* different than what you just said.


"""
2) Using this logic people who are poor become once again victims, serfs, & slaves (even if by other names)
"""

Saying things doesn't make it true. Hell, your not even justifying your position.


"""
3) Not once in all the years I've had a carry permit has anyone asked my about my level of training.
"""

Because they assume you have been trained properly. That's part of what a permit means. But, at the same time, just because you have a permit it doesn't mean that you have proper judgement, nor does it mean you're able to act (or act properly) under the extreme pressure similar to the one that started this discussion in the first place. Nor does it mean that by taking such action, it will make the situation better. In fact, by any reasoning, such actions would make the situation worse.


"""
4) Not once in all the years that I've owned firearms have I ever shot at a living soul.

5) I have lived in a neighborhood where a good friend of mines apartment was broken into 3 times, & I got to sleep for 2 nights on the floor of the outer room with a shotgun for company because the police couldn't/wouldn't take action.
"""

Um, why are you even bringing this up? Owning a shotgun wouldn't be restricted under reasonable gun control laws nor would it be restricted to have it in the home. Also, the main issue here is the carrying a concealed weapon thing, which isn't exactly in your example


"""
6) In the US because we do have a level of personal freedom everyone gets a free criminal act...& if it happens to be murder...
"""

What the hell are you taking about?


"""
7) The Texas sniper all those years ago...ex marine, Lee Harvey Oswald..ex Marine, there are many other examples, they had a high level of training & were trusted by the government to use deadly force...yes?
"""

You're going to have to help me with your point here. Because this stuff just re-enforces my opinion that your system is broken and it needs to be fixed with proper gun control measures. And with your examples, additionally, *far* better methods of psychological evaluation.


"""
8) The shooter (according to the official line) bought his guns leagally, therefore his name & background was run through the NCIC computers & the Government said it was ok to own a handgun
"""

So, you're pointing out a flaw in your system and saying that it doesn't need to be fixed then?


"""
9) As to the world has changed comment...is it safer, does man no longer make war against his brother, do governments no longer seek to subjugate thier people, do men no longer kill/maim to posess women/land/wealth etc.?
"""

What the hell are you talking about?


"""
10) Would you feel better if he drove an UPS truck packed with explosives into the lobby? (I can walk into any grocery store in the world & get the chemicals nessecasry to make 1 hekuva bomb)
"""

What are you talking about?!?!?


Dude, over half of what you said didn't make any sense. Please better proof your posts before you post them.


@Hero:

You're assuming that the odds are going to put those with guns within reach of the perp. You're also assume that having people with guns around would help and not hurt the situation i.e. you're assuming stray bullets aren't going to hurt anyone and that those with the guns are going to be able to tell each-other from the perp. You're also using a corner case to justify a general position. This isn't exactly sound logic.

Also, gun control isn't a deterrent. It's about making guns harder to obtain for those that we don't want to have them, yet still allowing those that are stable enough to have them get them. Canada and other countries have done a good job at this. Sure it isn't perfect, but it's better than the effective free-for-all that the US has in place right now.


@6ixStringJack:

I was wondering when you'd show up and call me a terrorist. Funny how people like you just ridicule instead of actually addressing the reality of the situation that I bring up.

Tell me, how exactly is pulling a gun on someone who is already at the ready going to "save the day"? i.e. reality isn't a John Wayne movie.

And btw, if you read my above posts, you'd know that if I had my say, classes would have been canceled for at least that day i.e. the second shooting wouldn't have happened as the campus would have been evacuated.

Here's another question for the US'ers here, what does how this situation played out say about the mentality of your society in general. I mean seriously, a shooting occurred and it was perceived so lightly that the day went on as normal when the perp wasn't found?!?!?

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:22 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Ain't discussin CCW with you Sigma, you're an unreasonable zealot about it in my opinion, and it would be a waste.

But one thing I really need to point out to you is one damn simple fact you're not taking into account.

YOU. DO. NOT. LIVE. HERE.

So don't be telling me how safe you are, where you are, and then deriding me, who lives somewhere else that isn't, that I should not take measures to mitigate that.

Would you reccommend disarmament to someone in Rwanda, because you think they are safe from the nice long distance you are viewing it from ?

You've stated your position, fine, I don't agree with you, you don't have to agree with me, and I left it at that, but you still feel some all fired need to press an attack - why ?

