REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Just the facts, ma'am ...

POSTED BY: RUE
UPDATED: Friday, June 20, 2008 16:06
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1233
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Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:58 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


... oh yeah, and all the whining from the usuals.

Let's hear it - it never happened. It was only a few times. It was just pranks. It was long ago. They were just bad apples. It wasn't policy. It wasn't torture. It was necessary. It was legal. When we do it, it's good. They deserved it. AND - it can't be traced to Bush, Cheney, or anyone else in the administration ...



http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/06/18/interrogation/
A timeline to Bush government torture

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/18/9703/
The Boston Globe
Human Rights Group Says It Has Proof of Detainee Abuse
WASHINGTON - A Cambridge-based human rights organization said it has found medical evidence supporting the claims of 11 former detainees who were allegedly tortured while in American custody between 2001 and 2004, in what a former top US military investigator said amounts to evidence of war crimes.
Four of the men were captured in Afghanistan and imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and seven were held in Iraq. All were released in recent years, and none was charged with a crime.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/16/9648/
McClatchy Newspapers
US Abuse of Detainees Was Routine at Afghanistan Bases
KABUL, Afghanistan - The guards kicked, kneed and punched many of the men until they collapsed in pain. U.S. troops shackled and dragged other detainees to small isolation rooms, then hung them by their wrists from chains dangling from the wire mesh ceiling.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/02/9360/
The Guardian/UK
US Accused of Holding Terror Suspects on Prison Ships
The United States is operating “floating prisons” to house those arrested in its war on terror, according to human rights lawyers, who claim there has been an attempt to conceal the numbers and whereabouts of detainees.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/29/9294/
The Washington Post
Colonel Says Speaking Out On Detainees Cost Him a Medal
The former chief military prosecutor for terrorism trials at Guantanamo Bay thinks the Defense Department has punished him for testifying publicly that he faced political pressure to speed up the cases and to use evidence derived from torture.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/21/9101/
Agence France Presse
Ex-Guantanamo Inmate Finds Distracted Audience at US Congress
Murat Kurnaz, a Turk who was born in Germany, was arrested during a trip to Pakistan in autumn 2001 and delivered to US authorities in exchange for a payment of 3,000 dollars.
Kurnaz spent several nightmarish weeks at the US base in Kandahar, Afghanistan before being transferred to the US “war on terror” camp at Guantanamo.
US authorities determined in 2002 that Kurnaz had no terror links, but claimed that he remained a danger because one of his friends had committed a suicide attack — even though the friend in question is alive, and has never been found to have terror ties.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/21/9098/
McClatchy Newspapers
Report Details Military Tactics FBI Agents Found Abusive
At one point in 2003, several top Justice Department officials took the concerns about interrogation practices used by the military at Guantanamo to the National Security Council, Justice Department Inspector General Glenn Fine said in his report. However, Fine said the complaints did not appear to trigger any response from the National Security Council, which includes President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney and was chaired at the time by then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/02/8663/
Associated Press
Al-Jazeera Journalist Freed From Guantanamo After 6 Years
“Sami is a poster child for everything that is wrong about Guantanamo Bay: No charges, no trial, constantly shifting allegations, brutal treatment, no visits with family, not even a phone call home,” Katznelson said Thursday.
“Sami was never alleged to have hurt a soul, and was never proven to have committed any crimes. Yet, he had fewer rights than convicted mass murderers or rapists. What has happened to American justice?”

