REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Despite what doom/gloomers say, economy roars on Part II

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, September 13, 2007 12:30
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Friday, September 7, 2007 11:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


This is a continuation from the other thread www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=20330 which was waaaay too long to load.

Dollar hits 15-year low after sharp drop in payrolls
www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUSN0634655920070907

{b]Gold over $700
http://today.reuters.com/investing/FinanceCommoditiesGroup.aspx?mkt=ME
TAL#2


Wall Street tumbles 2 pct after jobs data
www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN2030800420070907

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, September 7, 2007 12:01 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So, you're saying that all that good looking economic data was just a bubble. Then you've come to agree with me.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, September 7, 2007 12:26 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
So, you're saying that all that good looking economic data was just a bubble. Then you've come to agree with me.


Right, and hell must have just froze.

This thread is another attempt to lay all things bad at the feet of the present administration. Bubbles happen because of people, not governments. Governments ultimately cannot prevent bubbles or the resulting fall out, only people. So according to Greenspan, people are people, not much can be done about that (unless social engineering is your thing, hey wait a tick...).

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Friday, September 7, 2007 12:40 PM

MALBADINLATIN


Bubble my ass, more like a fart at best. Bubbles in the past happened after really great prosperity for all classes, The Dot Com boom, The roaring 20's, etc...This time it's like let's go work at Wal Mart or Subway Oh wait we can't afford to dabble in the stock market....and whats that? the stock market is down? who cares.

It seems to me that when the economy is good the adminstration claims credit, if it's bad....well you get my point. If politicians had the power to make the economy good, it would never be bad.

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Friday, September 7, 2007 12:40 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


But you do mean that all that good looking economic data was just a bubble. Now, run along and explain that to Rap. And don't forget to mention to him that government policy has nothing to do with how the economy is doing, so that he doesn't keep trying to give Bush credit for the bubble.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, September 7, 2007 12:43 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
But you do mean that all that good looking economic data was just a bubble. Now, run along and explain that to Rap. And don't forget to mention to him that government policy has nothing to do with how the economy is doing, so that he doesn't keep trying to give Bush credit for the bubble.


And if Auraptor jumped off a bridge...

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Friday, September 7, 2007 1:02 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


... you'd follow, I'm sure.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, September 7, 2007 2:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes, of course this is a bubble.Let me quote myself (from the oterh thread)
Quote:

Having lived through several housing bubbles, stock bubbles etc. I knew that like all good bubbles, this too would come to a sudden and painful end. And not only would housing prices fall they would take out a whole list of other sectors domino-style. If you were to be able to ask my colleagues at work, you'd know that I've been joking for about a year to get ready to invest in bank stocks because they were going to drop. Nobody is talking "recession" much less "panic", but the depth of behind-the-scenes worry is indicated by the fact that Bush AND Bernanke look to step in big-time.
But bubbles aren't caused by "human nature". That's the stupidest thing I ever heard, especially coming from a so-called economist. (But then I've always wondered about Greenspan. *rolls eyes*) Bubbles are caused by easy credit for speculative purposes.

---------------------------------
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Friday, September 7, 2007 3:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


News flash to SignyM - The original post was OVER 1 year old. We're talking 16 months before your sad addition to the thread. Go back almost a year and a half, and see what the Democrats were trying to sell about the economy. How many quarters of positive growth going on at the time ? How many STILL and counting ?

Yeah, the economy goes through cycles. Always has, always will. But that you had to wait almost 1 1/2 yrs before tacking on any BAD news only speaks poorly of the Democrats who took control of Congress last November, and nothing more.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, September 7, 2007 3:38 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"News flash to SignyM - The original post was OVER 1 year old." News flash to Rap - It doesn't matter when that one thread was STARTED. Because you've been repeatedly posting how GREAT the economy is ever since in many threads - most recently /in the last three months/ check that - one month ago.

Select to view spoiler:


Bush ... while cutting taxes, increasing revenue to the Treasury with 4 1/2 years of steady, economic growth.

