REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Bush's State of the Nation speech

POSTED BY: CRUITHNE3753
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 17:17
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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:44 AM

CRUITHNE3753


What's with all the crazed applause? Do people get shot for not applauding hard enough?

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:07 AM

WASHNWEAR


Quote:

Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
What's with all the crazed applause? Do people get shot for not applauding hard enough?



Well, Cheney was there sitting right behind Bush...and I coulda swore I saw a suspicious bulge under his left arm...though I suppose he may have just been happy to see Nancy.

Yeah...I think the way it works is you're either shot by Cheney or Pelosi purses her lips at you. Ya know, if I'm anything I'm a Dem, and I think I'd take the shooting...

It was all chips and dips and Pelosi's lips when we got here!

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:07 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
What's with all the crazed applause?


Its tradition.

I'm a long time Bush fan and I think this is one of the best State of the Union speeches I've heard...but not because it was a great speech...because for once it actually gave us a clear picture of the true state of our Union.

In short, an enthusiastic President did a fair job giving a poorly written speech filled with few original ideas to a disinterested Congress and disappointed American people.

That is the state of our Union.

The Democratic response started strong, but the lady Governor is clearly not ready for prime time.

I liked the part on FOX that followed the President with full audio as he exited the chamber...I don't recall seeing that before and it was interesting to watch. Guy must have signed a hundred autographs too...seems if you like his policies or not, George Bush is a fairly nice fella. I always thought Bill Clinton was like that too, get him away from the politics and he'd be somebody you could sit down and have dinner with...ribs...and beer. Hillary would never sit down and have ribs with you...unless you were a contributor...

Truth is if you can't see yourself eating a slab of ribs with them (or a nice brisket for the Texans) then we really should not be putting them in office.

Anybody ever had Firefly BBQ sauce or rub? I got some from the BBQ Sauce of the Month Club...very nice.

H

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:19 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:


I'm a long time Bush fan

You took the blue pill.

That explains it Chrisisall

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I thought it was kinda interesting when Bush shook his finger at Congress for too much pork and they all stood up and applauded. Even the biggest offenders.

The State of the Union is a irony-free zone.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:41 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

The State of the Union is a irony-free zone.


Much like our own RWED at times, it seems.

Clapping Chrisisall



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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:46 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:


I'm a long time Bush fan

(ouch)
Quote:

and I think this is one of the best State of the Union speeches I've heard...but not because it was a great speech...because
...... because it was his LAST!.....

as far as tradition goes... i think the tradition is to get good and loaded before showing up to listen to the same old BS.... Hill looked a tad tipsy

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 11:12 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
You took the blue pill.


I've never needed a pill.

H

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 12:01 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Then why did you take it ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 12:03 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I started listening to the speech - but I got tired of mentally tallying all the lies. So though it was on, I stopped listening. It was just so much blah blah blah.

***************************************************************
:rolls eyes: WHATever !

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 12:06 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Then why did you take it ?


It makes his steak taste juicy and delicious.
Among other things.

Smithisall

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 12:15 PM

GORAMMAN


I promissed myself that I would stay out of these types of threads and just concentrate on the workings of the 'Verse. But today I have failed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Truth is if you can't see yourself eating a slab of ribs with them (or a nice brisket for the Texans) then we really should not be putting them in office.



Oh my good lord in heaven help us. A lot of people think like this. There is a term for it and it is "Identity Politics." The belief that someone personally acceptable to you would be perfectly qualified and deserving of a position in public service is very pervasive. It's reasoning like this that give pollsters so much clout in our media. Because they know huge chunks of all demographics they have identified will not stray too far from their own idealized IMAGE of what a leader is and that image is reflective of SELF IMAGE.

The Maverick Congressman. The Cowboy President. The Fighter for Common Folk. These are the messages they send us and they work whether they are true or not. Of course it doesn't stop with elections. Yesterday I saw a book at a store titled God is a Salesman. Really Mr. Stevens? My father is a damn good salesman. Does that make him more Godly?

I've never understood this thinking because I've never had any epiphanies that must occur as follows:

- I'm at the stern wheel festival by the river sampling some of the vendors BBQ. Lo and behold a politician shows up and I observe him eating. I then walk up to him and say, "Mr. Politician, I can tell by the way you eat ribs with your fingers and don't wipe your mouth off with a napkin between every bite that you would be the perfect person to set monetary policy for our nation."

