REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, March 30, 2008 15:30
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7761
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Friday, March 21, 2008 9:04 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You spend as much if not more time here then I do, I'm pretty sure.


You missed the effing point, you ugly minded jackass. I don't consider the RWED to be a scum trap. You do. Your blanket contempt for those who disagree with you blinds you beyond reach of even the simplest irony from me.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 9:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Eh, OK.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 9:11 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You spend as much if not more time here then I do, I'm pretty sure.


You missed the effing point, you ugly minded jackass. I don't consider the RWED to be a scum trap. You do. Your blanket contempt for those who disagree with you blinds you beyond reach of even the simplest irony from me.

No I didn’t miss that point either, but you however, have a knack for hypocrisy. First you dismiss the racism of one man because he supports a candidate you sympathize with while condemning another man who doesn’t support that candidate. And now you make personal attacks against me, while accusing me of showing contempt for those who disagree with me. When in fact, I have no contempt at all for you, other then your personal attacks of me.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 21, 2008 10:57 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
First you dismiss the racism of one man because he supports a candidate you sympathize with while condemning another man who doesn’t support that candidate.

Incorrect and a dismal summation of my post. Not surprising.
Quote:

And now you make personal attacks against me, while accusing me of showing contempt for those who disagree with me. When in fact, I have no contempt at all for you, other then your personal attacks of me.
I certainly don't need you to admit your contempt for me as an individual when you made your contempt for everyone who takes the RWED seriously plain in your "scum trap" post, claiming that the purpose of the RWED was to keep people whom you habitually disagree with and disapprove of (Signy, Frem, etc.--aka: the scum) from "polluting" the rest of the forum. My contempt for you is not hypocritical, it is open and direct, and to my mind, well earned.

For me, discussions with you are the scum of this board and so I tend to avoid them. I've intended to make my feelings clear since you posted your ugly disrespect for the rest of us, but I've had better things to do.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 11:24 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
For me, discussions with you are the scum of this board and so I tend to avoid them. I've intended to make my feelings clear since you posted your ugly disrespect for the rest of us, but I've had better things to do.

If you want to despise people who don’t share your opinions, consider you feelings known and acknowledged.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 21, 2008 12:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


To get back to the original question You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ??? my answer is NO. First of all, Auraptor doens't even focus on Wright but on another person, and secondly, I don't think meeting someone three times removed from a candidate gives me any insight into that candidate, just as meeting Prescott Bush would necessarily give me any insight into GW Bush.

So Auraptor is- as usual- creating FUD. Let's get back to the real issues instead of focusing on crappy toilet-paper, OK?



---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 12:13 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
...I don't think meeting someone three times removed from a candidate gives me any insight into that candidate, just as meeting Prescott Bush would necessarily give me any insight into GW Bush.

I tend to agree, but I don’t think it’s insignificant that Obama attended a church for 20 years run by a Reverend who obviously has opinions that are completely unacceptable, as far as I’m concerned, for an American President. And I think it’s perfectly within reason for those people who may be interested in voting for Obama to carefully consider whether they are comfortable with their assessment of how significant this is.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 21, 2008 12:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, let me put it this way: Would you look closely at a candidates spouse? Parents? Former employers? Contributors? Staff members? Lobbyists?

I think I could make a case that any candidate spends at least as much time with these family members and associates as they do with a minister, and that these contacts are at least as likely to influence a candidate's thinking if not more so. I mean, hell, I attended a church for 20 year with the stupidest Polish priest ever. Is that gonna stick to my shoe for the rest of my life?

If you're not going to look in detail at the entire context of a candidate's associations, then why focus on this one person? I think it just panders to a secret paranioa that whites have about a "black agenda". And, like those who are STILL paranoid about Saddam's "WMD" (HA!) there is no way to lay to rest anyone's paranoia about it.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 12:37 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I certainly don't need you to admit your contempt for me as an individual when you made your contempt for everyone who takes the RWED seriously plain in your "scum trap" post, claiming that the purpose of the RWED was to keep people whom you habitually disagree with and disapprove of (Signy, Frem, etc.--aka: the scum) from "polluting" the rest of the forum. My contempt for you is not hypocritical, it is open and direct, and to my mind, well earned.

For me, discussions with you are the scum of this board and so I tend to avoid them. I've intended to make my feelings clear since you posted your ugly disrespect for the rest of us, but I've had better things to do.