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/17/8342/
CommonDreams.org
CCR Supports National Lawyers Guild Call for Dismissal and Prosecution of John Yoo
On April 1, a secret 81-page memo written by former Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo in March 2003 was made public. In that memo, Yoo advised the Bush administration that the Department of Justice’s Office of Legal Counsel would not enforce U.S. criminal laws, including federal statutes against torture, assault, maiming and stalking in the detention and interrogation of enemy combatants.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/11/8213/
Associated Press
Cheney, Others OK’d Harsh Interrogations
Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/09/8175/
The Guardian/UK
Former Bush Administration Lawyer Asked to Testify Before Congress
The Bush administration lawyer who provided a legal basis for the brutal interrogation tactics used by the US military and CIA was called to account today by congressional Democrats.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/26/7904/
Politico.com
Oscar Winner Plans Abu Ghraib Photo Site
Since Abu Ghraib first came to the world’s attention in 2004, nearly 300 photographs of Iraqi prisoner abuse have been shown to the public. But soon an enormous archive of new material - including more than 1,500 other photos, unredacted court papers and interview transcripts - will be posted online by filmmaker Errol Morris, whose latest documentary “S.O.P.: Standard Operating Procedure” examines the scandal in horrific detail.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/04/7451/
The Toronto Star
Gitmo ‘Attack Dog’ Turns on His Pentagon Masters
Until four months ago, Col. Moe Davis was the chief prosecutor at Guantanamo Bay ... Still in the military, he has irritated the administration, saying that Pentagon officials interfered with prosecutors, exerted political pressure and approved the use of evidence obtained by torture.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/20/7187/
The Nation
Rigged Trials at Gitmo
Secret evidence. Denial of habeas corpus. Evidence obtained by waterboarding. Indefinite detention.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/07/6913/
The Los Angeles Times
Waterboarding Is Legal, White House Says
WASHINGTON — The White House said Wednesday that the widely condemned interrogation technique known as waterboarding is legal and that President Bush could authorize the CIA to resume using the partial-drowning method under extraordinary circumstances.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/07/6907/
The Guardian/UK
US Censured For Waterboarding
The UN’s chief torture investigator criticized the US government yesterday for defending the use of “waterboarding”, an interrogation method often described as a form of torture.
Manfred Nowak, the special rapporteur on torture, said: “This is absolutely unacceptable under international human rights law. [The] time has come that the government will actually acknowledge that they did something wrong and not continue trying to justify what is unjustifiable.”
On Tuesday, the CIA admitted for the first time that it had used the technique ...

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/07/6917/
Time
New Charges of Guantanamo Torture
In 2005, CIA officials ordered the destruction of videotapes depicting the harsh interrogation of prisoners in the agency’s secret overseas prisons.
At that time, Hayden said that only a few prisoners were ever subjected to “special interrogation techniques,” which can include waterboarding, and that nothing was recorded on video after 2002. That claim is now coming under additional scrutiny, in part due to a classified briefing that will be delivered to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence this Friday. Lawyers representing one current Guantanamo detainee tell TIME that they plan to present evidence that he was subjected to videotaped interrogation, in addition to unspecified “systematic torture” when he was held in secret CIA prisons. The lawyers, from the Center for Constitutional Rights, a New York-based legal non-profit with a long record of advocacy for prisoners at Guantanamo, note that their client has said the videotaping occurred after his arrest in 2003.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/07/6915/
The New York Times
CIA Destroyed Tapes as Judge Sought Interrogation Data
WASHINGTON - At the time that the Central Intelligence Agency destroyed videotapes of the interrogations of operatives of Al Qaeda, a federal judge was still seeking information from Bush administration lawyers about the interrogation of one of those operatives,

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/27/6010/
Inter Press Service
Legal Community Condemns Destruction of CIA Tapes
NEW YORK - A former U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) ethics adviser has joined leading members of the U.S. legal community in calling on Congress to investigate the destruction of tape recordings of interrogations carried out by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).Jesselyn Radack ...


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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Proof of a Left wing dominated media.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:02 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Terrorists and terrorist enablers are well trained in lies and deception. Why anyone would believe one word that comes out of the mouths of these animals is difficult to understand. Then again, there are those who simply hate America for the freedom it represents, or they're jealous of our standard of living, but by far the worst of this pathetic lot are the "liberal-guilt" twits who cry for every terrorist murderer who claims they were denied their second helping of apple pie ala mode while in our custody.

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:51 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The Boston Globe
Human Rights Group Says It Has Proof of Detainee Abuse
WASHINGTON - A Cambridge-based human rights organization said it has found medical evidence supporting the claims of 11 former detainees who were allegedly tortured while in American custody between 2001 and 2004, in what a former top US military investigator said amounts to evidence of war crimes.
Four of the men were captured in Afghanistan and imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and seven were held in Iraq. All were released in recent years, and none was charged with a crime.


The report contains neither the names of the persons examined nor the medical evidence. They also refuse to submit their results or the alleged former detainees to independent evaluation.

Also, even if such medical evidence of injury exists...there is no way to prove that it happened when and where they say it did. The people in question come from very violent backgrounds and from violent corners of the world. Who is to say what caused a particular injury, especially when the alleged victim remains unidentified?