- I'm at the local dive bar and three sheets to the wind. A Jock is talking about nailing an Asian chick. I'm so impressed by his success that I say, "Jock, I can tell by the way you bagged that babe you have a thorough understanding of Sino-Amercan history and commerce and would do much to create a balance of trade with third world dictatorships that benefit from slave labor driven export buisness."

- I'm at my favorite coffee shop and it's open mic night. A Yale graduate with an acoustic guitar performs some Billy Joel hits with a poetic twist. After finishing my caramel mocha frappaccino I go to the performer and say, "Mr. Yale Grad, I can tell by your rendition of some of my favorite music you have your finger on the pulse of the nation and understand its soul."

They are all lies. They borrow our ideas about what we think is leadership, but is our own self image, and sell it back to us in exchange for our vote. These people are not like you or me. They are powerful beyond our full comprehension and do not share the same interests and needs. They do not share the kinds of concerns that the crew of Serenity had. They aren't desperate for work, pursued by an oppressive authority, or running from the law. They don't have to work (as we know work), they are the oppressive authority, and they write the laws. Their only worry is that we will really figure them out. Do not give them your faith based on the image they allow you to see.

Wake up.

I'm done.


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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 2:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Dittoheads vote for who they think a person is. Others vote for what they want a person to do.

If I may bring in a point from the "Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza" thread... It doesn't seem to matter that the IDF kills far more civilians "by accident" than Palestinians kill "on purpose". Because dittoheads "know" that Israel is a "good guy" no matter WHAT Israel does. Dittoheads think (I use the term loosely) with their hormones.

ETA: That's what the blue pill is for.


---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 2:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I wasn't gonna post cause, yanno... as fulla shit as Shrub is, he ain't got nothin left to say worth a listen, much less a watch - much as I hate the idiot box to begin with, no way imma subject myself to it for a teleprompted speech written by someone else that the high chimperator can't pronounce, much less even understand as he mouths the words...

But I just HAVE to say...

GoramMan, you just earned yourself drink of choice, should we ever cross paths for real.

That was well said.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 3:35 PM

GORAMMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

But I just HAVE to say...

GoramMan, you just earned yourself drink of choice, should we ever cross paths for real.

That was well said.




Thanks Frem. I can use one. I like hard liquor and sissy drinks, nothing in between.

But I actually feel like I should apologize for the flamable nature of that post. But the message still stands.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 3:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Goramman, thanks for taking the time to post what I would have LIKED to have said.

You got a drink waiting for you if you ever get to LA. (You too Frem!)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:15 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by GoramMan:
I promissed myself that I would stay out of these types of threads and just concentrate on the workings of the 'Verse. But today I have failed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Truth is if you can't see yourself eating a slab of ribs with them (or a nice brisket for the Texans) then we really should not be putting them in office.



Oh my good lord in heaven help us. A lot of people think like this. There is a term for it and it is "Identity Politics." The belief that someone personally acceptable to you would be perfectly qualified and deserving of a position in public service is very pervasive. It's reasoning like this that give pollsters so much clout in our media. Because they know huge chunks of all demographics they have identified will not stray too far from their own idealized IMAGE of what a leader is and that image is reflective of SELF IMAGE.

The Maverick Congressman. The Cowboy President. The Fighter for Common Folk. These are the messages they send us and they work whether they are true or not. Of course it doesn't stop with elections. Yesterday I saw a book at a store titled God is a Salesman. Really Mr. Stevens? My father is a damn good salesman. Does that make him more Godly?

I've never understood this thinking because I've never had any epiphanies that must occur as follows:

- I'm at the stern wheel festival by the river sampling some of the vendors BBQ. Lo and behold a politician shows up and I observe him eating. I then walk up to him and say, "Mr. Politician, I can tell by the way you eat ribs with your fingers and don't wipe your mouth off with a napkin between every bite that you would be the perfect person to set monetary policy for our nation."

- I'm at the local dive bar and three sheets to the wind. A Jock is talking about nailing an Asian chick. I'm so impressed by his success that I say, "Jock, I can tell by the way you bagged that babe you have a thorough understanding of Sino-Amercan history and commerce and would do much to create a balance of trade with third world dictatorships that benefit from slave labor driven export buisness."

