REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, March 30, 2008 15:30
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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 8:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hal_Cone

It all started w/ a guy named James Hal Cone

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
James Hal Cone (August 5, 1938 - ) is an African-American Christian theologian in the Methodist tradition. He is one of America's best known architects of Black theology, a form of Liberation theology. He is currently the Charles Augustus Briggs Distinguished Professor of Systematic Theology at Union Theological Seminary in the City of New York.
Cone was born and raised in Arkansas and received a B.A. degree from Philander Smith College in Arkansas in 1958, a B.D. degree from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary in 1961, and M.A. and Ph.D. degrees from Northwestern University in 1963 and 1965, respectively. He taught theology and religion at Philander Smith College, Adrian College in Michigan, and beginning in 1970 at Union Theological Seminary in New York City, where he was awarded the distinguished Charles A. Briggs Chair in systematic theology in 1977.
James Cone was the first person to create a systematic Black theology. He felt that Black Christians in Northern America should not follow the "white Church", as it had failed to support them in their struggle for equal rights. Though this theme runs throughout Cone's work, his early books (Black Theology and Black Power and A Black Theology of Liberation) draw heavily on mainstream white theologians like Karl Barth (on whom Cone had written his doctoral thesis) and Paul Tillich.
In response to criticism from other black theologians (including his brother, Cecil), Cone began to make greater use of resources native to the African American Christian community for his theological work, including slave spirituals, the blues, and the writings of prominent African American thinkers like David Walker, Henry McNeal Turner, and W. E. B. Du Bois. Critiques by black women also led Cone to make consideration of gender issues more prominent in his later writings, thus paving the way for womanist theology. His theology has also been heavily influenced by Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr.
[edit]Controversy

Some of Cones quotes have drawn controversy. Barak Obama's former minister Jeremiah Wright was inspired by Cone. Although Obama has condemned some of most controversial statements of Wright as needlessly divisive and distorted, Wright's ministry is founded on the black theology that Cone helped to create

"To be Christian is to be one of those whom God has chosen. God has chosen black people."
[Black Theology and Black Power, pp. 139-140].

"While it is true that blacks do hate whites, black hatred is not racism."
[Black Theology and Black Power, p. 15]

"All white men are responsible for white oppression."
[Black Theology and Black Power, p. 24]
"Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 40]
"If there is any contemporary meaning of the Antichrist, the white church seems to be a manifestation of it." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 73]

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 9:12 AM

PIRATECAT


Yeh a black conspiratorist. White women want black men, black women have been raped by white men thats how high yellow babies are made, and blue eyes is the mark of the beast. Irish folk are cromagnoms. Barbeque contests are rigged for white folk to win. Jews all gotz the money. Rome was built by africans. Jesus was a soul baby. Hurricanes with white names always hit black towns caused by Bush. Etc etc.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 10:13 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



What's your point exactly? that blacks have had pretty valid reasons to fear and even hate the white man? That some people who established the religion were distrutful of and maybe even demonized the white man?(like we needed any help).

And that is different than christianity historically, how? How many churches preach hatred even today towards homosexuals and muslims? Are we all guilty by association then?

If you're going to try to attack Reverend Wright base the attacks on something relevant to today. Maybe I've missed some of his "scathing" diatribes, but I haven't heard anytying out of him that I disagree with yet...except the whole thing about there being a God.

In fact, representing a community that has not been so friendly to homosexuals, this man has even championed that minority.

By the way, this view is coming from a straight white male who doesn't hate himself, his race, or his country, though I am disappoiinted in it, and frankly think it should be scolded...you know, the way you do a child that you love.

Oh...you don't like to be scolded? Did he use words that made you feel bad and wet the bed when he said, "god damn america?"

If you can't take serious criticism...if you want to just attack it and comdemn it when you hear it rather than to look at its context and it possible didactic value, then you probably don't have the mental fortitude to involve yourself in the shaping of this country's government.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 10:39 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

but I haven't heard anytying out of him that I disagree with yet...By the way, this view is coming from a straight white male


So you agree that he and all blacks have every right to hate you, there is nothing wrong with that hate, and that you are personally responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened to anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Thats good of you. Me, I don't know the man, so him hating me but not knowing me all because of race just don't seem neighborly. And I never owned a slave or raised my hand against anyone except folks who broke the law...and I never look at the person's demographics until AFTER I read the report and decide how I'm handling the case...age, race, gender, they just don't seem important when compared to what, when, and how for reviewing cases.