H

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Proof of a Left wing dominated media.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


Your response is proof of a right-wing Fascist Bush regime.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:05 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Proof of a Left wing dominated media."

Including the German, French, Canadian and British media, AP and IPS. Riiiiight ...

Your paranoia is going global. It's not just the left-wing-US-liberal-media-with-a-national-politcial-agenda out to get you, it's the whole damn world.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:09 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Terrorists and terrorist enablers are well trained in lies and deception." They deserved it.

"Then again, there are those who simply hate America ..." When we do it, it's good.

"... who cry for every terrorist murderer who claims they were denied their second helping of apple pie ala mode ..." It wasn't torture.

The thing about you Jong, is not only are you stupid, ignorant and deluded - you're BORING.

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Ger your own damn excuses instead of recycled barf.

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:24 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Terrorists and terrorist enablers are well trained in lies and deception." They deserved it.

"Then again, there are those who simply hate America ..." When we do it, it's good.

"... who cry for every terrorist murderer who claims they were denied their second helping of apple pie ala mode ..." It wasn't torture.

The thing about you Jong, is not only are you stupid, ignorant and deluded - you're BORING.



Not so boring that you cannot wait to read my posts and fire back your nasty personal attacks. Allow me to simply say , you hopeless self-centered, pathetic twit. You have the nerve to call me BORING?! Ever look at the bullshit you post?...Cut & paste jobs from Wiki, Mein Kampf, and Dr. Seuss. Your posts are un-readable, and absurdly full of lies and distortions...and I don't even EVER respond to you...but your over-inflated ego and sense of self-importance forces you to assume everything here has to do with you, and you have to inject your fucking stupid opinions on EVERY TOPIC because in the long run, you're just a total loser in life who has nothing going on except this website...I pity you.

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:34 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Your response is proof of a right-wing Fascist Bush regime.


Wow...your standard of proof is kinda low.

In court the standard for criminal cases is beyond reasonable doubt.

For Civil Cases its a preponderance of the evidence.

But for liberals and Bush haters its...if we can imagine it...it must be so.

So I guess I can pack up my busload of nuns and go home... (legal humor).

H

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:21 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Wow...your standard of proof is kinda low.

Yeah, but the assumption of a liberally biased media dies hard.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:29 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hey there Jong

my post: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 17:58
your post: Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 02:02 (8 hrs)
my post: Thursday, June 19, 2008 08:09 (6 hrs)
your post: Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 08:24 (15 MINUTES !)

Looking at these times ... you'd have a hard time convincing anyone I couldn't wait to read your posts ... but maybe you feel that way about mine. Eh ?

Does that make you a hopeless self-centered, pathetic twit ... with your over-inflated ego and sense of self-importance forcing you to assume everything here has to do with you, and you have to inject your fucking stupid opinions on EVERY TOPIC because in the long run, you're just a total loser in life who has nothing going on except this website ... ??? HHhhmmm ?

Well, time to get back to work. I have to say it did my ego good to go a meeting this morning where a large multinational welcomed my professional suggestions.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:37 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Wow...your standard of proof is kinda low.



Actually, I think it's AwwCrapper's standards that are low. ANYTHING that doesn't agree with what he already believes is deemed "left-wing propaganda", no matter where it comes from or who writes it.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The continuing story ...

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/19/9735/
The Washington Times
Cheney Linked To Torture Tactics
A former military officer who served as chief of staff to former Secretary of State Colin Powell on Wednesday said Vice President Dick Cheney probably knew the U.S. military was using torture on Iraqi detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and at prisons in Iraq.Col. Lawrence B. Wilkerson’s testimony before a House panel followed revelations this week that detainees were subjected to beatings and other aggressive interrogation techniques with the authorization of government attorneys. Painful interrogation techniques were apparently authorized in a Feb. 7, 2002, order signed by President Bush that also said al Qaeda and Taliban detainees were not to be considered prisoners of war. The order was based on a legal memo from the White House counsel’s office.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/19/9737/
McClatchy Newspapers
General Who Probed Abu Ghraib Says Bush Officials Committed War Crimes
The remarks by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who’s now retired, came in a new report that found that U.S. personnel tortured and abused detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, using beatings, electrical shocks, sexual humiliation and other cruel practices. “After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes,” Taguba wrote. “The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:24 PM

RIVERLOVE


Piece of go se Rue has now officially become the new Pirate News, or at least as vile and reprehensible as that other piece of useless flesh. Pouring in an endless list of carefully cherry-picked sources and un-imagineably untrustworthy agenda-driven ideologues from all corners of the earth, she is by far the most naive, gullible, assine useful idiot of dark and evil forces this Firefly Fan has ever had the sickening displeasure of being exposed to. Maybe if human beings are lucky she'll go the way of the dodo bird, and the sooner the better.