- I'm at my favorite coffee shop and it's open mic night. A Yale graduate with an acoustic guitar performs some Billy Joel hits with a poetic twist. After finishing my caramel mocha frappaccino I go to the performer and say, "Mr. Yale Grad, I can tell by your rendition of some of my favorite music you have your finger on the pulse of the nation and understand its soul."

They are all lies. They borrow our ideas about what we think is leadership, but is our own self image, and sell it back to us in exchange for our vote. These people are not like you or me. They are powerful beyond our full comprehension and do not share the same interests and needs. They do not share the kinds of concerns that the crew of Serenity had. They aren't desperate for work, pursued by an oppressive authority, or running from the law. They don't have to work (as we know work), they are the oppressive authority, and they write the laws. Their only worry is that we will really figure them out. Do not give them your faith based on the image they allow you to see.

Wake up.

I'm done.




What a bunch of condescending BS. I'm sure that super geniuses like yourself, who are experts in foreign affairs, economics, public relations and all the other numerous areas of expertise necessary to make a perfect presidential candidate, have no need to be able to communicate with the common folk. The rest of us use what little knowledge we have of the issues and all things being equal we pick the candidate that can communicate ideas to us in terms we can understand. I realise we must seem like primitives to someone of your superior intellect, but we have found that in the real world the Jock that nailed the Asian chick probably does know more than most politicians about things that matter to this country. The politician only knows what his/her experts have told them is the proper position of the week to get elected. It's nearly impossible to sort through the crap that comes out of a politician's mouth and determine what they actually stand for. Whether or not a politician likes barbecue and beer, or caviar and Dom Perignon actually does tell something about the candidates ability to relate to the problems of those of us less enlightened than yourself. Seems to me like your the one giving credence to the stereotype "Images" perpetuated by pollsters and the media about the reasons for the way Americans vote. You should open your narrow mind and use all the information available to you to make a candidate decision, not just that information that fits in your narrow parameters of info proper for consideration.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:27 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"It's nearly impossible to sort through the crap that comes out of a politician's mouth and determine what they actually stand for."

No, it's pretty easy. You look at their record from any previous office they've held. But that, uhh, takes work, hard work.

***************************************************************
NAH - it's much easier to vote based on commercials.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:55 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"It's nearly impossible to sort through the crap that comes out of a politician's mouth and determine what they actually stand for."

No, it's pretty easy. You look at their record from any previous office they've held. But that, uhh, takes work.

***************************************************************
NAH - it's so much easier to vote based on commercials.



Researching their record doesn't tell you as much as you might think. Many of their positions on issues in the past might have been just a result of an "earmark" or some pork project they got in exchange for their vote. Other times they vote a certain way to tow the party line. Some of the candidates like Clinton, Romney and Obama don't have enough history in government to determine their true positions. It would be nice if it was that easy.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:43 PM

GORAMMAN


Here we go.

Quote:

Kirkules:
I'm sure that super geniuses like yourself, who are experts in foreign affairs, economics, public relations and all the other numerous areas of expertise necessary to make a perfect presidential candidate, have no need to be able to communicate with the common folk. The rest of us use what little knowledge we have of the issues and all things being equal we pick the candidate that can communicate ideas to us in terms we can understand.



No geniuses here. I'm just a guy going to college on MGIB and wage slaving (but no debt) in one of the poorest states in the US. I'm about as common as you get. The only difference is that I've been 3/4 around the world, I've paid a little attention to things most others do not, and I crack a book open every once in a while with the intent of increasing knowledge.

Quote:

Kirkules:
...the Jock that nailed the Asian chick probably does know more than most politicians about things that matter to this country.



The Jock and the Grad are also politicians. Sorry I wasn't clear on that in the original post. This brings me to another point. Many people in the US don't label politicians they like as politicians. That also irks me. They think politics = bad. I do not. Politics is the process by which groups make decisions and accomplish goals. It's the intentions behind the politics that matter. In the 2000 campaign Bush frequently railed against the insiders in DC and politicians. Then the son of a US president, grandson of a US congressman, asked everybody to vote for him. The people that don't see the complete contradiction here do not live in the real world.

Quote:

Kirkules:
It's nearly impossible to sort through the crap that comes out of a politician's mouth and determine what they actually stand for.



