REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Nobel Peace Prize winner Mandela on U.S. Terrorist List

POSTED BY: DEADLOCKVICTIM
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 23:44
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VIEWED: 4509
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Thursday, May 1, 2008 5:51 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


...right up there along-side the Hamburgler and Wil E. Coyote


Quote:

WASHINGTON — Nobel Peace Prize winner and international symbol of freedom Nelson Mandela is flagged on U.S. terrorist watch lists and needs special permission to visit the USA.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-04-30-watchlist_N.htm

somewhere John Ashcroft is smiling....


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Thursday, May 1, 2008 7:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I can see why the Bush regime would label him a terrorist - he was crucial in bringing democracy to South Africa, after all. The last thing Bush wants in the US is a functioning democracy...

So now we've labeled Mandela a terrorist, and we managed to stop the guy who wrote "Peace Train" from getting into the country. I feel soooooo much safer today.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, May 1, 2008 9:08 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM




Quote:

“Naturally the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”



This is a quote I have hanging on the wall behind my desk - where I am sitting now.. I framed a copy not long after the rainbow warnings were popularized by Bush Co - John Ashcroft's baby....

Some of you probably know this or have seen it before. It rings true today.

And for those unfamiliar with the quote - the author is Hermann Goering, member of the Nazi Party, second in command of the Third Reich - speaking at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII


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Thursday, May 1, 2008 9:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Those that aren't stampeded by fear will go in for "righteous" violence. Because in their mind if your cause is just you can use any means possible.

Nice quote DLV.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA


One quick quote before I run out, given to me by a friend over the phone unintentionally.

"We all want peace, but you canno' shake hands with a closed fist, mahn, people need to not be so angry, yah?"

He's got a point.

-F

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Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:44 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I can see why the Bush regime would label him a terrorist - he was crucial in bringing democracy to South Africa, after all. The last thing Bush wants in the US is a functioning democracy...


If by Bush regime you mean George W. Bush, then you are wrong. If you instead mean Jimmy Carter, George HW Bush, and Bill Clinton...then you are correct.

The African National Congress was labled a terrorist group in the late 1970s. Mandella was released in 1990 and elected President in 1994. In between all that Reagan orchestrated a policy that isolated South Africa and brought down their racist government. So to recap, Carter labled him a terrorist and George Bush (41) didn't clear it up when he got out of jail and Clinton (42) deliberately chose to ignore the distinction when he was elected President (after all...the Clinton's would never want to see a black man in a high office).

Since President Bush has done so much for Africa, especially compared to the prior administration, I suspect that this situation can be easily corrected. In fact Condi seems to be on top of making sure that this has little or no effect on the free travel of South Africans to and from the United States.

H

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Thursday, May 1, 2008 12:13 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff says "common sense" suggests Mandela should be removed. He says the issue "raises a troubling and difficult debate about what groups are considered terrorists and which are not."

That is at the heart of the matter. The word "terrorist" is like the word "evil." It is a subjective judgment for people we don't like. All contrivances aside, "terrorist" is simply schoolyard namecalling on the international political stage.

Quote:

Guerrilla activities

In 1961, Mandela became the leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated as MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated a sabotage campaign against military and government targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war if sabotage failed to end apartheid. A few decades later, MK did wage a guerrilla war against the regime, especially during the 1980s, in which many civilians were killed. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad, and arranged for paramilitary training, visiting various African governments.

Mandela explains the move to embark on armed struggle as a last resort, when increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had achieved nothing and could not succeed.[6][2]

Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticised attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela


They could have just as easily labeled this section "Terrorist Activities" instead of "Guerrilla Activities."

Edited to add links:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE1DA123AF932A0575BC
0A965958260

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE1D7113CF935A1575BC
0A967958260


--------------------------
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

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Thursday, May 1, 2008 12:28 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I can see why the Bush regime would label him a terrorist - he was crucial in bringing democracy to South Africa, after all. The last thing Bush wants in the US is a functioning democracy...

So now we've labeled Mandela a terrorist, and we managed to stop the guy who wrote "Peace Train" from getting into the country. I feel soooooo much safer today.