You might call upon some of the other posters who did discuss the matter reasonably with me instead of making jackass assumptions and see if they agree with your idiotic perception that I am some kind of wacko nut job.

But no, you wanna sling insults cause I won't play your game and listen to you insult me while ignoring most if not all of what I say, well that's too bad, I don't play that game with others around here, and I sure as hell won't play it with you.

I got my position, you got yours, have the damn decency to agree to disagree, and until you live and work in the same places I do, don't be applying your standards to me.

-Frem


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Thursday, April 19, 2007 3:23 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


MORE PROOF OF US GANGSTA GOVT HITMAN AT VA TECH


Welcome to Virginia Tech, but leave your firearms at home

Quote:


“Your consistently correct attitude and demeanor ensured the ultimate success of this program. Your leadership and perseverance was instrumental in fostering a sense of teamwork and initiative among fellow staff members and airport stakeholders alike. We Protect: Dept of Defense Facilities and Military Installations."
-McNeil Technologies, CIA employer of sister of Korean VA Tech shooter
www.mcneilsecurity.com



Nice touch for Gangsta Govt to stand down (just like 9/11), and let the hitman mail out his DVD collection to NBC News (owned by Georges Bush, Bin Ladens, British prime ministers and Queen of England at Carlyle Group), kill an extra 30 people and self destruct, before he could be questioned about his controllers.

Quote:


VIDEO: VA TECH SHOOTER GIVES NBC ALL THE PROFITS:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1261402,00.html

VIDEO: PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON-BLYTHE ROCKEFELLER CONFESSES TO US GOVT MIND CONTROL PROGRAMS THAT KILL PEOPLE



Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments (ACHRE)
http://gwis.circ.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/radiation/

ACHRE was created by President Clinton on January 15, 1994 to investigate and report on the use of human beings as subjects of federally funded research.



Funny how these lone nuts have perfect finances, and never attack their capos in Gangsta Govt.

Funny how they are expert at using firearms to kill people, far exceeding the skills and kills of a typical hunter or soldier. The VA Tech shooter only used a 22-caliber handgun to kill most victims, with 3 shots each, TAKING ONLY ONE SECOND TO RELOAD MAGAZINES, according to this eyewitness survivor:

Quote:


Survivor: 'A Stench Of Death In Classroom'

A survivor of the college shootings, Garrett Evans, describes the horrifying moment when Cho Seung-Hui entered the classroom he was in and shot his fellow students. (1 min 38)

Sky News Video
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1261175,00.html


VIDEO: Charles Mesloh, Professor of Criminology at Florida Gulf Coast University, told NBC 2 News that he was shocked Cho could have killed 32 people with two handguns absent expert training, with a "60% fatality rate, that's unheard of with a 9mm - a 22 is for plinking at cans". Mesloh immediately assumed that Cho must have used a shotgun or an assault rifle. "I'm dumbfounded by the number of people he managed to kill with these weapons," said Mesloh, "The shooter performed like a pro. The only thing I can figure is that he got close to them and he simply executed them."


www.infowars.com/articles/us/va_tech_shooter_was_mind_controlled_assas
sin.htm




Was the shooter employed as a professional killer by Uncle Scam in US Marine Corps and/or college ROTC? ROTC scholarships require a signed contract to join the military after graduation, plus basic training camp during summer break at college.


WIKIPEDIA: "Cho in 2007. Source from friend"
Cho Seung Hui - The Chosen One with Mossad?
US Marine chosen by the Illuminati for Project Manchuria at VA Tech?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cho_Seung-hui
www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ll_chat&Number=295424943&
t=-1



Parents in the Korean mafia? Sex slavery, heroin, murder, etc for CIA and Bush Crime Family? The shooter of President Reagan, John Hinkley Jr, was a family friend of the Bush Crime Family, whose father ran CIA's World Vision mind control camp, that also employed the killer of John Lennon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinkley

How many poor immigrant families send their rich kids to Ivy League college, to work for CIA?

