REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Screw 'em if they hate us

POSTED BY: 6IXSTRINGJACK
UPDATED: Monday, June 30, 2008 23:13
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VIEWED: 12074
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Saturday, June 14, 2008 4:33 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm sick...

I'm tired...

And to quote Ozzy, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired...

Don't hate on America people. Especially if you live here. We've got our problems, and I agree they must be tended to sooner than later, but our history is of that of a Nation who has been the freest of any who has ever lived in recorded history.

Most of them haters are just hypocrites that have just been jealous for eons of our wealth, prosperity, inginuity and general dominance over the world (eons as in a blink of an eye in time if you're a backer of the Big Bang Theory). Look at all of them who weren't modernized 50 years ago scramble to learn Basic English and modernize themselves in 15 years what it took hundereds to develop here.

Everybody hates 'mericans but nobody wants to be 'merican, know what I'm sayin'?

America.... You've come a long way baby.

Don't let the haters get you down.

~6sJ

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 5:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


That's pretty sad, 6ix. They hate us because they're jealous?

Oh, right.

They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system.

Sheesh! As if they don't have their own democracies!

What you need to do, 6ix, is go visit other nations, particularly Europe... but Canada will do. Just see how seething they are with jealousy. Pick up on the vibes of their "Oh how I wish I was in the USA!" as they have lunch at streetside cafes and talk with friends. Look around and see how miserable they are in their low-crime cities and parks! Absorb their underlying anxiety about health care, and notice their basic fear of strangers.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 6:24 AM

SIMONWHO


I've never quite understood why Americans think themselves the freest nation on the planet. It's probably the Netherlands or another small European country - their citizens are trusted to be free and take responsibility for their own lives and there's no phony war on drugs nor religious masses oppressing anyone who differs from Judeo-Christian paths.

You're not even the freest nation in North America.

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 6:44 AM

CHRISISALL


You got it Simon. But it comforts us to believe the fantasy.

isall

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 6:48 AM

MAL4PREZ


"inginuity" *snort*

Who's scrambling to learn basic English?

Cheers,
mal-mysuperioritycomplexisbiggerthanyours-4prez

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 7:08 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



um...

where we've been ahead, kudos to us. We created a robust, almost failsafe republic with enough checks and balances that even today under great strain, it looks like we have not permanently lost our democracy.

Kudos to the founding fathers who built a better system on the backs of other systems. Kudos to them for taking religion out of it, another failsafe that has often been under attack.

But in the big picture, it hasn't all been roses. We were late to the game of abolishing slavery, we were late to the game of giving blacks equal rights.


If you look at our status in the world today, we have the highest incarceration rate, and the highest prison population in the world, and just so that this doesn't get confused as being a case of humanitarianism, countries such as germany which have no death penalty come in far under us in this category.

We come in at like 47th or something on the freedom index for press,

we have one of the highest infant mortality rates of developed nations,

............
I have to go to work..so I'll continue this later.

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 7:23 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:



We come in at like 47th or something on the freedom index for press,



Not that I don't generally agree with you-- America is a pretty good, but not perfect, place. The guy who wrote the Preamble to the Constitution called for a " more perfect union"-- wasn't then, isn't now; and that's the goal we ought to be keeping our eye on and working toward.

But I'd like to see some substantiation for that rating of 47th on freedom of the press. I could readily accept not in the top 10, maybe, but out of, what, 150 nations recognized by the UN, not that we're 1/3 of the way down.

Who , exactly, rated us as that low, and what was their methodology?

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:54 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


[delurk]

On the 2007 Worldwide Press Freedom Index, Reporters Without Borders rated the U.S. 48th out of 169 countries:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025

The method for investigation is a 50-item questionaire:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24046

More on how the index was compiled:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24027

[/delurk]

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:00 AM

RALLEM


I don't think there is any real study of our freedom of the press and I also think we are rated low whenever there is a Republican President just to make that office look bad.



http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:07 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Actually, the U.S. was ranked 17th in 2002, and 22nd in 2004:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116 (2002)
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715 (2004)

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:23 AM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
Actually, the U.S. was ranked 17th in 2002, and 22nd in 2004:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116 (2002)
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715 (2004)



Your point is what?



http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:26 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
America.... You've come a long way baby.

Don't let the haters get you down.



I have to agree on the face of it. But most of the people I see getting labeled 'America Haters', aren't that at all. They're people standing up against corrupt leadership that doesn't have a clue what being American means in the first place. Doing that, in the face all the lambasting and demagoguery that will inevitably result, is about the most patriotic thing I can think of.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:27 AM

SERGEANTX


*doublepost gremlin*

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
Actually, the U.S. was ranked 17th in 2002, and 22nd in 2004:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116 (2002)
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715 (2004)



Pressies just hate Bush, is all.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:16 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
I don't think there is any real study of our freedom of the press and I also think we are rated low whenever there is a Republican President just to make that office look bad.

How on Earth can Republicans control most of the American media, spend most of the time controlling the US Government, and yet still have a colossal victim complex? Is this some sort of undiscovered mental illness?
Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
Your point is what?

Well I imagine his point was that: the US not being rock bottom every time this list was compiled during the Bush presidency, pretty much refutes your silly assertion?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:49 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system.



At least you're consistant. Any time anyone says anything less than disparaging about the US you gotta jump up with your litany of horrors. I don't believe that I have ever seen you post anything at all positive about your country.

Admit it, Siggy. You're the hater.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 11:02 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Thanx, Yin. I am a little confused by the 2 posts, and 2 different ratings, only 15 min. apart.And as I suggested, I could buy not in the Top Ten-- which makes 17th or 22nd reasonable, but not 47th. And I was pretty close , off the top of my head, with 150 nations instead of 169-- I guess-timated closer than I thought I could. Gonna hafta look at all the links you provided and see if I agree or not.

