REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

SEN. OBAMA: I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman.

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Monday, August 25, 2008 03:24
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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 5:52 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Wulf,


is THIS when we get to call you a bigot?"



How did you get any of that from what I said?

Its a simple question...

Are places with a high proportion of blacks or hispanics nice, safe, areas?

Its a yes or no question.

I'm sure there are all sorts of reason "why" the places are the way they are.

Don't be afraid of the truth. Don't sweep the truth under the rug either. It's only when we face the harsh and ugly truths, can we work towards actually changing them for the better.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:25 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



Your suggestion was that if whites were to become the minority in this country that it would take a dive in the toilet, in spite of the infrastructure and American culture.

Oddly enough, we seem to be taking a dive now, and mostly because of the policiies of white politicians, and they have had a hand at making us particularly, ultra-violent. We have a lot of blood on our hands because of them...in-fact western culture is probably to blame for as many deaths as any, and lets not forget that germany was almost a completely white, european nation.

A bigot is somebody who thinks of certain races as being inferior, or less good. If you are gong to base your whole case on race, then you are going to fit that definition. I'm not going to shun you or stop talking to you because of it, but I'm going to point it out.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:30 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


You still havn't answered the question.

I made no claim, other than to ask a simple question.

Don't be afraid to answer it.

When we can answer it honestly, without 'explaining away' anything, then we can make actual, real moves to correcting it.


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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


Are places with a high proportion of blacks or hispanics nice, safe, areas?

Its a yes or no question.


No, it's NOT a yes or no question, anymore than asking "Are places with a high proportion of whites or Italians nice, safe, areas?"

BTW, you are more likely to be murdered by a fellow cracker than someone darker than you, Wulf.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm






Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:37 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Not really, I live in D.C.

Still not answering the question......

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:58 AM

RIGHTEOUS9





One move I can think of towards correcting it...

while recognizing a pattern is neccesary towards fixing a problem, stating that a future with whites as the minority would be a hell hole is part of the problem,

is part of ignoring the issue, is part of putting all the blame for inequities and differences in behavior on "them"

on their race,

not on cultural pressures, which may even result from the white majority status,

what about focusing on poverty of these inner cities that has a lot to do with historic and current inequities in education, in job opportunities, etc.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:04 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


So...

Yes or no?

We can get to the correcting it part in a minute.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Are places with a high proportion of blacks or hispanics nice, safe, areas?

As with any area, some are, some aren't.

I fail to see any correlation between race and violence/crime.

I DO however, see a pretty damn high correlation between POVERTY, and violence/crime.

And when you get right down to it, look down the street from here, Dearborn, with one of the highest Arabic-descent populations in the US, and the whole damn DPD and related creep-cops crawling all over it LOOKIN for an excuse, and still it's a place decent enough that I actually hang out there and have developed relations with a lot of folks in the community, who... contrary to the hard-right hate spewed like vomit all over the airwaves, are indeed content to discuss moral, cultural and theological issues with you over coffee without sticking a knife in you over it - something a lot of southern baptists couldn't do on their best and most tolerant day.

I get along exceptionally well with Pashtunwali in particular, barring certain disagreements, but it ain't like they're keen on some of my ideas neither.

Anyhows... imma do what everyone else has been too damn polite to do and call it like I see it.

Your own statements and actions here have portrayed you as an ignorant, bigoted, racist fuckhead who has his head crammed up his ass from listening to too much righty-mighty-whitey hate speech from various media, and if that's who you really are, then maybe you should hump it on back to Stormfront where that kind of thing is a little more welcome.

Not gonna deny you the right to dislike folk based on their sexual preference, color, culture, creed or personal beliefs - yer as welcome to do that as any, but likewise imma mock the everliving crap out of you for it, cause I am of the opinion that it's fuckin ridiculous, and have every bit as much the right to my own opinions as you have yours.

And if you wanted to argue the topic without your "true colors" shining through so vividly, you need a LOT more practice, perhaps you should ask old Donnie Boy for pointers....

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:15 AM

RIGHTEOUS9




Is your question whether or not there is inner city violence, that happens to correspond to poverty as well as race? The answer is yes, and I think race has something to do with it, that being that all people being equal,

and the going science says we all are, that pigmentaion and certain phisical appearnances ammount for a miniscule ammount of our DNA,

that what is different is culture, and the pressure of some cultures on others, and what is different is perception of race, and underreprepresentation of certain races in congress, which sadly results in plain old underrepresentation. Look at the native americans out in areas where htey don't even have running water, water that was brokered by the government to them as part of an agreement for their displacement. But nobody gives a shit because htey don't have any weight to get things happening for their communities.