Quote:


Sister of Virginia gunman belongs to Class of 2004

By Michael Juel-Larsen
Princetonian Senior Writer
April 18, 2007

Though Monday's shootings at Virginia Tech had already cast a shadow over campus, the news yesterday morning that the gunman's older sister is a recent Princeton alumna brought the tragedy even closer to home. Sun-Kyung Cho '04 was an economics major who interned at the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok during the summer before her senior year and wrote briefly for The Daily Princetonian. She now works as a "State Department contractor," The Washington Post reported yesterday, and was listed on Princeton's alumni directory as living in Centreville, Va., with her parents.

www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/04/18/news/18129.shtml



So Bush Jr's nappy-headed ho Kinda Sleazy Rice is the boss of the sister of VA Tech shooter... His sister also works as a CIA contractor McNeil Technologies... You know, those nice CIA people who provided "airport security" on 9/11...

Even the shooter wrote college plays about killing his pedophile daddy, and killing his teachers, which was exactly what VA Tech wants from its zombie students...

Quote:


Virginia Tech Shooting: I’ve Already Seen Enough

www.cryptogon.com

I thought that I should designate a single post to all of the Virginia Tech related analysis, to parse out some of the key signals from the noise. Within 30 minutes of actually sitting down to read about the incident, I had already seen enough.

At first, I was looking for—and found—indications of trauma induced mind control.

Let’s look at Sun-Kyung, Cho’s sister:

Cho’s parents live in a townhouse development in Centreville, a suburb of Washington. They own a dry-cleaning shop nearby.

His older sister, Sun-Kyung, graduated from Princeton University in 2004. A source, who asked to be identified as a senior Administration official, said she works for McNeil Technologies, a firm contracted by the State Department to manage reconstruction efforts in Iraq.

Woh. Ok. Stop right there.

What does McNeil Technologies do?
www.mcneilsecurity.com

Oh, the usual black bag intelligence agency cut out kind of stuff… Actually, there’s more here than you can shake a stick at.

The McNeil Technologies Services page lists the following categories: Language Services, Information Management Services, Program Support Services, Security Services, Intelligence Services.

I clicked on Intelligence Services first.

Intelligence Services -> Overview

McNeil’’s Intelligence and Language Center (ILC) provides unmatched expertise in the areas of Intelligence and Language Services. The combination of Intelligence and Language guarantees our clients mission success.

Our services and capabilities include:

* Intelligence Architecture Operations in support of the US Army Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC).
* Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) which supports the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and other government agencies, and
* HUMINT (Human Intel) operations in support of DIA, or with federal counter Intel outsourcing effort. Our
* Linguist operations, with linguists deployed in various theaters of operations,
* Translation operations which include document and website translation,
* Testing, Training and Research of language and cultural awareness.

Under Intelligence Services -> Key Solutions, we see:

HUMINT Operations:
Classified CONUS and OCONUS support by seasoned Intel professionals.

That means support for intelligence operations inside and outside of the continental United States.

Then we have:

Security Services -> Overview

The Security Center at McNeil Technologies is a dynamic and growing Center providing full spectrum security services.

* It is one of only three competitively-selected providers, and the only Washington-based provider of airport passenger/baggage screening services under Transportation Security Administration’s Screener Partnership Program. McNeil provides service at Greater Rochester International Airport.
* Physical Security which includes Access control, escorts, and Guard services, Electronic systems monitoring, as well as classified mailroom and package inspection.
* Personnel and Logistics Support is provided by MILPO operations
* Program Security consists of arms control and nonproliferation support, treaty vulnerability assessments, and support of Balanced Survivability Assessments
* McNeil Security Inc. – For more information about the McNeil Security subsidiary go to the website at www.mcneilsecurity.com.

Cui bono? Who benefits? At some point in the future, would a company that provides physical security for large organizations benefit from what just happened at Virginia Tech? It’s obviously just a coincidence that the sister of the shooter works for a large provider of these services. Right? A company with more publicly stated connections to U.S. Intelligence than you can shake a stick at… A company that is providing ongoing support to current U.S. Intelligence operations…

Feel free to keep clicking around on that site, if you dare. Intelligence operations. Physical security operations at airports and top secret government facilities. Government document declassification. Handling of information related to weapons of mass destruction… It goes on and on.

I’m not trying to sell you a set of steak knives: But wait, there’s more.

Who/what owns McNeil Technologies?

According to the McNeil Technologies About page:

In July 2004 Veritas Capital acquired McNeil Technologies and its subsidiaries.