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 11:05 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

At least you're consistant. Any time anyone says anything less than disparaging about the US you gotta jump up with your litany of horrors. I don't believe that I have ever seen you post anything at all positive about your country.

Admit it, Siggy. You're the hater.




Yah, because if you're not 100% for America you're just "hating" on America, right? God forbid someone would point out many of the tragic horrors that go on in the USA on a daily basis. That would inject some sort of reality into the discussion.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 11:11 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Thanx, Yin. I am a little confused by the 2 posts, and 2 different ratings, only 15 min. apart.And as I suggested, I could buy not in the Top Ten-- which makes 17th or 22nd reasonable, but not 47th. And I was pretty close , off the top of my head, with 150 nations instead of 169-- I guess-timated closer than I thought I could. Gonna hafta look at all the links you provided and see if I agree or not.




You don't even need to do that. All you have to do is look at the news media in the US and then compare the coverage from the BBC or Spiegel ( http://www.spiegel.de/international/). Just give it a week. You'll be very very surprised with the profound lack of journalism that is in your country.

In fact, when I lived in the US I found that MTV News provided better journalism than any of the major networks. It was shocking to discover that. I wonder if that's changed and MTV News is just as bad.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 12:18 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Yah, because if you're not 100% for America you're just "hating" on America, right? God forbid someone would point out many of the tragic horrors that go on in the USA on a daily basis.



If Siggy ever did anything but point out (and often exaggerate) things that aren't right in the US, I'd consider her just like anyone else. There's good and bad here to be noted. But she's 100% critical of everything about the US, or at least has never mentioned a positive. I'd say that qualifies as hating.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 12:20 PM

RIGHTEOUS9




Other cutting edge acheivements -

free education for the public,

dilineating freedom of the press in the bill of rights

Both of these are significant contributors to the sustainability of our democracy.

I'm proud that we were on the cutting edge of these things, that we pushed these boundaries, and that we were leaders for the rest of the world to emulate...

but we can't sit on our asses and just continue to parrot "we're still the best country in the world in just about every way," without making sure that it is so.

First, that requires being inquisitive about the very premise.

Second, that requires being critical of ourselves if we are falling short of the mark., saying so if we've become feet dragging followers rather than leaders.

To do the opposite is not patriotic, because in order to be patriotic you have to try to preserve the ideals that this nation was founded on. You have to believe in the constitution and the bill of rights.

Attacking the critics of our nation simply because they have criticisms of it, or because they have bad things to say about what America has done or is doing, is not being patriotic, it's being nationalistic, and that is trite.

It's the same old universal brand that can be applied to any country, at any point in history, and it is never pretty.

American patriotism is the choicer philosophy.

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 1:29 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
First, that requires being inquisitive about the very premise.

Second, that requires being critical of ourselves if we are falling short of the mark., saying so if we've become feet dragging followers rather than leaders.

To do the opposite is not patriotic, because in order to be patriotic you have to try to preserve the ideals that this nation was founded on. You have to believe in the constitution and the bill of rights.



I got no argument with that. I have problems with some of what goes on here as well.

But folks who are unremittingly, stridently critical of everything that happens in and relating to the US, who never have a positive thing to say about the country, and who insult and demean anyone who thinks that, with all its faults, it's a pretty good place, aren't helping to improve anything. They really are just hating, and add nothing positive to a search for solutions to the problems.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 1:42 PM

RALLEM

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 3:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

How on Earth can Republicans control most of the American media, spend most of the time controlling the US Government, and yet still have a colossal victim complex? Is this some sort of undiscovered mental illness?
The same way we can have our military bootprint all over the world, our soldiers in many countries and yet STILL feel like we're "being attacked".
And yes, it is a mental illness.


---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 4:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

How on Earth can Republicans control most of the American media, spend most of the time controlling the US Government, and yet still have a colossal victim complex? Is this some sort of undiscovered mental illness?


Umm, the GOP controls nary any of the media, and its the Democrats who control both Congress and Senate. What civics courses you took which some how states a party only owning 1/3 of the 3 branches of Government is somehow in control of that Gov....is beyond me.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 5:57 PM

PIRATECAT


I don't just love America I am im Love with AMERICA. Making out with a spanish girl in Virginia Beach, making out with a asian chic in Redondo Beach, checking out the sunsets in the Badlands of South Dakota and eaten bread pudden down in Na Orlans. Look I had a terrible childhood [as two violins play in the background] but you get to work and build your life. Europa everybody sits around in cafes whinning about us because their lives are crap. If they had jobs they could be productive. Two world wars that they started has left their goverments planning everything in their miserable soccer lives. Goverment took control after ww2 and now has to solve everything. The commies used the epic movie "Grapes of Wrath" to show how terrible Amercia is. Guess what happened the poor Russian people question why do they have cars to get around in. So it ain't that bad. Yes their is shortages of food in the US. The other day my favorite hoagie shop ran out of pepper jack. Thank the heavens and George Bush for stocking up on Swiss, Cheddar, Provalone, and God Bless American. Later Gators PC!

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If Siggy ever did anything but point out (and often exaggerate) things that aren't right in the US, I'd consider her just like anyone else. There's good and bad here to be noted. But she's 100% critical of everything about the US, or at least has never mentioned a positive. I'd say that qualifies as hating.
Geezer, can you even envision for a moment a LITTLE bit of air between "the United States" and "capitalism"? Or are they synonymous in your mind?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:44 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Umm, the GOP controls nary any of the media, and its the Democrats who control both Congress and Senate. What civics courses you took which some how states a party only owning 1/3 of the 3 branches of Government is somehow in control of that Gov....is beyond me.

