REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iraq, deep in your bones

POSTED BY: HKCAVALIER
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 09:04
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Monday, September 17, 2007 8:20 AM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by leadb:
I do not believe Sarg's statement comes anywhere near it would take to classify someone as being on the side of the terrorists. Sorry to say; but the gov. sometimes needs reigning in.


Its more then a mere statement. Its a desire of some folks, liberals mostly, to see the US withdraw from Iraq. They want to see the political failure of the President, they want to see the repudiation of his foriegn policy. They want to see a rollback of the anti-terror policies. There goals are the same as that of the terrorists and while terrorists shoot at our soldiers with bullets the liberals use words. Their goal is the same, they stand together, not because of their common cause, the defeat of the United States and its President.

I don't put them on the side of the terrorists, they put themselves there with their words, deeds, and goals.

The government always needs some reigning in. But you don't see a boxer taking the time to consider the alternatives to fighting his opponant in the middle of the fight. The time for alternatives is before or after the war is over. The only alternatives in the middle of the fight are win or lose, kill or be killed, and spam or chipped beef (MREs).

H

Yes and no. Unless the next President does something radically opposed to what Bush has started, we could be 'in a state of war' for the next 30 to 40 years, the war on terror. That's a bit long between 'sanity checks.'

Actually, I don't think the terrorists particularly want to see the 'anti-terrorists' policies of the administration rolled back; the current environment is providing more grist for the mill than an effective anti-terrorist policy. I do not believe that in all cases this administration has pursued the most effective strategies.

However, I see you were aiming at a much bigger picture than Sarg's 'immediate' statement, and better understand your point.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 8:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Its more then a mere statement. Its a desire of some folks, liberals mostly, to see the US withdraw from Iraq. They want to see the political failure of the President, they want to see the repudiation of his foreign policy.
And so...? HERO, you have an equation in your head:

The President, his policies and success = America, The Constitution.

That equation only exists in your head. The President and his foreign policy and political success is NOT America or the Constitution. And in some ways Bush seems antithetical to what this country is supposed to stand for.
Quote:


They want to see a rollback of the anti-terror policies.

No. Nobody here is "for terror". The Iraq war is at best a distraction from the REAL war on terror, and I happen to think that we can fight terrorists w/o resorting to un-Constitutional means.
Quote:

There (sic) goals are the same as that of the terrorists and while terrorists shoot at our soldiers with bullets the liberals use words. Their goal is the same, they stand together, not because of their common cause, the defeat of the United States and its President.
Are you saying that I want to see a jihad take over America? Turn America (or the world) into an Islamist theocracy? Whoa there, little feller!
Quote:

The government always needs some reigning in. But you don't see a boxer taking the time to consider the alternatives to fighting his opponant in the middle of the fight.
Of course you do! It's called "strategic thinking". People who don't engage in strategic thinking often wind up punch-drunk losers.
Quote:

If this be treason, then lets make the most of it.
Okey dokey. Care for that last smoke?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 8:58 AM

LEADB


Of course... if we start shooting each other, all the real terrorist have to do is lean back and chuckle.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 9:44 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The President, his policies and success = America, The Constitution.

That equation only exists in your head. The President and his foreign policy and political success is NOT America or the Constitution.


Yes it is. Here's a contemporary example. President Clinton had bombing campaigns against Serbia and Iraq. He even deployed troops to Serbia.

I hate Clinton. Thought he was a crook and a sex offender.

I opposed the limited bombing of Iraq and everything about the Serbian mission. Yet once the bombs started falling I demanded success and victory. As it turns out my assessment of Serbia was wrong, I admitted it and gave the President credit for it when it was over. My assessment of Iraq was correct and I gave the President hell for his faiure...when it was over.

We should piss, moan, fight, elbow, tussle, and spit right up until the decision is made and then we need to present a united front. Afterwards we can blame, game, politic, spin, second guess, backseat drive, Monday morning quartback as much as we want.
Quote:


Are you saying that I want to see a jihad take over America? Turn America (or the world) into an Islamist theocracy?


