REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Housing Market

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Saturday, March 1, 2008 15:16
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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 4:37 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Am I the only one who is cheering the housing bubble/market meltdown?

2 years ago, 2 bedroom condos were selling in my area (outside of D.C.) for 250 thousand or higher. I found this personally offensive.

-Especially since 4 years before that, the same condos were selling for 85 thousand.

I know that this will bring havoc to the economy. I know that a lot of idiots out there are facing foreclosure. But I cant help but laugh and do a little dance at the idea of FINALLY having affordable housing prices again.

Does this make me a bad person?



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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 5:32 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I found this personally offensive.


Did you ask for an apology?

I've heard DC condos are pretty easy to get along with. Not like four bedroom colonials or some split-level ranches I've known.

On the upside, my adjustable rate mortgage is frozen for another year or so...so I'm thinking of taking advantage of the rates by moving or refinancing and staying put.

H

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:10 AM

PIRATECAT


I agree, I was in a deli up in Reno in November some boob was yacken about getten out of his house payments. These jerks bought homes they couldn't afford. Certain areas of the country our just overpriced. Move to an area you can afford. The tax payer should not cover idiots. I know the western states and the northeast our way to high. To me their dumpy cities.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:27 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Move to an area you can afford."

Job or home ? Home or job ? Which is more important ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:29 AM

FIVVER


About this time last year it looked like we would be moving out to Phoenix. Looking at houses over the web it seemed like 90% of them (especially the newly constructed ones) were empty of furniture. I asked a realtor about this and their response was that most of them had never been lived in - they had been bought by folks speculating in the market. These people were buying 4 or 5 houses and knowingly signed the neutron mortgages (kind of like a neutron bomb - gets rid of the people but leaves the property intact) with the idea they could hold the property for a year or so and sell it for a profit before their payments turned nasty. They gambled, they lost. Sorry.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:39 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Selling your home now is tough, so just wait, if you can. Prices go up and down, mostly related to supply and demand.

Folks that have always had to rent are the real losers in this economy....their landlords just keep raising their rents in line with all the other cost increases in general...Soon people will not be able to afford to rent anymore...they will have to buy...they will have to come up with 10-20% down payment, and they will have to have good credit...aka, the way it always has worked...except for the sub-prime ( should have been called sub-qualified) mortgage mess of the last few years.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:56 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Well, I guess it has to do with WHY you own the property...

See, me and the Fremgirl saw the 401K implosion coming, and rolled those resources into a house, cause apartment living sucks - all great plans have a flaw, and the large house we planned to fill with kids, is fulla cats instead, since barring medical miracles, the kids ain't happenin, but still...

Thing is, we LIVE here - every time the value goes down, so do the outrageous property taxes, and we love our home, it's HOME, curse it, so you couldn't buy it from us for even four times it's value, something the locals find comforting because it means no developer is going to co-opt this street for as long as we live.

Folks who bought a home, a real HOME, to love and live in, really don't give a shit save for a vague uneasiness about equity, it's only folks buying houses as a resale venture that are pissin and moanin, but that's their own problem, when you swim with the shark called Usury, expect to get bit.

I'm only really pissed when they go to the Gov and demand that the Gov steal MORE money from their intended victims to cover the losses caused by those would-be-victims wising up to the scam.

THAT pisses me off, it does.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:05 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Well, I guess it has to do with WHY you own the property...

See, me and the Fremgirl saw the 401K implosion coming, and rolled those resources into a house, cause apartment living sucks - all great plans have a flaw, and the large house we planned to fill with kids, is fulla cats instead, since barring medical miracles, the kids ain't happenin, but still...

Thing is, we LIVE here - every time the value goes down, so do the outrageous property taxes, and we love our home, it's HOME, curse it, so you couldn't buy it from us for even four times it's value, something the locals find comforting because it means no developer is going to co-opt this street for as long as we live.

Folks who bought a home, a real HOME, to love and live in, really don't give a shit save for a vague uneasiness about equity, it's only folks buying houses as a resale venture that are pissin and moanin, but that's their own problem, when you swim with the shark called Usury, expect to get bit.

I'm only really pissed when they go to the Gov and demand that the Gov steal MORE money from their intended victims to cover the losses caused by those would-be-victims wising up to the scam.

THAT pisses me off, it does.


I agree with all that. I have no sympathy for people who tried to buy and sell real estate like stock market day traders. I bought my house in 2000 for 165K. I saw it go up in market value at a ridiculous rate...up to something like 450K. I never really understood why the hell it was going up so much...I always assumed that it was supply & demand, not realizing it was pure speculation by fast-buck artists.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ditto both Jongsstraw and Frem.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Bought my home in 2001..it's doubled in value since, now it's goin' down some...but it makes no nevermind to me; I just live here.



Staying put for now Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:35 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



Here in America,we've all been sold on the idea that if you work hard and you play by the rules, one day you'll have a little piece of the American dream, your own house.

and looking back just a couple years to the artificially low interest rates and companies just approving everybody for their chance at a new home,

I'm not sure why its so in vogue to call everybody who bought the lie an idiot, and I'm certainly not sold on the idea that the only people getting burned here are those that were playing a dirty game.

I think more of them are like my manager, a man who looks like he's had a hard life, worked his way up in the kitchen at a diner, was finally given a position as a manager and took that job seriously, because it was beyond the opportunities that seemed to present themselves...

then one day, hype being what it was, hope and optomism being what it was, he let himself get duped into buying a home that he couldn't really afford.

He's upside down now, because of course the prices are falling, and his interest rates went up and he nearly lost his home, save a loan he got from his sister, and frankly, he probably still will lose it.

Now some people might have an ideal vision of the world as doggy dog, darwinian survival of the fittest...

"if you're dumb enough to fall for it, at least your money has gone to somebody more worthy of it..."

attitude, but I'm not one of them. Even if you're a callous bastard with no compassion, that model just doesn't make any sense. Our poor and desperate don't just die and leave room for our more "capable." They are still there, and the result of a failed state like that is that we feel the impact of that poverty even if we aren't directly suffereing from it.

We're all part of the same organism. We aren't long for this world if we forget that.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:10 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

Here in America,we've all been sold on the idea that if you work hard and you play by the rules, one day you'll have a little piece of the American dream, your own house.

and looking back just a couple years to the artificially low interest rates and companies just approving everybody for their chance at a new home,

I'm not sure why its so in vogue to call everybody who bought the lie an idiot, and I'm certainly not sold on the idea that the only people getting burned here are those that were playing a dirty game.

I think more of them are like my manager, a man who looks like he's had a hard life, worked his way up in the kitchen at a diner, was finally given a position as a manager and took that job seriously, because it was beyond the opportunities that seemed to present themselves...

then one day, hype being what it was, hope and optomism being what it was, he let himself get duped into buying a home that he couldn't really afford.

He's upside down now, because of course the prices are falling, and his interest rates went up and he nearly lost his home, save a loan he got from his sister, and frankly, he probably still will lose it.

Now some people might have an ideal vision of the world as doggy dog, darwinian survival of the fittest...

"if you're dumb enough to fall for it, at least your money has gone to somebody more worthy of it..."

attitude, but I'm not one of them. Even if you're a callous bastard with no compassion, that model just doesn't make any sense. Our poor and desperate don't just die and leave room for our more "capable." They are still there, and the result of a failed state like that is that we feel the impact of that poverty even if we aren't directly suffereing from it.

We're all part of the same organism. We aren't long for this world if we forget that.




I agree a little with the sentiment but not with the idea.

I work my butt off and try and live within my means. I have never owned a house (as the prices were far out of my range). More so when the bubble grew.

But Jose down the street, who works at McDonalds, got an ARM loan and bought a mansion. He then got a home equity line of credit and buys a Hummer. With huge Rims.

Meanwhile, Im just plugging along trying to make ends meet.

Now, because he was a dumbass, and maybe didnt speak English so well, Jose has lost his house, and his Hummer, (but kept the Rims).

Yet Im suppossed to feel guilty for the fools and the greedy in our society? The gambled, and they lost. Its fun to watch them crash and burn.

Now, with prices dropping down to more apropriate levels, I may actually be able to afford a home.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:21 AM

GRIZWALD


It's unbecoming to laugh at the misfortunes of others, but it's very hard not to be slightly amused when someone's greed comes back and bites said someone in the butt.

Been on both sides, in a sense: We bought our first homes in Southern California planning on turning them around and using the money as a stake to move out of California. First house did fine. Second house did not. Same sort of thing as is happening now, only this was in the 1990s. Anyway, we lost our shirts.

Now we no longer think about what we'll do when we sell our house. It is our HOME. We are looking forward to the day when we pay off the mortgage in full. Then it will truly be ours. If we have to move again someday then fine, but I don't think of it as an investment. It is the place that I hope my future grandchildren will come to for Thanksgivings and Christmases and Easters and Independence Days.

___________________________________________________
High Priestess of Pork and Ag-Related Activities of the MYTHICAL LAND OF IOWA

Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:25 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


I think somebody needs to define greed here... and "within your means..."

the whole point of these loans and these companies peddling them was to convince the buyer that they were weithin their means...

so that's more a matter of not understanding the market or the system, and being easy prey than being greedy, in my opinion.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I know a person who was in over her head in debt. (Old student loan, just kept piling up.) SO she got in contact with one of these "We'll take over your debt" compnaies, and was SOOOO happy when they said they'd pay it off for her.

But when I asked Yeah, but what interest rate are they going to charge YOU? You don't think they're going to loan you money for free, do you? and she was totally flabbergasted. She hadn't thought about that.

There are some people who truly don't have a clue. And I'll bet there are a lot of people in that boat: They either didn't undersatnd that their rates would be "adjusted", or that they amount they owed would go up even if the payment stayed the same, or that a big balloon payment was due, or any number of "gotchas" that the subprime lenders would winkle folks with.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:47 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Too true. The banks and the lenders were out to make a quick buck. They never explained what the loans would do in a few years. Its the innocent folks I feel bad about. The ones who blindly trusted that they would be taken care of.

They believed that they could get a home. Something many had hoped for for so long.

Its the greedy bastards who have lost their shirts I laugh at. Its the ones who tried to benefit off of what they saw as a loophole and are now getting humped.

They are the ones who are complaining the most tho, go figure.

Then there are the plain stupid, who bought into the idea that a house never goes down in price. Them folk, I feel no pity for.

I just want the house prices to fall enough that I could feel good about buying one. Then, my family and I, could finally have a place to lay our heads which would be ours and ours alone.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Well, if anyone thinks home lending in general is anything but predatory in every single way, all you need to do is read a mortgage loan contract - believe me, that'll cure you of the notion that these lenders are anything but crooks, especially since there's a direct collusion between them that no contract less ruinous or exploitive shall be offered.

And if you SHOULD find one perhaps slightly less ruinous than others, even IF you should include the provision that it NOT be resold to an exploitive lender (a specific one, in this case) it's meaningless in the face of the money and power to utterly defy the law and not be held to the terms of the contract...

But YOU are, and they can change it, at whim, at any time, for any reason or no reason at all, and you have no recourse without spending money you'll not be able to afford on a legal fight that will cost more than just sucking it up.

And just so you know, one of their favorite games is to change your payment date without notice, or mail the notice AFTER the "new" payment date, in order to force late payments and open up the process of foreclosure.

Next to insurance, the mortgage industry is the slimiest organised crime racket to ever slide itself behind the facade of legitimate business, and their doing so has driven housing prices into the insane realms that it *requires* one to submit to their debt slavery, and practices that wind up costing you more than the entire value of the house five times over - IF you manage to even keep it.

People who got reamed, sure, I got sympathy for them, but those who cooked up this racket, who benefit from it, hell no - especially when they finally feel the bite from trying to squeeze people squeezed so hard already they got nothin left to take... and then dare go whining to the Gov to take MORE from those people ?

Oh hell no, not ever.
http://www.affil.org/consumer_rsc/usury.php
http://www.affil.org/consumer_rsc/mortgage.php

The worst of it is, because they can change the terms at a whim, even a loan that did not start out as being predatory can and WILL become so, as soon as the company in question feels you're hooked deep enough for the claws to really come out.

"Welcome all ye, to the company store, where every time you pay, you owe a little more..."

No... I DON'T feel sorry for the Usurious, Racketeering, Loansharking sumbitches that run that industry, and I hope they get bled dry - but that won't happen, the Gov will just bleed US dry helping their fellow crook "friends" line their pockets, one way or another.

Government can't stop crime, Government IS crime.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Government can't stop crime, Government IS crime."

Ahem - and so are the non-governmental criminals - just to complete the picture.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:29 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Government can't stop crime, Government IS crime.


...and always has been- that's the joke of it. Only now the feudalism has a glossy LED veneer. Sometimes it's fair and sometimes it's not. But it has nothing to do with truth and justice. It's who ya know & who ya owe.

Same ole Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Yeah, but past a certain point of collusion, can we really tell which is which anymore ?

I mean, when Corporations write bills in their own favor, and have them submitted by pet candidates, how far apart *is* that relationship, in reality ?

Worth a thought or two, that is.

-F

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:35 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And whch party had the lobbyists writing the bills in congressional offices ? Why, I do believe it was the repugs.

Just to remind you that there are shades of grey here.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:50 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


But anyway, I've been mostly silent on who is to 'blame' for the problem b/c I've been considering it.

The loan process is extremely arcane. You have to pay $$$ down just to get some paperwork to look at. That makes really shopping around for a loan - an actual document with actual numbers and conditions - very difficult. There's no such thing as 'just asking' - it's like a marriage proposal.

And then you get this thing which only a really dedicated lawyer can understand. People trust the 'experts' to let them know if they really can make the payments and get that house.

And then you have crap like this - Countrywide denied conventional loans to 50% of the African American applicants who DID qualify for them - and got them ridiculous interest-only loans instead. These were people who could have made payments - more up front but lesser later on - who were fraudulently slotted into a situation where they couldn't manage. Now, I'm guessing Countrywide did this b/c they were thinking: you skim $$ off the first set, you resell the home and skim $$$ off the second set, and so on, and really multiply your profit.

Who would'a thunk the market would collapse.

I don't blame the borrowers. They're not finance wizards and gurus - mostly they're just doing the best they know how. The lenders OTOH should be hung out to dry.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Agreed.

But it's the Gov's job, in essence, to act against these collectives, at least in our current social, political, and legal system.

Direct action by members of the public risks damage to neutral property and potential harm to the uninvolved at an unacceptable level, yet without some relief or recourse, people are gonna start seeing that as a nihilistic "final option".

Wasn't that long ago some guy pushed to the wall by a mortgage company barricade himself in his house, boobytrapped it to hell and prettymuch just went apeshit....
http://www.blacklistednews.com/view.asp?ID=4621

I'd really not like to see more of that, you know ?

Ain't about party lines, so much as it's a violation of the social contract when the Gov does not act in the benefit and protection of us citizens but rather in the interest of the exploiters.

Those responsible should be held accountable.

-F

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:36 PM

KIRKULES


Real estate is always a good investment if you buy for the right reason. Buying a home gives you a lifestyle that's hard to replicate with a rental. A friend of mine bought a house in California back during the last housing boom in California in the late 1980's for 80k and it took 10 years or so before it was worth what he payed for it again. Needless to say it is now worth 500-600k and he's had a great home to live in for many years.

If you buy anything other than a primary residence you better pay for it with cash money. It used to be possible to buy a house with 20% down, rent it, and have the renters pay off your mortgage for you. Now you'll be lucky if the rent will cover your property tax, insurance and maintenance costs.

If you decide to move to Florida to buy real estate, let me know. I'll set you up with my favorite person in the world who just happens to be a Realtor.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:06 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Those responsible should be held accountable.

-F



No multi-million dollar golden parachutes...

All pensions and options in company stock revoked...

Personally, I would like to see the firing squad re-comissioned and used with prejudice against those who concocted this mess and orchistrated it every step of the way. This includes not only CEOs at places like Countrywide, but members of the Federal Reserve and our own Government.

The only problem is that the ones who were smart, you're never going to know their names.

There's a reason why people two and three generations behind us didn't trust banks and wanted nothing to do with them... particularly a Central Bank.

The've managed to wait just long enough for the proles to forget to fear the Bank just long enough for them to fleece the wealth of the nation. I've saved up quite a bit of money, but I should probably just spend it on whatever I want at this point, while I can still buy something with it. It's not going to be worth anything in a few years no matter how much interest I get.

Especially once the Democrats get in and tax 70% of my income.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:17 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Here is a good link for anyone who might be in the process of looking for a home....


http://patrick.net/housing/crash.html

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Saturday, March 1, 2008 3:16 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


This housing disaster is becoming an election issue

and stock indexes have been falling more than 2.5 percent

Oil is now over 100 $ per barrel

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