Well, the media thing goes round in circles, I've presented numerous arguments as to why the American media is largely Republican controlled, not just indirectly as to who actually owns it, but directly as to how and what they report. In turn you've argued that they're Democrat controlled because they just are, which is not an argument I find compelling. Frankly at this moment my stance on the affiliation of the American media is much stronger and better supported than yours, even if I do say so myself. I'm not saying I'm defiantly right, just that my position has been proved to a more substantial degree than yours.

Secondly, I said most of the time, AU. I'm talking trends and historically, you're pointing at the present situation where Democrats have been voted in, after more and more disastrous Republican policies. The current situation doesn't refute the trend, and the Republicans have been in complete control of the Government for the most of the last decade. The Republicans are in control of the house of representatives and the presidency far more often than they are not, which is basically what I said, and that assertion is not refuted by saying "not at the moment they're not!". How you can think it does is also beyond me .

Look up the voting record and prove me wrong. Prove that Republicans don't spend more time in power. If you find they do, you'll have to admit that saying they're 'minority victims' of 'left whatever' is completely ridiculous, because it's hard to see how those who hold power can be 'minority victims' in any stretch of the phrase. I rather suspect that convincing themselves and more besides that they are victims, is one of the most potent weapons in the Republican arsenal. It means, for instance, that the Republicans can control the US media, make the opposition look bad and themselves look good, and any bad press of the Republicans that gets through can be diminished, because of the Liberal Bias, and any criticism of the Democrats amplified because it made it through that bias, so it must be sooo much worse than they say.

It really is a fantastic weapon in their arsenal, and I suspect has much to do with the control they tend to exert.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:22 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Yep.... no surprises here.

People posted exactly what I thought they would post in here. You've got your crazies that hate America , particularly the ones who live here because it's not the Utopia they thought it was growing up. And you got your crazies who are so Nationalistic that they are blind to all of the injustices that we are allowing our government do to foreign countries and its own people. Then of course you've got the people who never post in here but because they either don't like me or don't like my opinions they need to make jokes about my spelling being Basic English...

Then there is the ray of hope.... your thinking people who appreciate just how great they have it, or at the very least the potential for how great they could have it if we restored the checks and balances that once made this nation great.

It's really sad though. Most of you are so anti American it makes me sick. And of the ones who aren't, many back a system that is so misrepresenting what we are supposed to be that you just give the haters the fuel they need to keep on hating.

Go ahead. Throw it away. Keep hating yourself and your country and just keep whining. You armchair warriors. You, who don't deserve the freedoms that you do have and deserve to have the ones that are left stripped away from you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:42 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


citizen, how you continue to get some things constantly wrong is beyond me. I never said that the media is biased " just because they are ", but because the studies support that conclusion!


Washington Bureau Chiefs and Correspondents

In April 1996, the Freedom Forum published a report by Chicago Tribune writer Elaine Povich titled, “Partners and Adversaries: The Contentious Connection Between Congress and the Media.” Buried in Appendix D was the real news for those concerned about media bias: Based on the 139 Washington bureau chiefs and congressional correspondents who returned the Freedom Forum questionnaire, the Washington-based reporters — by an incredible margin of nine-to-one — overwhelmingly cast their presidential ballots in 1992 for Democrat Bill Clinton over Republican incumbent George Bush.


http://www.mediaresearch.org/biasbasics/biasbasics3.asp


You continue to falsly assume that, because some one owns a radio or t.v. network, and they might be conservative, they MUST dictate how the news gets reported. CLEARLY, the evidence does not support that claim.


Quote:

The Republicans are in control of the house of representatives and the presidency far more often than they are not, which is basically what I said, and that assertion is not refuted by saying "not at the moment they're not!". How you can think it does is also beyond me


Well, I'll give you half credit on this one. True, the GOP has sat in the Oval Office much more than the Democrats. But as for the House of Representatives ?? Another lesson begins.....

The Democratic Party dominated the House of Representatives during the administration of President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1933–1945), often winning over two-thirds of the seats. Both Democrats and Republicans were in power at various times during the next decade. The Democratic Party maintained control of the House from 1954 until 1995. ( That's 40 yrs )The Republicans took control of the House in 1995, under the leadership of Speaker Newt Gingrich. The Republicans would hold on to the House until the United States Congressional elections, 2006, during which the Democrats won back control of both the House of Representatives and, narrowly, the Senate.

You've been proven wrong. Sorry.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:24 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, can you even envision for a moment a LITTLE bit of air between "the United States" and "capitalism"? Or are they synonymous in your mind?



In at least one respect they are synonymous. You never have anything good to say about either.

I can only go on what I see here in RWED, but all I see from you is someone who spouts unremitting vitriol against the US, and at anyone who does not agree with 100% of your opinions about it. You don't look for compromise or solutions, don't consider that anyone else can have a valid point of view that differs from yours, and go out of your way to antagonise any one who disagrees with you.

If I've missed some thread where you say "well, I actually like this particular thing about the people or government of the US." please point it out to me.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:51 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
You continue to falsly assume that, because some one owns a radio or t.v. network, and they might be conservative, they MUST dictate how the news gets reported. CLEARLY, the evidence does not support that claim.

No, you falsely assume that A reporters personal political opinion has some bearing on what they can report, when clearly the evidence, that what the news outlets actually report and how they do so refutes that claim. It's just plain silly, you're assertion is essentially that the secretary on the front desk has more bearing on company policy and output than the CEO. The guy at the top makes the policy, the guy at the top decides what leaves his newsroom, not the cogs in the machine. If the head of the organisation is a Republican, and their interests are best served by Republicans, they're going to support Republicans. The organisations policy will be to support Republicans. The individual Journalists could politically support anyone they like, but if they're reporting doesn't tow the line of the organisations policy, it won't be reported. That's what editors are for. It's just plain silly to suggest that journalists have more power than editors.