How about looking at this from another angle. I remember the "scum trap" analogy and thought it quite apropos. The whole reason RWED was initialy formed was to keep discussions such as this from the regular board. A point that I thought Finn made quite clear. We all can wax poetic about our shared interest, Firefly, but things can get quite heated when discussin politics and the like. I've often found it interesting that such diametrically opposite individuals could find themselves enamoured of the same show, but I digress.
Instead of scaring off potential recruits at the main board, our crap finging sessions were sent to RWED where the inquisitive can go if so inclined. I believe it was more the tone and subject of these discussions, not the discussers themselves which are the "scum" that requires "trapping".
But hey, far be it for me to put words in Finn's mouth. If he actually meant to call people scum than I guess that is his right as well. Heard much worse insults in these parts than that though, much worse.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 12:44 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, let me put it this way: Would you look closely at a candidates spouse? Parents? Former employers? Contributors? Staff members? Lobbyists?

I think I could make a case that any candidate spends at least as much time with these family members and associates as they do with a minister, and that these contacts are at least as likely to influence a candidate's thinking if not more so. I mean, hell, I attended a church for 20 year with the stupidest Polish priest ever. Is that gonna stick to my shoe for the rest of my life?

If you're not going to look in detail at the entire context of a candidate's associations, then why focus on this one person? I think it just panders to a secret paranioa that whites have about a "black agenda". And, like those who are STILL paranoid about Saddam's "WMD" (HA!) there is no way to lay to rest anyone's paranoia about it.


Because unlike you, me, and Joe Blow, Rev. Wright has an audience. This seemed to make a difference when we were discussing Don Imus, so why not now?

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Friday, March 21, 2008 12:50 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Because unlike you, me, and Joe Blow, Rev. Wright has an audience. This seemed to make a difference when we were discussing Don Imus, so why not now?
Because when we were discussing Don Imus, we were discussing Don Imus, not the girls of the basketball team. If you want to discuss Rev Wright and his audience, then go ahead and discuss Rev Wright and his audience. But conflating Obama with Wright is silly.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 12:56 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Because when we were discussing Don Imus, we were discussing Don Imus, not the girls of the basketball team. If you want to discuss Rev Wright and his audience, then go ahead and discuss Rev Wright and his audience. But assuming that Obama follows lock-step with everything his minister says is just silly.


How about 'guilty by association'?
Obama legitimizes Rev. Wright's racism by just being there. If it is okay for a Presidential nominee it must be more than okay for everyone else.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 1:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

How about 'guilty by association'?
Because it's a stupid premise?

Or, if you want to look into a person's associations, like I said: Why stop there?

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 1:25 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

How about 'guilty by association'?
Because it's a stupid premise?


You sure you want to go down that road?
Bush must be evil because he associates with Cheney, who is associated with Haliburton. Both associated with Rove and Libby who associated with Rumsfeld who associated with Saddam who associated with...
Are you sure this isn't a simple case of see, hear, and speak no evil when 'your' guy is involved?

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Friday, March 21, 2008 1:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I see we xposted. Like I said: Why stop at one contact? Especially a contact that has no quid pro quo attached? If you're going to judge a person by "the company he keeps" then look at those who would influence that person day to day: their boss, their spouse, the lobbyists that wheedle them and the staffers that feed them information. You laso have to look at their history: What have they done in the past that was significant? Do they have patterns of behavior?

I shouldn't have to be telling you this. You're smarter than that, I thought. To focus on a single person and then blow up the significance until it blots out everything else is just hysteria.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 1:49 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I see we xposted. Like I said: Why stop at one contact? Especially a contact that has no quid pro quo attached? If you're going to judge a person by "the company he keeps" then look at those who would influence that person day to day: their boss, their spouse, the lobbyists that wheedle them and the staffers that feed them information. You laso have to look at their history: What have they done in the past that was significant? Do they have patterns of behavior?


To my thinking, the staffers and lobbyists (who are open to scrutiny) are a part of the job. If ya wanna be President, you take the good with the bad.
Where Obama voluntarily chooses to worship and who he voluntarily chooses to listen to are just that, his choice. One choice that is not working in his favour at this time, be that right or wrong.
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
To focus on a single person and then blow up the significance until it blots out everything else is just hysteria.


Blowing things up is counter-productive, so is glossing things over. Two different kinds of hysteria, both just as dangerous.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 2:05 PM

ARCLIGHT


Get over it. The guy is a RACIST.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 2:20 PM

ARCLIGHT


I am glad that my family owned slaves. They helped out a lot of people. U.S.A. beats the ever loving hell out what exist in Africa.

bb

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Friday, March 21, 2008 2:30 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
How about looking at this from another angle. I remember the "scum trap" analogy and thought it quite apropos. The whole reason RWED was initialy formed was to keep discussions such as this from the regular board. A point that I thought Finn made quite clear. We all can wax poetic about our shared interest, Firefly, but things can get quite heated when discussin politics and the like. I've often found it interesting that such diametrically opposite individuals could find themselves enamoured of the same show, but I digress.
Instead of scaring off potential recruits at the main board, our crap finging sessions were sent to RWED where the inquisitive can go if so inclined. I believe it was more the tone and subject of these discussions, not the discussers themselves which are the "scum" that requires "trapping".
But hey, far be it for me to put words in Finn's mouth. If he actually meant to call people scum than I guess that is his right as well. Heard much worse insults in these parts than that though, much worse.


Hey BDN,

Thanks for the civility of your comment. I too was pleasantly surprised at the appeal of Firefly to people of such disparate political views. (I remember my first encounter with this amazing phenomenon when someone posted that Malcolm Reynolds reminded him of George W. Bush. "Holy crap!" I thought, "How is that even possible?" But I was younger then... )

Few works of art span such chasms of ideology and temperament and those few that do are the great ones. While it's true that I tend to post in the RWED far more than I do up the page, doesn't mean I don't lurk up there a great deal. It's just that I've been here since we were writing post cards to Hollywood addresses and I've about said all I can about the best T.V. show I've ever seen and the only T.V. show I wouldn't feel deeply embarrassed to campaigned for.

But back to Finn. You don't have to put words in his mouth because he speaks for himself. Back in the WTF? People on here voted that Bush should be prez in '04?! thread he said:
Quote:

RWED is largely a joke.
(Slam against those of us who take it seriously.) It’s full of conversations and ideas that are more fanciful and unrealistic then probably any discussion anywhere else on the board. (Surely Finn is not including himself as the author of any such conversations and ideas.) The fact that there is no moderation means that real debate is buried under dishonesty and personal attacks and crazy paranoid delusions.(All presumably from people Finn doesn't like, people not Finn--and begs the question, "Why does he waste his time?") But it creates a reservoir into which all the crap goes. Like a filtration system in a pool, it attracts all the those people(aka: "all the crap" referenced in the previous sentence) and all that discussion that would otherwise foul the waters and eventually ruin the board completely. By keeping all the Bush-haters, for instance, (Exactly!) in this little room, discussion in the other boards can continue without that destabilizing influence...(...of people other than Finn, of course.)
Hardly the neutral analogy you propose he offered us.

I was here at the RWED's genesis and I think it was entirely appropriate at the time to keep every discussion from devolving into politics (as so many did back then--anyone here remember Ghoulman?), but I also think it is a testament to Joss's genius that his astonishingly short-lived television program would inspire so many people of such different political convictions to still be hashing things out now 6 years on.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 3:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Blowing things up is counter-productive, so is glossing things over. Two different kinds of hysteria, both just as dangerous.
Indeed. Then, we should look at Reverend Wright's sermons in totality, or at least take a enough of a sampling to know if the entirety of his viewpoint is represented by three words or by a quote from a white ambassador.

Anyone here care to do some research on Wright's views? He's written four books so - start cracking! Or are we just going to go with a couple of snippets?

More importantly, since Wright isn't running for Office, does anyone care to research Obama's views and history? 'Cause I'd rather meet Obama than Wright.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 5:52 PM

AVENGINGWATCHER


Holy crap, a preacher who's racist? No friggin way!!! Just an fyi anyone who goes to the same church and then goes into politics was zoned out during the sermons...like most church goers...the book isn't that long and it's been around for most of recorded history...That being said some points of clarification, Jesus the person most definitely existed, I'm not a christian but it has been well documented the man existed. Please try to give us posts that are NOT from an easily editable source like wikipedia, since they poster can't even spell barack obama correctly(yes I know I typing in all lowercase, I'm lazy) going on...the guy's a racist...so what...that doesn't mean obama hate whitey any more than bush not showing up for duty when he was in the guard, or lying to the american public or violating the constitution regularly...you know, actual issues... chickens coming hoem to roost? what were these ministers hungry? there's a racist joke in there ooh maybe I'm a racist, but hey I can say whatever I'd like because we have protected speech...or is it only if we agree with the speech? hate speech is dumb in general but there are asses on all sides of the issue...are there problems with black culture in america right now? you bet..it's in serious need of some leadership and role models...look up the numbers if you think i'm being racist... but again, that being said look at barack's record and if you find his actions have been racist then make your opinion on that, not some ass clown preacher who has a habit of hatred... browncoat power!!

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

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Friday, March 21, 2008 6:15 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Auraptor:

As to the posted question, "You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright???"

Yeah, I'd like to. Unfortunately, your posting doesn't tell me a damn thing about him, except that he's apparently read books written by someone else that may (or may not) have had an influence on his personal theology.

Oh, wow. What a shocker, that a religious black man growing up in the civil rights era might look to sources and viewpoints within the black community. Tomorrow's headline: "Teenagers interested in sex." That's just about as surprising.








"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Friday, March 21, 2008 6:31 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, let me put it this way: Would you look closely at a candidates spouse? Parents? Former employers? Contributors? Staff members? Lobbyists?

If any of these people are influential in the candidates opinions then maybe they should be considered. But I don’t form a commitment with my church that supersedes the opinions that church espouses the way I might form a commitment with my parents or my spouse. I’m not going to leave my wife because I discover after marrying her that she holds opinions that I find reprehensible, because I’ve formed a commitment with her that should supersede differences of political opinion. On the other hand, I’m not going to attend a church for 20 years that espouses hatred unless I have some reason to agree with that hatred. As far as staff members, contributors or former employers go - in most cases - there are reasons why a person my stay with these people despite political or social opinion, but I can see little reason for attending a church for 20 years that espouses an opinion I found reprehensible. It’s just not the same thing.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 21, 2008 6:36 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But back to Finn. You don't have to put words in his mouth because he speaks for himself. Back in the WTF? People on here voted that Bush should be prez in '04?! thread he said:
Quote:

RWED is largely a joke.
(Slam against those of us who take it seriously.) It’s full of conversations and ideas that are more fanciful and unrealistic then probably any discussion anywhere else on the board. (Surely Finn is not including himself as the author of any such conversations and ideas.) The fact that there is no moderation means that real debate is buried under dishonesty and personal attacks and crazy paranoid delusions.(All presumably from people Finn doesn't like, people not Finn--and begs the question, "Why does he waste his time?") But it creates a reservoir into which all the crap goes. Like a filtration system in a pool, it attracts all the those people(aka: "all the crap" referenced in the previous sentence) and all that discussion that would otherwise foul the waters and eventually ruin the board completely. By keeping all the Bush-haters, for instance, (Exactly!) in this little room, discussion in the other boards can continue without that destabilizing influence...(...of people other than Finn, of course.)
Hardly the neutral analogy you propose he offered us.

So the problem that you have is not with the “scum trap” argument, but that I framed it from my point of view. The problem that you have is that I disagree with the Bush-hater position, and that was enough to cause you to become blind to any argument I made. Essentially you are doing exactly what you accused me of:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You missed the effing point, you ugly minded jackass. I don't consider the RWED to be a scum trap. You do. Your blanket contempt for those who disagree with you blinds you beyond reach of even the simplest irony from me.

Your contempt for those you disagree with blinds you beyond reach of the simplest arguments. You’re just full of hypocrisy today, aren’t you?



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 21, 2008 7:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Look Finn, it's very obvious to everyone- except maybe you!- that anyone who disagrees with you is "scum". So. Whatever. You might convince yourself that's not what you "meant" or how it "should" be interpreted but most people here get what you said quite clearly.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:
Auraptor:

As to the posted question, "You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright???"

Yeah, I'd like to. Unfortunately, your posting doesn't tell me a damn thing about him, except that he's apparently read books written by someone else that may (or may not) have had an influence on his personal theology.

Oh, wow. What a shocker, that a religious black man growing up in the civil rights era might look to sources and viewpoints within the black community. Tomorrow's headline: "Teenagers interested in sex." That's just about as surprising.




Rocket, maybe if you took the time to read what is posted, you'd understand more.

Quote:

James Cone was the first person to create a systematic Black theology. He felt that Black Christians in Northern America should not follow the "white Church", as it had failed to support them in their struggle for equal rights. Though this theme runs throughout Cone's work, his early books (Black Theology and Black Power and A Black Theology of Liberation) draw heavily on mainstream white theologians like Karl Barth (on whom Cone had written his doctoral thesis) and Paul Tillich.



As it states right in the post , Cone indeed was a strong influence on Rev. Wright's teachings. There's no speculation as to whether he influence the Rev. Wright or not. There's no ambiguity what so ever. It's Cone who comes up w/ this separatists view of Christianity, aka " The Black Theology of Liberation "

Quote:


Some of Cones quotes have drawn controversy. Barak Obama's former minister Jeremiah Wright was inspired by Cone. Although Obama has condemned some of most controversial statements of Wright as needlessly divisive and distorted, Wright's ministry is founded on the black theology that Cone helped to create



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:46 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Look Finn, it's very obvious to everyone- except maybe you!- that anyone who disagrees with you is "scum". So. Whatever. You might convince yourself that's not what you "meant" or how it "should" be interpreted but most people here get what you said quite clearly.

Yes, I think most people did get what I meant. BDN obviously understand it quite clearly, so what is your problem? I think there are two problems here. First I think you prefer to think that I was calling everyone “scum,” because you want cause to attack me sometime in future. Just as HK did today. Instead of debating the issue he chose to attack me using as his cause the spurious presumption that I was calling him and every else “scum.” The second reason is that you don’t really like that I used as my example the Bush-hater argument since you‘re guilty of it. But the Bush-hater argument is a perfect example of a scum argument that gets trapped by the RWED board. So yes, I think you’re right that everyone understood what I meant, but some of you will choose to misinterpret it for argumentative reason. If there’s anything you and HK don’t get about the “scum trap” point, it is that you continue to prove the point.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 11:17 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Look Finn, it's very obvious to everyone- except maybe you!- that anyone who disagrees with you is "scum". So. Whatever. You might convince yourself that's not what you "meant" or how it "should" be interpreted but most people here get what you said quite clearly.

Yes, I think most people did get what I meant.



It was oblivious to me what you meant by "scum trap" and I'm just glad to be in the company of scum of the quality found in the RWED. People who are looking for something to be offended by will find somthing regardless. I think there must be some past history I missed that makes some so sensitive. Your posts always seem reasonable and appropriately respectful to me.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:49 PM

FLETCH2


Irrespective of intended meaning, it remains an unfortunate choice of words.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 7:54 AM

ANTIMASON


this whole situation would be irrelevant today, had Obama just been upfront from the beginning, and actually told us, himself, what he believes in. God forbid someone in the media ask him such a specific question as to avoid any ambiguity, but i digress...
i suppose i dont expect anymore from a liberal, unless its politically expedient of course

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Monday, March 24, 2008 8:43 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
this whole situation would be irrelevant today, had Obama just been upfront from the beginning, and actually told us, himself, what he believes in. God forbid someone in the media ask him such a specific question as to avoid any ambiguity, but i digress...
i suppose i dont expect anymore from a liberal, unless its politically expedient of course

??? He has spoken at length about his Christian faith, his love of the United States, his commitment to community, etc. He wrote a book on what he believes called The Audacity of Hope. So, I don't think the problem is that he's never told us what he believes in. It troubles me no end that people take the soundbites they hear on the news at face value and assume that they can form informed opinions based upon them alone. We bitch constantly about the mainstream media and turn right around and form or oppinions based on their half-truths.
That a lot of people like spouting off about all this without doing 5 minutes' research or bothering to tune into Obama's speeches and speaking appearances, doesn't help.

I think the problem is that folk don't believe him, are prejudiced against him for any number of reasons (not the least of which being that he's a politician) and continue to look for evidence that who he claims to be is a big fat lie. I think our political discussions on this board and at large have devolved into a pathetic game of "Gotcha!" No one wants to really talk about anything anymore, they just want to find the magic "gotcha!" factoid that allows them to dismiss their opposition out of hand.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 10:23 AM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Kirkules wrote:
Wednesday, March 19, 2008 11:18
I refuse to feel any guit about slavery. My ancestors came to this county only about a hundred years ago from a country that abolished the slave trade in 1776. Obama's family is much more likely to have been involve with the slave trade than mine. His African born father's family could have been rounding up slaves from other tribes for foreign sale for a hundred years after my ancestors abolished slavery.

It was a huge mistake for Obama to fall into Hillary's trap and bring race into the contest. His popularity among whites was partially due to the image he was projecting as a uniter of races. Now he's just another black dude running for President.

And Yes, Cantakesky you would be disqualified from being President in my book. If you were an adult when you attended the sexist church and continued to go even after their beliefs were known to you. Doesn't mean you aren't a good person, just means you don't have the leadership skills required to be President. A leader is someone that stands up for their beliefs even when they are not popular in the group they are currently in.









Nobody is asking you to feel guilty about slavery, but you should understand that as a white man or woman you have reaped the benifits of slavery, even if none of your ancestors never owned a slave. You enjoy white privlage and your white privlage has come at the exspense of others mainly Black Americans, you also benifit from the wealth of this country which was built off the blood sweat and tears of Black slaves, to this very day you benifit.

you can't help your whiteness no more then a black person can help their blackness, you were born into an unjust and unfair system, the diffrence is the system benefits you at the exspense of others.

So even though you may not like hearing the truth, it doesn't change it, and its natural, its human nature for a person that benifits from such a system to ingnore it, or deny it because to own it that might actually mean you would have to do something about it.


Quote:

..But I find the vitriol towards him and people like him amusing, especially since the likelihood of anybody posting something like this to be listing the horrible preachings of Falwel or Dobson almost nil, even while the both of them have been so closely associated with party politics for so long. .


I too find it amsusing very amsusing

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Monday, March 24, 2008 10:31 AM

PIRATEJENNY


Obama was raised by his mother and her family so I doubt seriously if he hates whitey as you put it.

but I'm just amazed how so many people are feining sudden ignorance about the black church and what it represents to black people, its always been more then a church , its been a place where people have organized politcally and socially, and techinquely a black person in American can't be a racist, they can react to racism, and they can be prejudiced, but they don't have the power to be racist, and since there are so many people on this forum who think they are so smart and so educated I would have thought they would at the very least known and understood that.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 10:38 AM

FLETCH2


My people were enslaved by the Romans, are Italians responsable for that since they theoretically have some benefits as a result?

What about indentured servants, what about people who worked in exploitive labour conditions? I doubt very much that any modern American benefits in any substantial way from slave labour over a hundred years ago. The question isn't economic or historical, it's day to day abuse and prejustice. It's nothing to do with what people did 200 years ago as what happens now.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 1:09 PM

PIRATEJENNY




now either you don't know anything about the history of your own country, or your trying to be ignorant on purpose!!

which is it?

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Monday, March 24, 2008 1:28 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Dead serious. And what's all this talk about " use to " ? Obama still attends or is a member of Trinity United Church of Christ. And technically speaking , Rev Wright keeps being described as " retired' . He was set to retire " officially " from the church at the end of the month, March 31st. Since all this fuss exploded, he's shipped himself off to Africa, on "sabbatical " , away from prying reporters


Obama has every right to keep Rev Wright as his pastor, why should he denounce him, if thats the case he would have to denounce practically every black person in America, it would be extremely hypocritcal and callous of him to do that when Rev Wright has not done anything wrong.

you might not like what he said or how he said it and its your right to disagree, but he didn't do anything wrong and he certainly hasn't said anything new!!

I'm happy to see that there is at least one politican out there who isn't a complete hypocrite and has some values and standards.


maybe you should heed Obama's words of wisdom, when he said this is all spectle and distraction and if your foolish enough to fall for it next election cycle it will be some other distraction, you do have a choice.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 1:58 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

No I didn’t miss that point either, but you however, have a knack for hypocrisy. First you dismiss the racism of one man because he supports a candidate you sympathize with while condemning another man who doesn’t support that candidate. And now you make personal attacks against me, while accusing me of showing contempt for those who disagree with me. When in fact, I have no contempt at all for you, other then your personal attacks of me.



how do you qualify REV Wright as being a racist, first off he was speaking the truth, secondly black people in America cannot be racist, they can react to racism but they can be prejudice, but racist no. also just because the man is pro black doesn't mean he's against white people, he doesn't own the church and I seriously doubt if they would let a racist preach in their congregation, Rev Wrights mentor happens to be a white man himself. you should really do your research before you make false claims and statements obviously you've been watching to much Fox news and sound bites.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 2:01 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
Quote:

Dead serious. And what's all this talk about " use to " ? Obama still attends or is a member of Trinity United Church of Christ. And technically speaking , Rev Wright keeps being described as " retired' . He was set to retire " officially " from the church at the end of the month, March 31st. Since all this fuss exploded, he's shipped himself off to Africa, on "sabbatical " , away from prying reporters


Obama has every right to keep Rev Wright as his pastor, why should he denounce him, if that's the case he would have to denounce practically every black person in America, it would be extremely hypocritical and callous of him to do that when Rev Wright has not done anything wrong.

you might not like what he said or how he said it and its your right to disagree, but he didn't do anything wrong and he certainly hasn't said anything new!!

I'm happy to see that there is at least one politician out there who isn't a complete hypocrite and has some values and standards.


maybe you should heed Obama's words of wisdom, when he said this is all spectle and distraction and if your foolish enough to fall for it next election cycle it will be some other distraction, you do have a choice.



I agree with you, if Obama's the man he claims to be, it would be "hypocritical and callous of him" to condemn his mentor/pastor of 20 years(or is it 15 now). The only problem is that if Obama embraces Rev. Wright, the superdelegates in the Democrat party will give the nomination to Clinton. Then all those enthusiastic blacks and young people will stay home on election day, giving McCain the White House. Obama needs to decide pretty quick if he really wants to be President or is standing by his pastor/mentor more important. If he does want the Presidency he better throw Wright under the bus now and try to salvage whats left of his campaign. His poll numbers are dropping fast so he better decide quick.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 2:09 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
??? He has spoken at length about his Christian faith, his love of the United States, his commitment to community, etc. He wrote a book on what he believes called The Audacity of Hope.



i havent read his book, i doubt more then a fraction of the population has. maybe, rather then read a book to find out a presidential candidates real views, they could just address them up front, especially in light of a media circus event such as this. given that a lot of liberals have a sort of resentment for American capitalism, in my mind, finding the motivation to read Obamas book is akin to reading Quigleys tragedy and hope, or some other socialist writing(not at the top of my priority list in other words). maybe im a bit of a purest, and skeptic, but i have a hard time reconciling socialist principles, with the bible, since the two are antithetical to each other in there truest forms. i am not judging Obama as Gods servant, but as a politician, since his verbage and terminology and phrases strike me as very humanistic at times. have you taken a glance at Obamas policies? i dont believe we are out of line in asking for some clarification

Quote:

So, I don't think the problem is that he's never told us what he believes in. It troubles me no end that people take the soundbites they hear on the news at face value and assume that they can form informed opinions based upon them alone. We bitch constantly about the mainstream media and turn right around and form or oppinions based on their half-truths.


i personally couldnt care less, im not voting for the guy cause hes a socialist, with the same donors as the other two CFR globalists running. the problem is, i dont believe him

and its not cause hes black. actually, his race is only an issue to the democrats, since they nominated the guy! if he were a republican, we'd judge the guy based on his merit and principles... not his minority status and cultural differences




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Monday, March 24, 2008 5:17 PM

HKCAVALIER


Hey antimason,

I was not suggesting that you shoulda read his book (topped the NY Times Best Sellers List, so a bunch of people have read it, btw). I mentioned the book to say, "The guy has even written a book about his beliefs." His beliefs are not hidden. If you cared enough to do 5 minutes of research, you could know all of his beliefs before you make comments that only express your own ignorance of the man. And by research, I simply mean googling some speeches or visiting YouTube for his many public statements about his beliefs. Why do you insist that his beliefs are somehow obscure?

I don't think it's reasonable for you to claim that the man needs to state his beliefs up front when you haven't even been paying attention.

I knew he was a member of a Black Liberation Theology church a year ago. I knew all the stuff folks are making hay with a year ago because the information was readily available then as it is now.

It's not just you, of course. There's this bizarre meme running around the interenet and the mainstream media that Obama is some kind of "man without a past," a "mystery man" which fits snuggly into folks conspiracy theories about him being a "muslim sleeper-cell" or some such utter horseshit. Jeez, this is the internet--just go to wikipedia fer cryin' out loud and get the guy's life story. The guy's written two biographical books, his past is not something the guy is trying to hide ( Aha! He must have written the books BECAUSE he's trying to hide his REAL past! Yeah, that's the ticket! ).
Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
maybe, rather then read a book to find out a presidential candidates real views, they could just address them up front, especially in light of a media circus event such as this.

Honestly, antimason, how would you know if he had or not? Do you assume the mainstream media is gonna tell you? Where are you getting your information about Barack Obama?
Quote:

maybe im a bit of a purest, and skeptic, but i have a hard time reconciling socialist principles, with the bible, since the two are antithetical to each other in there truest forms.
Good grief, nothing in the real world exists "in there truest forms." Not socialism, not capitalism, not christianity.
Quote:

have you taken a glance at Obamas policies? i dont believe we are out of line in asking for some clarification
Where are you getting your information, from the folks posting on this board?
Quote:

actually, his race is only an issue to the democrats, since they nominated the guy!
More "???" from me on this one. I can't make out what you're trying to say.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 5:33 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:


now either you don't know anything about the history of your own country, or your trying to be ignorant on purpose!!

which is it?



I am not an American, and I know the history of my country, (well a good part of it seeing as where I was born can show human habitation since at least the ice age.)

So either you are one of those people that thinks that only Americans have anything important to say, or you simply forget that this is an international forum.

Which is it?



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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Wacky wacky people... I have to be quick, this post gotta be typed and sent in six minutes.

Things are a bit screwball on my end, and if possible, might actually explain later, maybe.

Anyways, Billary is a cultie too.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/ehrenreich

Which evolved out of THIS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Liberty_League

Which tried to pull THIS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

And her husband shoulda stuck with humpin the interns instead of humping all of us with fuckin NAFTA.

Dude, I could give a fuck if Obama worshipped the devil hisself, I care if the man can do the job he's applyin for and truthfully I don't think he's up to it cause he's too NICE.

Ain't that a shame ?

-F

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:41 PM

PIRATEJENNY




I don't think people will stay home if Hillary gets the nom, nobody really wants to see a rep in office especially now that our country is on the brink of seriously bad economy...

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:41 PM

PIRATEJENNY


double post

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:44 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

I am not an American, and I know the history of my country, (well a good part of it seeing as where I was born can show human habitation since at least the ice age.)

So either you are one of those people that thinks that only Americans have anything important to say, or you simply forget that this is an international forum.

Which is it?




I'm an American and we are talking about America not Rome, your whole post was completely assine. I should have known from that post that your not american know very little about our history...it was pretty obvious from your post that your clueless.

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:49 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Dude, I could give a fuck if Obama worshipped the devil hisself, I care if the man can do the job he's applyin for and truthfully I don't think he's up to it cause he's too NICE.

Ain't that a shame ?



he's either too nice or he's really smart.


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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:19 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
Quote:

I am not an American, and I know the history of my country, (well a good part of it seeing as where I was born can show human habitation since at least the ice age.)

So either you are one of those people that thinks that only Americans have anything important to say, or you simply forget that this is an international forum.

Which is it?




I'm an American and we are talking about America not Rome, your whole post was completely assine. I should have known from that post that your not american know very little about our history...it was pretty obvious from your post that your clueless.



I'd be willing to bet Fletch knows a lot more American history than 90% of Obama's minions. I would sure love to see that debate.

Fletch, sorry to hear about the oppression of your people by the Romans. Have you ever considered seeking reparations.

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 5:32 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Everything Dr Wright preached was true. Even Luciferian Freemasonic preacher and diamond mine owner Pat Robertson agreed that USA was goddamned on 9/11. Dr Ron Paul agreed that US foreign policy only enrages foreigners. Which is exactly what it's designed to do.

US Patent Office agree that HIV/AIDS is a Pentagon/CDC bioweapon to genocide the blacks, and anyone else who volunteers, including my mother-in-law during heart-bypass transfusions. That's what the White House and Congress were up to while the sheeple watched the fake moon landing in July 1969. Even my own medical doctor from Africa told me that.

Congressional Record:

Quote:

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS FOR 1970

HEARINGS BEFORE A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
NINETY-FIRST CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS

H.B. 15090

PART 5
RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT, TEST, AND EVALUATION

Department of the Army
Statement of Director, Advanced Research Project Agency
Statement of Director, Defense Research and Engineering

Printed for the use of the Committee on Appropriations
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1969
UNITED STATES SENATE LIBRARY

[pg.] 129 TUESDAY, JULY 1, 1969

SYNTHETIC BIOLOGICAL AGENTS

There are two things about the biological agent field I would like to mention. One is the possibility of technological surprise. Molecular biology is a field that is advancing very rapidly and eminent biologists believe that within a period of 5 to 10 years it would be possible to produce a synthetic biological agent, an agent that does not naturally exist and for which no natural immunity could have been acquired.

http://killtown.911review.org/aids.html





www.gulfwarvets.com/micopat.htm
www.boydgraves.com
www.aidsbiowar.com

What's disgusting about Obama is how he refused to stand up for the First Amendment ot the US Constitution.

Quote:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.



What's disgusting about Wright is that he runs a govt-partnered state-sponsored church, which is the real reason he was forced to resign or be terminated, since the rich deacons didn't want the Jewish IRS to end its money-laundering contract. IRS 501c3 contract requires chruches to censor their sermons. 30,000 preachers are currently gagged, er, employed by US Dept of Fatherland Security, to sell martial law death camps to the sheeple, just like New Orleans.
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/160807_quell_dissent.htm

Quote:

One day you're gonna tell us how a preacher knows so much about crime.
-Jayne





The Summer Glau Chronicles: Free downloads
http://www.fox.com/fod/player.htm?show=tscc

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:40 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
Quote:

I am not an American, and I know the history of my country, (well a good part of it seeing as where I was born can show human habitation since at least the ice age.)

So either you are one of those people that thinks that only Americans have anything important to say, or you simply forget that this is an international forum.

Which is it?




I'm an American and we are talking about America not Rome, your whole post was completely assine. I should have known from that post that your not american know very little about our history...it was pretty obvious from your post that your clueless.



I probably know more about your history than you do. The point you ignore is that everybody has been "oppressed" by somebody at some point, all you have to do is go back far enough. There are places in eastern Europe where there are still grudges about wars that were fought 500 years ago, Bin Laden is hung up on a Caliphate that ceased to exist 400 years ago.

The moral is clear -- you don't dwell on the past, if you do you make yourself a victim of it. No living American benefited from the effects of slavery, no living American suffers from the effects of slavery. There are a lot of African Americans suffering from things that happen right now, like petty racism and lack of educational opportunity. Those are the things we can fix, so let's not dwell on the past. The point of history is to learn from it, not to use it to excuse behavior and not to guilt trip people who have no responsibility for what their ancestors may, or may not do.



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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:53 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:



I'd be willing to bet Fletch knows a lot more American history than 90% of Obama's minions. I would sure love to see that debate.

Fletch, sorry to hear about the oppression of your people by the Romans. Have you ever considered seeking reparations.



Not really. I suppose we got roads, a written language, sanitation rule of law and other stuff out of it. The point Jenny misses is that bad things happen to everyone at some point. If you really believe that the decedents of folks that did your ancestors down "benefit" from that or are "responsible" then you think like a victim. In the end you fix what you can today.

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