I'm was not avoiding your question as to whether or not race is tied to violence and poverty in this nation, but focusing on your actual statement, which was that a future with less whites would mean more of this.

Do you see how recognizing a pattern is different than jumping to conclusions about what that pattern means? You jumped to a conclusion that seems steeped with racial overtones.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:31 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Hooh-boy...its going to take me a little bit of time to respond to this one.


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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:44 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Anyhows... imma do what everyone else has been too damn polite to do and call it like I see it.


To follow your lead Frem,
Africa, minding it's own business when WHITE muthaf***ers decided to take slaves & rape & pillage & spread new diseases decimating chunks of the continent...it was WHITE muthaf***ers that wiped out millions of Native North, South & Central Americans...*

* yes, I check the 'White' box, but I'm aware of what some of my ancestors were all about in setting up present day inequities, so pardon me if I seem somewhat less than willing to point a finger at those still feeling the ripple effect of such historical abuse.
That said, those that use it as an excuse for violence ( Rap killa songs) have my sincere contempt.

Breakin' it downisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:52 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Still working on a reply to Fred but....

Technically: It was the Spanish who wiped out Central and South America....

Native Americans: I agree with..

Africa: The first slaves were sold by Africans to the British in exchange for guns....although to be fair, what an African though of as a slave was vastly culturally different than what the Europeans viewed them as.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:56 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Your own statements and actions here have portrayed you as an ignorant, bigoted, racist fuckhead who has his head crammed up his ass from listening to too much righty-mighty-whitey hate speech from various media, and if that's who you really are, then maybe you should hump it on back to Stormfront where that kind of thing is a little more welcome.



Very enlightened Frem.

How come you are allowed to constantly spew your anti-establishment, anti-police rhetoric without someone calling you names and suggesting you post elsewhere? Seriously, what is the disconnect here? I thought you, of all people, would be for free speech, not one of the ones trying to stifle it.

But that's just me I guess. Keep trying to demonize those with conflicting view-points. Been doing a bang up job thus far.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:07 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

How come you are allowed to constantly spew your anti-establishment, anti-police rhetoric without someone calling you names and suggesting you post elsewhere?

Um...'cause certain elements of the establishment & certain police officers and/or departments suck, could that be it?

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:12 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Technically: It was the Spanish who wiped out Central and South America....


Back then, Spanish was white- it's only when peeps from Spain started raping (& marrying later) hot island & Central American Native chicks & spreading their language about did the present day 'Hispanic' come into being.

Hastospellitoutisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:32 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hastospellitoutisall


Might want to use spell check next time.
Ever heard of the Moors?

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:49 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Back then, Spanish was white"


Really? You actually believe that?


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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:53 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Back then, Spanish was white"


Really? You actually believe that?




Chrisisall's Magic 8-Ball says:
It is certain

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:56 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Ever heard of the Moors?

Quote:

A 2006 mitochondrial DNA study of 12th-13th century Islamic remains from Priego de Cordoba, Spain, indicates a higher proportion (4%) of sub-Saharan African lineages attributed at least partially to Moorish occupation, in addition to more ancient migrations to Europe.

Nope.

Moorisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:58 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


If the magic 8-ball says it, then it must be true...



Then again....my magic cue-ball says that statement is horsehit....

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:04 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
If the magic 8-ball says it, then it must be true...



Then again....my magic cue-ball says that statement is horsehit....

I'm sorry, I thought peeps in Spain at that time weren't all that different from the peeps in Italy or France, I was not aware that they were a whole separate race- wow- do I feel stupid.

Racial Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:09 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Usually when you speak of "evil whitey", especially in the historic sense, you mean the British, the Germans, or some other Europeans...

But you said back then they were "white" If that is correct (Im not saying it is) what are they now?

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:20 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

But you said back then they were "white" If that is correct (Im not saying it is) what are they now?

They are a little more mixed (like most countries today), but, take an average person from Espana, and put them next to a person from Belgium, and show me a racial difference, K?
And how about this:
Quote:

it was nothing compared to the surprise Rocco Luiere must have felt when he was informed one day by the state of New York that he was no longer Hispanic.
Rocco's maternal grandparents were born in Spain


http://www.discriminations.us/2004/06/is_spain_hispanic.html

Hey- I habla Espanol, am I Hispanic???

Surroundedbynonsenseisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

How come you are allowed to constantly spew your anti-establishment, anti-police rhetoric without someone calling you names and suggesting you post elsewhere?

Bwahahaha, like I *haven't* been called every name in the book at one time or another by folks here, and/or been less than cordially invited to post elsewhere, on many an occasion ?
Quote:

I thought you, of all people, would be for free speech, not one of the ones trying to stifle it.

But I am all for it, I just pointed out that he's coming off really badly, and if that is in fact how he really feels, I do intend to use my own free speech to mock it - that in no way disallows anyone from feeling that way or speaking their mind.

As for the suggestion, well, if that's the direction this conversation is goin in, then I do believe that would be a more receptive forum for it, wouldn't it now ?

Doesn't mean we can't have it here, just means it prolly ain't gonna be too well-recieved, yanno.

And I ain't demonizing, I am mocking - specifically mocking the idea and concept of disliking another person or group thereof for their skin tone, culture, sexual preferences or personal beliefs, cause in my sole opinion, it's eminently ridiculous... your mileage may vary.

Besides, how are YOU gonna tell if the honkey you're taking for an Aryan isn't really a Berber Arab, neh ?


Not like I care, being of the "Bulworth" philosophy that we should all get busy regardless of race till we're all one color anyways - and I do practice what I preach, having caught royal hell for dating out of race back in the 80's when it was seriously uncool to do so, but then, I took home ec as well, so it's not like other peoples preconceptions mattered to me even then, still don't.

Like it or not, Wulf *is* coming across that way, whether he means to or not, and everyone else seemed a little too polite to point it out.

Far as I am concerned, other humans are other humans, it's what they DO that concerns me, not where they come from, not what they believe, not what they look like, what they DO.

And that part, concerns me quite a bit.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:44 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
and I do practice what I preach, having caught royal hell for dating out of race back in the 80's when it was seriously uncool to do so, but then, I took home ec as well, so it's not like other peoples preconceptions mattered to me even then, still don't.


Holy sh*t Frem, I took Home Ec in '77, and dated a black chick in '80!!! (Some old white lady made a comment in a park where we were kissing: "That's disgusting", to which my girlfriend replied, "She's just upset 'cause she doesn't get any.")

Smallworldisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:48 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I come across as a "bigot" for asking one SIMPLE question?

Wow.

Good grief. I sure don't want to be thought of as a "bigot", so I better stop asking any more questions...or thinking outside of what Im told..

I should just accept what everyone wants me to believe, (or at least parrot it) even tho it goes against my own experiences and intelligence...

Thanks for showing me the light!


(Extreme sarcasm intended)






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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:11 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I sure don't want to be thought of as a "bigot", so I better stop asking any more questions

Don't stop asking questions, just don't ask simplistic loaded questions that you already have an answer for if you don't like negative attention is all.
You could ask a question on this subject that involves peeps giving you their opinions, but this yes or no stuff always see flamage somewhere down the line (I should know, I started a few myself ).

Po-lite Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:13 AM

FREMDFIRMA


(Extreme sarcasm accepted)

Dude, no one is tellin ya what to think or say - I am simply stating that the way you are coming off very heavily implies racist and homophobic overtones - it's up to you to correct that if untrue.

And fer cryin out loud don't sit there and pout cause someone mocked your opinion on something, it's downright petty.

All beliefs should be questioned and examined, whether internally or externally, for that is the only way to find out what suits you to believe.

Just don't expect the rest of the world to necessarily agree with you, or even be politely silent, the world don't work that way.

Mostly cause it's full of assholes, like us.


-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:15 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Mostly cause it's full of assholes, like us.



loLOUD!!!!!!

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:16 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Bwahahaha, like I *haven't* been called every name in the book at one time or another by folks here, and/or been less than cordially invited to post elsewhere, on many an occasion ?


You are right, my bad. Because it happened to you it is perfectly alright to do unto others.
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And I ain't demonizing, I am mocking - specifically mocking the idea and concept of disliking another person or group thereof for their skin tone, culture, sexual preferences or personal beliefs, cause in my sole opinion, it's eminently ridiculous... your mileage may vary.