More over, you're alluding to evidence that clearly shows this or that, but you've not provided any. You've shown that Journalists tend to lean left, fair enough, but your assumption that they're reporting and that of the media leans left is still unproven. You've proven the first part of your theory, but not the progression, link nor outcome, that's all left up to your assumption. On the other hand I've given numerous examples before now where the US media demonstrably swings to support of Republicans. You're hung up on what the journalists think, but it proves nothing, you need to demonstrate where the media, not individual journalist, actually leans left. You haven't done that.
Quote:

When, in late July, a study was released suggesting that George W. Bush was getting more positive presidential election coverage than Al Gore, the Media Research Center wasted no time in bringing out the long knives.

The study was conducted by the Project for Excellence in Journalism and the Committee for Concerned Journalists ("funded by the liberal Pew Charitable Trusts," MRC wants you to know) and was based on one sample week each month over five months in early 2000, focused on media coverage of specific character-related "themes" of the Bush and Gore campaign. It concluded that coverage of Gore tended to focus on negative themes, while coverage of Bush tended to focus on positive themes.


http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2000/votestudy.html
Quote:

The findings include:

# On select issues from corporate power and trade to Social Security and Medicare to health care and taxes, journalists are actually more conservative than the general public.

# Journalists are mostly centrist in their political orientation.

# The minority of journalists who do not identify with the "center" are more likely to identify with the "right" when it comes to economic issues and to identify with the "left" when it comes to social issues.

# Journalists report that "business-oriented news outlets" and "major daily newspapers" provide the highest quality coverage of economic policy issues, while "broadcast network TV news" and "cable news services" provide the worst.


http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2447
Right-Wing Media Groups Provide Ammo for "Liberal Media" Claims
http://www.fair.org/extra/9807/myth-makers.html
Quote:

Well, I'll give you half credit on this one. True, the GOP has sat in the Oval Office much more than the Democrats. But as for the House of Representatives ?? Another lesson begins.....
Well, it's funny I have to tell you this, but over the last century the Executive Branch of the United States government has grown to wield much more power than the founding fathers ever intended, and certainly more than the House of Representatives that it's supposed to be on equal footing with. For instance, Congress should only be able to declare war, but despite having not declared war since the Second World War, America has been involved in a number of Wars, at the sole behest of the President. So controlling the Presidency more often than the Democrats does actually indicate that the Republicans tend to wield more power than the Democrats, yes. So no, despite your statement, I have not been proven wrong, sorry.

I also seem to remember, that while Democrats were in control, the conservative coalition managed to block nearly all they're legislations, so it seems to me that they're control was a name only affair. Your forty years is forty out of a century, and you may be right that Democrats have controlled the House more than Republicans over that time, not to an extent that you can say they had de facto control over the entire government. Which leads me back to my original point, the Republicans are not the Minority Victims by any stretch.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:55 AM

RALLEM


I often go to the Scieceagogo web site where there are people who are claiming that we are evil for wanting to turn our crops into fuel rather than to feed the poor and starving nations of the world, and my arguments to this are that it is the poor and starving nations which are evil for making more babies then they can feed, that simply because we have the ability to grow food enough to feed the poor and starving nations does not in any way obligate us to do so, and hat the Farmers in the United States have the right to do what ever they please with their crops. The Farmer’s first responsibility after God is to their families, and just because we fulfill a Christian sense of charity by giving the people of these poor and starving nations food does not give others the right to call us evil and greedy when ever that food does not get delivered. That goes doubly when it is the poor and starving nations of the world who refuse the boatloads of food we send them because the food was genetically altered and they do not wish to contaminate themselves or their land.



http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:01 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

You're hung up on what the journalists think, but it proves nothing, you need to demonstrate where the media, not individual journalist, actually leans left. You haven't done that.



Now I have. Enjoy


While the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal is conservative, the newspaper's news pages are liberal, even more liberal than The New York Times. The Drudge Report may have a right-wing reputation, but it leans left. Coverage by public television and radio is conservative compared to the rest of the mainstream media. Meanwhile, almost all major media outlets tilt to the left.

These are just a few of the surprising findings from a UCLA-led study, which is believed to be the first successful attempt at objectively quantifying bias in a range of media outlets and ranking them accordingly.

"I suspected that many media outlets would tilt to the left because surveys have shown that reporters tend to vote more Democrat than Republican," said Tim Groseclose, a UCLA political scientist and the study's lead author. "But I was surprised at just how pronounced the distinctions are."

"Overall, the major media outlets are quite moderate compared to members of Congress, but even so, there is a quantifiable and significant bias in that nearly all of them lean to the left," said co‑author Jeffrey Milyo, University of Missouri economist and public policy scholar.

The results appear in the latest issue of the Quarterly Journal of Economics, which will become available in mid-December.

Groseclose and Milyo based their research on a standard gauge of a lawmaker's support for liberal causes. Americans for Democratic Action (ADA) tracks the percentage of times that each lawmaker votes on the liberal side of an issue. Based on these votes, the ADA assigns a numerical score to each lawmaker, where "100" is the most liberal and "0" is the most conservative. After adjustments to compensate for disproportionate representation that the Senate gives to low‑population states and the lack of representation for the District of Columbia, the average ADA score in Congress (50.1) was assumed to represent the political position of the average U.S. voter.

Groseclose and Milyo then directed 21 research assistants — most of them college students — to scour U.S. media coverage of the past 10 years. They tallied the number of times each media outlet referred to think tanks and policy groups, such as the left-leaning NAACP or the right-leaning Heritage Foundation.