It is very possible. The best tool you have for this is at your finger tips right now. You see a campaign ad you don't like... Boom! Look up who made it. Get a list of their directors, operators, and contributors. Crossreference those names with a news article search. Articles about them are fine but what you really want is things they've written. Get a feel for the people behind the effort. See if they've been indicted or censured by the FEC, SEC, FBI (the whole alphabet soup) and any licensors they have. Also get a feel for the size of their wallet by looking at their political contributions and the tax forms for any non profit organizations they associate with. The money invested is a measurement of their commitment. All the info I just described is public knowledge and for a damn good reason.

Quote:

Kirkules:
Whether or not a politician likes barbecue and beer, or caviar and Dom Perignon actually does tell something about the candidates ability to relate to the problems of those of us less enlightened than yourself.



It tells you nothing. You infer all of the extra meaning yourself. They just know what you'll think. Simply toss'n back a cold one doesn't mean that person knows what the cost of milk is or how long it will last two growing children.

Quote:

Kirkules:
Seems to me like your the one giving credence to the stereotype "Images" perpetuated by pollsters and the media about the reasons for the way Americans vote. You should open your narrow mind and use all the information available to you to make a candidate decision, not just that information that fits in your narrow parameters of info proper for consideration.



Seems to me you're misunderstanding my purpose for posting here. I hate pollsters. Elected public servants are the products of the process that selects them and no other group has more influence than pollsters within the process. Politicians seeking office only need 51% of the vote for guaranteed victory. Having less is very risky but still doable. They guarantee victory by dividing us up into manageable groups and pit us against each other. Identity is the easiest divider to evoke because it is judged and understood instantly.

I'm pretty comfortable and non-defensive about the information I base my decisions on.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I had heard, meaning I did not witness this myself, that Hillary would glance over at Obama to see what his reaction to certain parts of the speech were, and then follow up in kind fashion.

Wonder if anyone else caught that or not.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 4:32 AM

SERGEANTX


Goramman should post more. That is all.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 5:00 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by GoramMan:
No geniuses here. I'm just a guy going to college on MGIB and wage slaving (but no debt) in one of the poorest states in the US. I'm about as common as you get. The only difference is that I've been 3/4 around the world, I've paid a little attention to things most others do not, and I crack a book open every once in a while with the intent of increasing knowledge.


So you are a common man who has nothing in common with others around you, got it.
Quote:

Originally posted by GoramMan:
You see a campaign ad you don't like... Boom! Look up who made it. Get a list of their directors, operators, and contributors. Crossreference those names with a news article search. Articles about them are fine but what you really want is things they've written. Get a feel for the people behind the effort. See if they've been indicted or censured by the FEC, SEC, FBI (the whole alphabet soup) and any licensors they have. Also get a feel for the size of their wallet by looking at their political contributions and the tax forms for any non profit organizations they associate with. The money invested is a measurement of their commitment. All the info I just described is public knowledge and for a damn good reason.


How is judging a politician based on their tv ads or charitable contributions any different than their eating habits? Isn't this all 'identity politics' like you mentioned earlier?
Quote:

Originally posted by GoramMan:
You infer all of the extra meaning yourself. They just know what you'll think. Simply toss'n back a cold one doesn't mean that person knows what the cost of milk is or how long it will last two growing children.


Politicians don't drink milk? Politicians don't have children?
Quote:

Originally posted by GoramMan:
I'm pretty comfortable and non-defensive about the information I base my decisions on.


As are others in their decision making I'm sure.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 5:15 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by GoramMan:
- I'm at the stern wheel festival by the river sampling some of the vendors BBQ. Lo and behold a politician shows up and I observe him eating. I then walk up to him and say, "Mr. Politician, I can tell by the way you eat ribs with your fingers and don't wipe your mouth off with a napkin between every bite that you would be the perfect person to set monetary policy for our nation."


I think you misunderstand the point. How a person eats there ribs has little to do with monetary policy and even less to do with ribs.

For me, and I think the majority of Americans the whole 'sitting down to dinner' concept is a subjective measure of character.

The thought process is like this...here is someone I could have dinner with, he is a genuine person, one I can trust to do what he says he's gonna do (good or bad). He's a neighbor, co-worker, church member, friend, father, cook, he eats ribs and likes Chuck Norris...so if he says he's gonna raise taxes (like Obamma) then he's gonna try to do it and he thinks its right OR if he says he's gonna cut taxes (like Republicans) then he's gonna do it cause he thinks its right.

