REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Scotty McClellan Tells All, Sells Book

POSTED BY: ERIC
UPDATED: Thursday, May 29, 2008 11:49
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1827
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 1:50 PM

ERIC


Too little, far FAR too late, IMO. Too bad he didn't grow a conscience back BEFORE he had a book deal.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10649.html

Quote:

Exclusive: McClellan whacks Bush, White House
By MIKE ALLEN | 5/27/08 6:18 PM EST

Former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan writes in a surprisingly scathing memoir to be published next week that President Bush “veered terribly off course,” was not “open and forthright on Iraq,” and took a “permanent campaign approach” to governing at the expense of candor and competence.

Among the most explosive revelations in the 341-page book, titled “What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington’s Culture of Deception” (Public Affairs, $27.95):

• McClellan charges that Bush relied on “propaganda” to sell the war. Gee, no shit?

• He says the White House press corps was too easy on the administration during the run-up to the war.

• He admits that some of his own assertions from the briefing room podium turned out to be “badly misguided.”

• The longtime Bush loyalist also suggests that two top aides held a secret West Wing meeting to get their story straight about the CIA leak case at a time when federal prosecutors were after them — and McClellan was continuing to defend them despite mounting evidence they had not given him all the facts.

• McClellan asserts that the aides — Karl Rove, the president’s senior adviser, and I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, the vice president’s chief of staff — “had at best misled” him about their role in the disclosure of former CIA operative Valerie Plame’s identity.



Perhaps the most aspect:

Quote:

McClellan repeatedly embraces the rhetoric of Bush's liberal critics and even charges: “If anything, the national press corps was probably too deferential to the White House and to the administration in regard to the most important decision facing the nation during my years in Washington, the choice over whether to go to war in Iraq.

“The collapse of the administration’s rationales for war, which became apparent months after our invasion, should never have come as such a surprise. … In this case, the ‘liberal media’ didn’t live up to its reputation. If it had, the country would have been better served.”



Goddam librulz.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 4:22 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Eric:
Too little, far FAR too late, IMO. Too bad he didn't grow a conscience back BEFORE he had a book deal.



It doesn't bother me that this dip-shit would try and make a quick buck by trashing Bush. I mean, I don't think a book praising Bush's leadership skills would sell very good right now. What erks me is that Bush kept this no talent jerk around for so long out of loyalty and this is how he's repaid. This dude was a liability to the Bush administration all along, I just wish Bush would have fired him and brought in Tony Snow earlier.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 1:46 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Wouldn't you know it - all those ex-Bush appointees end up trashing Bush - from ex-Sec Tres Paul O'Neill to Colin Powell to Ari Fleischer and the many in-betweens.

Yeah, Bush sure knows how to pick 'em.

***************************************************************

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:26 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Wouldn't you know it - all those ex-Bush appointees end up trashing Bush - from ex-Sec Tres Paul O'Neill to Colin Powell to Ari Fleischer and the many in-betweens.

Yeah, Bush sure knows how to pick 'em.


Clinton faced the same thing towards the end and after his term. Its tradition.

Their goal is to sell their book, not necessarily to tell the truth.

This fella has no real future ahead of him. He was so dramtically upstaged by Tony Snow that he comes across as a miserable failure when in fact he was not really good or bad...just average. Never the less to salvage something of a legacy, some book sales, and some speaking engagements he is forced to write this kind of book whose target audience is the realm of Bush-haters and liberals who already believe this is what was happening. I note he offers little proof and no real insight into what was going on. If anything this book is about how little he knew and when he didn't know it.

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yeah, all those scumbags out to make Bush look bad... Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Petraeus, Bush - they're all a bunch of traitorous scum, and they should be ashamed of how they're piling on and making Bush look like a dipshit!



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:28 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Wouldn't you know it - all those ex-Bush appointees end up trashing Bush...




but, there is just SO much to trash -

plenty for everyone!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:42 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM



It must run in the family. If you'll remember, Scotty dogs dad, Barr, wrote a rather unflattering book about his former employer - Lyndon Baines Johnson.... Blood, Money & Power: How LBJ Killed JFK* in 2003....