Next, they did the same exercise with speeches of U.S. lawmakers. If a media outlet displayed a citation pattern similar to that of a lawmaker, then Groseclose and Milyo's method assigned both a similar ADA score.

"A media person would have never done this study," said Groseclose, a UCLA political science professor, whose research and teaching focuses on the U.S. Congress. "It takes a Congress scholar even to think of using ADA scores as a measure. And I don't think many media scholars would have considered comparing news stories to congressional speeches."

Of the 20 major media outlets studied, 18 scored left of center, with CBS' "Evening News," The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times ranking second, third and fourth most liberal behind the news pages of The Wall Street Journal.

Only Fox News' "Special Report With Brit Hume" and The Washington Times scored right of the average U.S. voter.

The most centrist outlet proved to be the "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer." CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown" and ABC's "Good Morning America" were a close second and third.

"Our estimates for these outlets, we feel, give particular credibility to our efforts, as three of the four moderators for the 2004 presidential and vice-presidential debates came from these three news outlets — Jim Lehrer, Charlie Gibson and Gwen Ifill," Groseclose said. "If these newscasters weren't centrist, staffers for one of the campaign teams would have objected and insisted on other moderators."

The fourth most centrist outlet was "Special Report With Brit Hume" on Fox News, which often is cited by liberals as an egregious example of a right-wing outlet. While this news program proved to be right of center, the study found ABC's "World News Tonight" and NBC's "Nightly News" to be left of center. All three outlets were approximately equidistant from the center, the report found.

"If viewers spent an equal amount of time watching Fox's 'Special Report' as ABC's 'World News' and NBC's 'Nightly News,' then they would receive a nearly perfectly balanced version of the news," said Milyo, an associate professor of economics and public affairs at the University of Missouri at Columbia.

Five news outlets — "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer," ABC's "Good Morning America," CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown," Fox News' "Special Report With Brit Hume" and the Drudge Report — were in a statistical dead heat in the race for the most centrist news outlet. Of the print media, USA Today was the most centrist.

An additional feature of the study shows how each outlet compares in political orientation with actual lawmakers. The news pages of The Wall Street Journal scored a little to the left of the average American Democrat, as determined by the average ADA score of all Democrats in Congress (85 versus 84). With scores in the mid-70s, CBS' "Evening News" and The New York Times looked similar to Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., who has an ADA score of 74.

Most of the outlets were less liberal than Lieberman but more liberal than former Sen. John Breaux, D-La. Those media outlets included the Drudge Report, ABC's "World News Tonight," NBC's "Nightly News," USA Today, NBC's "Today Show," Time magazine, U.S. News & World Report, Newsweek, NPR's "Morning Edition," CBS' "Early Show" and The Washington Post.

Since Groseclose and Milyo were more concerned with bias in news reporting than opinion pieces, which are designed to stake a political position, they omitted editorials and Op‑Eds from their tallies. This is one reason their study finds The Wall Street Journal more liberal than conventional wisdom asserts.

Another finding that contradicted conventional wisdom was that the Drudge Report was slightly left of center.

"One thing people should keep in mind is that our data for the Drudge Report was based almost entirely on the articles that the Drudge Report lists on other Web sites," said Groseclose. "Very little was based on the stories that Matt Drudge himself wrote. The fact that the Drudge Report appears left of center is merely a reflection of the overall bias of the media."

Yet another finding that contradicted conventional wisdom relates to National Public Radio, often cited by conservatives as an egregious example of a liberal news outlet. But according to the UCLA-University of Missouri study, it ranked eighth most liberal of the 20 that the study examined.

"By our estimate, NPR hardly differs from the average mainstream news outlet," Groseclose said. "Its score is approximately equal to those of Time, Newsweek and U.S. News & World Report and its score is slightly more conservative than The Washington Post's. If anything, government‑funded outlets in our sample have a slightly lower average ADA score (61), than the private outlets in our sample (62.8)."

The researchers took numerous steps to safeguard against bias — or the appearance of same — in the work, which took close to three years to complete. They went to great lengths to ensure that as many research assistants supported Democratic candidate Al Gore in the 2000 election as supported President George Bush. They also sought no outside funding, a rarity in scholarly research.

"No matter the results, we feared our findings would've been suspect if we'd received support from any group that could be perceived as right- or left-leaning, so we consciously decided to fund this project only with our own salaries and research funds that our own universities provided," Groseclose said.

The results break new ground.

"Past researchers have been able to say whether an outlet is conservative or liberal, but no one has ever compared media outlets to lawmakers," Groseclose said. "Our work gives a precise characterization of the bias and relates it to known commodity — politicians."

-UCLA-

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-666
4.aspx?RelNum=6664




It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

In at least one respect they are synonymous. You never have anything good to say about either.
Not true. IMHO, everything that's seriously wrong with the United States can be traced back to corporatism. I've had lots of good things to say about our Constitution, separation of church and state, ability to self-correct etc. Unlike some of our Libertarian brethren I even envision a positive role for elected government. But even tho they want to do away with our government altogether- which is bordering on sedition- I don't see you fretting about them!

Must be because your real allegiance is to wealth, not democracy.
Quote:

I can only go on what I see here in RWED, but all I see from you is someone who spouts unremitting vitriol against the US, and at anyone who does not agree with 100% of your opinions about it.
Awww.... you're just mad because I once said you were as stupid as Rapo because, for once, you actually were. But that's OK, I forgive you!
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:56 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Now I have. Enjoy
...
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-666
4.aspx?RelNum=6664


Cool, now we have something to work with. This is, in fact an opinion piece, with no links as I can see to the actual underlying study itself, but lets ignore that for the moment to focus on what it says about the study. This ADA scale seems a singularly ineffective match to media outlets, it's one thing to judge law makers by the way they vote, but quite another to judge media outlets on a subjective scale, based on criteria that seem fairly arbitrary. The criteria, i.e. who they cite seems faulty at best, since it makes no allowances for actual content.