Now I may not agree with them...but I can believe what they are saying...for the most part, and I can rely on them to back up what they say if they can (while noting for the record that Bill Clinton is a special case...someone you can eat ribs with, listen to, and be damned sure he's not telling you the whole truth...although in a way that's reliable too).

Its a variation on the 'firm handshake'.

H

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 5:29 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
even less to do with ribs.


UNLESS...its Hero's World Famous Firefly Rub and Tug Ribs with Happy Ending...


Invite hot girlfriend over.
Take one rack of baby back ribs.
Preheat oven to 365.

Place ribs in baking dish.
Drizzle on extra VIRGIN olive oil and pinch of salt.
Gently massage the oil into the ribs until they are all slippery.
Sprinkle Firefly brand rib rub and rub into the meat until well covered.
Open bottle of Bud Light. Pour 1/4 into bottom of dish. Drink rest of beer. Drink Another Beer.
Cover with foil tent. (Are you making ribs or are you happy to see me?)Drink another beer.
Bake for 35-40 minutes. (Or one episode of Firefly on DVD)Drink another beer.
Remove from oven. Turn oven off.
Light grill, medium-high.
Slather on Firefly brand BBQ Sauce.
Place ribs on grill.
Grill till sauce starts to get all sticky sweet.
Serve with side order of cole slaw and beer.
Make sweet BBQ love to hot girlfriend who is impressed with your cooking skills.

H

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:23 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Some of the candidates like Clinton, Romney and Obama don't have enough history in government to determine their true positions."


So, you'd rather vote for someone based on a 30 second commercial and whether you'd like a beer with that image, rather than a 2 year voting record - like Obama's.

Not saying you're an idiot, but ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

subjective measure of character
The problem in a nut shell.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:24 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


HEAR HEAR !
Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Goramman should post more. That is all.

SergeantX



***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Goram, believe me, if you think THAT's post-flambe, you ain't read many of mine!

My rule is that I don't care what someone believes, what someone says, I care what they DO.

And for that, there is the voting record - what their expressed reasons may be is immaterial, anyone can lie, even to themselves, but it is what they commit to when the rubber meets the road that defines them as a person to me.

That being said, there's only ONE candidate I am willing to vote for, who votes in accordance with the US Constitution 98.5% of the time, who puts his pen where his mouth is when the vote comes due.

I don't listen to what they SAY, I watch how they VOTE - cause in the end, that tells you everything.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:59 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by GoramMan:

No geniuses here. I'm just a guy going to college on MGIB and wage slaving (but no debt) in one of the poorest states in the US. I'm about as common as you get. The only difference is that I've been 3/4 around the world, I've paid a little attention to things most others do not, and I crack a book open every once in a while with the intent of increasing knowledge.


Careful, G. Paying attention and crackin' books will get you branded as an Elitist by some in these parts...

Seriously, nice to have you visitin'- hope you stay for a while to help straighten out these dumb bipeds, errr, I mean wayward fellow Browncoats...

Howdyisall

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:36 AM

GORAMMAN


Quote:

BIGDAMNNOBODY:
How is judging a politician based on their tv ads or charitable contributions any different than their eating habits? Isn't this all 'identity politics' like you mentioned earlier?



I'm looking at the money and intent behind the ad. Politicians are primarily bought with advertising dollars and support from think tanks. People that contribute these things expect a return on their investment. The politicians will deliver because these are the people that show up to $2,000 plate dinners. It is their base of "Haves and Have Mores," as Bush said.

And, for the sake of fairness, Dems do it too. Clinton has received massive amounts of contributions from the health care industry (we all know what that's about) and Obama has received a lot of support from investment bankers (that one is a little too soon to call).

The think tanks, however, are more explicit in what they advocate and they play a key role in the coordination and execution of policy.

Quote:

BIGDAMNNOBODY:
Politicians don't drink milk? Politicians don't have children?



Their immigrant servants and aides take care of that for them.

Quote:

Hero:
I think you misunderstand the point. How a person eats there ribs has little to do with monetary policy and even less to do with ribs.

For me, and I think the majority of Americans the whole 'sitting down to dinner' concept is a subjective measure of character.

The thought process is like this...here is someone I could have dinner with, he is a genuine person, one I can trust to do what he says he's gonna do (good or bad). He's a neighbor, co-worker, church member, friend, father, cook, he eats ribs and likes Chuck Norris...so if he says he's gonna raise taxes (like Obamma) then he's gonna try to do it and he thinks its right OR if he says he's gonna cut taxes (like Republicans) then he's gonna do it cause he thinks its right.




