REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The New 'Neo' Discussion That Folks seemed to want...

POSTED BY: HERO
UPDATED: Sunday, November 4, 2007 06:58
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Friday, November 2, 2007 10:10 AM

HERO


I thought the best way to kick off this discussion was with "The Speech" by Ronald Reagan:

My favorite is the last paragraph...

Quote:


A Time For Choosing

I am going to talk of controversial things. I make no apology for this.

It's time we asked ourselves if we still know the freedoms intended for us by the Founding Fathers. James Madison said, "We base all our experiments on the capacity of mankind for self government."

This idea that government was beholden to the people, that it had no other source of power is still the newest, most unique idea in all the long history of man's relation to man. This is the issue of this election: Whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon the American Revolution and confess that a little intellectual elite in a far-distant capital can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them ourselves.

You and I are told we must choose between a left and right, but I suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down. Up to man's age-old dream-the maximum of individual freedom consistent with order or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. Regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would sacrifice freedom for security have embarked on this downward path. Plutarch warned, "The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits."

The Founding Fathers knew a government can't control the economy without controlling people. And they knew when a government sets out to do that, it must use force and coercion to achieve its purpose. So we have come to a time for choosing.

Public servants say, always with the best of intentions, "What greater service we could render if only we had a little more money and a little more power." But the truth is that outside of its legitimate function, government does nothing as well or as economically as the private sector.

Yet any time you and I question the schemes of the do-gooders, we're denounced as being opposed to their humanitarian goals. It seems impossible to legitimately debate their solutions with the assumption that all of us share the desire to help the less fortunate. They tell us we're always "against," never "for" anything.

We are for a provision that destitution should not follow unemployment by reason of old age, and to that end we have accepted Social Security as a step toward meeting the problem. However, we are against those entrusted with this program when they practice deception regarding its fiscal shortcomings, when they charge that any criticism of the program means that we want to end payments....

We are for aiding our allies by sharing our material blessings with nations which share our fundamental beliefs, but we are against doling out money government to government, creating bureaucracy, if not socialism, all over the world.

We need true tax reform that will at least make a start toward restoring for our children the American Dream that wealth is denied to no one, that each individual has the right to fly as high as his strength and ability will take him.... But we can not have such reform while our tax policy is engineered by people who view the tax as a means of achieving changes in our social structure....

Have we the courage and the will to face up to the immorality and discrimination of the progressive tax, and demand a return to traditional proportionate taxation? . . . Today in our country the tax collector's share is 37 cents of every dollar earned. Freedom has never been so fragile, so close to slipping from our grasp.

Are you willing to spend time studying the issues, making yourself aware, and then conveying that information to family and friends? Will you resist the temptation to get a government handout for your community? Realize that the doctor's fight against socialized medicine is your fight. We can't socialize the doctors without socializing the patients. Recognize that government invasion of public power is eventually an assault upon your own business. If some among you fear taking a stand because you are afraid of reprisals from customers, clients, or even government, recognize that you are just feeding the crocodile hoping he'll eat you last.

If all of this seems like a great deal of trouble, think what's at stake. We are faced with the most evil enemy mankind has known in his long climb from the swamp to the stars. There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no fiscal and economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation.

They say the world has become too complex for simple answers. They are wrong. There are no easy answers, but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right. Winston Churchill said that "the destiny of man is not measured by material computation. When great forces are on the move in the world, we learn we are spirits-not animals." And he said, "There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty."

You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we will sentence them to take the first step into a thousand years of darkness. If we fail, at least let our children and our children's children say of us we justified our brief moment here. We did all that could be done.


My favorite is the last paragraph...

H



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Friday, November 2, 2007 10:32 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
I thought the best way to kick off this discussion was with "The Speech" by Ronald Reagan:

My favorite is the last paragraph...

Quote:


A Time For Choosing

.....

You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we will sentence them to take the first step into a thousand years of darkness. If we fail, at least let our children and our children's children say of us we justified our brief moment here. We did all that could be done.



My favorite is the last paragraph...

H



So no crying when we are asked to sacrifice a lil for new energy resources? How much does it take to light a lightbulb for a thousand years of darkness?

Or are we still stuck on the who's right/wrong on Global W. merry-go-round in here? Doesn't matter, still paying peeps now.

If u are afraid of pork, fight the other 100 things gov't money's wasted on. Preferrably ones that have NO possibility of improving American industry and innovation.

Just took that generic motivating paragraph for my own, not attacking u in particular Hero.


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Friday, November 2, 2007 11:06 AM

SERGEANTX


So this Reagan speech seems to reflect values associated with "paleo-conservatism". My understanding is that neo-cons are defined by how they differ from these values. They're more friendly to proactive government and willing to use it to further their conception of societal virtues.

But I've read wildly differing descriptions of the term. The characterization I'm using aligns with what I've seen in the policies of the Bush administration, who have abandoned most of the libertarian aspects of conservatism in favor of a powerful state. The Bush administration has also been heavily influenced by ideas of the "Project For New American Century", and I've always seen it as a concentrated collection of neo-conservative thinking, but I'm not sure if they consider themselves that to be 'neo-cons' or not.

The following is from the wikipedia article on neo-cons. Parts of the write-up seemed questionable, but this list of 'neo-con' values seems about right.