Veritas Capital is a private equity investment firm headquartered in New York. Founded in 1992, Veritas’ primary objective is to partner with experienced and entrepreneurial management teams to develop leading companies in their respective markets. As a long-term investor in the defense, aerospace, and government services sectors, Veritas has established a Defense & Aerospace Advisory Council consisting primarily of former high-ranking government and military officials. The Council provides Veritas with insight into industry trends from both a business and policy perspective. Veritas’ principals bring over six decades of collective investing experience through a variety of economic conditions.

With over a $ 1 billion in investments, Veritas is able to offer unprecedented resources to its portfolio companies to help them satisfy their clients’ requirements.

Moving on to Veritas Capital, again, take your pick of what to look at there, but with two board members being associated with the Council on Foreign Relations…

Like I said, I’ve already seen enough.

Is the South Korean Film Oldboy Somehow Related?

I know I said that I’ve already seen enough, but it’s actually difficult to keep up with the rest of the news without bumping into this story.

The New York Times posted a brief story about how Cho appears to be imitating a scene from Oldboy, a 2003 South Korean film. I gathered the appropriate images from Cho’s “multi media manifesto” and Oldboy.

Cho and Oldboy?
If you don’t know what Oldboy is about, you might think pfft!, so what, two Korean dudes with hammers, God damned conspiracy theorists… I’ve never heard of the film before today. What’s it about? See for yourself. The parts about forced drugging, psychological torture and split personalities caught my attention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldboy



So the VA Tech shooter confessed that he based his crime spree on a Korean movie about an innocent man kidnapped by unknown people, tortured by drugged mind control in a "private" dungeon, without charges, without trial, without explanation, for 15 years...

He also loved the Collective soul song SHINE, about Lucifer's light, "Give me a sign, Show me where to go", which was also recorded by Satanist Dolly Parton, who's part of the Nashville country music mafia sex-slave drug gang for the CIA, as accused by Cathy O'Brien (River Tam).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cho_Seung-hui
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shine_%28Collective_Soul_song%29
www.lyricsfreak.com/c/collective+soul/shine_20032721.html

Quote:


"Mr. Chairman: In my letter to you of July 15, 1977, I reported our recent discovery of seven boxes of documents related to Project MKULTRA, a closely held CIA project conducted from 1953-1964. As you may recall, MKULTRA was an "umbrella project" under which certain sensitive subprojects were funded, involving among other things research on drugs and behavioral modification. During the Rockefeller Commission and Church Committee investigations in 1975, the cryptonym became publicly known when details of the drug-related death of Dr. Frank Olsen were publicized. In 1953 Dr. Olsen, a civilian employee of the Army at Fort Detrick, leaped to his death from a hotel room window in New York City about a week after having unwittingly consumed LSD administered to him as an experiment at a meeting of LSD researchers called by CIA. Most of what was known about the Agency's involvement with behavioral drugs during the investigations in 1975 was contained in a report on Project MKULTRA prepared by the Inspector General's office in 1963. As a result of that report's recommendations, unwitting testing of drugs on U.S. citizens was subsequently discontinued. The MKULTRA-related report was made available to the Church Committee investigators and to the staff of Senator Kennedy's Subcommittee on Health. Until the recent discovery, it was believed that all of the MKULTRA files dealing with behavioral modification had been destroyed in 1973 on the orders of the then retiring Chief of the Office of Technical Service, with the authorization of the DCI, as has been previously reported. Almost all of the people who had had any connection with the aspects of the project which interested Senate investigators in 1975 were no longer with the Agency at that time. Thus, there was little detailed knowledge of the MKULTRA subprojects available to CIA during the Church Committee investigations. The 1963 Inspector General report on MKULTRA made available to both the Church Committee and Senator Kennedy's Subcommittee mentions electro-shock and harassment substances (pp. 4, 16); covert testing on unwitting U.S. citizens (pp. 7, 10-12); the search for new materials through arrangements with specialists in universities, pharmaceutical houses, hospitals, state and federal institutions, and private research organizations (pp. 7, 9); and the fact that the Technical Service Division of CIA had initiated 144 subprojects related to the control of human behavior between 1953-1963 (p. 21)."
-Prepared Statement of Admiral Stansfield Turner, Director of Central Intelligence, U.S. Senate Hearing on MKULTRA, 1973
www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/e1950/mkultra/index.htm