I understand everything your saying but I'm telling you it is so easy to fake these impressions. I eat ribs (hell, I'll breathe some brisket like a fish drinks water) and who doesn't like Chuck Norris? But if I was running for office and only allowed you to see those kinds of things I would have your vote. As soon as I entered office I could take that vote, buy a nationalized healthcare plan with it, and then thank you for your support while you look on in dismay (I'm assuming you wouldn't like an industialized nation's public healthcare plan). I could also use that ability to sell you on ideas that are against your own interests. I could do that because I see and understand how its done.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I don't listen to what they SAY, I watch how they VOTE - cause in the end, that tells you everything.
Frem, how can two people agree on so much and still be at cross-purposes?

Anyhoo... I apply that approach (or try to, anyway) to everyhting. Just pretend I have earphones on that don't let ANY sound thru, and watch. That's how I try to judge politicians, that's how I judge our nation, and others. "cause everything else is just a rationalization.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:51 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


BTW - as a side note - campaign promises and voting are like sex. Once you've done the deed there's no point to making good on your sweet talk.

Which is why I would prefer a parliamentary system. Nothing like having a leash on your politicians afterwards.

***************************************************************
Not talking kinky sex here, though.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:56 AM

CHRISISALL


The next election is moot.

Behold his wisdom:


"ENOUGH!!!"

(I think he's referring to the partisan rhetoric...)


Kneeling Chrisisall



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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I don't think we're operating at cross purposes at all, just have different ideas on how to get there, and really at the root of it they ain't THAT different.

One thing I have noticed about badly traumatised or diminished capacity folk is that their assessment of other people and their intent is almost entirely non-verbal, something which Doc Perry noted and has applied effectively in both research and treatment angles.

If you've ever a mind to wonder what it's like to see the entire world that way, raid your libary or bookstore for "Shella" by Andrew Vachss.

The book is written from an internal viewpoint of someone who's internal emotive capacity has been damaged and diminished to almost nothing, and delves deeply into how they view the world and other people - to the point where the story itself became an almost secondary thing.

Well worth the read if you ever wanted to understand those folk - remember, I deal with such every day both as a cab driver and otherwise, so this understanding was pretty critical.

I warn you though, it's pretty cringeworthy, the main character isn't exactly what you'd call a decent fellow.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:17 AM

GORAMMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Goram, believe me, if you think THAT's post-flambe, you ain't read many of mine!

My rule is that I don't care what someone believes, what someone says, I care what they DO.

...


I don't listen to what they SAY, I watch how they VOTE - cause in the end, that tells you everything.

-Frem




Following their voting is good but it is more difficult for many of the reasons Kirkules stated. On some major votes I'll hold it against a politician if I don't agree with him but most of the time it's not something I keep up with. I've got shit to do. There are a couple blogs I trust when it comes to that but I don't have the time to sort out everything for myself in those damn omnibus bills. Have you ever tried to read the Patriot Act in its orginal form? "Strike this section and replace with--" on and on for pages and pages. I would say the majority of the people that read those things are the lobbyists and lawyers that wright them in their think tank offices.

But if you can keep up with all of that I salute you. I am curious as to where your getting your Constitution conformity figure of 98.5%. I love the Constitution (spent 6 years supporting and defending it). I keep a pocket copy of the Constitution with me when I'm at college.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:35 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


http://www.vote-smart.org/index.htm
here you can get voting records like this
Nancy Pelosi
abortion issues
12/06/2006 Abortion Pain Bill N
05/25/2005 Overseas Military Facilities Abortion Amendment Y
04/27/2005 Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act N
10/02/2003 Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill N
06/04/2003 Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill N
07/20/2000 Abortion Funding Amendment Y
07/13/2000 Family Planning Assistance Funding amendment Y
06/22/2000 Prison Abortion Funding Amendment Y
05/18/2000 Oversea Military Abortions Amendment Y
04/05/2000 Partial Birth Abortion Act N
07/29/1999 Abortion Funding Amendment Y
06/30/1999 Child Custody Protection Act N
06/09/1999 Overseas Military Abortion Amendment Y
06/08/1999 Prohibition of Chemically Induced Abortion Amendment N
10/08/1998 Contraceptive Amendment N
08/06/1998 Abortion Funding Amendment Y
07/23/1998 Partial-Birth Abortion bill N
07/15/1998 Child Custody Protection Act N
06/24/1998 Chemical Inducement of Abortion Amendment N
05/20/1998 Abortion Private Funding Restoration Amendment Y
10/08/1997 Partial-Birth Abortion bill N
09/04/1997 International Family Planning amendment N
03/20/1997 Partial-Birth Abortion bill N
02/13/1997 Population Planning bill N
09/19/1996 Partial-Birth Abortion Ban N
07/22/1996 Non-Federally Funded Abortions Amendment Y
03/07/1996 Medicaid Funded Abortions Amendment Y
11/01/1995 Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 1995 N
09/07/1995 Overseas Military Abortions N
06/15/1995 Overseas Military Abortion Amendment Y
05/24/1995 Foreign Abortion Ban Amendment N
agricultural issues ...
.
.
.
women's issues ...




