REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Naomi Wolf's The End of America: Police State IV

POSTED BY: HKCAVALIER
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 07:56
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2298
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Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:15 AM

HKCAVALIER


(Edit: changed III to IV, I'd missed III until leadb, gave me the heads up--thanks, leadb.)

From the introduction to her new book:

"Most of us have only a faint understanding of how societies open up or close down, become supportive of freedom or ruled by fear, because this is not the kind of history that we feel, or that our educational system believes, is important for us to know. Another reason for our vagueness about how liberty lives or dies is that we have tended lately to subcontract out the tasks of the patriot: to let the professionals -- lawyers, scholars, activists, politicians -- worry about understanding the Constitution and protecting our rights. We think that "they" should manage our rights, the way we hire a professional to do our taxes; "they" should run the government, create policy, worry about whether democracy is up and running. We're busy."

And here's a video of a talk she gave the other night at the University of Washington. She pretty much says it all. Check it out:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18570.htm

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:46 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


We survived Japanese-American citizens being rounded up into camps.

We survived The Fairness Doctrine( so far ).

In Germany, in the 30's, they were struggling w/ a horrendous depression, and the after effects of losing WW1. Things weren't good and they weren't good for a very long time over there.

Not everything can be viewed from OUR perspective alone. Removing historical context is a grevious error which can often be made in order to promote an agenda.

( I tried to watch the vid, but only got to step 1 of her top 10 list. Might try watching later, but I think I know where this is heading )




People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 4:20 PM

HKCAVALIER


You make a good point, AURaptor. America has managed to come back from the edge before. More than once. I think, if any nation on earth has a system in place to keep fascism at bay, it's our checks and balances. And I do have faith in the American people, if it comes to that. Also, as I've thought about it today, it occurs to me that the United States is simply much bigger than Germany or Iran or Italy. Hard to imagine that any faction could gain so much control that they could really push us ALL around, from Miami to Juno, y'know?

And yet I think Ms. Wolf's analysis is sound. We may be in a much better position to ward off would-be tyrants, but it's good to be shown that what the Admin is saying today, tyrants of the past have also said--you know, in striking detail. Even if the U.S. is gonna weather this admin. and turn back before going off the cliff, I think it's a good idea to take a good, hard look at that cliff.

I know you've prolly heard a lot of what Ms. Wolf has to say before, but she brings a lot of disparate issues into focus in a relatively short talk. I hope you find the time to give her a full hearing.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 4:30 PM

LEADB


There's already a police state III thread, I think you should use IV.

Edit: Heh, I see you changed it. I was mostly teasing, but still not a bad idea.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 4:44 PM

LEADB


This hits home
'We think that "they" should manage our rights, the way we hire a professional to do our taxes; "they" should run the government, create policy, worry about whether democracy is up and running. We're busy.'
I'll concede I was, for the most part, in that mind set, wanting to find someone competent to run things. I'm getting to the point of being ticked and wanting to fire the lot of 'em and get a clean start. But it seems like you have to find someone to back fill all those empty slots... (This is where Frem jumps in and suggests that part of the solution might be to at least reduce the number of slots while we're at it, and I'll say 'good point' ;-) )

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Friday, October 19, 2007 3:47 PM

LEADB


Bill Lets U.S. Citizens Be Held as Enemy Combatants
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6167856
Quote:

To Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, that sounds as if the administration is saying, "Trust us." And with a phrase as general as "material support," he's not comfortable doing that.'
And frankly, I don't -trust- this administration on this point. In general, this article 'plays right into' Naomi Wolf's presentation.

Edit: If you decide you'd like to search for more information, the 'formal' name of the bill is:

Military Commissions Act of 2006

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:05 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Bill Lets U.S. Citizens Be Held as Enemy Combatants

YEAs ---65

Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Burr (R-NC)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Roberts (R-KS)
Santorum (R-PA)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

Carper (D-DE)
Johnson (D-SD)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Salazar (D-CO)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Stabenow (D-MI)


NAYs ---34

Chafee (R-RI)

Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Wyden (D-OR)

Jeffords (I-VT)

Not Voting ---1
Snowe (R-ME)


***************************************************************
No wonder 'Hero' is a repubican. It's just his type of crowd.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:12 PM

LEADB


On the flip side....

====
A house bill that may push back against some of the issues pointed out in the presentation:

American Freedom Agenda Act of 2007 (Introduced in House)
http://www.americanfreedomcampaign.org/storage/afagenda/documents/AFA%
20Act%20text.pdf


This was introduced only a few days ago.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm not going to get my hopes up. Really. I'm not.

***************************************************************
Hope against hope.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The plain fact of the matter is that MOST Americans are not interested in their "rights" and the FF set the bar too high. What most people want is stability, a decent job, and a nice neighborhood. Then when things don't go well (war, civil war, terrorism, economic depression) they're subject to taking extreme action: rounding up people, waging war, rioting in the streets. Most Americans will give up their rights in a heartbeat if they're afraid.