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:23 AM

ERIC


What I don't get is the article says he's on 'the lecture circuit.' What the frak does this guy have to lecture about, and who wants to hear him???

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


A lot of generals, some Cabinet-level staff (Clarke, O'Neil) and several underlings left the WH mid-career and said the same things about Bush. So what do you say about them? They were lying?

I have no respect for McClellan waiting so long. But that doesn't mean that he isn't telling the truth. You'll notice that the current WH residents sniffingly call McClellan unprofessional. They are puzzled and sad. They say Scott is disgruntled,self-serving, disingenuous, that McClellan sounds like a left-wing {b}logger.

But you'll also notice none of the Bush loyalists are saying that the book is untrue. Scott most likely has memos, tapes, etc. from his years at the WH and can back up everything he says.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:07 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM



It's called "cashing in". A very popular ploy used by those who claim that all they want to do is serve the country - do all they can to do what's best for the American people, when in fact, all they want is a lucrative book deal. I suspect we will see others.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:16 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Unfortunately mnay people (especially those still loyal to Bush) will confuse McClellan's motivation for writing the book with the contents of the book itself. But less-than honorable motivations don't descredit what he wrote, which is pretty much what many have been saying all along: BUSH LIED

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:41 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

It's called "cashing in". A very popular ploy used by those who claim that all they want to do is serve the country - do all they can to do what's best for the American people, when in fact, all they want is a lucrative book deal. I suspect we will see others.


Including Bush himself. According to him, one of his primary goals after his Presidency is to "refill the ol' coffers" with lucrative speaking deals.

So is he "cashing in", too?

It's funny to see how many people, who just LOVED li'l Scotty back in the day, turn on him so rapidly now, claiming they've always hated him, and he's always been the enemy, and that the man whose job it was to make Bush look GOOD is now only trying to make him look BAD. It's as if they don't even remember what they were told to believe the day before yesterday, when Scotty was beloved.

If Snow-Job comes out with a book tomorrow that further discredits the Administration and Bush, then HE'LL have always been the enemy, and was never any good at his job in the first place. Just keep moving the goalposts, and maybe no one will notice that you dropped the ball several years back...

Orwellislaughingisall,



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:52 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Scott most likely has memos, tapes, etc. from his years at the WH and can back up everything he says.



It would be interesting to see if anything he might have could be used in a court of law to bring the criminals..... I mean, administration to trial to answer for illegal activities during the run-up to the war - or in the Plame case..... but I guess that's all been hashed out - no one seems to want to step up and call these guys on all their dubious and nefarious experiments in creative governing.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:12 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
A lot of generals, some Cabinet-level staff (Clarke, O'Neil) and several underlings left the WH mid-career and said the same things about Bush. So what do you say about them? They were lying?


Who? Clark and O'Neil? Can't speak about everyone...but yes those two were lying.

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Clark and O'Neil? Can't speak about everyone...but yes those two were lying.
Prove it.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:16 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
... Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Petraeus, Bush - they're all a bunch of traitorous scum
Mike


Gen Petraeus is now "traitorous scum"?

What does that make you?

You write something like that, and all you do is show the world your own ignorant hatred.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:26 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Sworn to defend the constitution and instead ripping it to shreds for personal and political gain at every opportunity. Yeah, they're traitors.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

... Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Petraeus, Bush - they're all a bunch of traitorous scum

Mike



Gen Petraeus is now "traitorous scum"?



What does that make you?



You write something like that, and all you do is show the world your own ignorant hatred.








You write something like that, and all you do is show the world you own hateful ignorance and your willful stupidity. Jeezus, I don't know if you're mentally retarded, or if your mommy just doesn't realize that you got your hands on the keyboard again. Anyone with half an ounce of comprehension could plainly see the sercasm and satire that was so blatantly obvious in my post. You OBVIOUSLY - and quite willingly - missed the part where I used sarcasm (I always forget - retards... er - REPUBLICANS... don't understand sarcasm or satire) to imply that anyone who disagrees with the Bush Administration is instantly branded BY THE RIGHT as traitorous scum (see Kirk's reaction to the original post for a perfect example). Personally, I think Petraeus is a hero, doing a hero's job, in an unbelievably shitty situation, and with precious little backup or support (other than of the "you're doing a heckuva job, Brownie" verbal kind) from the White House or the Pentagon, and their petty little beancounters who have been trying since day one to fight this war on the cheap at any and every turn, telling us we don't need personal protection, we don't need hardened vehicles, we don't need better weaponry, etc, etc.