Thats silly. Just because you and the terrorists are on the same bus does not mean your going to the same place. You would be satisfied with enough defeat to remove the President and his party from power. They want more defeat to remove the United States from power (and our heads from our necks). Your both invested in American defeat. Its just the degree you and your terrorist buddies disagree on. In that respect you are not unlike Russia or the former French President, but the distiction there is that foriegn political interests should be distinguishable from domestic partisanship.

I note for the record that during the fifty-year Cold War the two parties were united in opposition to the spread of international communism despite the domestic political differences. These days liberals are united with international terrorism against the current administration. Such a union is fleeting and leaves us much weaker in our ability to continue to confront the Jihadists should the Democrats somehow manage to make it into office.

H

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Monday, September 17, 2007 9:49 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
There goals are the same as that of the terrorists and while terrorists shoot at our soldiers with bullets the liberals use words. Their goal is the same, they stand together, not because of their common cause, the defeat of the United States and its President.

I don't put them on the side of the terrorists, they put themselves there with their words, deeds, and goals.



Actually, the president has done more to further the goals of the terrorists than the 'liburls' ever could. (btw, Bush and his neo-cons are far too liberal for me, so your standard demagoguery kind of falls apart here). He's provided OBL with tailor-made fodder every time Al-qeuda's cause begins to wane. He's validated the terrorists' every screeching claim about US imperialism. And he's hell bent on pissing off every potential ally we might have had. He's done more for the cause of the terrorists than Osama himself.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, September 17, 2007 10:50 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


Hero that's such pathetic rhetoric.


The reasons behind what liberals want are different than the reasons behind why Jihadists say what they say.

Frankly, I think the fanatics are tickled pink that we're in Iraq. It may burn them with a certain indignation and fury, but they get to kill americans. They get to recruit like crazy. they get an unstable region in which they can garner more power, and have.

Your disingenuine attempt at labeling us as defacto enemies of the state is just as unreasonable as me telling you that you are a fascist loving, goose stepping, Nazi enabler.

Hell, you're supporting the grandson of a Nazi sympathiser who was actually connected to a considered coup on our elected government.

And here's Bush sounding like Hitler...

"Our first priority must always be the security of our nation... We will win this war; we'll protect our homeland"

- George Bush, 1/29/2002

"An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child of this great nation. We must take steps to insure our domestic security and protect our homeland. "

- Adolph Hitler, 1922

I might stretch, if I were being a total asshole, that they want the same things, and thus must you.

I mean, seriously, how far of a cry is it to suggest that there's been a melding of corporations and government in this country, particularly under Bush's watch? Can you say, Fascist?
.........................

To suggest that liberals want us to lose a war is stupid, and doesn't represent anything the vast majority of us is thinking. YOu can argue that the actions we want our government to take would cause us to lose the war. YOu could argue that we have given up on the possibility of there being such a thing as winning this war. But saying that we are hoping to fail, is pure slander.


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Monday, September 17, 2007 11:47 AM

LEADB


<<< Piles up sandbags, waits for the shooting to stop.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 12:06 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
But saying that we are hoping to fail, is pure slander.


Awww, Hero don't mean nuthin' by it. He just comes here to sharpen his skills for the courtroom- to see how far he can push before we call 'im on it. It's all theatrics for him. Winning is the point, not *laughs* Truth *snickers* or Justice ROTF!!!! It's all a game to him...y'know, as long as he doesn't have to actually physically fight anyone....

Snarky's Machineisall



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Monday, September 17, 2007 3:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I thought 'our duly installed stoolies' were actually democratically elected by a majority of the Iraqi voters in their last election."

Wow. I can see where YOU get your news from.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, September 17, 2007 4:25 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"I thought 'our duly installed stoolies' were actually democratically elected by a majority of the Iraqi voters in their last election."