"QKHILLTOP was a cryptonym assigned in 1954 to a project to study Chinese Communist brainwashing techniques and to develop interrogation techniques. Most of the early studies are believed to have been conducted by the Cornell University Medical School Human Ecology Study Programs. The effort was absorbed into the MKULTRA program and the QKHILLTOP cryptonym became obsolete."
-U.S. Senate Hearing on MKULTRA, Appendix C, QKHILLTOP DEFINITION, 1973
www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/e1950/mkultra/AppendixC.htm

"The concepts involved in manipulating behavior are found by many people both within and outside the Agency [CIA] to be distasteful and unethical. Nevertheless, there have been major accomplishments both in research and operational employment. Over the ten-year life of the program many additional avenues to the control of human behavior have been designated under the MKULTRA charter, including radiation, electro-shock, and harassment substances. Some activities raise questions of legality implicit in the original charter. A final phase of the testing places the rights and interests of US citizens in jeopardy. Technical Services Division initiated a program for covert testing of materials on unwitting US citizens in 1955. TSD has pursued a philosophy of minimum documentation in keeping with the high sensitivity of the projects. Some files contained little or no data at all. There are just two individuals in TSD who have full knowledge of the MKULTRA program, and most of that knowledge is unrecorded."
-MEMORANDUM FOR: Director of Central Intelligence
FROM: CIA Inspector General, NB 108-113, 26 July 1963
www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol#_ednref13

"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated. The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective. Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electrical stimulation of the brain."
-Dr. Jose Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry, Yale University Medical School prof and CIA mind control scientist, Congressional Record, No 26, vol 118 February 24th, 1974


Now we know why Firefly and River Tam had to die, and why Georges Bush and the Queen of England bought Serenity via Carlyle Group (aka Blue Sun).





"'They're hurting us. Get me out!' The Government was playing with her brain. They opened up her skull and cut into her brain. The only reason you do that is to lobotomize somebody. They did it over, and over..."
-Dr Simon Tam, Firefly

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556

www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

DRIVE: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
www.myspace.com/driveonfox


Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 4:12 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

But one thing I really need to point out to you is one damn simple fact you're not taking into account.

YOU. DO. NOT. LIVE. HERE.




Well, here's the rub, I have lived there. I may no longer live there, but I have lived in the US. You'd know this if you read my above posts. So, much for that "fact".

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=28209#481553


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Would you reccommend disarmament to someone in Rwanda, because you think they are safe from the nice long distance you are viewing it from ?




Dude, are you seriously comparing the situation in the US with Rwanda?!?! If only this, it tells everyone here that you are not capable of civil discourse, at least not on this topic, not with someone that has the opposite position of you.

It's either that, or your skin is so very thin, you can't handle even one of your ideas being called crap.


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

You've stated your position, fine, I don't agree with you, you don't have to agree with me, and I left it at that, but you still feel some all fired need to press an attack - why ?




Perhaps, just perhaps, if you looked at your own behaviour, you'd find the answer to your question. I'll also point out that YOU wanted this issue to drop, YOU would stop posting. You see, this is just another aspect of your hypocrisy. YOU are giving me things to reply to and then complaining that I'm replying to them.

Did you honestly think that I/we wouldn't see this?


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

You might call upon some of the other posters who did discuss the matter reasonably with me instead of making jackass assumptions and see if they agree with your idiotic perception that I am some kind of wacko nut job.

But no, you wanna sling insults cause I won't play your game and listen to you insult me while ignoring most if not all of what I say, well that's too bad, I don't play that game with others around here, and I sure as hell won't play it with you.

I got my position, you got yours, have the damn decency to agree to disagree, and until you live and work in the same places I do, don't be applying your standards to me.




Pot kettle black.

Basically, you can't complain when people are aggressive toward you, when they are only reacting to YOUR aggressiveness towards them.

I mean seriously. Sure, I called "Unarmed Victims Here!" "utter crap". Which IMO it is. But, you had a choice to make with regards to your response. You could either argue your case, or be rude. YOU chose the latter. YOU chose to take it as a personal insult instead of a comment on a comment you made.

To be explicit, I called /a comment/ that you made crap, but you insulted /me/ after that. You put words in /my/ mouth that were actually offensive and then ran with them as if I said them. Which btw you are /continuing to do/.

There is a world of difference there and I don't think that you understand that.