http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/
here you can do searches like this
House
» Members: All | By state
» Voting: Missers | By class | Perfect records
» Voting with party | By class
» Financial disclosure reports
» Late-night votes
» Vote margins: Narrow | Wide
» Key votes
» Bills | Most-voted-on
» More...


Yes, it takes a little time actually reading them. But what is more worth it than doing this to select the president of the US, or your representative or senator ?

I also think you can glean a lot from observing if someone is a 'party-line' voter (then you better know the party line), or a go-along to get-along voter (then you need to learn the rules of their game).


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:00 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by GoramMan:
Here we go.

Quote:

Kirkules:
I'm sure that super geniuses like yourself, who are experts in foreign affairs, economics, public relations and all the other numerous areas of expertise necessary to make a perfect presidential candidate, have no need to be able to communicate with the common folk. The rest of us use what little knowledge we have of the issues and all things being equal we pick the candidate that can communicate ideas to us in terms we can understand.



No geniuses here. I'm just a guy going to college on MGIB and wage slaving (but no debt) in one of the poorest states in the US. I'm about as common as you get. The only difference is that I've been 3/4 around the world, I've paid a little attention to things most others do not, and I crack a book open every once in a while with the intent of increasing knowledge.

Quote:

Kirkules:
...the Jock that nailed the Asian chick probably does know more than most politicians about things that matter to this country.



The Jock and the Grad are also politicians. Sorry I wasn't clear on that in the original post. This brings me to another point. Many people in the US don't label politicians they like as politicians. That also irks me. They think politics = bad. I do not. Politics is the process by which groups make decisions and accomplish goals. It's the intentions behind the politics that matter. In the 2000 campaign Bush frequently railed against the insiders in DC and politicians. Then the son of a US president, grandson of a US congressman, asked everybody to vote for him. The people that don't see the complete contradiction here do not live in the real world.

Quote:

Kirkules:
It's nearly impossible to sort through the crap that comes out of a politician's mouth and determine what they actually stand for.



It is very possible. The best tool you have for this is at your finger tips right now. You see a campaign ad you don't like... Boom! Look up who made it. Get a list of their directors, operators, and contributors. Crossreference those names with a news article search. Articles about them are fine but what you really want is things they've written. Get a feel for the people behind the effort. See if they've been indicted or censured by the FEC, SEC, FBI (the whole alphabet soup) and any licensors they have. Also get a feel for the size of their wallet by looking at their political contributions and the tax forms for any non profit organizations they associate with. The money invested is a measurement of their commitment. All the info I just described is public knowledge and for a damn good reason.

Quote:

Kirkules:
Whether or not a politician likes barbecue and beer, or caviar and Dom Perignon actually does tell something about the candidates ability to relate to the problems of those of us less enlightened than yourself.



It tells you nothing. You infer all of the extra meaning yourself. They just know what you'll think. Simply toss'n back a cold one doesn't mean that person knows what the cost of milk is or how long it will last two growing children.

Quote:

Kirkules:
Seems to me like your the one giving credence to the stereotype "Images" perpetuated by pollsters and the media about the reasons for the way Americans vote. You should open your narrow mind and use all the information available to you to make a candidate decision, not just that information that fits in your narrow parameters of info proper for consideration.



Seems to me you're misunderstanding my purpose for posting here. I hate pollsters. Elected public servants are the products of the process that selects them and no other group has more influence than pollsters within the process. Politicians seeking office only need 51% of the vote for guaranteed victory. Having less is very risky but still doable. They guarantee victory by dividing us up into manageable groups and pit us against each other. Identity is the easiest divider to evoke because it is judged and understood instantly.