The ADA scale, when used for congressmen, analyses they're conclusions through they're voting record. Here they've applied it to analyse supporting citations, not the conclusions that are drawn. That is, if the outlet cited only left wing sources, but always reached right wing conclusions, this method would define it as left-wing. I question the validity of that methodology.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Auraptor: I haven't read the paper, but I immediately have three fundamental question about it

1) Who decides whether a think tank is left, middle of the road, or centrist? My definitions could be very different from the authors', so what are their criteria? Seat of the pants? since they use those assumptions to set the mathematical "boundaries" for the study it's important what those are.

2) In addition, since only successful and moneyed foundations are actually likely to be quoted in the news, and most of these foundation get their money from corporations, its unlikely that they represent the real range of public opinion which is likely to be much broader.

I think it would have been far more accurate to look at non-profits (NGOs) and churches which derive their income from individual donations (people voting with their hard-earned money), and see how many times those organizations are cited in the news! The NRDC versus The Assemblies of God smackdown!

3) Why do the authors assume that the Senate's range of opinion represents the US population's? Senate membership is highly filtered by money, so it's unlikely that you'll find the endpoints on either end of ANY spectrum in the Senate. At best, I think the Senate (just like the think tanks) represent a muffled version of our diverse viewpoints.

When I read the paper, perhaps I'll have more questions.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 5:29 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
IMHO, everything that's seriously wrong with the United States can be traced back to corporatism.



So you didn't like the New Deal?

But you didn't mention corporatism in your response to 6ix, unless you consider corporatism and monopolism synonymous, in which case I guess we need a SignyM dictionary. Your response targets the US.

"They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."

Quote:

I've had lots of good things to say about our Constitution, separation of church and state, ability to self-correct etc.

I can't find them. Cites please.

Quote:

Unlike some of our Libertarian brethren I even envision a positive role for elected government.


you mean "...our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."? And BTW, even the most ardent libertarian here knows that we're not going to get rid of government alltogether. most would be happy just reducing its size and power.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 5:48 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Cool, now we have something to work with. This is, in fact an opinion piece, with no links as I can see to the actual underlying study itself...



Here it is.

http://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/MediaBias.doc

Edit to add: ...and their defense against a critical review.

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001301.html

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


No time to fully respond to the questions you posed ( going to a FIREFLY meet up ) but I've always noticed how, when a think tank is mentioned in the media, it's always referred to as a "conservative " think tank, if its conservative, but almost never are Liberal think tanks referred in like manner.

Just my 2 cents.

As you were.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


'Rappy: I note your source for your "liberal bias" claim as the Media Research Center, the same Media Research Center that had THIS to say:

Quote:

We are training our guns on any media outlet or any reporter interfering with America's war on terrorism or trying to undermine the authority of President Bush. We are taking no prisoners!


So clearly you can see that they have a little "bias" of their own.

That crap about owners of news outlets not having any say in how news is reported or slanted is utter gunk. You claim that, and THEN also claim that a reporter's political leanings DO obviously affect the way that THEY report or slant a story. Trying to have it both ways much?

As for the Media Research Center's "facts" - I'll give them exactly as much credence as you'd give an investigative piece published in Vanity Fair or the New York Times: none whatsoever.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

unless you consider corporatism and monopolism synonymous
Geezer, I've often said the inevitable end stage of capitalism is monopolism (or corporatism). And we're there.

"They're jealous of our long work hours..."
And who made that necessary? Corporations, of course.

"our high crime rate, our homelessness..."
In my opinion, a result of an economic ideology that pits everyone against everyone, where there is no room for societal goals.

"our boob of a President..."
Thanks to the dumbed-down discourse that been foisted on us by an advertising culture and corporately-owned media.

"our monopolism..."
Thanks to, well, the monopolies

"our lack of health-care."
Thanks to corporations

"And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."
Thanks to Diebold, Choicepoint, and other corporations, and the prevailing viewpoint that anything that can be done MUST be done by a for-profit business... including the voting process. (See Hacking Democracy)
Quote:

I can't find them. Cites please
It's an ongoing discussion with Finn about patriotism versus republicanism. I'm not going to find it for you but it pops up here and there.
Quote:

And BTW, even the most ardent libertarian here knows that we're not going to get rid of government alltogether. most would be happy just reducing its size and power.
mmm... I get a very distinct "camel's nose in the tent" whiff from you, Sarge, and Frem about Libertarianism, which often seems just a cover for corporo-anarchism.... or is it anarcho-corporatism? And any government function that you'd get rid of you'd replace with... ....more corporations!
As if that's gonna help!

Much as YOU would like to blur the lines the Founding Fathers, to the best of my knowledge, tried to create a system of government not a system of monopolies or an empire to feed them. When I think about what's best about this nation, its the ideals of Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin.

So now you've just read something positive from me about the USA (which, if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize is just a repeat of what I've said before.)

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:26 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

"They're jealous of our long work hours..."
And who made that necessary? Corporations, of course.

"our high crime rate, our homelessness..."
In my opinion, a result of an economic ideology that pits everyone against everyone, where there is no room for societal goals.

"our boob of a President..."
Thanks to the dumbed-down discourse that been foisted on us by an advertising culture and corporately-owned media.

"our monopolism..."
Thanks to, well, the monopolies

"our lack of health-care."
Thanks to corporations

"And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."
Thanks to Diebold, Choicepoint, and other corporations, and the prevailing viewpoint that anything that can be done MUST be done by a for-profit business... including the voting process.