As for ignoring most of what you said... please. How then, did I comment on most (if not all) of what you said if I was ignoring "most if not all" of what you said.

Though I must say though that YOU are completely guilty of this. I made *lots* of points that you /never/ commented on. God forbid if you would actually acknowledge that though, eh? God forbid if you would take some responsibility for YOUR actions.

There is a nice quote that I've heard quite a lot over the past couple years:

"I cannot control what you do. But, I can control what I do."

If you want this to end here, then let it end here. If you want to continue with actual discussion, then continue. But, don't keep saying that you don't want to discuss and then keep posting.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 4:40 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Wasn't Rwanda mostly disarmed of firearms, so the killers used machetes to "disarm" the "unarmed" sheeple (Christians), by hacking their arms off?

After hunting, military prep school and USAF, I was sick of weapons. But after 9/11, perped by our own Gangsta Govt, I went shopping for as much firepower as I could afford. Suitable for killing heavily armed people. Though as VA Tech and Mafia hitmen prove, even a 22 can do the job at close range.

Funny how Bush picked NYC and DC for his 9/11 Massacres, where the sheeple are already disarmed... Funny how he used martial law to disarm the high-and-dry rich folks in New Orleans, where rotting corpses still fill 100,000 homes, and 75,000 black slaves still live in a concentration camp next door to Union Carbide's toxic waste factory.




"An armed society is a polite society."
—Robert A. Heinlein

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556

www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

DRIVE: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
www.myspace.com/driveonfox


Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:33 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Sigmanuki:
I was wondering when you'd show up and call me a terrorist. Funny how people like you just ridicule instead of actually addressing the reality of the situation that I bring up.



Get your head out of your righteous ass sigma. I'm a pacifist by nature, I'm against the war, my hatered for Demoncrats is rivaled only by my hatered for Repuglicans, I don't go around calling people terrorists (please show me one single example other than this), and Bush is an asshat. I've said all of these things countless times in here. What the hell are you talking about?

Quote:

Tell me, how exactly is pulling a gun on someone who is already at the ready going to "save the day"? i.e. reality isn't a John Wayne movie.


As I've also said before I don't own a gun even. I've never fired one. I feel safe because we live in a country that respects its citizens right to bear arms. If they made them illegal for all citizens, I would already own one now. As I've said before, I'm a pacifist by nature. I don't trust our government, and that's the main reason why I feel it's important to own guns. I'm more afraid of our government than I am any terrorist or sick freak who shoots up a school.

Quote:

And btw, if you read my above posts, you'd know that if I had my say, classes would have been canceled for at least that day i.e. the second shooting wouldn't have happened as the campus would have been evacuated.


I agree that it should have been evacuated while dipshit was out mailing his manifesto to CBS or wherever it went. And I'm sure that would have been at least as successful as the evacuations during Katrina.

Quote:

Here's another question for the US'ers here, what does how this situation played out say about the mentality of your society in general. I mean seriously, a shooting occurred and it was perceived so lightly that the day went on as normal when the perp wasn't found?!?!?


You want the truth? Actually, since I know nobody who died or any of their family members I really don't care about this incident at all. My first thought was "Oh great. More fodder for the anti-gun, anti-tobacco, anti-alcahol fascists". If I didn't live in America, I would hear about a lot more incidents like this because they're happening all over the world every day. Somebody is probably getting shot or stabbed or blown up while I write this. I don't care about these people. If somebody is coming after me or mine, however, I will do whatever is in my power to protect them. And if that meant firing a weapon that was deemed illegal by an ever increasingly fascist government, I will face that music after I've made sure that the people I care about are safe.



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

But, don't keep saying that you don't want to discuss and then keep posting.

Then don't go digging in some other thread to take a comment out of context and use it here as a personal slam.

No, I *don't* wanna discuss it with you, you're coming across in a fashion that strikes me as completely irrational and deliberately, maliciously insulting from the get go, so I suspect your motives.

I have made my position abundantly clear and reasonable in a different thread (the one relating to sheep, if you care), and I plan to leave it at that, yet you felt the need to take a shot at me long after the fact, and again when I suggested we agree to disagree on this one.

I am not Cit, and will not be baited into a thread-destroying tit-for-tat game here, you wanna continue to slam and insult, fine, be my guest, but you'll be talking to yourself, cause I got nothin left to say to you, period.

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