I'm pretty comfortable and non-defensive about the information I base my decisions on.



Thanks for your reply GoramMan. The tone of my original response could have been more civil seeing as you are new to RWED. It just pissed me off that you would suggest that Hero or anyone else here would vote for someone solely on their taste for barbecue. Sounds to me like we agree more than not on this subject. After reading your response I think I understand more were you were coming from.

I actually don't have to do a lot of research to find my candidate because I have a few "litmus tests" that I use to cull the field before I even bother doing any more in-depth study. First would be the 2nd Amendment,(Clinton, Obama eliminated) next extreme religious beliefs (Huckaby and possibly Romney eliminated). The field gets narrow pretty fast.

I would have never guessed you were a college student. The mature tone of your posts made me think you were a grumpy old man like me. I hope you will continue to post in RWED as I always enjoy reading posts from intelligent folks like yourself, even when I disagree with them.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:07 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Some of the candidates like Clinton, Romney and Obama don't have enough history in government to determine their true positions."


So, you'd rather vote for someone based on a 30 second commercial and whether you'd like a beer with that image, rather than a 2 year voting record - like Obama's.

Not saying you're an idiot, but ...




Thanks for the helpful tips Rue, but I don't watch campaign commercials. I have to use commercial breaks to get up and get another beer. Do you know how I could find out the beer brand preference of the candidates. Someone who drinks the same brand of beer as me would probably make a great President.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

their taste for barbecue
Wow. It's amazing how you took a large, interesting idea like "identity politics" and squeezed it into a tiny little sound byte.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:46 PM

GORAMMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:

Thanks for your reply GoramMan. The tone of my original response could have be more civil seeing as you are new to RWED. It just pissed me off that you would suggest that Hero or anyone else here would vote for someone solely on their taste for barbecue. Sounds to me like we agree more than not on this subject. After reading your response I think I understand more were you were coming from.

I actually don't have to do a lot of research to find my candidate because I have a few "litmus tests" that I use to cull the field before I even bother doing any more in-depth study. First would be the 2nd Amendment,(Clinton, Obama eliminated) next extreme religious beliefs (Huckaby and possibly Romney eliminated). The field gets narrow pretty fast.

I would have never guessed you were a college student. The mature tone of your posts made me think you were a grumpy old man like me. I hope you will continue to post in RWED as I always enjoy read posts from intelligent folks like yourself, even when I disagree with them.



Again I apologize for that initial post. It could have definitely ended better. But people do invest their faith in politicians based on those images they project. Karl Rove, Frank Luntz, that Rag'n Cajun guy, and Begala bank on it.

And so that you know absolutely where I am coming from I am aligned with the left, just not the Democrats. I'd like to drink the Kool-Aid but no party makes my flavor.

As for the 2nd Amendment, I'm betting it will be another 5-10 years before we see another major effort on that. I believe in the right to arms but I'm not in the Ted Nugent crowd. There is a point where the caliber and muzzle velocity is too much and for me that occurs before .50 cal rifles. If some major incident (police slaying, sniper attack on public, accidental death of child) occurs with those things you'll see some bills roll in. The NRA won't be able to convince the public that they are viable hunting and self defense tools.

Religion in a candidate is fine by me just as long as two conditions are met: 1) They do not try to write their own religious views into our law and history in order to impose them on the populace. 2)They actually have FAITH and don't try to twist history and science around to support their religious views.

Well, this is becoming an entirely different post and I'm hungry.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 5:17 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by GoramMan:

But people do invest their faith in politicians based on those images they project. Karl Rove, Frank Luntz, that Rag'n Cajun guy, and Begala bank on it.



I'm sure there are cases where stupid people buy the "images they project", but more often it just gets the candidate publicly ridiculed if the image they try to project doesn't fit with reality. A time that comes to mind is when Michael Dukakis put on the over-sized helmet and rode around in a tank. It was hilarious. Another was when John Kerry stopped by the local dinner to flip pancakes for the patrons. Nobody bought their crap for even a second. Images work for candidates when there's an element of truth in them. Like George Bush clearing brush at his ranch. It's a good image but it also is something he likes doing in real life. I realise that Carville and Rove have perfected these methods but the effect is only at the fringes.

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