So, do you still think so ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, September 7, 2007 3:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

News flash to SignyM - The original post was OVER 1 year old. We're talking 16 months before your sad addition to the thread. Go back almost a year and a half, and see what the Democrats were trying to sell about the economy.
I dunno, what were the Democrats trying to sell about the economy? I don't remember them saying anything particularly relevant so fill me in.
Quote:

How many quarters of positive growth going on at the time ? How many STILL and counting?
Right here:
www.edwardjones.com/cgi/getData.cgi?file=/pdf/eu_v14_n4.pdf
Quote:

Yeah, the economy goes through cycles. Always has, always will. But that you had to wait almost 1 1/2 yrs before tacking on any BAD news only speaks poorly of the Democrats who took control of Congress last November, and nothing more.
Gee, I predicted the economy would tank. HOW DID I DO THAT? Well, I looked at the ridiculous rise in housing prices, the kind of mortgages that were being offered, the loss of household income...

So Auraptor, how COULD I have know this was going to happen??? Well, all I can say is- It's a good thing Rue and I bought gold and foreign currency! BTW- Look into buying bank stocks in the near future. When it looks like the dollar is going to get back on a solid footing, I'll be sure to let you know.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, September 7, 2007 4:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So, Rap - are you going to run away from the thread only to post the same old elsewhere, as per usual ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, September 7, 2007 5:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Because you've been repeatedly posting how GREAT the economy is ever since in many threads - most recently /in the last three months/ check that - one month ago.
"But one month was so.... long ago!" Here we have in a nutshell why Auraptor never learns: HE NEVER REMEMBERS. The reason for invading Iraq? It just shifts to whatever the rightwing says at the moment. The state of the economy? It's whatever happens to be looking good at the moment. Poor fellow.

You know what they say about people forgetting history? That's him.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, September 7, 2007 5:57 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Good call Signy and Rue, if only the rest of us posessed a fraction of your omniscience.
Thought I'd help out, your hands must be sore from all of the pats on your back.

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Friday, September 7, 2007 6:54 PM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Good call Signy and Rue, if only the rest of us posessed a fraction of your omniscience.
Thought I'd help out, your hands must be sore from all of the pats on your back.

Forgive my change of subject but I'll get back to a relevant point at the end....

Nobody, the only time I ever hear from you is when I've already got Finn, Hero, and Rap chewing on my pants legs and growling. In this case all of you will have to settle for going yipe! because Rue and Signy are right, and Rap is being evasive and incoherant, leave them alone and go back to your neocon lair where I'm sure the gang is feeding on fresh meat, plotting the destruction of the Muslim world, and thumbing through anything financial hoping to find something by some republican think tank foundation to run back with. No offense I'm just in a grouchy mood.

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Friday, September 7, 2007 7:54 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Forgive my change of subject but I'll get back to a relevant point at the end....


Likewise, I'm sure.
Quote:

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Nobody, the only time I ever hear from you is when I've already got Finn, Hero, and Rap chewing on my pants legs and growling.


Which thread is it that you are reading now? Can't possibly be this one. Anyways, my post was more geared toward Signy and Rue.
Quote:

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
In this case all of you will have to settle for going yipe! because Rue and Signy are right, and Rap is being evasive and incoherant,


In Your Humble Opinion.
Quote:

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
leave them alone and go back to your neocon lair where I'm sure the gang is feeding on fresh meat, plotting the destruction of the Muslim world, and thumbing through anything financial hoping to find something by some republican think tank foundation to run back with.



Quote:

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
No offense I'm just in a grouchy mood.

Likewise, I'm sure.

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Friday, September 7, 2007 8:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"News flash to SignyM - The original post was OVER 1 year old." News flash to Rap - It doesn't matter when that one thread was STARTED. Because you've been repeatedly posting how GREAT the economy is ever since in many threads - most recently /in the last three months/ check that - one month ago.

Select to view spoiler:


Bush ... while cutting taxes, increasing revenue to the Treasury with 4 1/2 years of steady, economic growth.

So, do you still think so ?


