REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

USA: Police State? II

POSTED BY: RUE
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 06:52
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Friday, October 19, 2007 7:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Sig, all you have to say is that the courts have clearly upheld the rights of folks like Bill Neel to have dissenting signs along the causeway of a presidential motorcade. We have found 'case law'.
Yeah, but why does Hero sign on with the Nazis every time?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 7:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:


I prosecuted some sign waver types protesting abortion at one of the City's fairs back in June. Which is odd...because the Abortion Festival is in August...come on down next year...good food, good music...

I also prosecuted a father who was demonstrating against his child support payments by marching with a sign outside his ex's house (its actually my all time favorite case). He was on the sidewalk, had a nice sign too, but still it violated the Protection Order she had, so I sent him to jail for 10 days. He argued free speech too. Turns out free speech does not include the right to violate a protection order. Had a similar case of a guy who gave his wife the finger and then argued free speech. Same result.


There is good in you after all, Lex Hero!

Kal-Elisall



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Friday, October 19, 2007 9:01 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Just my take - if you are going to restrict people with anti-signs in a public venue (anti -Bush -war -pollution -etc) you should ALSO restrict people with pro-signs. The same thing goes for t-shirts and other non-violent forms of expression. Otherwise you're censoring content.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 19, 2007 9:10 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Just my take - if you are going to restrict people with anti-signs in a public venue (anti -Bush -war -pollution -etc) you should ALSO restrict people with pro-signs. The same thing goes for t-shirts and other non-violent forms of expression. Otherwise you're censoring content.


Agreed.
But wait- then things would be fair.
Hmmmm. Gotta think about this one...

Imagine a fair world Chrisisall

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Friday, October 19, 2007 10:18 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
But wait- then things would be fair.
Hmmmm. Gotta think about this one...


Its only fair to the protester. Its not fair to the speaker. Both have an equal right to be heard, neither has a right to interfere with the other. I'm standing up for the right of both sides to have an area where they can speak there mind to those willing to listen without interferrance or interuption from the other side.

That's free speech. I note for the record that the Nazi approach is to make sure the Nazis had a place where they can speak their mind to those forced to listen without interferrance or interruption because there is no other side.

I think calling reasonable rules that protect and apply to everyone, including those who don't want to hear from either side, Nazi fascism is...just plain stupid. I know you didn't say I was siding with the Nazis, but it was said by someone expressing the same frustration at not being able to impose their message on unwilling eyes and ears at times and places of their choosing.

But the person who said it has every right to say it. Unless I've had them executed. If I have, I concede the point, if you dissenters are still alive, free, and able to express your opinion...then perhaps you might consider conceding my point.

H

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Friday, October 19, 2007 10:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"neither has a right to interfere with the other"

So what would you say about 'silent protests' - signs, banners, t-shirts, mimes - certainly allowing for one side to be 'heard' without interference. Should they be 'allowed' to participate as an audience in a public event - such as a parade or motorcade ? Or a private event like a speech ?

***************************************************************
SUKARNO,
FEED
YOUR
PEOPLE

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Friday, October 19, 2007 11:20 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Its only fair to the protester. Its not fair to the speaker. Both have an equal right to be heard, neither has a right to interfere with the other.

I see where you're coming from with this, H.
I guess it just the details that we don't quite see eye-to-eye on. A t-shirt or a sign that says speaker X sucks isn't interference, whereas yelling or blocking the way is IMO.

Atypically serious Chrisisall

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Friday, October 19, 2007 12:44 PM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by leadb:
There were about 220 arrests during the protests with only 4 convictions. ' That seems like a pretty poor ratio.


Actually its right on the money. The reason is that, as a Prosecutor, I'm more concerned with real criminals then liberal sign wavers. Sure, if they cause a real problem or resist the officers, or somebody gets out of hand...then its game on and I'm sending them to jail.

But if its just a silly little protest thing without the aggrevating factors then what's the harm? The person was arrested, the event is over, and unless the President is coming back again, which is unlikely since he averages a trip to this area once every couple hundred years...then we call it even (usually the Defendant pays court costs).

Its not so much that we're being nice. We just don't want the paperwork.

Actually, that does provide some reassuring context. This only leaves as my concern is how many of those 200 odd cases -could- have resulted in suit against the city if the folks only had the time and interest to make the point... but I concede, it is merely a concern, and I can't imagine being able to do the research to get a decent answer.
Quote:

{...}
I also prosecuted a father who was demonstrating against his child support payments by marching with a sign outside his ex's house {...}
H

well done! Guy sounds like an idiot.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 1:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I don't see where H is coming from at all. A person gets up to ask a long-winded question in a strident tone of voice. He is hustled out and, on the way, tasered. A person stands on a curbside with a sign and is hustled away.