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:40 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Proof of a Left wing dominated media.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


Your response is proof of a right-wing Fascist Bush regime.

Mike




right - wing: Believes in lower taxes for citizens. Ok, that works

fascist: The control of industry through private ownership and strict Gov't interference and regulation. Nope. Does not apply

regime:.... the term unavoidably conjures up memories of tanks in the streets in Latin America and Eastern Europe. This is to be regretted, since it has two more technical senses in which it may not easily be replaced. First, when governments come and go with bewildering frequency, as in nineteenth-century Spain or post-1945 Italy, there may still be an absence of fundamental or revolutionary change. In these circumstances it is possible to speak of regime continuity. Alternatively, and more rarely, a change of regime (from constitutional monarchy to tyranny, or from dispersed to centralized government) may be achieved without a change in government, as in the move from parliamentary to personal rule by Charles I of England, or under Margaret Thatcher. Secondly, in international relations the difficulty of accommodating the rise of non-state actors within state-centric realist models of explanation has led to use of the term ‘regime’ to cover norm-bound interactions relating to issues such as the global environment or human rights, in which states, international organizations, transnational corporations, individuals, and worldwide pressure groups like Greenpeace or Amnesty International all take part.

— Charles Jones

Nope. Hardly applies here either.

Oh well.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:


Wow...your standard of proof is kinda low.



Actually, I think it's AURaptors standards that are low. ANYTHING that doesn't agree with what he already believes is deemed "left-wing propaganda", no matter where it comes from or who writes it.

Mike




Of course, you're taking the word of folks who'd strap bombs onto themselves and blow up women and children. Also, you're overlooking tiny facts like how even those who allegedly checked out the detainees said there's no way to tell when the "injuries " occurred, if they were preexisting or not.

But go ahead and paint the picture which suits you best. Facts ? We don't need no stinkin' facts !



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


right - wing: Believes in lower taxes for citizens. Ok, that works

fascist: The control of industry through private ownership and strict Gov't interference and regulation. Nope. Does not apply

regime:.... the term unavoidably conjures up memories of tanks in the streets in Latin America and Eastern Europe. This is to be regretted, since it has two more technical senses in which it may not easily be replaced. First, when governments come and go with bewildering frequency, as in nineteenth-century Spain or post-1945 Italy, there may still be an absence of fundamental or revolutionary change. In these circumstances it is possible to speak of regime continuity. Alternatively, and more rarely, a change of regime (from constitutional monarchy to tyranny, or from dispersed to centralized government) may be achieved without a change in government, as in the move from parliamentary to personal rule by Charles I of England, or under Margaret Thatcher. Secondly, in international relations the difficulty of accommodating the rise of non-state actors within state-centric realist models of explanation has led to use of the term ‘regime’ to cover norm-bound interactions relating to issues such as the global environment or human rights, in which states, international organizations, transnational corporations, individuals, and worldwide pressure groups like Greenpeace or Amnesty International all take part.

— Charles Jones

Nope. Hardly applies here either.

Oh well.



You lose. Try again.

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Quote:




fascism


Main Entry:
fas·cism
Pronunciation:
\ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date:
1921
1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

Main Entry:
re·gime
Variant(s):
also ré·gime \rā-ˈzhēm, ri- also ri-ˈjēm\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French régime, from Old French regimen, regime, from Late Latin regimin-, regimen
Date:
1776
1 a: regimen 1 b: a regular pattern of occurrence or action (as of seasonal rainfall) c: the characteristic behavior or orderly procedure of a natural phenomenon or process
2 a: mode of rule or management b: a form of government c: a government in power d: a period of rule



Right (New Right)

: a political movement made up especially of Protestants, opposed especially to secular humanism, and concerned with issues especially of church and state, patriotism, laissez-faire economics, pornography, and abortion




Although a search for "right" also turned up this, which is appropriate:

Quote:



7 a: of, relating to, situated on, or being the side of the body which is away from the side on which the heart is located



Sounds about "right" to me...