You'd LIKE for it to not matter, but it absolutely does. By bringing up the original post 16 months after the fact, it's taking the subject line out of context. I was responding to the shrill cry of some Dems who were trying to talk down the economy when in fact it was doing quite well. Your 'spoiler' quote still holds true, as it was a commentary of what ACTUALLY HAS HAPPENED under the Bush administration.

Are you so pissed off at Bush that even the facts showing a positive economy still frustrate you ?

Sig, I've never shifted as to the reason why we invaded Iraq. Nice try
Also, the problems w/ the lending institutions are , much like the phony dot com bubble, coming home to roost. It's nothing that the Bush administration has done that has caused this situation, but a natural correction on a industry which was foolishly running itself at high risk. There's no need for the Gov't to bail anyone out. All some here on the board want to do is simply take a situation and blow it way out of proportion, all for pure political hit points.

Pretty lame, if ya ask me.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, September 7, 2007 8:45 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But bubbles aren't caused by "human nature". That's the stupidest thing I ever heard, especially coming from a so-called economist. (But then I've always wondered about Greenspan. *rolls eyes*) Bubbles are caused by easy credit for speculative purposes.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.



Bingo!

And speculation is dumb, greedy human nature. I remember seeing those late night infomercials about how you could make big money in real estate with no money down. There were actual books on how to take advantage of the housing market in Barnes and Noble! So some greedy idiot thought he could make a killing buying real estate he couldn't afford with money lent to him by another greedy a-hole who saw a better return on investment than the 3% he could make elsewhere. That's a bubble.

The problem is that you look at it and can't understand why people can't see it's a house of cards but then you're not a greedy asshole.

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Friday, September 7, 2007 10:41 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"who were trying to talk down the economy when in fact it was doing quite well" Well then, that's your first mistake. What people were posting was that the economy was being mismanaged and unsustainable IN THE LONG TERM. And in fact, while the economy hasn't actually grown (net) over Bush's terms, the full effect of reckless spending and borrowing has yet to be felt. This recent bursting housing bubble is a merely small appetizer of things to come.

But you responded by saying the economy was doing GREAT ! and ignoring the topic, which was the long-term outlook. So, let's take a look at YOUR goalposts, shall we ?

Housing - a burst bubble
Jobs - declines
Stocks - still in the hole
Consumer confidence - unconfident

Have I missed any ? What else did you mention ? Please add them on. B/c if you look at all these factors, you'll see that there have been no net gains over the years. So even by your measures and over your timeframe, the economy hasn't been doing well at all. (If you are having difficulty with facts, ask Fletch2 to assist you. As he is the local self-anointed economy expert, I'm sure he'd be delighted.)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, September 8, 2007 2:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


rue....how could there be a burst in the housing bubble if housing wasn't doing well ? After a period of expansion, there's a correction. It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

Jobs ? Look again, the jobless rates have been very low, under 5%. Ok, 4.6% unemployment to be more specific. That's damn near full employment.

Stocks ? Gained almost 7,000 and reached an all time high under Bush. Over the LONG TERM, that's pretty damn good.

http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/5y/_/_dji


Consumer confidence ? Unconfident...heh heh. No wonder,with all the left wing propaganda that the Liberal network news shows and news papers spew out every day.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, September 8, 2007 4:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

And speculation is dumb, greedy human nature
But Fletch2- All the speculative desire in the world goes nowhere unless money is chained to it. In fact, there can be a HUGE need for something but if the $$ isn't there it ain't gonna happen. And that's where economic policy and regulation comes in. After the stock market crash of 39 and the bank failures which resulted, regulations were put into place limiting the amount of credit you could use to buy stocks. And then there was the S&L crisis caused by a combination of Federal insurance and deregulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_Loan_crisis For an economist- particularly one who used to be involved in government policy- to throw up his hands and say "It's human nature" is a pretty good argument to eliminate that person from any list of "experts".

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, September 8, 2007 4:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Auraptor- You feel free to pick and choose indicators because you haven't a clue how an economy works. For every positive indicator that you find, I can find two negatives. But rather than just throwing indicators at each other, let's have a discussion about what they mean. How does that sound?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, September 8, 2007 5:17 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Auraptor- You feel free to pick and choose indicators because you haven't a clue how an economy works. For every positive indicator that you find, I can find two negatives. But rather than just throwing indicators at each other, let's have a discussion about what they mean. How does that sound?