And it doesn't take much to make us panic lately because we're self-satified, brainwashed to the hilt, and we've had it pretty easy over the past 40 years, all told.

The only thing that has kept us from becoming a tyranny is the fact that we just haven't been pushed very hard. If we ever get pushed like 1920's Germany was pushed, we'd have our own fuhrer within a year.



---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:30 PM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I'm not going to get my hopes up. Really. I'm not.

***************************************************************
Hope against hope.

True, but the sponsor of the Bill clearly putting his political principles right where folks can see 'em. Beats the crud out of the opposition.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:38 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


LeadB
I would love to stay and chat, but a nasty migrane that dogged me a few days ago seems to be back. I hope you have a good one and find thoughtful conversation.

SignyM
Thank you too for the back and forth as well. Take care and I'll see you here on the other side of the weekend.



***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 3:27 AM

LEADB


Rue,
Sorry to hear about the migraine; hope it has settled out and stays settled out.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 4:19 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
We survived Japanese-American citizens being rounded up into camps.

We survived The Fairness Doctrine( so far ).


Kudos for the optimism, I just think it should be combined with a healthy skepticism of the agenda of those in economic and political power...

the vigilant Chrisisall

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 4:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I wuld like to address this in detail
Quote:

And yet I think Ms. Wolf's analysis is sound. We may be in a much better position to ward off would-be tyrants
If we are, it's because of our economy and relative isolation, not because we have a democratic system or a deep-seated commitment to freedom. Most Americans' minds have split from reality when it comes to politics, economics, and religion. They have faith that Their Invisible Friend Upstairs, or Daddy President, or Jack Bauer are going to Save Us From the Evildoer. They believe that our violence is Righteous and then are shocked when people don't like us. So far we have't experienced hyperinflation, serious economic depression, or a committed atack on our soil. 9-11 was just a nose-tweak. If anything serious should happen to us... when reality cracks the comfortable little shell that people have around their mind-set- they'll go crazy.
Quote:

but it's good to be shown that what the Admin is saying today, tyrants of the past have also said--you know, in striking detail.
A good leader will calm peoples' fears, educate them in the realities of the world, and try to make things better. An evil leader will take advantage of a fearful population by stoking their fears, pandering to their worst impulses, using that panic to gather power, and doing everything possible to make the situation worse.
Quote:

Even if the U.S. is gonna weather this admin. and turn back before going off the cliff, I think it's a good idea to take a good, hard look at that cliff.
I suspect that we're already off the cliff, we just don't know it yet. If the dollar goes into freefall and people experience hardship like they haven't experienced in living memory, watch out. Right now, I'm not sure that Hillary if she is elected (spits, makes warding evil sign) can or will reverse the economic, military, and diplomatic nightmare that GWBush spent eight years creating. I suspect that the fall of the dollar is irreversible in the short run (over the next five years or so) and that reversing what Bush set in motion will take a radical change in policy... too radical for the majority of sleepwalking Americans.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 4:45 AM

CANTTAKESKY


How is this for police state?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/nyregion/18movealong.html?_r=1&oref=
slogin

Quote:


ALBANY, Oct. 17 — Millions of people have paused to stand amid the hustle, bustle and neon of Times Square.

And sure, those who pause — to gawk, talk or eat a gyro — can slow the progress of pedestrians around them.

But when Matthew Jones of Brooklyn lingered on the corner of 42nd Street and Seventh Avenue in the early morning of June 12, 2004, gabbing with friends as other pedestrians tried to get by, something unusual happened: He was arrested for it.





Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, I'm sure Hero will come up with yet another explanation as to why this arrest was perfectly reasonable. Just to add more from the article, which would be funny if it weren't a little frightening
Quote:

His colleague Judge Eugene F. Pigott Jr. questioned what other violations might attract law enforcement attention.

“All I could think of was a bunch of lawyers from the New York City Bar Association standing around trying to figure out where to have lunch,” Judge Pigott said. (The association has offices a block and a half from Times Square.) Chief Judge Judith S. Kaye seemed likewise nonplused. “This is at 2 a.m.?” she asked, wondering how many pedestrians it would have been possible to inconvenience at that hour. “I guess I’m not in Times Square at 2 a.m. very often.”

The court is likely to rule on the case next month. Should it rule against Mr. Jones, the available evidence on the scene on Wednesday suggested that the police would soon have their hands full. Just before 5 p.m., near the corner where Mr. Jones was arrested, stood the following assemblage: a man eating clams out of a Styrofoam container; two men smoking cigarettes together; a man waiting for a woman to finish a phone call; a guy looking at a map; a young woman sending a text message; two men handing out tour brochures; and a family of five, including an infant in a stroller, who stopped to look at the brochures.




---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:17 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
How is this for police state?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/nyregion/18movealong.html?_r=1&oref=
slogin


ANYTHING is illegal, given the dedication of the cause. That's why lawyers.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:27 AM

CANTTAKESKY


What scares me is not that there is a law on the books against loitering (in case someone is truly disrupting pedestrian traffic), or that some asshole cop with nothing better to do decided to arrest Mr. Jones. What scares me is that this case went before 2 courts and the arrest was STILL upheld. I expected better judgment from our judges than that. What scares me is that Mr. Jones was coerced by *an entire system* to plead guilty, for doing something anyone of us could have done.