Over time, and in some instances, Hero might be talked down from his knee-jerk response, but his FIRST response is always "hang 'em high".

I agree that as a practical matter, one should not "stand on one's rights" while facing a man with a gun. It's like my SO says: "ALWAYS treat a man with a gun like... a man with a gun". Still, what I see is not a desire to be "fair" but waaaaay too much deference to authority. The kind of deference that tries to portray a motorcade, or ANY kind of public appearance, as some kind of "private" affair. The kind of deference that stifles any sort of dissent, until one is left standing silent in the middle of ones livingroom wearing a protest T-shirt because it won't "disturb" anyone there. Orderliness above all.

There IS a difference between protesting child support payments and protesting a policy. Remember, our officials are public officials.


---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 2:50 PM

LEADB


I don't mean to defend Hero, but I suspect part of the reason he tends to assume what he does is that, as a prosecutor, the vast majority of folks he sees saying 'hey, I gots my free speaches, ya know' are probably idiots acting in ways we'd probably not condone. So, he probably has literally a twenty (or more) instances of such to the very few items we can come up with (where the burden of proof is, to him, going to be someone who won out to the final appeal). So, for better or worse, he has his bias (and we all have some).

On the flip side, he sure does seem fond of advocating the tasering; and that does still worry me a bit. There's got to be some grounds for a more moderate response. It will be interesting to see how the UF incident plays out both in the courts and UF's policies.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 3:11 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


BTW - the 'Sukarno, feed your people' reference was to 'The Year of Living Dangerously' for those who haven't seen it.

In it one person has this secret scheme for when Sukarno comes though in a motorcade. And that person is SO secretive in their preparations, SO reluctant to let on to anyone what it's about - even people they seem to trust, SO gleeful about their plans, SO optimistic that it will change things - one is left to speculate - what is that they'll do ? Shoot Sukarno ? Blow him up ?

In the end, the grand plan is to hang a banner from a 5th or 6th floor window - which says - Sukarno, feed your people. They hang the sign, security comes up with guns blazing, the sign is taken down and Sukarno passes by, never knowing what happened. So that Sukarno's motorcade could be a grand political success, untroubled by even mild dissent.

You all should see the movie. It has a lot of relevance to Bush.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:36 PM

LEADB


So, anyone know of a place where Bush is due to drive by we can lower a banner from a 6th story window from so we can take a real temperature of the political climate?

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:42 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Oh, I was on my way and saw this.

I think we should just carry anti-Bush signs and (in a peaceful, non-violent, passive-resistance way) not comply with police when they ask us to move.

How's your heart - up to a taser or two ? And that arrest record - looks good on you. But the real benefit - getting on a secret list - you'll never be able to enjoy b/c, well, it's a secret.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 6:49 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't see where H is coming from at all. A person gets up to ask a long-winded question in a strident tone of voice. He is hustled out and, on the way, tasered. A person stands on a curbside with a sign and is hustled away.


I think we are arguing about a very narrow subject. Generally a person protesting a motorcade is not going to be hussled away. It simply does not happen except when it does.

The only occaisions in which it might happen is if there is a security concern. I don't think anybody has a problem with a 'better safe then sorry' security issue. The only other time is the VERY RARE occaison when the parade or motorcade is a psrt of the event. Such as a visit to a disaster area, a campaign stop, a gay rights parade, a Klan rally...and such. In those rare circumstances often the two...security and political...combine and a limited intrusion, narrowly tailored, to serve a govt interest (ie protecting free speech and security) is appropriate. Often, given the limited nature of the event, local judges will then throw out the arrests unless there was some reason not too (like violence).

Quote:


Over time, and in some instances, Hero might be talked down from his knee-jerk response, but his FIRST response is always "hang 'em high".


Great movie. But I prefer 'The Outlaw Josey Wales'. I have been known to ask a Defense Attorney "Are you gonna plead your client or whistle Dixie?"

I was born in the south.

H

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 7:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I think we are arguing about a very narrow subject. Generally a person protesting a motorcade is not going to be hussled away. It simply does not happen except when it does. The only occaisions in which it might happen is if there is a security concern.
Baloney.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 6:52 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I don't think anybody has a problem with a 'better safe then sorry' security issue."

Until you end up wearing your t-shirt alone in your living room b/c anything else is too disruptive to peace and security.

BTW 'Hero' to be absolutely clear, people DO get removed and sometimes arrested for having the 'wrong' t-shirt or the 'wrong' sign.

And yes, we can tell you were born in the south.



***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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