Sounds great, but for what point? To show how the Bush administration has destroyed or grown the US economy ? Or simply to have a talk of economics for the pure fun of it? To be honest, I've heard from several unbiased sources that it's been a mixed bag ( shocker ) but that Bush had been given more blame than his fair share of credit. But what's the old saying about finding 2 economist who agree on everything ? Well, I'm not an economist, and didn't make it much past supply/demand in Econ 101, but then I'm told that's all ya really need to know. Still, I do have a 'clue' of how the economy works. And I know that even in a depression, someone is making money. There's never been a time when all areas of the economy have been down. Not sure that can ever happen, short of a colossal war or natural catastrophy.

Of coruse, then there's the issue of at what point does the Fed Gov't have the obligation, or 'right' to step in and help a privately run industry ? That would take things in a whole new direction now, would it ?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, September 8, 2007 5:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

...But rather than just throwing indicators at each other, let's have a discussion about what they mean. How does that sound?-Signy

Sounds great, but for what point?- Auraptor

Because we might come to some common understanding. Or at the least we might actually learn something from each other.

There is a fundamental question: What is an economic structure FOR, and how do we judge it? Is it mean to create "the greatest good for the greatest number"? Is it meant to improve the species by whacking the unfit? Is it supposed to "advance technology"? In your opinion, what is the "purpose" of an economic structure, and how do we judge one structure against another?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, September 8, 2007 8:04 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

And speculation is dumb, greedy human nature
But Fletch2- All the speculative desire in the world goes nowhere unless money is chained to it. In fact, there can be a HUGE need for something but if the $$ isn't there it ain't gonna happen. And that's where economic policy and regulation comes in. After the stock market crash of 39 and the bank failures which resulted, regulations were put into place limiting the amount of credit you could use to buy stocks. And then there was the S&L crisis caused by a combination of Federal insurance and deregulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_Loan_crisis For an economist- particularly one who used to be involved in government policy- to throw up his hands and say "It's human nature" is a pretty good argument to eliminate that person from any list of "experts".

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.




Economics is people en mass doing stuff. If you shot every economist tomorrow people would still buy and sell, there would still be trade, folks would still hire other folks to do things for them. It's government's job to try to engineer an environment that encourages prosperity, but every tool they have is a crude tool. And interest rate hike needed to keep inflation under control for your average suburbanite might mean foreclosures in the farming belt.

Imagine that the government is like a guard at a building site. He's not actually constructing the building, he's just making sure that things are secure so that others can do the work. If things go well and construction goes on then he's just doing his job. If the place burns down that's a different matter.

Politicos taking credit for any economic benefit from the New Deal through to Reaganomics is politico's posturing. They can do things like increase the money supply or encourage investment through tax breaks but that only has an effect if people take it and run with it. If the economy was great and for some reason everyone stopped spending money it would crash real fast irrespective of what Greenspan says or doesnt say.

As for easy credit, that's the result of lower interest rates. Put simply if you have capital then you have to invest it or watch it erode away. If interest rates are low then you place the money in stocks, if stocks start to tank you look around for somewhere else to put your money.

What happened was that the tech crash (the first group of greedy aholes trying to make something from nothing) depressed stocks. Interest rates on bonds were still so so because interest rates in general were low. So all that capital looked around for ways to make a bigger return (greedy aholes #2.) People looked at the low interest rates, looked at the capital in their homes and determined that they would refinance and convert some of that value into liquid assets. So you had people with tanagable assets looking to borrow money on the basis of those assets. Compared to .com, where people were giving out money to internet pet grooming services this must have seemed like a good investment. After all it had a house to back it right?

It then became the perceived wisdom that the housing base was undervalued because, you know, folks need homes. So house prices went up as greedy aholes #3 tried to cash in on the deal. Then greedy aholes #4 looked at things and thought, "hey house prices are going up, if I borrow money and buy a house now and sell it later === Profit." They turn around and there are greedy aholes #2 still giving out money to anyone so long as the investment is backed by bricks and mortar.