I do make great BBQ.

H

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 10:41 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Wright's most well-known rantings :

1) The Government invented AIDS in the 1970's to kill black people
2) The USA is the same as Al Qaida
3) America deserved 911....chickens came home to roost
4) White man is the devil, lower than a skunk
5) and of course...God Damn America. What a nice thing to say in a church...especially a church with a US Senator & his children sitting in it.

The ONLY way out for Obama to keep his candidacy even remotely viable is to just come out and say that Rev Wright is INSANE. Nothing less will work, and even that probably won't prevent his total collapse of support.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 10:53 AM

CANTTAKESKY


What? This is what we've come to? Where a candidate might lose support because he USED to attend a church whose minister found Cone's theology inspirational? Are you serious?

I used to attend a church where they taught women were beneath men, and can't even hold enough authority over boys to teach Sunday school. I went there cause they had really good music. Then I slowly became aware of the creepy sexism and left. Does that mean on this point alone, running for office is ruled out for me?

Candidates should be judged on what they believe today, not for what their former ministers used to think. Good grief.



--------------------------
Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds.
--Henry Adams, The Education of Henry Adams, 1907

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 11:18 AM

KIRKULES


I refuse to feel any guit about slavery. My ancestors came to this county only about a hundred years ago from a country that abolished the slave trade in 1776. Obama's family is much more likely to have been involve with the slave trade than mine. His African born father's family could have been rounding up slaves from other tribes for foreign sale for a hundred years after my ancestors abolished slavery.

It was a huge mistake for Obama to fall into Hillary's trap and bring race into the contest. His popularity among whites was partially due to the image he was projecting as a uniter of races. Now he's just another black dude running for President.

And Yes, Cantakesky you would be disqualified from being President in my book. If you were an adult when you attended the sexist church and continued to go even after their beliefs were known to you. Doesn't mean you aren't a good person, just means you don't have the leadership skills required to be President. A leader is someone that stands up for their beliefs even when they are not popular in the group they are currently in.


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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 11:28 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
A leader is someone that stands up for their beliefs even when they are not popular in the group they are currently in.

I stood up for them when I realized what my beliefs were. Or are potential candidates not allowed to explore values contrary to those practiced by the mainstream, even if they ultimately rejected those values they were exploring?

--------------------------
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything.
--Mark Twain

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 11:59 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


Jong, where'd you get those. I'll look them up....you know, as they appear when quoted.

not saying you're wrong...but if those were his "well known" rantings, how come they focusing on the one I mentioned?

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:01 PM

STORYMARK


Yeah, why judge a man by his own actions and words when you can crucify him for something someone he knows read.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
What? This is what we've come to? Where a candidate might lose support because he USED to attend a church whose minister found Cone's theology inspirational? Are you serious?

Dead serious. And what's all this talk about " use to " ? Obama still attends or is a member of Trinity United Church of Christ. And technically speaking , Rev Wright keeps being described as " retired' . He was set to retire " officially " from the church at the end of the month, March 31st. Since all this fuss exploded, he's shipped himself off to Africa, on "sabbatical " , away from prying reporters.

Quote:

I used to attend a church where they taught women were beneath men, and can't even hold enough authority over boys to teach Sunday school. I went there cause they had really good music. Then I slowly became aware of the creepy sexism and left. Does that mean on this point alone, running for office is ruled out for me?
That's not that far from literal biblical teaching. A bit kooky by today's standards, I'll admit, but it's a far cry from insisting Jesus being 'black', as if his color was the important part of his message. Or saying that God has to be black, or that blacks should reject his love. THAT's far and away more extreme than the sexist tripe of which you speak.

Quote:


Candidates should be judged on what they believe today, not for what their former ministers used to think. Good grief.



I swear, where are you getting this "former minister" line from ? Sounds like a line from some talking points pamphlet. Rev Wright has been Obama's minister for over 20 yrs, a family friend and religious mentor. For all intents and purposes, he's STILL his minister. You try to act as if he's not been around since Barack was a little boy. Nice try , but that's simply not the case.