Quote:

Irving Kristol, the "god-father" and one of the founders of Neoconservatism, stated five basic policies of Neoconservatism that distinguish it from other "movements" or "persuasions"[10]. These policies, he claimed, "result in popular Republican presidencies":

1. Taxes and Federal Budget: "Cutting tax rates in order to stimulate steady economic growth. This policy was not invented by neocons, and it was not the particularities of tax cuts that interested them, but rather the steady focus on economic growth." In Kristol's view, neocons are and should be less concerned about balancing fiscal budgets than traditional conservatives: "One sometimes must shoulder budgetary deficits as the cost (temporary, one hopes) of pursuing economic growth."[10]

2. Size of Government: Kristol distinguishes between Neoconservatives and the call of traditional conservatives for smaller government. "Neocons do not feel ... alarm or anxiety about the growth of the state in the past century, seeing it as natural, indeed inevitable."[10]

3. Traditional Moral Values: "The steady decline in our democratic culture, sinking to new levels of vulgarity, does unite neocons with traditional conservatives". Here Kristol distinguishes between traditional conservatives and libertarian conservatives. He cites the shared interest of Neocons and Religious Conservates in using the government to enforce morality: "Since the Republican party now has a substantial base among the religious, this gives neocons a certain influence and even power."[10]

4. Expansionist Foreign Policy: "Statesmen should ... distinguish friends from enemies." And according to Kristol, "with power come responsibilities ... if you have the kind of power we now have, either you will find opportunities to use it, or the world will discover them for you."[10]

5. National Interest: "the United States of today, inevitably ... [will] feel obliged to defend ... a democratic nation under attack from nondemocratic forces ...that is why it was in our national interest to come to the defense of France and Britain in World War II ... that is why we feel it necessary to defend Israel today."[10]




SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, November 2, 2007 11:56 AM

LEADB


Quote:

You and I are told we must choose between a left and right, but I suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down. Up to man's age-old dream-the maximum of individual freedom consistent with order or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. Regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would sacrifice freedom for security have embarked on this downward path. Plutarch warned, "The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits."
Is more interesting to me. I think that the 'downward path' is more marked by a concession of liberties to the government; after all, folks don't need to defeat us to take our freedom away if we simply hand it over. To re-emphasize: 'those who would sacrifice freedom for security have embarked on this downward path.'

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Friday, November 2, 2007 3:53 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Ronald Reagan had many faces: Democrat, Republican, Communist (NeoCon), FBI rat, JKF killer (Reagan Assassinations Commission), gun-grabber, NAFTA traitor (NeoCon), MKULTRA sex-slave trader, Bohemian Grove Satanist living at a street address of 666, sued under RICO Act for narco-terror bombings, Iran-Contra traitor (hired Iran to kidnap US embassy hostages and hold them until the minute of their inaugeration), demented father of a drug-dealing stripper who did not recognize his own son at his high school graduation, and Bush crime victim sucker. That's why both Ronny and Nancy publicly hated George Bush Sr, before, during and after the White House.

Quote:

“Ronald Reagan was a Communist in Hollywood during the time of the heavy infiltration of Communism in that movie capital just after World War II ended. Reagan was the President of the Screen Actors’ Guild and was commonly known as “Red Ronnie.” Much more could be said about his subversive activities, but suffice it to say that it was Ronald Reagan who is directly responsible for bringing de facto Communism to the United States and providing the “Red” Gorbachev with an office in San Francisco, California, at the Presidio. KGB director Gorbachev now presides over a conspiratorial operation of the Illuminati known as the “State of the World Forum.” I stood at his office and prayed against his activities.”
www.apfn.net/messageboard/03-28-05/discussion.cgi.28.html



But Reagan had moments of sanity, which is why Bush had to have him shot 3 months after the elction.

Quote:

"Not one dime of income taxes goes to support any federal program."
-President Ronald Reagan, right before George Bushes' CIA friend John Hinkley Jr was arrested for shooting him, promoting NeoCon Sir George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire to president 8 years early (Bush Jr released the assassin from prison)


www.voxfux.com/features/hinckley_bush_connection.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Bush
www.freedomtofascism.com

Ronald Reagan supports Captain Ron Paul MD USAF












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Friday, November 2, 2007 8:02 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


What a joke. I remember that speech. That stuff reads well. And no one could read it etter than Ron. Regardless when you delve in, it's a load of bull.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 4:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Veteran:
What a joke. I remember that speech. That stuff reads well. And no one could read it etter than Ron. Regardless when you delve in, it's a load of bull.



This country has been lost w/ out the light that was Ronald Reagan. He knew how great this country could be, and instead we have folks trying to destroy what makes America best.

My outlook for the future, far down the road, isn't very optimistic.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 10:01 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we will sentence them to take the first step into a thousand years of darkness. If we fail, at least let our children and our children's children say of us we justified our brief moment here. We did all that could be done.
My favorite is the last paragraph...

Yes, it has an almost heroic nature to it. It reminds me of the last few lines of Tennyson’s Ulysses:

Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

That was what made Reagan such a great leader. He was ever the optimist and never saw the US for it’s faults, but for how its’ strength could overcome those faults. That kind of optimism appealed to a wide variety of people.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 11:08 AM

LEADB


I will say this; while there was much in policy I disagreed with Reagan on; I'd take a Reagan over Bush II any time.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 5:48 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

This country has been lost w/ out the light that was Ronald Reagan. He knew how great this country could be, and instead we have folks trying to destroy what makes America best.



While some historically significant events happend during "The Regan Years", Ronald Reagan is overrated as a President. He was a great orator but certainly no guding light.

As far as making American great, I can't say that drug dealing, selling arms to our enemies, and later claiming that the ends justify the means isn't un-American. It's just not my view of what America should be about.

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Sunday, November 4, 2007 6:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Read the speech. I'm sure Reagan didn't write it, but it any case it's a load of crap. Sounds good, tho.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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