To me, that is the definition of a police state. When the state no longer just comes for "them" (criminals) and comes for any one of us.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky
Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:35 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
What scares me is that Mr. Jones was coerced by *an entire system* to plead guilty, for doing something anyone of us could have done.


I have been there. Cuffed for pleading innocent in court to a traffic ticket (that I really WAS innocent of), and threatened with a night in jail. "You're not gonna win this one" was whispered to me.


I didn't Chrisisall

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 6:36 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Cuffed for pleading innocent in court to a traffic ticket (that I really WAS innocent of), and threatened with a night in jail. "You're not gonna win this one" was whispered to me.


Yeah right. Unless you refused to sign the ticket...in which its a slightly less emphatic...'yeah right'.

Generally you can't be arrested for sommons offenses. The Supreme Court, however, has more recently relaxed the rule. I tell my cops not to do it unless the absolutely have too (as in the fella is being all disorderly and refusing orders to calm down and such).

"You're not gonna win this one" is actually a rather common thing. Its a little voice that people hear in their heads WHEN THEY ARE GUILTY.

Oddly, I always assume that I'll win every time...and guess what...I'm almost always right. I only prosecute guilty people. If I believe they are not guilty, its my duty as an officer of the court NOT to prosecute them. I have reduced charges, amended charges, dismissed charges (and lectured a racist cop in one case), and on occaison added charges...all to reflect my reading of the facts and the case. I give a lot of leeway to the Officers, since they were on scene, and independent witnesses, but ultimately its my decision and I decided when I first started to only prosecute guilty people (and PirateNews if he ever comes this way, and he'll be guilty too...one way or another).

H


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Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:31 AM

LEADB


Guilty of what?

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 4:51 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Yeah right. Unless you refused to sign the ticket...in which its a slightly less emphatic...'yeah right'.

Generally you can't be arrested for summons offenses.


Uh, dumass, I wasn't arrested- I showed up for court, and I had the precise page of the traffic rule book (supplied to me by my friendly neighborhood cops at 7-11) that cited passing on the right is *permitted* on a two lane divided highway...that little voice was not in my head, it was the bailiff offering what he must have considered friendly advice...the city of Glen Cove, Long Island is known for it's judicial corruption, I later found out. They don't like you wasting their time with substantive defenses where their precious fines are concerned. That's apparently considered 'contempt' there.

Sorry about the 'dumass', it still sticks in my craw....

One of the little peeps Chrisisall

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:39 PM

LEADB


Chrisall,
One thing that you must keep in mind, Hero expects that the 'system' is working; and when the system breaks, things come apart real quick. I will even risk saying that Hero is likely the sorta guy who has no patience for such corruption and would take such a judicial problem 'to task'


Hero, what is the proper re-dress for someone in Chrisall's shoes, assuming he/she really is innocent and has a substantive defense? Take the time for appeals? Can you even appeal a traffic summons? Can you get your money back if you bring in a lawyer?

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:25 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by leadb:
Hero, what is the proper re-dress for someone in Chrisall's shoes, assuming he/she really is innocent and has a substantive defense? Take the time for appeals? Can you even appeal a traffic summons? Can you get your money back if you bring in a lawyer?


I've never heard of anyone "cuffed for entering a not-guilty plea", unless they got unruly, which happens (had a guy come in drunk the other day...blew .314).

Without knowing the facts I can't tell you what he can or should do. He has a right to a trial. If there is a possibility of incarceration (not the case for Minor Misdemeanor Traffic offenses) then he has the right to an appointed attorney if he cannot afford one. If he can afford one, he can hire one and no, he will not be reimbersed for the cost. Some places will allow you to file a claim against the State or City to get some money if your not guilty. In Ohio if you get a DUS (Driving All Suspended Like) and your not really suspended you can sue the BMV if in the Court of Claims to get reimbersed for Atty Fees, towing fees, etc.

H

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:32 PM

LEADB


Thanks Hero.

Chrisall,
If things are as corrupt as you have been led to believe, the system is somewhat(or rather completely) broken down. It's real hard to get a fix in, and I believe that at times the Feds can and will step in; however, it's obviously not a trivial step. Frem has spoken of some of the activities the Feds have done in the legal system in his area, and it sounds like it has not been horribly effective, nor swift by any stretch of the imagination.

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 7:56 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I've never heard of anyone "cuffed for entering a not-guilty plea""

Remember, this is the same guy who never heard of people being kept away from parade routes for having the 'wrong' sign, or being arrested for not leaving with their 'wrong' sign, or being ejected from a speech and then arrested for having the 'wrong' t-shirt. Though politically 'right' signs and t-shirts were allowed.

When it comes to who do I trust for the straight story, I'll listen to ChrisIsAll over Hero any day.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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