But thanks for playing.






Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:21 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Of course, you're taking the word of folks who'd strap bombs onto themselves and blow up women and children.



Of course, YOU'RE taking the word of folks who'd strap bombs onto airplanes and drop them on Iraqi neighborhoods to blow up women and children.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Careful RiverLove

That could be construed as an internet threat.

How do you like your FBI - now, or later ?



***************************************************************
Yeah, all that post-9/11 government intrusion - 'ya gotta love it !

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:54 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jlcklXVQaqEKan6SFvWXydTqGtkAD91C2RT
80

Probe: Pentagon lawyers sought harsh interrogation
Associated Press
The Pentagon in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks pursued abusive interrogation techniques once used by North Korea and Vietnam on American POWs despite stern warnings by several military lawyers that the methods were cruel and even illegal, according to a Senate investigation.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Those military lawyers are SOOOOO left-wing biased...

;)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

AwwCrapper wrote:

Facts ? We don't need no stinkin' facts !



Sounds like the Republican Party platform.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Friday, June 20, 2008 1:32 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

AwwCrapper wrote:

Facts ? We don't need no stinkin' facts !



Sounds like the Republican Party platform.

Mike




You mean the Democratic Party Platform, what w/ the global warming hoax and what not.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, June 20, 2008 3:28 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Probe: Pentagon lawyers sought harsh interrogation
Associated Press
The Pentagon in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks pursued abusive interrogation techniques once used by North Korea and Vietnam on American POWs despite stern warnings by several military lawyers that the methods were cruel and even illegal, according to a Senate investigation.


The AP editors rejected the orginal title of the article: 'Probe: Nothing New So Don't Bother Reading'...they thought it might be bad for circulation.

Here's the relevant part of the article:
"In response, SERE officials provided Haynes' office a list of tactics that included sensory deprivation, sleep disruption and stress positions."

I note they left out the beatings, the denial of medical care, the creative uses for bamboo and electricity.

I suspect that the Vietnamese torturers would read this article and laugh. "Crazy Americans...they only copied the stuff we did in between the torture sessions."

In any event, thanks for the link to the article that proves my point.

H

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Friday, June 20, 2008 3:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

You mean the Democratic Party Platform, what w/ the global warming hoax and what not.


No, I mean the Republican Party platform, what w/ the WMD-and-Saddam-tied-to-Al-Qaeda and whatnot.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Friday, June 20, 2008 4:52 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


OOhhh 'Hero'

You left out the most importnt part: "Beaver wrote a now-infamous Oct. 11, 2002, memo that determined abusive methods could be used against detainees at Guantanamo Bay prison because they were not considered prisoners of war. Her proposed methods included extended isolation, 20-hour interrogations, death threats and waterboarding". ie The exact same torture as practiced by the NK and Chinese.




***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:21 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Her proposed methods included extended isolation, 20-hour interrogations, death threats and waterboarding". ie torture


So they wanted them to be lonely, sleepy, scared, and to think they were drowning. Yeah...thats exactly the same as having a thermometer shoved up your rectum and broken, being beaten over and over, drugged, being electrified, actual drowing, mutilated, and yelled at in Vietnamese.

Now me, I think those proposed methods, properly supervised, are just fine. I'd also approve narco-interrogation and forcing them to watch Barney videos at all hours.

H

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The facts are that the United States has detained or rendered innocent people (as subsequently determined by military lawyers), held them w/o charges and knowingly tortured (beat, punched, suffocated, waterboarded) them or turned them over for torture to other countries.

In fact, the Administration spent considerable time picking a detention center based on where they thought US law might not apply and threaded their way through several categories of suspected enemy until they found one that they could argue that the Geneva Convention might not apply either. Eventually they picked Gitmo over a ship at sea simply because of Gitmo's larger capacity, and "illegal enemy combatant" as the blanket term for anyone they picked up... or who was turned over to them for a bounty.