You are right, my bad. You would never smear an entire group of people for the actions of a few members of that group.
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
...I took home ec as well, so it's not like other peoples preconceptions mattered to me even then, still don't.


What's the matter Frem, did the big noisy table saw scare you?
Just kidding, I knew many guys that took home ec in school. The smart ones saw the advantage of being surrounded by girls instead of taking safety instructions from the three fingered shop teacher.
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Far as I am concerned, other humans are other humans, it's what they DO that concerns me, not where they come from, not what they believe, not what they look like, what they DO.


Hear, hear.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:25 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

What's the matter Frem, did the big noisy table saw scare you?
Just kidding, I knew many guys that took home ec in school. The smart ones saw the advantage of being surrounded by girls instead of taking safety instructions from the three fingered shop teacher.

I took shop as well- good toy phasers were unavailable at that time...I also took ballet in college..me & 1 other guy surrounded by 20 beautiful, athletic babes we were forced to dance with....oh the pain, the pain.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:41 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Ahh the heady days of youth...I took Home Ec too...but for different reasons.

The guys in shop class were making weapons (knives, shanks, ect), which invariably, given the oppurtunity would have been used on the one "minority" kid in that whole misbegotten hell-hole...me.

Plus, if the teach left, turned his back, or was distracted, I would have been pushed INTO the buzzsaw, accidentally beaten with a hammer, or impaled on an exacto knife.. so Home Ec for me.

Where I learned that even cheap plastic knives can be melted down into a good sturdy defensive weapon.

*sigh

But I digress....




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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


The guys in shop class were making weapons (knives, shanks, ect), which invariably, given the oppurtunity would have been used on the one "minority" kid in that whole misbegotten hell-hole...me.


My High School was 60% white & 40% black, and I liked most of the black kids better- they were into martial arts, the white kids called it girl-fighting to kick someone who was trying to bully you, heh heh.
And we made nunchucks in shop too.
Now, if I was THE ONLY white kid in a black school, well, I'd maybe feel the way you do, who can tell?

Diverse Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:15 AM

GREENBROWNCOAT


Anyone who thinks this is about religion is missing the point. And by point, I mean point of law. By restricting legal unions to heterosexual couples, the door is wedged open to admit more and more insidious forms of discrimination.

Now, I am not talking about marriage as a religious institution here, I'm talking about marriage as a legal union, with a license document that is filed with the government, that confers spousal rights upon the people named in the document.

There is a separation of church and state for a reason.

A religion may prohibit marriage between homosexual couples, or deny equal rights and privileges to its female practitioners, or it may state that all who do not believe in the tenets specified by its scriptural writings are blasphemers and worthy of death.

However, the law is supposed to protect every citizen. Every citizen of the country is supposed to have the same rights, the same privileges, and the same responsibilities as every other citizen.

One church's tenets may state that women do not have the right to an education, but under the law the state is supposed to provide its female citizenry with the same rights to education that it provides to its male citizens.

One church may tell its followers that people with differently colored skin from theirs are lesser beings, not fit to share the same rights. Under the law the state is supposed to provide the same rights regardless of the skin color of the citizen.

Now the issue is gay marriage. The religious fervor is clouding the real issue. What is at stake is a point of law.

Married couples have certain rights, such as joint tax returns and spousal health and death benefits. Many companies only offer spousal benefits to married couples, and do not acknowledge life partners (whether homosexual or heterosexual). The definition of household for many government benefits provides better protection to married couples than to unmarried partners living in the same household.

While some states offer civil unions — a form of relationship recognition that gives unmarried couples some state-level benefits of marriage, and some states have adopted domestic partnership laws that provide unmarried couples with health care benefits and/or other protections, our nation has not provided its citizens with federal law to protect all of its citizens.

All citizens should be entitled to the same rights under the law, just as they should all be equally responsible and bound by the laws of the nation.

If anyone reading this believes that any American citizen does not deserve health care or bereavement benefits please explain why.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:33 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by GreenBrowncoat:

All citizens should be entitled to the same rights under the law, just as they should all be equally responsible and bound by the laws of the nation.


I'm sorry GreenBrowncoat, you make too much sense in a calm and measured manor; I believe the rules of RWED state that flaming and ad hominems are required...

isall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Didn't need shop, imma mechanical savant, so that was already covered, and I was already computer literate, owning a Tandy CoCo II before the school even had Tandy Mk I's - but no one in my family could cook worth a damn, and having no alternate path of instruction the choice was obvious.