Petraeus is the guy who wrote the counterinsurgency manual for the Army, and who was then forced to keep revising his numbers downward until they met what the Pentagon was willing to spend on this horrible abortion of a war.

And the day Petraeus comes out and says he got fucked in the ass by the Pentagon and the White House, he'll be branded "traitorous" by the likes of Hero, AwwCrapper, Finn, and you. Anyone who dares to commit the "sin" of truth against this White House is un-American, in your view, regardless of the truth of their message. You lot are so far into the "my country right or wrong" mindset that if you were shown full-blown US-controlled concentration camps with millions of starving prisoners, you'd try to convince us that we were only really "fat camps" trying to help them become less obese.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 2:47 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

It's funny to see how many people, who just LOVED li'l Scotty back in the day, turn on him so rapidly now, claiming they've always hated him, and he's always been the enemy, and that the man whose job it was to make Bush look GOOD is now only trying to make him look BAD. It's as if they don't even remember what they were told to believe the day before yesterday, when Scotty was beloved.



Kwicko, I realise that ninety percent of the BS you come up with is pulled strait out of your ass , but this is one of your stupidest statements yet. I have never heard anyone in the media or in politics ever say they thought Mcclellan was a good press secretary, and I have certainly have never said so. In fact all have said the opposite, requiring President Bush to come to his defense on more than one occasion. President Bush is loyal to a fault when it comes to his staff, and you would think it might be reciprocated by this no talent jerk. The other thing no one seems to consider is that he was Press Secretary, hardly in a position to see the policy decision making process first hand.

Your comments are so consistently idiotic, I sometimes wonder if your not really a conservative republican trying to make all liberals look stupid. If so, keep up the good work.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:14 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And yet McClellan lasted longer than any of them.

So you gotta say this about Bush - he sure knows how to pick 'em - and he's loyal to a fault, sticking with the bad ones far, far longer than any others. (not) (I mean seriously - doesn't this give you pause about Bush's judgement ? And it occurred to me - McClellan may be signallng he's willing to testify in any trials that may be coming up.)

Lawrence Ari Fleischer (born October 13, 1960) was the press secretary for U.S. President George W. Bush from January, 2001 to July, 2003.

Scott McClellan (born February 14, 1968) is a former White House Press Secretary (2003-2006) for President George W. Bush.

Tony Snow 26th White House Press Secretary In office May 8, 2006 – September 14, 2007.

Dana Marie Perino (born May 9, 1972) is the current White House Press Secretary for President George W. Bush, having taken over the position on September 14, 2007.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

It's funny to see how many people, who just LOVED li'l Scotty back in the day, turn on him so rapidly now, claiming they've always hated him, and he's always been the enemy, and that the man whose job it was to make Bush look GOOD is now only trying to make him look BAD. It's as if they don't even remember what they were told to believe the day before yesterday, when Scotty was beloved.



Kwicko, I realise that ninety percent of the BS you come up with is pulled strait out of your ass , but this is one of your stupidest statements yet. I have never heard anyone in the media or in politics ever say they thought Mcclellan was a good press secretary, and I have certainly have never said so. In fact all have said the opposite, requiring President Bush to come to his defense on more than one occasion. President Bush is loyal to a fault when it comes to his staff, and you would think it might be reciprocated by this no talent jerk. The other thing no one seems to consider is that he was Press Secretary, hardly in a position to see the policy decision making process first hand.

Your comments are so consistently idiotic, I sometimes wonder if your not really a conservative republican trying to make all liberals look stupid. If so, keep up the good work.