Wow. I can see where YOU get your news from.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ministers_of_Iraq

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Monday, September 17, 2007 7:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Leadb don't worry none. I called Hero a traitor because he throws that word around so easily, I just wanted him to see how it felt coming in his direction.
--------------------

Quote:

Yes it is. Here's a contemporary example. President Clinton had bombing campaigns against Serbia and Iraq. He even deployed troops to Serbia. I hate Clinton. Thought he was a crook and a sex offender. I opposed the limited bombing of Iraq and everything about the Serbian mission. Yet once the bombs started falling I demanded success and victory. As it turns out my assessment of Serbia was wrong, I admitted it and gave the President credit for it when it was over. My assessment of Iraq was correct and I gave the President hell for his faiure...when it was over. We should piss, moan, fight, elbow, tussle, and spit right up until the decision is made and then we need to present a united front. Afterwards we can blame, game, politic, spin, second guess, backseat drive, Monday morning quartback as much as we want.
I think the problem is that we DIDN'T piss. moan, and tussle b4 the war started. Most of us were stampeded into thinking that Saddam had WMD, and about 30% of folks STILL think he was behind 9-11!

Hero, are you old enough to remember the Vietnam war? Now THERE was a tragic mistake. We should never have gotten involved in the first place, never set up several miserably corrupt, evil puppet governments... If people had engaged in strategic thinking at ANY point earlier we would have left having done far less damage to ourselves and to them- than we eventually did.
Quote:

Thats silly. Just because you and the terrorists are on the same bus does not mean your going to the same place. You would be satisfied with enough defeat to remove the President and his party from power. They want more defeat to remove the United States from power (and our heads from our necks). Your both invested in American defeat.
Hero, I COULD be calling you a traitor in every post because to my way of thinking you're out to destroy the Constitution. But I give you the benefit of wanting what's best for America, even if its in a misguided way. Why can't you acknowledge that liberals ALSO want what's best for America? Changing an initially bad decision is not a defeat, it's learning from mistakes. If I saw a kid hammering his thumb, I'd want to take the hammer out of his hand. Why do you think that persisting in an unsuccessful strategy/ behavior is a positive attribute?


------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, September 18, 2007 7:05 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


There are a lot of things the Wiki entry and links left out.

Most of the votes were for a party, not a person. With the exception of a handful of people, there were no candidates per se on the ballot. Most people had no idea what the party they were voting for stood for. Because of the lack of electricity, and more important - security, no party wrote up position statements, and the little information there was, was virtually undistributed. Nearly all ballots were distributed at the last minute, creating voter confusion - with long lists of unrecognized and cryptic party names. Since the party names were unrecognized, the positions unstated, and the actual candidates not identified, the voting itself was fairly random, often based on whether the person handing out the ballots was known to the voter and what they recommended, or, more commonly, by any religious identification gleaned from rumor. Turnout was low, and the vote was boycotted by Sunnis b/c of a fatwah that was issued. And like the old computer acronym - GIGO. Iraq now has a broken government apparently answerable to and representative of no one, with Sunni's out of the process completely.

Yup, that worked out well.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:04 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
There are a lot of things the Wiki entry and links left out.

Most of the votes were for a party, not a person. With the exception of a handful of people, there were no candidates per se on the ballot. Most people had no idea what the party they were voting for stood for. Because of the lack of electricity, and more important - security, no party wrote up position statements, and the little information there was, was virtually undistributed. Nearly all ballots were distributed at the last minute, creating voter confusion - with long lists of unrecognized and cryptic party names. Since the party names were unrecognized, the positions unstated, and the actual candidates not identified, the voting itself was fairly random, often based on whether the person handing out the ballots was known to the voter and what they recommended, or, more commonly, by any religious identification gleaned from rumor. Turnout was low, and the vote was boycotted by Sunnis b/c of a fatwah that was issued. And like the old computer acronym - GIGO. Iraq now has a broken government apparently answerable to and representative of no one, with Sunni's out of the process completely.

Yup, that worked out well.


Security / electrical concerns aside, you just described the last American election.
If the democratic elections had not happened when they did, would you be more or less incensed? (Damned if you do...)
Either way, try not to marginalize the brave souls who risked life and limb to vote, a vital step in the process IMHO.

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