When I lost my only remaining parent (with no other adults willing to serve as guardian) suddenly and unexpectedly at 17, and had to then survive alone on the pittance a kid of that age can earn, I thanked my lucky stars for that foresight, it played a large part in saving my ass from financial doom.

It also serves me well now, as letting Fremgirl try to cook is *begging* for a kitchen fire, we're talkin about the same girl who somehow let a teakettle boil empty and start melting trying to make TEA...


She actually made a coat of arms flag for me once, a workmans glove holding a wrench crossed against an oven mitt holding a spatula, I like it so much it's hanging over the bookcase now.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:15 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Usually when you speak of "evil whitey", especially in the historic sense, you mean the British, the Germans, or some other Europeans...



Spain is part of Europe. You can look at a map and see it right there.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:20 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by GreenBrowncoat:
Anyone who thinks this is about religion is missing the point. And by point, I mean point of law. By restricting legal unions to heterosexual couples, the door is wedged open to admit more and more insidious forms of discrimination.
...
All citizens should be entitled to the same rights under the law, just as they should all be equally responsible and bound by the laws of the nation.

If anyone reading this believes that any American citizen does not deserve health care or bereavement benefits please explain why.



Amen! Thank you.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:26 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Spain is pretty white. I didn’t see very many dark skinned Spaniards when I was in there. However, I think Wulfenstar’s point is that “white” as it is used in the US has typically been defined as WASP “White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.” Which I don’t think is entirely true. I think that many people use a much broader brush when they use the term white. But he does have a point that WASPs have been historically singled out, above other white people.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:43 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... marriage is the union between a man and a woman."

I don't know why, but every time I read the title I hear that song ....

When a maaaan loves a woooman ...

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:46 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


What does Obama believe ? I guess we now know what he personally believes. What does he think the federal government should do in support of his personal belief ? Nothing.

Sounds fair to me.

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:51 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


More generally - what I don't get is how the government - at any level - can decide who churches can and can't marry. Isn't it up to the doctrines of the respective churches ?

***************************************************************
legal disclaimer: Except in cases of coercion, underage participant(s), polygamy (stupid law, that), or close relatives.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


There was a time when "white areas"... like immigrant Irish neighborhoods... were dangerous, and the people who lived in them were considered trash.

It's more about poverty than anything.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 9:14 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Usually when you speak of "evil whitey", especially in the historic sense, you mean the British, the Germans, or some other Europeans...



Spain is part of Europe. You can look at a map and see it right there.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



As a half-blood European Spaniard (My father's family came over from Castille about a century ago), I can verify that European Spaniards are considered Caucasian.

This has caused some amusement in my family, as my wife is black, resulting in our daughter having a complexion and hair texture easily mistaken for Latina, which, combined with a Spanish last name, causes a great many people to assume that she's Chicana, or Puerto Rican, or any number of other possible ethnicities. She recently returned from a vacation in Belize, where she was more than once taken for a native -- until her North American accent gave her away.

Now, on to the main topic of this thread. First, I think Senator Obama spoke the simple truth about both his personal feelings on the issue, and the relationship of those feelings with constitutional law (which is to say, not much). Personally, while I don't agree with him 100%, I find his attitudes perfectly reasonable, and politically acceptable.

Let me elaborate, by way of offering a definition.

Marriage is two things.

One: It is a religious ceremony signifying the spiritual union of individuals.

Two: It is a civil contract spelling out certain domestic and property rights and responsibilities between individuals.

Due to the separation of church and state in the U.S., the government should not be involved in the first part of the equation. Due to the same separation, religious institutions should not be involved in the second half. Period.

Unfortunately, due to historic accident, the two halves have been conflated -- religious strictures against who can and cannot enter into a state of matrimony have been legislated into the laws that govern the civil contractual end, and those strictures have become so ingrained into our cultural default programs that many find it difficult to accept any variations.

Putting it simply, it should be the right of any religious institution or spiritual system to define marriage as they like it. If they want to limit it to one man/one woman relationships (like mainstream Christianity), that's their right. (and despite the misapprehension of a poster above, no law can force a religion to perform a marriage against their beliefs).

By the same token, if a faith wants to expand the parameters to allow polygamy, polyandry, group bondings, or other variations (such as Wicca, and other neo-pagan movements do), that's fine too.