Wait a minute - so you're saying that McClellan WASN'T loved? Then either you're lying, or your beloved president was lying, when he had this to say at Scotty's resignation:

Quote:


BUSH: I, first of all, I thank Scott for his service to our country. I don't know whether or not the press corps realizes this, but his is a challenging assignment dealing with you all on a regular basis. And I thought he handled his assignment with class, integrity. He really represents, you know, the best of his family, our state and our country.
It's going to be hard to replace Scott. But nevertheless, he's made the decision, and I accept it.
One of these days, he and I are going to be rocking in chairs in Texas talking about the good old days of his time as the press secretary. And I can assure you, I will feel the same way then that I feel now, that I can say to Scott, job well done.
MCCLELLAN: Thank you, sir.
BUSH: You bet. Appreciate you.



Now, keep in mind that McClellan didn't just work for Bush as his press secretary - he'd been with him way back in the days when Bush was the Governor of Texas, too, and had run his mother's (Carole Keeton Rylander Strayhorn) THREE state campaigns as well.

So, it appears that you're the one pulling it straight out of your ass, Jerkules. Your comments are so consistently idiotic that I sometimes wonder if you're not actually a conservative republican bent on proving just how stupid conservatives and republicans can actually be. And you've proven it, time and time again...





Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Mike, I don't know who you are. But I like your style!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:03 PM

FLETCH2


I thought Fleischer was better, he worked the room in a very polished way. Scott seemed a little light weight and Tony Snow had that slimy Fox Newsness about him still. I haven't seen much of the new girl.

What's interesting isn't that he wrote a book -- lots of political types do -- but that it's being released while Bush is still in office rather than 3-5 years later as is SOP.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 3:11 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Tony Snow 26th White House Press Secretary In office May 8, 2006 – September 14, 2007.



speaking of Snow.... ever notice the resemblance to this guy....?



eerie....

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 4:17 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
speaking of Snow.... ever notice the resemblance to this guy....?


Yeah, but thats after cancer has thinned out his face and hair. I used to watch him on FOX and he looked a lot different.

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:53 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


I'm with the righties on this one. The man has no personal integrity, and zero credibility.

Want proof? He worked for Bush for over a decade. Without delivering smoking gun evidence, he's still a machiavelian prick looking out for himself, distancing himself from bad policy he helped to sell, cashing in on a book that only tells us what we already knew.

We'll se what he says if he gets suppoenad.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 6:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


But there were people ahead of McClellan who quit or lost their WH jobs who said the same thing, and that includes about a half-dozen generals plus Richard Clarke and Scy Treasury Paul O'Neill (plus the anonymous transom informant). Hero says that THOSE people "lied" too. So Hero, I noticed you never DID prove your statement. I'll bet you don't even know what Clarke and ONeill said, do ya now?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But there were people ahead of McClellan who quit or lost their WH jobs who said the same thing, and that includes about a half-dozen generals plus Richard Clarke and Scy Treasury Paul O'Neill (plus the anonymous transom informant). Hero says that THOSE people "lied" too. So Hero, I noticed you never DID prove your statement. I'll bet you don't even know what Clarke and ONeill said, do ya now?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.



Funny... Seems like Bush has completely surrounded himself with liars, yes-men, and syncophants. THEY are the ones who lied, any and every time, NOT Bush... Oh no, never Bush. You have to ask yourself, if he's so willing to hire known liars and keep them in his employ (Scooter Libby, anyone?), then how on earth can you be so sure than HE has "never lied", as many of those on the right constantly claim? Either he's a liar, or he's a horrible judge of character, or he's utterly clueless - which is it? None of them are good diagnoses...



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:54 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


Don't get me wrong, I think what he's saying now is closer to the truth...he's just not a very reliable source.

As to the generals who retired. They retired so that they could speak out, presumably taking integrity over a steady pay-check.

Those who got fired or were forced out did so because htey didn't play ball right with the admin, and that also could account for standing up for what they believed in...

....
retiring on "good" terms rather than being honest when he could have, prevents Scotty from elevating to their level of service to the nation. Heh...I won't be buying the book.

However, I look forward to the hearings.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 8:04 AM

FLETCH2


The nature of cabinet politics is that once a policy is decided those who are part of the cabinet usually feel obligated to sell and defend the policy even if they don't completely agree with it. Yes you can resign on principle if the arguments don't go your way, but few career politicians will do that. Even folks with more integrity may be inclined to try and influence events from inside the administration than to go outside and cause problems. That is especially true in war time.