Rince and repeat (I will ignore greedy aholes #5 the folks that packaged morgages and then sold them on to investors.)

A bubble happens when the paper value of an asset starts to greatly outstrip its intrinsic value. It's fueled by speculation, folks that intend to pump and dump that assets value in the hope of making a killing. You can actually do it with anything as long as you have the money to back it up. We've seen it done with currencies by private investors before now. That's just a bunch of greedy aholes making a buck. Governement could follow them around and backfill the holes afterwards but it's hard to see how you stop them. Anything that can be traded can be speculated, in fact the stock market exists almost entirely for speculative profit these days. As long as there are greedy aholes wanting more for their buck than base rate this will happen.

Economics is just folks, speculation is folks behaving badly.


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Saturday, September 8, 2007 6:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Fletch- I read your lots of words and all I get out of it is blather.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 12:04 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Fletch- I read your lots of words and all I get out of it is blather.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.



I'm sorry I'm not responsable for your limitations.

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 1:39 AM

LEADB


Actually, I found fletch's assessment of the housing bubble to be pretty reasonable. Add the 'sheeple' who see the money being made and come 'just a bit too late' to the party and, not understanding what is really happening, throw their money into the mix; these are the folks who typically get burned. This phenomenon is sometimes called 'the greatest fool.' I believe the folks who are usually driving these bubbles are usually out of them before they burst.

The only thing that surprised me on this course was the larger hedge funds getting burned. I would have expected them to know better. Here's hoping they don't get the bail out they don't deserve.

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 8:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


What I heard was: People will do what people will do despite government regulations and policies.

Now: IF government policy and regulation is so irrelevant, why worry about such policies as "capitalism" and "socialism"?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 9:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I don't know if the economic structure really needs a purpose, other than simply BEING a reflection of how folks interact with each other on a commercial level. You seem to think there needs to be some reason FOR the economic structure, while I think it simply is.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 9:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
What I heard was: People will do what people will do despite government regulations and policies.

Now: IF government policy and regulation is so irrelevant, why worry about such policies as "capitalism" and "socialism"?




Because capitalism is freedom, and socialism is control, for starters.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 11:48 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
What I heard was: People will do what people will do despite government regulations and policies.

Now: IF government policy and regulation is so irrelevant, why worry about such policies as "capitalism" and "socialism"?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.



I used to work with a Russian guy. Before he moved to the US and back in the old Soviet days he used to repair electronic goods for the Russian Mafia.

Yes that's right even back then under communism there was a mafia run black market in the Soviet Union that bought and sold stuff and provided services that the government did not. Even stupid things like fixing your TV set or radio if they broke down.

People do what people do. You can regulate to maybe may antisocial activities illegal but people will do it anyway. Even before Sarbanes-Oxley the kind of crap Ken Lay and his chums at Enron were pulling was illegal and it didn't stop them. Afterwards the government stepped in and backfilled, tried to make it harder for that kind of white collar crime (because it was a crime) to go undetected, but all that means is that the hucksters moved on to other things.


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Sunday, September 9, 2007 12:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So socialist policies get the same results as capitalist policies? Nah... don't think so.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 12:50 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
Yes that's right even back then under communism there was a mafia run black market in the Soviet Union that bought and sold stuff and provided services that the government did not. Even stupid things like fixing your TV set or radio if they broke down.



So even in socialist or communist countries, some form of capitalism will always exist to provide goods and services for the people willing and able to pay the asking price. And in places where capitalism is illegal, it makes sense that organized crime would step up and provide, just like they do with gambling or drugs in places those things are illegal.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 1:37 PM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
What I heard was: People will do what people will do despite government regulations and policies.

Now: IF government policy and regulation is so irrelevant, why worry about such policies as "capitalism" and "socialism"?

Ah, I see where you are coming from. To some extent, I agree with that. The trick is to try to bring some moderation to the 'random' factors with with regulatory control. Above someone references the soviet union. At some point where does regulation of 'free market' and 'capitalistic' society become socialism? Tough to say; bottom line, it is impossible to regulate all opportunities to do 'something dumb' (that makes money for someone) without going to a completely centralized economy. And I have no faith in a completely centralized economy because then the folks doing the 'dumb thing' is the senate and house, since they are clearly good at that. Any how SOx is driving a good portion of my work, and so far that work hasn't been parceled out to India, so I'm keeping busy. Sure hope SOx is keeping folks honest, cause it is coming with one hell of a big price tag.

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 8:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SOx? The only SOx I know of is "oxides of sulfur".

Anyway, I don't exactly have great faith in a centralized economy either. I just think it's a dodge to throw up your hands and say "People will be people" especially since we just had a savings and loan meltdown not more than 30 years ago for many of the same reasons. It's not as if the people at top are so disengaged that they haven't heard of reverse amortization or exploding loans and "no money down" and "no income verification". And if I could see where this all was heading why couldn't they? It could have easily been nipped by requiring a certain percent money down and income verification. (I can't believe I'm saying this... it's like an exact replay of the last housing bubble.)

So, why didn't they do anything?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, September 9, 2007 8:39 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
SOx? The only SOx I know of is "oxides of sulfur".





Sarbanes Oxley

Quote:



Anyway, I don't exactly have great faith in a centralized economy either. I just think it's a dodge to throw up your hands and say "People will be people" especially since we just had a savings and loan meltdown not more than 30 years ago for many of the same reasons. It's not as if the people at top are so disengaged that they haven't heard of reverse amortization or exploding loans and "no money down" and "no income verification". And if I could see where this all was heading why couldn't they? It could have easily been nipped by requiring a certain percent money down and income verification. (I can't believe I'm saying this... it's like an exact replay of the last housing bubble.)

So, why didn't they do anything?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.




For the same reason that they don't regulate credit card companies even though they operate the closest thing to legal theft you have ever seen. The government doesnt get involved with the way that people make money UNTIL it becomes a political problem.

That's why they end up backfilling. There is a crash, ordinary Joes lose money, the call goes out to DO something and then retroactively the government regulates. Once that happens people go elsewhere.

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Monday, September 10, 2007 2:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The government doesnt get involved with the way that people make money UNTIL it becomes a political problem.
Why doesn't the government regulate ahead of time? In fact, it seems to me that this government colludes with predatory practices. For example, Enron didn't occur until AFTER deregulation (pushed by Wendy Gramm (Phil Gramm's R wife). And under the latest bankruptcy law, unsecured loans (like credit card balances and outstanding medical bills) MUST be paid off under Chapter 13 (not Chapter 7) reducing the risk for those who practice predatory lending. (Need I add that corporations don't have such limitations??? OF course not, but this is yet one other example of how people haver fewer rights than businesses!)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 10, 2007 3:58 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Why doesn't the government regulate ahead of time?


Sure, why not let the government tell me when, where, and how to invest my money. But why stop there? Think about how much time and effort I can save if I let the government make all of my choices for me. After-all, they know what's best for the ignorant masses, right?

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Monday, September 10, 2007 4:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Sure, why not let the government tell me when, where, and how to invest my money.
Why not just let people rob each other at gunpoint? Because a person's (or a business') "freedom to" often interferes with another's "freedom from".

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 10, 2007 6:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So Fletch2, Geezer, or other wanna-be capitalists: do you have any inisght as to why this Administration would have stepped back previously in-place regulations which would have prevented the very problems that we're now seeing?


Is it possible they don't give a sh*t? Or worse- that they intended to profit from this sh*tstorm?

MEANWHILE
Nasdaq drops more than 1 percent
www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUSN2030800420070910
AND CONTINUING FROM LAST WEEK
Dollar touches 15-year lows on rate cut expectations
Gold at $710
http://today.reuters.com/investing/FinanceCommoditiesGroup.aspx?mkt=ME
TAL#2


www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUSN0634655920070910




---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 10, 2007 6:29 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Because they have to pretend to be conservative every once in a while.

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Monday, September 10, 2007 6:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BDN- Is it "conservative" to throw all your weight behind big business and crap on the little guy? Or is that just plain corruption?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 10, 2007 6:46 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Signy,
It is conservative to limit the powers of government in people's lives.

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Monday, September 10, 2007 6:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


But what if you limit people more than you limit business? Couple of examples, in greater detail:

Bankruptcy. If you are a business and you have unsecured loans, you may file for bankruptcy under Chapters 7 or 11. Under Chapter 7, all of your unsecured debts are wiped out. But if you are a person and you have unsecured debts (credit card, medical bills) you may NOT choose Chapter 7 if your income in geater than the median income. You MUST file under Ch 13 which will require you to pay off those "unsecured" loans.

Taxes: Damn, but I wish I was taxed like a business! I could deduct my mortgage, food, gas, car payments, insurance costs, utilities and virtually all of my expenses as "costs", and I'd only be taxed on my "profits" (And I can assure you there'd be damn little of that at the end of the year! )

Privacy: I can't snoop in my neighbor's house. I cna't snoop into a business (Some of those "hidden-camera" news reports on filthy restaurants were chared with violating a business' "right to privacy!") But businesses snoop into OUR affairs all of the time. They can not only search your office station and computer, they can also LEGALLY search your car (even off company property), your house, your records, and even require a drug test.

Theft: If I steal from you it may be a midemeanor or a felony, depending on how much money I stole and the specific limits of your sttate. But if you steal from a company that's an automatic felony no matter how little you steal. I'll give you a real-life example: There was a garment sweatshop in NY that illegally w/held wages from its workers for over three weeks. Now these people live paycheck to paycheck and it was a significant hardship for them- They were going hungry and having to borrow $$$ at usurious rates just to keep afloat. They complained to the State, which didn't respond in a timely way to their plight, so in turn THEY stole some of the clothing intending to sell it to make some $$. They were charged with felonies, the business was charged with a misdemeanor and fined well less than the amount of the w/held wages.


Shall I go on?

I mean to me THAT'S not conservative, that's just being a toady for the moneyed.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 10, 2007 7:37 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But what if you limit people more than you limit business? Couple of examples, in greater detail:

Bankruptcy. If you are a business and you have unsecured loans, you may file for bankruptcy under Chapters 7 or 11. Under Chapter 7, all of your unsecured debts are wiped out. But if you are a person and you have unsecured debts (credit card, medical bills) you may NOT choose Chapter 7 if your income in geater than the median income. You MUST file under Ch 13 which will require you to pay off those "unsecured" loans.


Chapter 7 for a corporation is liquidation. All assets are seized and sold off to satisfy debt. Bye-bye business. And remaining debts aren't 'discharged', per several sites, such as wiki.
"In a Chapter 7 case, a corporation or partnership does not receive a bankruptcy discharge. Only an individual can receive a Chapter 7 discharge (see 11 U.S.C. § 727(a)(1)). Once all assets of the corporate or partnership debtor have been fully administered, the case is closed. The debts of the corporation or partnership theoretically continue to exist until applicable statutory periods of limitations expire."

Individuals also have exemptions from seizure which do not apply to corporations.
http://www.moranlaw.net/exemptions.htm


Quote:

Taxes:


So you're willing to pay the X% more goods and services would cost if business was taxed on income rather than profit?

Quote:

But businesses snoop into OUR affairs all of the time. They can not only search your office station and computer, they can also LEGALLY search your car (even off company property), your house, your records, and even require a drug test.


Perhaps a little restatement here. Businesses can track the usage of THEIR equipment by their employees.

I'd be interested in cites for '...search your car, ... house, ... records.'

Quote:

I'll give you a real-life example: There was a garment sweatshop in NY that illegally w/held wages from its workers for over three weeks.

And while we're at it, a cite for this. I'd like to have all the facts, such as how much was stolen.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, September 10, 2007 7:50 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Because capitalism is freedom, and socialism is control, for starters.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Better get a colour TV, AU, all that black and white is affecting your perception!!!!!!

AU kills me Chrisisall

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Monday, September 10, 2007 8:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ah, Xposted w/ geezer.