There is nothing crazy (unfortunately) about recognizing those facts.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:39 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
No, I mean the Republican Party platform, what w/ the WMD-and-Saddam-tied-to-Al-Qaeda and whatnot

Not to mention the Republican insistence that global warming is a hoax, when all the evidence says otherwise.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hero

Torture is torture. When you kill someone, it becomes murder. And yeah, the US has tortured people 'to death'.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:42 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So, now that we all agree that the US intended to torture, sought opportunities to torture, developed the means of torture, and did torture as a matter of POLICY, shall we move on to another topic ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Actually Rue, if you torture someone to death it's prolly manslaughter since you didn't intend to kill the person.

But, yes, in point of fact WE (not our surrogates) have tortured people to death.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Her proposed methods included extended isolation, 20-hour interrogations, death threats and waterboarding". ie torture


So they wanted them to be lonely, sleepy, scared, and to think they were drowning. Yeah...thats exactly the same as having a thermometer shoved up your rectum and broken, being beaten over and over, drugged, being electrified, actual drowing, mutilated, and yelled at in Vietnamese.

Now me, I think those proposed methods, properly supervised, are just fine. I'd also approve narco-interrogation and forcing them to watch Barney videos at all hours.

H



You need to get one things straight. Waterboarding isn't "simulated" drowning. It's ACTUAL drowning. Shit, man, you're supposed to have some legal training! Answer me this: if I shoot you in your stupid head, and you don't die, is it still attempted murder? What if I claim I didn't mean to kill you at all, but just scare you?

Yeah, waterboarding is like that. You're not "pretending" to kill someone, you're actually killing him - only stopping at the very last instant. You say it's a prank, a fraternity stunt. Tell me, do they prosecute people for hazing in your state? Do they prosecute them when someone DIES because of the hazing, or is it just a harmless little prank?



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Friday, June 20, 2008 7:25 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The facts are that the United States has detained or rendered innocent people (as subsequently determined by military lawyers),


No, there is no evidence that the US knowingly detained innocent persons. The evidence is certain that once a person's innocence was established...they were released.
Quote:


held them w/o charges and knowingly tortured (beat, punched, suffocated, waterboarded) them or turned them over for torture to other countries.


With the exception of waterboarding, there is no evidence of use torture methods you suggest. Injuries consistant with physical violence likely resulted from the manner of the person's capture or subsequent resistance. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise...except for the testimony of the alleged victims most of whom remain unnamed and any of whom have no obligation to tell the truth since their statements are not even made under oath.

We did turn people over to other countries that do allow physical interrogation. There is nothing wrong with that and in many cases those nations were simply better suited to interrogate persons specifically because such practices DO NOT occur under US jurisdiction.
Quote:


In fact, the Administration spent considerable time picking a detention center based on where they thought US law might not apply and threaded their way through several categories of suspected enemy until they found one that they could argue that the Geneva Convention might not apply either.


I don't see a problem with any of that.

Seeking legal clarification of captured militants was an ongoing problem. They simply did not meet the specific guidelines defining POWs. They were closer in both form and substance to either spies, criminals, insurgents, or pirates...none of which properly described them. A new descriptive catagory was needed specifically to bring them within the bounds of international law under which, up to this point, they simply did not exist.

In seeking a detention center the military needed a facility that was easily secured, out of theater, and that did not pose a threat to other US interests. Gitmo was perfectly positioned for such a location. The fact that they could assert that the Court's lacked jurisdiction there was one of many considerations. In making this determination it should be noted that in precedent the US Courts traditionally declined jurisdiction over captured enemy combatants, even when located in US territory. For example, the Courts did not hear cases involving the detention of German troops in places like West Virginia during WW2 (although they did hear criminal cases arising out of POW conduct during their detention, in other words, if a POW murdered someone, they were tried in that State's court pursuant to local laws).

As for the Supreme Court's decision. The reasoning is suspect and faulty. In effect they have granted more rights to captured terrorist insurgents then are granted to illegal aliens. Their ruling will also have an effect on all US foriegn installations which will cause great conflict with Status of Forces agreements in nearly every country we presently have troops in. I suspect the Court will revisit this issue in more detail to clarify its ruling and to make it conform with other jurisdictional precedents that it neither supported nor overturned.
Quote:


There is nothing crazy (unfortunately) about recognizing those facts.


Except you mix your facts with your want-it-ta-bees.

H

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Friday, June 20, 2008 7:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

With the exception of waterboarding, there is no evidence of use torture methods you suggest. Injuries consistant with physical violence likely resulted from the manner of the person's capture or subsequent resistance
Bull. One high-value Afghan prisoner was suffocated to death in his sleeping bag while being questioned. Another detainee was beaten so severely in the legs and kidneys that he couldn't kneel as directed (knees were too swollen from being repeatedly stomped on and legs were too swollne from being repeatedly kicked) and died of "heart failure" according to our official report. Those came to light because they ended in death.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 8:39 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
No, there is no evidence that the US knowingly detained innocent persons. The evidence is certain that once a person's innocence was established...they were released.



Great, so you admit that INNOCENT people were tortured, and that you're just peachy with that.


Quote:

With the exception of waterboarding, there is no evidence of use torture methods you suggest.


As I've noted before, that's more than a little bit like saying that with the exception of that one incident, Kennedy's Dallas trip went really well... What you're saying is that, with the exception of the times we tortured people (innocent or not), we didn't torture them. Except when we did.

Quote:

There is no evidence to suggest otherwise...except for the testimony of the alleged victims most of whom remain unnamed and any of whom have no obligation to tell the truth since their statements are not even made under oath.


Oddly, that's exactly the kind of evidence we have from Bush & Cheney in the Plame matter - but you never had a problem believing in THEIR innocence, did you? How awfully CONVENIENT] for you...

Quote:

As for the Supreme Court's decision. The reasoning is suspect and faulty.


Well, one could say the same for their decision in the 2000 election, but that doesn't change their decision, its outcome, or the fact that that's their decision, and their decision isn't something you can really appeal or overrule, short of a Constitutional Amendment...



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Friday, June 20, 2008 9:54 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Bull. One high-value Afghan prisoner was suffocated to death in his sleeping bag while being questioned. Another detainee was beaten so severely in the legs and kidneys that he couldn't kneel as directed (knees were too swollen from being repeatedly stomped on and legs were too swollne from being repeatedly kicked) and died of "heart failure" according to our official report. Those came to light because they ended in death.


Names? Evidence? Kinda lacking in both aren't you?

H

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Friday, June 20, 2008 10:18 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
No, there is no evidence that the US knowingly detained innocent persons. The evidence is certain that once a person's innocence was established...they were released.



Great, so you admit that INNOCENT people were tortured, and that you're just peachy with that.


Ah, I think I've found our communication problem. In my post I in no way admitted innocent people were tortured. All I said was that the evidence shows that innocent people were released. Your poor command of English or deluded mindset erases what I write and inserts your own ideas in their place.

Without passing comment on your proposition...I think it can't be disputed that I did not say what you say I said. If you lie about what I said here, then all of your other positions must and will become suspect. I respectfully urge you to be more careful.
Quote:


Quote:

There is no evidence to suggest otherwise...except for the testimony of the alleged victims most of whom remain unnamed and any of whom have no obligation to tell the truth since their statements are not even made under oath.


Oddly, that's exactly the kind of evidence we have from Bush & Cheney in the Plame matter - but you never had a problem believing in THEIR innocence, did you?


I had no problem believing their innocence. That's because I am a big believer in a person being innocent until proven guilty. Unlike Liberals and Bush-haters I think that is something true of everyone...even Republicans.

As a Prosecutor I face this problem every day. Sometimes its damn annoying. But I respect the burden of proof, I understand its place in our system. The reason I win most of my cases is that I approach every case with this burden in mind. If I have a good faith belief that I cannot meet my burden then I am obligated to dismiss the case. I have met few prosecutors that see things this way. I think its what gives me an edge they don't have...when I try a case in front of a jury, I believe it and I make them believe it too.

The facts of the Plame Affair as told by the reporter who published the story and admitted by the person who leaked her name does not support the grand conspiracy that was adopted as truth by the Left before ANY of the facts were known.

"It must be so...it just has to be...I just know it is" is no standard by which to judge anything yet it seems to be the standard by which the Left judges everything.

H

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Friday, June 20, 2008 10:21 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Names? Evidence? Kinda lacking in both aren't you?