It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:20 PM

STORYMARK


Obama's got his wacky pastor. McCain's got 2 (and even had to pull a flip-flop to put them there).

And this has what to do with their ability to lead??

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:26 PM

RIGHTEOUS9


Hero, I'm saying you guys are ever diligent in your pursuit of the black racist. I'm saying I'm not unsympathetic to a minority that, feeling they were abused has a certain hatred for those they think of as their abusers. That doesn't mean I take responsibility for everything that has ever happened to them, or that I think whites are any different than blacks...everybody is capable of inflicting pain and marginalizing people...

I'm just saying the reasons are right on the fucking radar, and trying to push down the feelings of the recently oppressed who frankly have not been fully delivered from a lesser place in our society, is not part of the healing process.

Heh, I'm saying I'm not as fucking sensitive as you pantywaists, and when somebody who is not in a position of power over me is preaching that I am the white devil, I don't lock my doors and bar my windows, and pray to holy spirit "please don't let the angry black man get to me".


but I'm also saying the founder of the church does not equate to the current pastor, which seems to be auraptor's effort. Do we really want to look back on the history of catholicism so that we can call catholics inquisitionists? Do we want to call all churches birthed out of puritanism fundamentalist?(maybe some of them sure...but)

If those things that Jong pointed out have been said by the Reverend Wright, and he has not grown beyond them himself to denounce them, then perhaps he hasn't spiritually evolved enough that he should be leading men and women to some place spiritual themselves.

But I find the vitriol towards him and people like him amusing, especially since the likelihood of anybody posting something like this to be listing the horrible preachings of Falwel or Dobson almost nil, even while the both of them have been so closely associated with party politics for so long.
.......................................

As for Obama, w're getting pretty fucking far removed from anything relevant to him or his own sense of the world. Pinning the shit Auraptor is trying to on Obama is pretty shameful.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:30 PM

RIGHTEOUS9



Auraptor, are yo offended by the idea of a black Jesus? Is that really that offensive?....

are you also saying that at one point the reverend said that god was black and that at another he said blacks should reject his love?

Heh? well at least that isn't racist.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 1:02 PM

PIRATECAT


670,000 Americans died fighting over the freedom of black people that debt to blacks for slavery has been paid. I know all about state rights issue. Well the rev needs to join the party instead of dividing it. If baby Jesus is black then that explains when Herod was killing babies that Jesus blended in when hiding from him in the Sudan. I think thats in the bible.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 1:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

Auraptor, are yo offended by the idea of a black Jesus? Is that really that offensive?....

are you also saying that at one point the reverend said that god was black and that at another he said blacks should reject his love?

Heh? well at least that isn't racist.



Assuming Jesus ever existed, saying he was 'black' is more silly than anything. Really.

And I'm not 'saying' anything. I just posted what this James H. Cone character said, so don't confuse the issue by interjecting ME into what they think and preach. Got a problem w/ their whacky views ? Fine. But don't ask if *I* think it's racist or what ever. It is what it is.






It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 2:14 PM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
What? This is what we've come to? Where a candidate might lose support because he USED to attend a church whose minister found Cone's theology inspirational? Are you serious?

I used to attend a church where they taught women were beneath men, and can't even hold enough authority over boys to teach Sunday school. I went there cause they had really good music. Then I slowly became aware of the creepy sexism and left. Does that mean on this point alone, running for office is ruled out for me?

Candidates should be judged on what they believe today, not for what their former ministers used to think. Good grief.



--------------------------
Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds.
--Henry Adams, The Education of Henry Adams, 1907


Oh...your response is a nice dance. A man running for President is judged by his decisions and relationships and good judgement. I guess you are able to be so liberal and carefree that if he had lunch with Bin Laden a few times that'd be swell too...? 20 years with that maniac fucking racist asshole preacher of hatred and divisiveness & utter paranoid delusions & the Obamas sat there and smiled?,...that means a lot to the vast majority of Americans.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 2:43 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
...20 years with that maniac fucking racist asshole preacher of hatred and divisiveness & utter paranoid delusions & the Obamas sat there and smiled?,...that means a lot to the vast majority of Americans.


Well, it would, if that's what happened.