Even assuming that these assertions are true (but that's for another thread), the caveat that it's all due to corporatism is not what you originally said, or what you generally ever say, when the subject of the US comes up.

If we lived with the same government we had when the Founding Fathers were alive we'd still have slavery, only rich white men could vote, pretty much only men could own property, etc. I'd say there have been some improvements.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:14 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

"They're jealous of our long work hours..."
And who made that necessary? Corporations, of course.



It used to be people in this country worked from sun up till sun down, but somewhere in the 20th century the United States Government decided that since there were 120 hours in a week that 40 of them will go to work, 40 to recreation, and 40 to sleep. I don't know where you get this gripe about having to work long hours unless you're from Italy or maybe France where they don't believe in putting in a fair days labor for a fair days pay.

Quote:

"our high crime rate, our homelessness..."
In my opinion, a result of an economic ideology that pits everyone against everyone, where there is no room for societal goals.



There were high crime rates long before there were corporations and there was a high level of homelessness then too, and the causes for homelessness are plentiful so trying to blame these issues on corporations is a bit unfair I think. Also in America it is against the law to hold a monopoly unless you can get a special permit by the government like maybe a professional sports organization. Even then when someone can get a special license to hold a monopoly that license has to be voted upon in the senate periodically and that is why the associations like baseball and football jump whenever a congressman or senator investigates them, they might lose their license for that monopoly.

Quote:

"our boob of a President..."
Thanks to the dumbed-down discourse that been foisted on us by an advertising culture and corporately-owned media.



Our president isn't a genius because he has an IQ of 120. What is yours again? From some of the conclusions you've shown I would guess 85?

Quote:

"And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."
Thanks to Diebold, Choicepoint, and other corporations, and the prevailing viewpoint that anything that can be done MUST be done by a for-profit business... including the voting process. (See Hacking Democracy)



We are not a democracy and I am surprised that people in this country still embrace this idea that we are when it quite clearly states in paragraph four of chapter four of our constitution that the Government must be run in the form of a republic. Am I going to have to explain to you the differences between a democracy and a republic, or can I trust that you’ll look it up?







http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 3:36 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
We are not a democracy and I am surprised that people in this country still embrace this idea that we are when it quite clearly states in paragraph four of chapter four of our constitution that the Government must be run in the form of a republic. Am I going to have to explain to you the differences between a democracy and a republic, or can I trust that you’ll look it up?

I believe you need to look it up. Democracy is an Umbrella term for government formed through popular vote, which includes Democratic Republics which is what the US is. If we are to take the classical view of a Democracy, there hasn't been one since the ancient Greece city state of Athens, the term has expanded since then.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 5:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




Quote:


Our president isn't a genius because he has an IQ of 120. What is yours again?



You really wanna know? Put it this way: in my house, the President would be the one sitting in the corner with the dunce cap on.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 5:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

somewhere in the 20th century the United States Government decided that since there were 120 hours in a week that 40 of them will go to work, 40 to recreation, and 40 to sleep.


Might wanna check your facts there, bub. It wasn't the US government that decided it, it was the labor unions. Be sure to thank a union member for your 40-hour week! The government didn't so much "decide" it, they mostly *accepted* it as a standard after more and more unions demanded it and got it.

From Wiki:

Quote:

In the United States, Philadelphia carpenters went on strike in 1791 for the ten-hour day. By the 1830s, this had become a general demand. In 1835, workers in Philadelphia organized a general strike, led by Irish coal heavers. Their banners read, From 6 to 6, ten hours work and two hours for meals. Labor movement publications called for an eight-hour day as early as 1836. Boston ship carpenters, although not unionized, achieved an eight-hour day in 1842.
In 1864, the eight-hour day quickly became a central demand of the Chicago labor movement. The Illinois legislature passed a law in early 1867 granting an eight-hour day but had so many loopholes that it was largely ineffective. A city-wide strike that began on May 1, 1867, shut down the city's economy for a week before collapsing. In 1868, Congress passed an eight-hour law for federal employees, which was also of limited effectiveness.
In August 1866 the National Labor Union at Baltimore passed a resolution that said, "The first and great necessity of the present to free labour of this country from capitalist slavery, is the passing of a law by which eight hours shall be the normal working day in all States of the American Union. We are resolved to put forth all our strength until this glorious result is achieved."
During the 1870s, eight hours became a central demand, especially among labor organizers, anarchists and socialists, with a network of Eight-Hour Leagues which held rallies and parades. A hundred thousand workers in New York City struck and won the eight-hour day in 1872, mostly for building trades workers. In Chicago, Albert Parsons became recording secretary of the Chicago Eight-Hour League in 1878, and was appointed a member of a national eight-hour committee in 1880.
At its convention in Chicago in 1884, the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions resolved that "eight hours shall constitute a legal day's labour from and after May 1, 1886, and that we recommend to labour organizations throughout this jurisdiction that they so direct their laws as to conform to this resolution by the time named."
The leadership of the Knights of Labor, under Terence V. Powderly, rejected appeals to join the movement as a whole, but many local Knights assemblies joined the strike call including Chicago, Cincinnati and Milwaukee. On May 1, 1886, Albert Parsons, head of the Chicago Knights of Labor, with his wife Lucy Parsons and two children, led 80,000 people down Michigan Avenue, Chicago, in what is regarded as the first-ever modern May Day Parade, in support of the eight-hour day. In the next few days they were joined nationwide by 350,000 workers who went on strike at 1,200 factories, including 70,000 in Chicago, 45,000 in New York, 32,000 in Cincinnati, and additional thousands in other cities. Some workers gained shorter hours (eight or nine) with no reduction in pay; others accepted pay cuts with the reduction in hours.