You should. Mandela was the military commander of the ANC and directly responsible for the murder of dozens if not hundreds of innocent people. This issue is often ignored, by Americans because Americans sympathized with the cause of anti-apartheid, much as Americans sympathize with the cause of the IRA in Northern Ireland. This is, however, shortsighted, and American sympathies do not change the horrible things done by the ANC and the IRA. Mandela was a terrorist, by just about any way you slice the pie.

Although Bush had nothing to do with labeling him a terrorist, that was done long ago by those the US and the UK. South Africa was already a democracy. Mandela had nothing to do with that. However, its debatable how much influence he had in bringing an end to apartheid. I suspect far less then he is given credit for since he was in jail through much of it. The real heroes in that struggle was more likely the political and economic sanctions applied to South Africa by the US, UK and other Western nations during the 80s.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, May 1, 2008 12:31 PM

TANKOBITE


Godwin's law FTL. Second post?

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 10:38 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Tankobite:
Godwin's law FTL. Second post?



Nope.

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

A quote from a Nazi doesn't count, mentioning Nazis doesn't count, comparing people to Nazis is the ONLY application of Godwin's Law (though there are corollaries as well). Additionally obviously valid comparisons (comparing Darfur to the Holocaust for instance) also do not trip Godwin's Law.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 11:50 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I can see why the Bush regime would label him a terrorist - he was crucial in bringing democracy to South Africa, after all. The last thing Bush wants in the US is a functioning democracy...


If by Bush regime you mean George W. Bush, then you are wrong. If you instead mean Jimmy Carter, George HW Bush, and Bill Clinton...then you are correct.

The African National Congress was labled a terrorist group in the late 1970s. Mandella was released in 1990 and elected President in 1994. In between all that Reagan orchestrated a policy that isolated South Africa and brought down their racist government. So to recap, Carter labled him a terrorist and George Bush (41) didn't clear it up when he got out of jail and Clinton (42) deliberately chose to ignore the distinction when he was elected President (after all...the Clinton's would never want to see a black man in a high office).

Since President Bush has done so much for Africa, especially compared to the prior administration, I suspect that this situation can be easily corrected. In fact Condi seems to be on top of making sure that this has little or no effect on the free travel of South Africans to and from the United States.

H



I like how you totally skip Reagan not reversing it, either.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 12:02 PM

TANKOBITE


When using it to imply that what " Bush Co - John Ashcroft's baby" are doing is similar to what the Nazis did, it does break Godwin's. It isn't a valid comparison since Bush's term is almost up, there appears to be no popular support for him exceeding it (indeed little popular support period, which is something the Nazis did have-see the Colbert Report's "The Word" on that for a humorous take) and also since "Bush Co" have yet to build government death camps and send minorities there it is invalid and I therefore invoke Godwin.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 2:30 PM

ALLIETHORN7


Meh
It says that quite a few members of Congress see it as an embarresment... ain't we a bit past that point already? I mean, to most every country in the world, we're either a laughing stock, or the so-called "Evil Empire".
Personally, I find labeling Mandella as a terrorist (Which he was) less of a blunder then not finding those WMD's in Iraq.

-Danny

Late night, Brakes lock,
Hear the tires squeal,
Red light, can't stop, so I spin the wheel,
My world goes Black before I
Feel an Angel lift me up,
And I open Bloodshot eyes,
Into fluorescent White,
Flip the Siren, Hit the Lights,
Close the doors and I am Gone

The Band of the week is... Thrice

Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein.
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 2:31 PM

FLETCH2


In 1986 I signed a petition but I still haven't received my free Nelson Mandela...

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 6:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
In 1986 I signed a petition but I still haven't received my free Nelson Mandela...



HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAA

I hear ya. I'm still waiting for my "Free Tibet" - nowhere on the petition did it say "while supplies last"!



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 11:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

"This is a country with which we now have excellent relations, South Africa, but it's frankly a rather embarrassing matter that I still have to waive in my own counterpart, the foreign minister of South Africa, not to mention the great leader Nelson Mandela," Rice said .


Sure do love how them bureaucracies work, eh?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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