Ok, here's some info:
www.rendlerlaw.com/corporate_bankruptcy.html
Quote:

Corporate Bankruptcy - California
Corporate Bankruptcy is the filing of Chapter 7 or Chapter 11 by corporations and partnerships . On the filing of a Chapter 7 petition, the court appoints a trustee. The trustee's primary duty is to sell the assets of the bankruptcy estate, and then make distributions to creditors. The trustee's commissions and other administrative expenses are paid first, followed by payment of priority debts (often taxes), and then to general unsecured creditors on a pro rata basis.

My point, which you failed to address, is that certain individuals are now PROHIBITED from filing under Chapter 7. There is no such prohibiiton in place for businesses.
Quote:

Perhaps a little restatement here. Businesses can track the usage of THEIR equipment by their employees. I'd be interested in cites for '...search your car, ... house, ... records.'
There was a Supreme Court case (back in the 70's I think) which decided that an aerospace firm had the right to search an employees car for drugs even though it was off company property. I'll have to find it again. There was a more recent ruling (in the 90's) that business had the right to tear apart your house if they suspected that you had stolen something from them. In that case, they can supply the "punishment" (ripping your walls out, breaking your doors and tearing things apart) before you're found "guilty". Again, I'll find the links. As far as companies being able to look through your records, there are all sorts of citations. I'm trying to get something done so I'll give you the links later. Feel free to google it up in the interim.
Quote:

So you're willing to pay the X% more goods and services would cost if business was taxed on income rather than profit?
Sure, because it'll mean that I pay less taxes!

AFA the illegally w/held wages: The specific incident was quoted from a television show which doesn't have its programs archived on the net. So in lieu of that specific incident I'll have to provide you with these:
Quote:

"Employers know that the workers can't complain, so they withhold wages, claiming manufacturers were slow to pay. It has become standard practice to withhold six weeks' pay or more." ... In the past five years only a handful of sweatshop owners has been prosecuted for failing to pay workers.

www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,989456-3,00.html
Eliot Spitzer's report (see Sweatshops)
www.oag.state.ny.us/annual_report00.pdf
(BTW the incident that I listed was before Eliot Spitzer)

BTW, I'd be happy to find the CA Supreme Court ruling that said that a divorced woman was liable to pay back the loan that her ex-husband had taken on on her house by forging her signature because it was more important that the business climate be maintained than individual justice done in this case.

Like I said, I'm busy, but I'll be happy to find all kinds of stuff later. You may be sorry that you got me revved up.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 10, 2007 8:53 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So Fletch2, Geezer, or other wanna-be capitalists: do you have any inisght as to why this Administration would have stepped back previously in-place regulations which would have prevented the very problems that we're now seeing?



I think it's idiotlogical (that's like idealogical but there is an idiot involved.)

As I see it there are two prevailing ideas as to what a government should and shouldn't do. There is the "all it can" approach which I think you favour and there is the "little as possible" approach which several others favour.

The problem with laws, regulations and statutes is that they are by their nature crude instruments. You can put them in place with the best of intensions to stop the bad guys from picking on the little guy. However such regulations will make it harder for legitimate businesses to operate and will have unforeseen results that might hit the little guy.

People that believe in regulation will point at the fact that they have back filled the way that preditor X fleeced victim Y and be happy, even though X has moved on to other unregulated ways of stealing Y's money and you just made it harder for business Z to sell to Y. People that don't believe in regulation will want to revoke the regs to make it easier for Z to sell to Y even though it opens another door for X. Each sees themselves as acting in the best interest of Y.

So for example, you create the FDA to stamp out snake oil salemen. The snake oil guys move on by calling their concotions dietary supplements so they are no longer regulated. However the existance of the FDA does make testing take longer and be more expensive for legitimate medicine which may add a few years to the introduction of a life giving drug someone needs NOW.

In this case you have to conclude that the regulation is nescessary, people's health is too important to let huckster's play with, but if you are dying of desease X and the cure is there but years from being available that's a problem.

On your second question, Congress is bought and paid for to the point where some lobbies write their own legislation.

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