On May 3, 1886, August Spies, editor of the Arbeiter-Zeitung (Workers Newspaper), spoke at a meeting of 6,000 workers, and afterwards many of them moved down the street to harass strikebreakers at the McCormick plant in Chicago. The police arrived, opened fire, and killed four people, wounding many more. At a subsequent rally on May 4 to protest this violence, a bomb exploded at the Haymarket Square. Hundreds of labour activists were rounded up and the prominent labour leaders arrested, tried, convicted, and executed giving the movement its first martyrs. On June 26, 1893 Illinois Governor John Peter Altgeld set the remaining leader free, and granted full pardons to all those tried claiming they were innocent of the crime for which they had been tried and the hanged men had been the victims of "hysteria, packed juries and a biased judge".
The American Federation of Labor, meeting in St Louis in December 1888, set May 1, 1890 as the day that American workers should work no more than eight hours. The International Workingmen's Association (Second International), meeting in Paris in 1889, endorsed the date for international demonstrations, thus starting the international tradition of May Day.
The United Mine Workers won an eight-hour work day in 1898.
The Building Trades Council (BTC) of San Francisco, under the leadership of P.H. McCarthy, won the eight-hour day in 1900 when the BTC unilaterally declared that its members would work only eight hours a day for $3 a day. When mill resisted, the BTC began organizing mill workers; the employers responded by locking out 8,000 employees throughout the Bay Area. The BTC, in return, established a union planing mill from which construction employers could obtain supplies — or face boycotts and sympathy strikes if they did not. The mill owners went to arbitration, where the union won the eight-hour day, a closed shop for all skilled workers, and an arbitration panel to resolve future disputes. In return, the union agreed to refuse to work with material produced by non-union planing mills or those that paid less than the Bay Area employers.
By 1905 the Eight-hour day is widely installed in the printing trades.
On January 5, 1914, the Ford Motor Company took the radical step of doubling pay to $5 a day, and cut shifts from nine hours to an eight hour day, moves that were not popular with rival companies, although seeing the increase in Ford's productivity, most soon followed suit.
The Adamson Act was a United States law passed in 1916 that established an eight-hour workday, with additional pay for overtime work, for railroad workers. This was the first federal law that regulated the hours of workers in private companies. The United States Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Act in 1917.
The eight-hour day was realized for many working people in the U.S. in 1938, when the Fair Labor Standards Act (29 U.S. Code Chapter 8) under the New Deal made it a legal day's work throughout the nation.





Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 5:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Even assuming that these assertions are true (but that's for another thread), the caveat that it's all due to corporatism is not what you originally said, or what you generally ever say, when the subject of the US comes up.
Oh? I thought I've been pellucidly clear from the start that most of our interventions and our "foreign aid" support "our" corporate interests abroad. I can point to whole swaths of the globe where we've either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so we could get our bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Tran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you. Is it necessary to restate in every single thread what I think is behind our ethical lapses? Apparently, for you, it is!
Quote:

If we lived with the same government we had when the Founding Fathers were alive we'd still have slavery, only rich white men could vote, pretty much only men could own property, etc. I'd say there have been some improvements.
I'm all for improving our government; that means that we come closer to the ideals ( You Do know what those are, right?) that our nation was founded on.

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rallem, your statements ignorant beyond belief.
Quote:

It used to be people in this country worked from sun up till sun down, but somewhere in the 20th century the United States Government decided that since there were 120 hours in a week that 40 of them will go to work, 40 to recreation, and 40 to sleep. I don't know where you get this gripe about having to work long hours unless you're from Italy or maybe France where they don't believe in putting in a fair days labor for a fair days pay.
What is the point of labor-saving devices if they don't... er, save labor? I thought that was the whole point of automation, and other advanced methods of production. But if you want to go back to 200-year-old methods of production, feel free!

Also, as Kwicko pointed out, it wasn't "the government" that "decided" on a 40-hour week.
Quote:

There were high crime rates long before there were corporations and there was a high level of homelessness then too, and the causes for homelessness are plentiful so trying to blame these issues on corporations is a bit unfair I think.
But to have such high crimes rates and homelessness in such a nominally wealth nation is an anomaly.
Quote:

Also in America it is against the law to hold a monopoly unless you can get a special permit by the government like maybe a professional sports organization.
That is absolutely not true. It is PERFECTLY LEGAL to hold a monopoly. What is illegal is to engage in anticompetitive practices. But our pro-corporate government seems not to prosecute for that, either. I can show you several cases where recent administrations have either encouraged consolidation (FCC, DMCA) or failed to effectively prosecute blatant anti-competitive practices (Justice Department v Microsoft).
Quote:

Our president isn't a genius because he has an IQ of 120. What is yours again? From some of the conclusions you've shown I would guess 85?
It's higher than Bush's by a darn sight (but BTW I doubt he has an IQ of 120. Or, if he did, that was before he fried his brain with drugs and alcohol) and prolly higher than yours by quite a bit more.
Quote:

We are not a democracy and I am surprised that people in this country still embrace this idea that we are when it quite clearly states in paragraph four of chapter four of our constitution that the Government must be run in the form of a republic. Am I going to have to explain to you the differences between a democracy and a republic, or can I trust that you’ll look it up?
How does that address the issue of fraudulent voting systems? Oh... it doesn't. But nice try, though. You DID pick up on the fact that it has something to do with voting!

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Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The main conclusion of the report seems to be
Quote:

All of the news outlets except Fox News’ Special Report received a score to the left of the average member of Congress.
That doesn't seem to be a particularly stunning conclusion, since it's based on too many assumptions (1. Members of Congress probably don't represent the range of American viewpoints especially since we have a large percentage of non-voters. 2. A successful run for Congress depends on raising or having a lot of money which skews who can participate.)

So off the bat, I'd say- Ho hum.

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