But -- again, by the same token -- no religion should be allowed to legislate their beliefs into common law. I feel the government's only legitimate interest should be in enforcing the civil contract -- and that should be available to anyone. No church can, or should be, able tell me who I can or cannot enter into a civil contract with.

The obvious, if counter-intuitive answer, as I see it, is to take the government out of the marriage business! As far as I'm concerned, the government's only legitimate function is on the civil level. Just as the government issues birth certificates, but doesn't perform baptisms, all marriages should be considered civil unions under the law, and the term "marriage" should be reserved for the spiritual ceremony only.

So, if your church wants to say no marriage is legitimate except between one man and one woman, fine. If you also want to stipulate that it doesn't count unless it takes place on a rainy Tuesday under a full moon with all participants dancing a conga while wearing pink-polka-dot high-heel sneakers, go for it. Your religion, your choice. Just leave my civil union out of it.


As for the argument that same-gender bondings open a slippery slope, well that same argument made marriages like my own illegal in 17 states until about 40 years ago. Marriage between people of different races, it was argued, was against God's holy plan, and would inevitably lead to group marriage, pederasty, and people tying the knot with pets and household appliances.

Funny. We've been married for nearly a quarter of a century now, and society still seems to be stumbling on. I guess western civilization has more slack around the stays than some people give it credit for. . . .



"Mawwiage. Mawwiage is what bwings us togethew today. Mawwiage, that bwessed awwangement, that dweam within a dweam. And wove, twue wove, wiww fowwow you fowevah and evah…." -- The Impressive Clergyman

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 9:47 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



www.rense.com



BREAKING NEWS:

Lawsuit Filed Today in PA to stop Obama running for president!
Foreign-born citizens of Kenya are not eligible!
Berg vs. Obama, Civil Action No. 08-cv-4083

http://www.obamacrimes.com/
http://larrysinclair0926.com/2522.html?entryId=f7ec29e1601d8ad0e1e2a01
474d2affa


Plaintiff attorney is US prosecutor Philip Berg, who sued Bush under the RICO Act for perping the 9/11 Massacres:
http://911forthetruth.com


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Saturday, August 23, 2008 9:53 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Ah, Piratenews. Still giving paranoid schizophrenia a bad name, I see.

"They're coming to take me away, ha ha! They're coming to take me away, ho ho! To the happy home, with trees and flowers and chirping birds, and I'll be happy to see those nice young men in their clean white coats, and they're coming to take me away, ha ha!" -- Napoleon XIV

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 8:44 AM

PONYXPRESSINC


Wulfenstar wrote:

Quote:

"My belief, my core not-so- bigoted-as-you-would-like-to-think belief, is that marriage is still, and always will be, a religious institution."


I brought this up the last time this debate raged:

From "The Scottish Case That Led to Hardwicke's Marriage Act" by LEAH LENEMAN http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/lhr/17.1/leneman.html

Quote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First, a quick review of the marriage law of England and Scotland at the time (1753) sets the case in context. The only thing necessary for a legal marriage was the free consent of both parties, as long as they were of age (twelve for girls, fourteen for boys), were not within the forbidden degrees of kinship, and were free of any other marriage. Neither the consent of parents nor the presence of witnesses were required. A marriage could be established by verbal de praesenti, that is, the statement of consent by both parties, or by verba de futuro, a promise of marriage in the future, followed by sexual intercourse. Because such things happened in private, various types of evidence came to be accepted in disputed marriage cases, such as letters in which the man wrote, or referred, to the woman as his wife, "habit and repute" (that is, the couple cohabited and were considered by their neighbors and relations to be husband and wife), and so forth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



According to the law before 1753 in England and Scotland Marriage was a civil matter not a religious one. It was brought into the church as a practical matter to avoid disputes over inheritance and legitimacy.

I also did a fair bit of reading about ancient marriage traditions in other cultures and from my recollection many of them were business like rather than religious with the payment of a bride price or similar exchange of goods and/or money and/or fealty.

So my understanding remains the same. Marriage was not always a religious matter, at least, not in Scotland and England.

I also said that I would be genuinely interested if anyone had any evidence to contradict this. I'm not arrogant enough to believe that one afternoon’s research makes me an expert, so, please, to any and all historians out there, is this source accurate or am I barking up the wrong tree?

If the above is correct, then your argument that religious institutions do not allow gay marriage, therefore a union between two persons of the same sex cannot be a marriage falls down. In England and Scotland at least Religion came late to the party.

In fairness, I think your argument that same sex unions should not be called marriages would be better supported by an argument based on historic rather than religious precedent. In my admittedly brief exploration of the subject I could only find one reference to legally recognised same sex marriage. From memory it was in ancient China and I have a feeling it was on a Gay support website, so, if you want to shout “BIAS!” I can’t stop you.

My personal opinion remains the same; I still find it ridiculous that my completely godless registry office ceremony is considered a marriage by both the law and the Church of England when a similar ceremony between two people of the same sex is not. But, I have to accept that just because I feel that way I cannot instantly make Church, State and every individual agree with me.




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Sunday, August 24, 2008 8:59 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Again, (I feel like I say this anytime one of these discussions comes up), marriage is a RELIGIOUS institution.

Civil Unions are NOT a religious institution.

The gay party (or partAy) and its supporters made a fatal error in pushing for it to be called/thought of as, marriage. IF they had pushed for a CIVIL UNION (thereby allowing for all rights to be bestowed) they MIGHT have gotten it.

As it is, if a gay couple speaks about their "marriage", I always laugh. Its no more a marriage than if some redneck yokel married his favorite dog, or if some spoiled lib married his mother.

I, by far, am not religious. Don't get me wrong. But I fail to see how following their tenents makes them any more "bigoted" than the ulta-libs who push THEIR beliefs and views on folks.

I'm fine with Civil Unions, should you want to choose to be that way. But calling it a marriage, and expecting people to see it as such, is foolish and the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Gays want to prtoect their "civil rights". Fine, Im all for it. JUST DO NOT IMPINGE ON SOMEONES ELSES RIGHTS WHEN DOING SO.




Well the bible says that I have to "submit" to my husband and that said husband can have many wives. Progress has negated the former and law has made the latter illegal - so why can't my gay son "marry" whomever he pleases? I don't see that it is your business or anyone else's.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original





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Monday, August 25, 2008 3:19 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
To follow your lead Frem,
Africa, minding it's own business when WHITE muthaf***ers decided to take slaves & rape & pillage & spread new diseases decimating chunks of the continent...it was WHITE muthaf***ers that wiped out millions of Native North, South & Central Americans...*

* yes, I check the 'White' box, but I'm aware of what some of my ancestors were all about in setting up present day inequities, so pardon me if I seem somewhat less than willing to point a finger at those still feeling the ripple effect of such historical abuse.
That said, those that use it as an excuse for violence ( Rap killa songs) have my sincere contempt.



I'm pissed when I have to check the "White" box. If HR wants to know the color of my skin, they can take their worthless overpaid asses down to my office and find out for themselves.

As for Africa, blacks are no different than whites. Man has been enslaving man without regard to color all the time. The only reason you're sweating that shit now is because Jessie and his ilk have been pushing that agenda for years now.

If we didn't bring them over here we wouldn't have a Dream Team or a Redeem Team, the latter of which are all millionaires today I might add. They also wouldn't be getting a free ride on my dime today and be driving around in Ghetto Cruisers they buy with drug money when they can barely support the house they're living in today.

I'm just saying it like it is. My family was poor. There were no slave owners. I refuse to join your self-pity party here.

Or theirs, for that matter. I know plenty of black people who have really made a name for themselves, and many who haven't but are somehow much more content and stress free than I am on a day-to-day basis. Hell, one guy I worked with looked to be about 27 years old and he was almost 40. I never seen him without a smile on his face. When he got sent to prison for a 5 year stint for intent to distribute cocaine, the judge yelled at him for smiling when the sentence came down. He just smiled and said "what am I supposed to do? Get angry? You've already made up your mind."

If only I could live in the moment like that.

I don't feel sorry for anyone in this country, cept of course, those who are dumb enough to not see that they are willingly trading their freedom for a false sense of security...

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, August 25, 2008 3:24 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
What does Obama believe ? I guess we now know what he personally believes. What does he think the federal government should do in support of his personal belief ? Nothing.

Sounds fair to me.

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.



We know about as much about what Obama really believes as we do what Bush really believes. For all we know they both sacrafice goats while partaking in "Eyes Wide Shut" rituals. These people are the scum of the earth and you can only truly know the character of a man by what he does when he knows no one is watching.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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