Any of you listen to Obama's version of what happened in his speech yesterday?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 2:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Eh, that's what happens why you try to edit on the fly.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 2:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???


Well, since you asked...

NO

Rev Wright isn't running for office.

And if you really want to know what Obama thinks (very doubtful) why don't you listen to him yourself?









I hope this thread dies the ignominious death it deserves.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 3:15 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???


Well, since you asked...

NO

Rev Wright isn't running for office.

And if you really want to know what Obama thinks (very doubtful) why don't you listen to him yourself?









I hope this thread dies the ignominious death it deserves.





Barack's after the fact comments are of no value what so ever. Its like Clinton trying to explain ,after he pleasured himself w/ an intern, that no such encounters ever happened. No matter how flowery the speech afterwards, he still did not distance himself from the man who thinks these things, who preached these things for over 20 yrs, and remains unrepentant to his fact challenged and hate filled diatribes he caslls 'sermons'.

I guess I'm not as gullible as so many on here who would rather see the whole affair go away. The only thing which deserves a ignominious end is Obama's campaign, and I truly hope this issue helps that along quickly.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 4:06 PM

RIGHTEOUS9


Auraptor, aside of your Kevin Bacon game with Barrack and Cone via a church connecting reverend WRight, you've failed to even bother to try to articulare how telling us about Cone has anythihng to do with Wright, and your leap from Cone to Obama is even more stunningly short of clearing that chasm.

Dude, what is your point?

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:23 PM

HKCAVALIER


So McCain's preacher friend Hagee can say the Catholic Church is a "great whore" and that gays are the reason God brought Katrina to bear on New Orleans, but since you ain't Catholic and you ain't gay, who cares, right?

Quote:

Given my background, my politics, and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough. Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in the first place, they may ask? Why not join another church? And I confess that if all that I knew of Reverend Wright were the snippets of those sermons that have run in an endless loop on the television and You Tube, or if Trinity United Church of Christ conformed to the caricatures being peddled by some commentators, there is no doubt that I would react in much the same way

But the truth is, that isn't all that I know of the man. The man I met more than twenty years ago is a man who helped introduce me to my Christian faith, a man who spoke to me about our obligations to love one another; to care for the sick and lift up the poor. He is a man who served his country as a U.S. Marine; who has studied and lectured at some of the finest universities and seminaries in the country, and who for over thirty years led a church that serves the community by doing God's work here on Earth - by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS.

In my first book, Dreams From My Father, I described the experience of my first service at Trinity:

"People began to shout, to rise from their seats and clap and cry out, a forceful wind carrying the reverend's voice up into the rafters….And in that single note - hope! - I heard something else; at the foot of that cross, inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion's den, Ezekiel's field of dry bones. Those stories - of survival, and freedom, and hope - became our story, my story; the blood that had spilled was our blood, the tears our tears; until this black church, on this bright day, seemed once more a vessel carrying the story of a people into future generations and into a larger world. Our trials and triumphs became at once unique and universal, black and more than black; in chronicling our journey, the stories and songs gave us a means to reclaim memories that we didn't need to feel shame about…memories that all people might study and cherish - and with which we could start to rebuild."

That has been my experience at Trinity. Like other predominantly black churches across the country, Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety - the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger. Like other black churches, Trinity's services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.

And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions - the good and the bad - of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.

These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.

There's more. Check it out. It's an important speech.



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 8:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA


You know, this is idiotic, both on the face of it and in complexity.

My stock response to being snarked at for being a honky applies here, I think.

"Look, I never did shit to you, you ain't never done shit to me, so why start somethin over nothin ?"

If folks looked at other people as individual human beings, this bullshit wouldn't even be an issue in the first place, ever.

-F

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:29 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

I guess you are able to be so liberal and carefree that if he had lunch with Bin Laden a few times that'd be swell too...?


Well... maybe if he'd had lunch with Saddam - you know, like Rumsfeld did. Go ahead, say it never happened, and that the pictures lie... :)



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

...and of course...God Damn America. What a nice thing to say in a church...especially a church with a US Senator & his children sitting in it...


Except, of course, that Obama WASN'T there when that "sermon" was given. It's already been investigated and proven that he was in Florida when that went down. Even Bill Cristol (the neo-con hack, not the comedian) had to publish a retraction on that one.

Do I have problems with Wright, and with Obama having him as his pastor? You bet I do. But I have problems with ALL the candidates and their "religious advisors". If you're secure in your belief system, you really don't need someone to tell you what you believe, do you?

McCain has TWO whacko religious zealots on his payroll, and you've heard nary a peep about it. Hillary has some certifiable nut-jobs giving her religious "advice", but you don't hear about that, either.

To me, they're all about equally screwed.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:02 AM

SERGEANTX


You know, I don't think I've ever been touchy about racism in the past, but I'm hearing more and more of these stories going around, and to my ear they sound like bedtime stories for people who don't want to face their own racial bigotry.

A friend of my mom's was telling me that there's a real danger that Obama could be a "plant". I pressed the issue and she said outright that she thought he could be in some kind of terrorist sleeper cell or something. She's old, but otherwise sane and intelligent. But she is a bit of a racist, by today's standards, and I think latching on to these kinds of stories gives her "cover".

I'm hearing this same kind of crap from all kinds of sources too. Most of them are perpetuated by older, whiter, people, but it's not just them.

Until a couple of months ago, I'd have really resisted the notion that this election will be any kind of referendum on racism. But I'm beginning to think that in its own subtle way, it very much will be.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:22 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Rev. Wright is a good example of the extreme racism that exists in the US. A racism that exists predominately among African-Americans, at least some. Unfortunately, there is a double standard when it comes to racism in the US. An outright racist like Rev. Wright gets defended for his racist statements for being black. But a white person, like say someone in the KKK, would be despised for his racist views. Quite frankly, I have no stomach for racism and I won’t give Rev. Wright a pass because he’s black. He is as big racist as anyone in the KKK, and his association with Obama is a huge stain on Obama’s campaign. Now I never had any intention of voting for Obama, but if I had been, this would make me rethink whether Obama is really fit to be the President of the US.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:36 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

He is as big racist as anyone in the KKK, and his association with Obama is a huge stain on Obama’s campaign.


Finn, my hat's off to you. While we may disagree, sometimes vehemently, on most political matters, I think you've summed this issue up more succinctly than anyone I've yet discussed it with.

I *DO* have a problem with Wright, and by association with Obama - but then again, I have a problem with pretty much any religious person, since it's hard to have a heart-to-heart talk with someone whom you feel to be rather insane, believing in fairy tales and such...

Obama has pretty much had my vote to lose since early in the campaign. Crap like Wright's "God DAMN America!" diatribe don't do a thing for people like me. It doesn't make me want to vote for Obama, and it doesn't make me really want to vote AGAINST him, either; it just makes me want to stay home on Election Day. :(

Mostly, though, it makes me want the grab Wright by the scruff of his neck, shake him - HARD - and scream "What the fuck were you THINKING?! YOU'RE NOT HELPING!!"





Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:37 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Rev. Wright is a good example of the extreme racism that exists in the US. A racism that exists predominately among African-Americans, at least some. Unfortunately, there is a double standard when it comes to racism in the US. An outright racist like Rev. Wright gets defended for his racist statements for being black. But a white person, like say someone in the KKK, would be despised for his racist views. Quite frankly, I have no stomach for racism and I won’t give Rev. Wright a pass because he’s black. He is as big racist as anyone in the KKK, and his association with Obama is a huge stain on Obama’s campaign. Now I never had any intention of voting for Obama, but if I had been, this would make me rethink whether Obama is really fit to be the President of the US.

-- Cicero


Well you're right...Obama is not really fit anymore...His judgement is pathetic and he is a hypocrite racist himself :

When Imus uttered that phrase NHH Obama & Jesse Jackson immediately demanded that he be fired. They did NOT want to hear about the millions he'd given to charity, or his ranch for poor kids....they didn't want to know anything except that Imus would be gone. But NOW...Obama & Jackson want us all to look at ALL of Rev Wright's history, not just the you tube rants. And that my friends is total bullshit hypocricy! Truth is I don't care about Wright's vile racism. I care about his virulent anti-Americanism...his hatred of the country he lives in..and for Obama to equate his hatred of America to race is also total bullshit. Obama is toast, so are the Dems as they are stuck with him.

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
Auraptor, aside of your Kevin Bacon game with Barrack and Cone via a church connecting reverend WRight, you've failed to even bother to try to articulare how telling us about Cone has anythihng to do with Wright, and your leap from Cone to Obama is even more stunningly short of clearing that chasm.

Dude, what is your point?



It's really straight forward, if you read the post. Cone taught Wright and Wright preached his brand of hatred and racism to Obama ( along w/ the rest of his congregation ) That Obama, who could chose any Church he wished, would decide to stick w/ this race baiting kook is all the more telling of Mr. Obma.

To put it in perspective, Cone is the Sith Lord to Wright's apprenticeship, and Obama is the apprentice to Sith Lord Wright.

Got it?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 12:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Sarge: Obviously racism is alive and well in the USA.

What I heard Obama say is that resentment on all sides of the black/ white/ brown/ yellow divide is real, with real reasons behind it. But if we fight racially over ever-diminishing opportunities, the real reasons for our crumbling schools, dysfunctional healthcare, and disappearing jobs will laugh all the way to the bank.

Up until then I thought Obama was just an empty suit, but at that point he got my vote.

We've got to MOVE ON, people, and start making real changes instead of fighting over crap that's 200 years old!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 1:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It's really straight forward, if you read the post. Cone taught Wright and Wright preached his brand of hatred and racism to Obama
So that means that George 'dubya' Bush learned his fascist ways from his father WH Bush, who in turn learned them from his Nazi-supporting father, Senator Prescott Bush!
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

*sarcasm on*
Hot damn, man... I never thought I'd agree with you on anything!
*sarcasm off*


---------------------------------
Let's play six degrees of Kevin Bacon for this election.

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 1:12 PM

ANTIMASON


"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as His divine messianic force to be -- a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America: 'You are too arrogant! If you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power"" - Martin Luther King

i dont know specifically the reverend Wrights views, whether his theology is consistent with what i know of the bible.. but i will say that Dr. Kings speech rings very true to me. now im not sure whether their is underlying racial bias involved in Mr. Wrights beliefs, or the so called "black liberation theology", but this is a lesson every church should learn, since its implicit in almost every aspect of Jesus' messages

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Thursday, March 20, 2008 4:06 PM

HKCAVALIER


You wanna listen to a REAL racist black man??? Try and sit through this:



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 2:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

It's really straight forward, if you read the post. Cone taught Wright and Wright preached his brand of hatred and racism to Obama
So that means that George 'dubya' Bush learned his fascist ways from his father WH Bush, who in turn learned them from his Nazi-supporting father, Senator Prescott Bush!
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

*sarcasm on*
Hot damn, man... I never thought I'd agree with you on anything!
*sarcasm off*


---------------------------------
Let's play six degrees of Kevin Bacon for this election.



Problem is, Bush isn't a fascist, nor was his father, so your whole silly argument has no legs to it.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 21, 2008 3:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You wanna listen to a REAL racist black man??? Try and sit through this:



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



How is that racist? A bit daft, maybe, but there's some truth to it. Seems to be more like dueling preachers than anything, trying to out shout each other rather than sticking to the word of God.

Sad, in either case.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 21, 2008 4:49 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Problem is, Bush isn't a fascist, nor was his father, so your whole silly argument has no legs to it.



So, if I was to claim that Obama isn't a racist, and neither was his pastor, then "your whole silly argument" would suddenly fall apart?

See, your OPINION is that Bush isn't a fascist. There are several million people out there who would disagree with that opinion. You feel that Bush isn't a fascist, and that Obama is a racist. Obviously, others could feel completely the opposite, and both viewpoints would be equally valid to those who held them - and ironically, neither would be completely right or completely wrong!

You can say you don't like Obama for his racist leanings, and Bush's detractors can as easily say that they don't like Bush and his supporters for their fascist leanings. And BOTH be correct in their assessments, at least somewhat.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Friday, March 21, 2008 5:48 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


I’m not an advocate of the belief that terms like “racism” and “fascism” are defined on popular opinion. If that were the case, then anyone would be a fascist or a racist, simply because enough people didn’t agree with them. Rev. Wright is not a racist because people don’t agree with him. He is a racist because one of the accepted definitions of racism, prejudice or animosity against people who belong to another race, fits opinions he has clearly advocated. Fascism has a definition too. Fascism is an ideology that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition and extreme nationalism. Nothing Bush has ever said or done could honestly be construed as meeting these criteria. Just because people like Signym don’t agree with his policies doesn’t make him a fascist. In order for Bush to be a fascist he must meet this definition regardless of how popular opinion views him.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 21, 2008 6:13 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM




Jesus saves....

He passes to Noah,
He shoots,
HE SCORES...!!!

edit: photo credit to Zaius Nation (finger on the pulse of the ape nation)

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Friday, March 21, 2008 6:38 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You wanna listen to a REAL racist black man??? Try and sit through this:



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



How is that racist?

Attacking Obama because his mother is white sounds pretty racist to me.

Of course HK’s statement that this is a “REAL racist black man,” as if somehow Rev. Wright is not, is pretty silly.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 21, 2008 7:04 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


auraptor, at any point did you think the effort should be made to make Bush renounce his dead grandfather for being a Nazi sympathiser?

You're right, that man being his relative doesn't make Dubya a faccist, any more than Obama going to Wright's church makes him a racist.

The argument against that of course, is that well, Dubya is a fascist, so maybe the connection applies, but I don't think you want to go that way, and you've said you don't believe him to be a fascist, presumably because you haven't looked up the word lately...

but what Sygm was pointing out is that the conflation you attempted to apply to Obama and Cone would be applicable and fair to apply to the Bush family, if such a thing is ever fair. You chose to ignore that angle, and no surprise.

I wish that once in a while, you'd go after the things you think are the strongest points in a person's post, rather than to ignore those in favor of latching on to throw-away lines in an effort to debunk the poster.

to be fair, you probably aren't alone in that, and maybe I"m guilty sometimes, but I certainly try not to be. It's just a little tiring to always have to redirect a person to an original point that was obvious, frankly.


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Friday, March 21, 2008 7:43 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Jongsstraw- The ONLY way out for Obama to keep his candidacy even remotely viable is to just come out and say that Rev Wright is INSANE. Nothing less will work, and even that probably won't prevent his total collapse of support.


i almost despise this 'renouncing' bs... why not fess up to what you believe, if you firmly believe anything, and confront the consequences? to me, its more important we know the truth, whatever it is, then whether Obama even agrees with rev. Wright. i dont want press corrections and phony apologies and renouncements. tell us the truth, so we can make a decision.. but i resent the ambiguity. i believe in fallen angels and this 'grand' conspiracy.. but i will always tell it like i see it, popular or not


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Friday, March 21, 2008 8:01 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
How is that racist? A bit daft, maybe, but there's some truth to it.


Um, okay, telling us that Obama is trash because his black "in-heat" father went with a trashy white woman, that Obama's character is disgraceful based on his being the product of what folk used to call "miscegenation" is purely, and utterly racist, while (and, y'know, I know this is gonna get some folk riled) the Rev. Wright's attacks on white America are really a mix of racist rhetoric and classist arguments. There are white people who have criticized our government every bit as vehemently as Rev. Wright, even on this board. Dr. Paul (rumored to be a white racist, interestingly enough) has spoken of America's "chickens coming home to roost." But Wright is not a white man, and as Obama points out in his speech, Rev. Wright belongs to a generation of black people that suffered through the era before civil-rights and to some extent are still stuck in that world.

It is apparently very difficult for a lot of white people in this country to understand what segregation felt like, and what the assumption of white cultural supremacy has done and continues to do to this day; or that white culture has been racist even though many individuals within that culture have not. Sadly, many blacks, like Rev. Wright, fail to realize that the "rich white men" in power haven't been too generous to us poor white folk either. We have in this country, perhaps more than in any other country on earth, an ethos that states that the poor are poor because they are weak, stupid, and lazy and the rich are all rich by virtue of their zeal, ambition, intelligence and plain good character. We white Americans deny class distinction (most black people live it), we deny discrimination (most black people live or have lived it), we deny that the powerful exploit the weak (ditto) or that our government has ever done anything on the world stage for less than the most humanitarian reasons.

Interestingly--though only a couple of the clips of Wright's speeches I've seen have their dates showing--interestingly they all seem to be speeches he's made after 9/11. Pretty recent. And unless he has only three suits in his wardrobe, these clips are coming from only a handful of sermons.

Hrm.

I don't know about you, but I've noticed A LOT of otherwise reasonable people say some pretty bat-shit crazy things since 9/11. A close friend of mine of some 15 years went so far as advocating that we nuke Mecca. A close up friend of MINE! Can ya believe it? Did I disown him? Did I denounce him where he stood and tell everyone I know that he was a psychotic pseudo-neo-neo-con?

Uh, no. I was pretty shocked, told him so, mentioned it to one or two of our mutual friends in a "I'm kinda worried about Bill lately" way and we kinda left it like that until a few years later he apologized, explaining that he'd "gone a little crazy" after 9/11 happened. Like a lot of us.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 8:13 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
How is that racist? A bit daft, maybe, but there's some truth to it.


Um, okay, telling us that Obama is trash because his black "in-heat" father went with a trashy white woman, that Obama's character is disgraceful based on his being the product of what folk used to call "miscegenation" is purely, and utterly racist, while (and, y'know, I know this is gonna get some folk riled) the Rev. Wright's attacks on white America are really a mix of racist rhetoric and classist arguments. There are white people who have criticized our government every bit as vehemently as Rev. Wright, even on this board. Dr. Paul (rumored to be a white racist, interestingly enough) has spoken of America's "chickens coming home to roost." But Wright is not a white man, and as Obama points out in his speech, Rev. Wright belongs to a generation of black people that suffered through the era before civil-rights and to some extent are still stuck in that world.

So it’s okay to be a racist as long as you’re supporting a Democrat, but if you’re not supporting a Democrat, you’re just “utterly racist.” Got it.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 21, 2008 8:19 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So it’s okay to be a racist as long as you’re supporting a Democrat, but if you’re not supporting a Democrat, you’re just “utterly racist.” Got it.


Hey Finn,

Glad to see you're still finding amuzement twirling your finger in the scum trap. I wish I had so much time on my hands that I could waste it the way you do.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 8:24 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Glad to see you're still finding amuzement twirling your finger in the scum trap. I wish I had so much time on my hands that I could waste it the way you do.

You spend as much if not more time here then I do, I'm pretty sure.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 21, 2008 8:57 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:

Jongsstraw- The ONLY way out for Obama to keep his candidacy even remotely viable is to just come out and say that Rev Wright is INSANE. Nothing less will work, and even that probably won't prevent his total collapse of support.


i almost despise this 'renouncing' bs... why not fess up to what you believe, if you firmly believe anything, and confront the consequences? to me, its more important we know the truth, whatever it is, then whether Obama even agrees with rev. Wright. i dont want press corrections and phony apologies and renouncements. tell us the truth, so we can make a decision.. but i resent the ambiguity. i believe in fallen angels and this 'grand' conspiracy.. but i will always tell it like i see it, popular or not


The Rev Wright issue will go away in time, but Obama has really not helped himself through this, mainly for the sentiment you just wrote about. Rather than separate himself clearly from the Rev, he chose to offer moral equivalenices citing his grandmother and Geraldine Ferraro...pretty lame in my opinion. He also has to answer for his actions during the Imus "lynching", and how or why that is any different from the Rev. As I said before, I really don't care or even believe the "race" element here. I believe it was used by Obama to somehow try to equate the Rev's viscious anti-Americanism with old-time systemic racism, which really does not exist in America anymore. Yes there are individuals who are racists, and even organizations which are racist, but the USA now has laws on the books to protect all minorities in every aspect of life....jobs, housing and civil rights. The fringe Left is all to quick to brand people racists, yet they offer spins and dancing surrounding this Rev and Obama.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 8:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Just because people like Signym don’t agree with his policies doesn’t make him a fascist. In order for Bush to be a fascist he must meet this definition regardless of how popular opinion views him.
Hey Finn, you so totally missed the point it's beyond funny.

Justsayin'isall.


---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 9:03 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Just because people like Signym don’t agree with his policies doesn’t make him a fascist. In order for Bush to be a fascist he must meet this definition regardless of how popular opinion views him.
Hey Finn, you so totally missed the point it's beyond funny.

No. I didn’t miss your point at all. I was simply responding to Kwicko’s post.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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