Much like the US with those it places in Guantanamo for 'questioning'.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 10:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Amazing isn't it - the nut-cases that keep crawling out to defend torture. Especially the local legal beagle. You'd think that - being a prosecutor - he'd be all about the rule of law. But maybe that's too much to expect from him.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, June 20, 2008 10:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I had no problem believing their innocence. That's because I am a big believer in a person being innocent until proven guilty.
Unless we detain them ad infinitum w/o charges and torture them to admit their guilt of something or other. THAT you're OK with.

How is it possible that you can carry on so schizophrenically and never notice the irony of what you're saying? Try repeating quickly to yourself I believe in torturing the innocent until proven guilty like a mantra until you reach a breakthrough of understanding.



---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 11:41 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Your poor command of English...


Really, do we HAVE to go through this again? This, from the guy who can't spell "intelligence"? Seriously?

Also, your alleged belief in innocence until proven guilty isn't exactly what you professed when hyping up sobriety checkpoints and the idea of an automatic guilty plea is refusing to submit to a field sobriety test. Guess you never heard of the 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination, or your right not to testify against yourself. Maybe I'm taking a narrow view, but sobriety checkpoints and field sobriety tests are a presumption of GUILT, not innocence. You're requiring people to prove themselves INNOCENT of DUI.

As a f'rinstance, on my BEST day, I'd likely fail the walking a straight line part of the FST, or the standing on one foot part, simply because both of my legs and my back were pretty much destroyed in a motorcycle accident. I can walk and stand, but not very well, and not without pain, and definitely not without wobbling. So I get pulled over, I get out of the car, and I'm basically going to jail for DUI, despite the fact that not only do I not drink and drive - I don't DRINK. Period.

But I'm sure that once they beat all the guilty out of me, they'll be sure to let me go, huh?

It was YOU who maintained that if we torture, it's okay, and if we detain innocent people, it's okay (as long as we eventually release them once they've proven their innocence, quite the opposite of the way the system is *supposed* to work!). I've merely linked the two to suggest that if you're okay with detaining innocent prisoners for years on end without any charges or any charges even pending, and if you're okay with torturing said suspects without any real evidence, then you're okay with torturing innocents, because it's the likely outcome of such a policy.

Now you're trying to say that you're only okay with torturing the guilty - but how do you find out they're guilty, unless you torture it out of them first?

Mohammed Al-Qahtani, for instance, long suspected of being the 20th 9/11 hijacker. He was tortured, repeatedly. Also, all charges against him have been dropped.

How's that happen? If he's not truly "innocent" (and I doubt that he is; he harbors a deep hatred of the United States, a hatred we've only deepened by torturing him), then he's also not clearly guilty - or the prosecution so tainted its case that it can never get a conviction because of the deplorable things they did to a deplorable person. The ends DON'T justify the means. You as an officer of the court should know that.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Friday, June 20, 2008 12:55 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
As a f'rinstance, on my BEST day, I'd likely fail the walking a straight line part of the FST, or the standing on one foot part, simply because both of my legs and my back were pretty much destroyed in a motorcycle accident. I can walk and stand, but not very well, and not without pain, and definitely not without wobbling. So I get pulled over, I get out of the car, and I'm basically going to jail for DUI, despite the fact that not only do I not drink and drive - I don't DRINK. Period.


Right, nothing else plays into that determination besides inability to walk a straight line. The cop will not check your breath and eyes, ask you simple questions etc.
And once back at the station the police will not administer a blood test because it's not needed to charge you with impaired driving, right?

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Friday, June 20, 2008 4:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Now imagine the policeman gets a $14,250,000 - $23,750,000 bonus JUST FOR TURNING YOU IN. Do you think he'll be all too careful about making sure you're really not drunk ?

(Converted from USD denominated rewards to the Afghani at the exchange rate of October 2001)

***************************************************************
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/04/4304/
The New York Times
Secret US Endorsement of Severe Interrogations
... soon after Alberto R. Gonzales’s arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.



http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/01/12/6344/
McClatchy Newspapers
In Voiding Suit, Appellate Court Says Torture is to be Expected

The court rejected other claims on the grounds that then-Attorney General John Ashcroft had certified that the military officials were acting within the scope of their jobs when they authorized the tactics, and that such tactics were “foreseeable.”
“It was foreseeable that conduct that would ordinarily be indisputably `seriously criminal’ would be implemented by military officials responsible for detaining and interrogating suspected enemy combatants,” Circuit Judge Karen LeCraft Henderson wrote in the court’s main opinion.






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