We will get into a horrid argument again but the big fallacy that keeps being touted here is that at any point X in the timeline there is an obviously right and an obviously wrong answer. This belief means that looking back selecting the "wrong" answer is seen as being self serving, stupid, deceatfull or some combination. By extension that reasoning tars anyone associated with that decision the same way.

In truth things are seldom that clear cut. People can make flawed decisions based on their own biases and still absolutely believe that they were making the best decision.

Tunnel vision can mean that folks continue down lines of thought that less invested observers can see are bogus. That doesn't mean that they knowingly lied, it means they deceived themselves and then sold that delusion to others.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 8:23 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Clark and O'Neil? Can't speak about everyone...but yes those two were lying.

Prove it.


I'm pretty sure there's video on youtube...so you can see their lips moving...

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 8:36 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

We will get into a horrid argument again but the big fallacy that keeps being touted here is that at any point X in the timeline there is an obviously right and an obviously wrong answer.


I disagree, vehemently, and here's why:

Before the Iraq invasion, during the run-up to the war, I and several milllion other patriotic Americans tried to make our views known about Iraq and how much of a bad idea an invasion and occupation was. We knew at that point in time that there was an obviously right answer and an obviously wrong answer, and rather than being listened to, we were shouted down, told to get the hell out of America if we hated our country so much, and told that we should be shot as traitors for not supporting what was so obvious to everyone else.

Now, I'm told that by being right, and saying so, I'm simply "self-congratulating" and "back-patting". No, it's just that we were RIGHT, and they were WRONG. Obviously. So instead of owning it and saying they fucked up, they play the stupid little corporate HR bullshit game of "well, mistakes happen, and it's not anybody's fault." Bull fucking shit; it's the fault of those who fought most rabidly to hurry up and launch their dirty little war, and I don't aim to let them play it off as "nobody's fault" and "no obvious right or wrong answer", because there WAS an obvious right and wrong answer in this case, and those who supported the occupation of Iraq were, and are, obviously wrong.

It reminds me of Rumsfeld, standing there saying, "Well, no one could have foreseen this..." Yeah - except for the millions of us who foresaw it and tried to warn our government about it! Fuck him. The blood of countless thousands are on his hands, and those who were with him.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 11:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Clark and O'Neil? Can't speak about everyone...but yes those two were lying.

Prove it.


I'm pretty sure there's video on youtube...so you can see their lips moving...

H



Okay, I realize that's how you tell BUSH is lying, but how do you prove Clarke and O'Neill were lying? The only "proof" you've ever offered is that they disagreed with Bush. Last time I checked, that didn't exactly equal a lie, nor is it a crime. At least, not yet.

So far, the Administration and its tiny core of ardent supporters has labelled Libby, Armitage, Judith Miller, Novak, Wolfowitz, Clarke, O'Neill, Rumsfeld, McCain, Gonzalez, Ridge, Ashcroft, Fleischer, McClellan, Shenseki, and a host of others as "liars" and "disgruntled". Tell me, is there anyone there who ISN'T a liar, or have they just not disagreed with the emporer quite enough yet to earn that label?

Bush is a liar. Always has been, always will be. It's proven. It's undeniable fact.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 29, 2008 11:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


Bush is a liar. Always has been, always will be. It's proven. It's undeniable fact.


This whole thread is unnecessary. Righties that voted for and still support Bush cannot digest the truth about their 'guy'. Religions can be endlessly debated, but never fully denied or cast out.
There ARE WMD- we just can't find them.
Bush IS smart, you just can't see it.
The Iraq WAS necessary, you just have to have faith.
Every bad thing spoken about Bush is actually Satan's work.



Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Elections; 2024
Thu, March 28, 2024 21:07 - 2072 posts
Biden
Thu, March 28, 2024 21:04 - 852 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Thu, March 28, 2024 21:02 - 54 posts
China
Thu, March 28, 2024 20:53 - 446 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 17:24 - 3413 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 17:20 - 6155 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Thu, March 28, 2024 16:32 - 9 posts
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Thu, March 28, 2024 12:44 - 1 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL