REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Speaking of Poll Numbers...

POSTED BY: KWICKO
UPDATED: Friday, September 19, 2008 14:17
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Thursday, September 18, 2008 2:03 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Looks like Sarah's star peaked a li'l early - polls now have Obama up an easy 5 points over the McPain ticket.

How's that taste?

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 3:26 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Looks like Sarah's star peaked a li'l early - polls now have Obama up an easy 5 points over the McPain ticket.

How's that taste?


Tastes like a dead heat. No wait... http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/

Why it wasn't so long ago that many of those states were blue...wasn't so long ago Barrack had a massive lead in electoral votes. In less then a month he's lost about forty votes and McCain has added about seventy.

In any event, the convention bounces are done, I think this is how things shake out till the debates.

People are generally tired of Obama, they generally like Palin, and for the most part are pretty settled until the next big thing. Personally I think the financial crisis came too soon. In a week or two people will be saying "hey, that wasn't so bad" and they'll be focused on the debates and the next big crisis.

By then Bidon will have said something stupid...like 'paying higher taxes is patriotic'. Oops... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_el_pr/biden_taxes

H

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 4:46 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Why does anyone even listen to polls anymore?

They can be manipulated, or changed, or the results skewed to show what you believe.

I'm sure that if we took a "poll" on this board it could be mad to look any way we wish.

Just look at it this way, if the pollsters reported their findings accuratly, they could say that its a deadheat between Obama and McCain. 50/50. But they could forget to mention that they only asked 2 people.

Polls dont matter.

Its the results that do.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 4:50 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



Hero, you cynical bastard, after everything you've seen from Palin, if you still want her to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency, then you just don't give a fuck.

The woman is not ready, or anywhere close. She hasn't spent the last couple years getting ready, her highschool debate style of "getting through" tough questions without answering them or even understanding them is cute if she's running for class President,

but this is fucking serious...she took a soft-ball interview from Charlie Gibson who asked her a couple questions without even a hint of going for the jugular when she proved to the nation she had no fucking clue...

contrast to the weak argument that Obama is also untested - Obama has fielded a vast array of reporters and their tough questions, including Fox News Bill O, without preconditions. You may disagree with his positions, but you can't disagree that he knows his shit.

You know that if Palin becomes President for any reason, she will be at the whim of her handlers...she may have the confidence, but she doesn't have the information that is supposed to be what gives you the confidence, to hold that office.

That doesn't bother you?

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 5:06 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

Hero, you cynical bastard, after everything you've seen from Palin, if you still want her to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency, then you just don't give a fuck.

Bingo! Why we still talkin' about this?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 5:21 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


So the true test for office of the President is whether you can "handle" the Media?

Wow, I thought there was a lot more to it...

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 5:47 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

Hero, you cynical bastard, after everything you've seen from Palin, if you still want her to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency, then you just don't give a fuck.

That doesn't bother you?


I like everything I've seen from Palin. I think she has the experiance to do the job. So no, it does not bother me, probably because we're not seeing the same things from her.

I give enough of "a fuck" to listen to the person, not the attacks. To look at her record, not the liberal commentary. To look at her positions on the issues I care about, not her placement on the tabloid newstands.

I liked her from the moment she started speaking the day McCain announced her and I've liked her more every day since then. For you the opposite is true. That's politics.

Why does your dislike for her have to be so personal? I'm not voting for Barrack, but I still think he's a pretty good guy. I'm no fan of Joe Bidon, but I could see us finding common ground talking football or something.

I think the truth is Sarah Palin represents a fundamental threat to the Democratic Party and Liberal agenda. She is far more representative of most women in America then the feminists could ever hope to be. A mother, happily married, strong willed, Christian, and Conservative. In other words, she could be the end of the Democratic Party. They could weather defeat by McCain...they can not lose to a woman.

H

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 5:57 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


are you fucking joking?

It's not about whether you can handle the media, though if you can't handle them I'm not sure why I should expect you to handle foreign leaders with any awareness, skill or grace.

its about whether you know what the fuck is going on, how things work, whether you have thought about these issues and thoroughly analyzed the ramifactions of certain choices over others.

"WE can't second guess them, we can't second guess them we can't seond guess them, "

is not only bad foreign policy, but it smacks of Palin having none. She's repeating what her coaches told her to say, and she's even doing that badly.

"His world view"! ??????

Bush Doctrine Palin, it speaks directly to whether or not you have been following foreign affairs in a way that qualifies you for the Vice-Presidency.

Go to war with russia!!!!!!?????

Fanny and Freddie have become too big for the Tax Payers????

"We can see russia from Alaska"

Seriously dude,

you didn't have a point. You had nothing to defend her with, you just decided to try to refocus the subject.

As to those other things that you are chomping at the bit not to discuss Wulfie, what are they and how has she proven she is qualified?

.....................................

Edit to respond to Hero

My acknowledgement of her inexperience and unpreparedness is not a personal attack on Palin,

I think she may be a little out there, but so are alot of people, and I don't think her being out there matters to the base.

What's sad is that it doesn't matter to you that she is not prepared to do the job,

and if there's one thing above others that I find offensive about her, in the same way I found it offensive about Bush, is that inspite of her inadequacies in this area, that's not going to stop her from putting the country in jeapordy for her own betterment.

..............................

And motherfucker you are so full of shit if you are going to tell me you like what you've been hearing from her. I honestly don't even believe you. I didn't need spin to alert me to a real fucking crisis happening in Charlie Gibsons interview, and she has not gotten better!

..........

by the way, why do you repost my comments like that....

taking 'that doesn't bother you' out of context so that you don't have to respond to the content of the question?

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:15 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Hero, I think you hit the nail on the head.

I doubt I'll vote for McCain, or Obama for that matter.

But the truth IMHO, is that neither candidates really deserve to be President.

No one heard of Obama before the Dems trotted him out as the token black guy..he never did anything of any renown before.

McCain got the nod because he played the game, and had a military backround (one in which he aquited himself honorably. Unlike certain Swiftboat folks. Or the current Prez.) Pallin is just the Repubs answer to Hillary.




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Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:18 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


'Hero' gets his talking points straight from team KKKarl Rove / Roger Stone. Why else do you think he spent an entire thread insisting against all fact and opinion that Obama should apologize for something he didn't do ? Out of concern for Obama or his own poor mother's outrage ? It was the exact same tactic Stone used too try and keep that exact same non-point alive. 'Hero''s a political shill with his nose firmly up the repubican party's butt. Don't even bother.

BTW I have some very unflattering opinions about the Palin demographic which I will keep to myself for now. But with a little thought you can probably come to the same conclusion.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:47 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Rue,

Anytime you trot out the "racist" boogey-man..."KKKarl Rove" ect, your argument loses merit.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:58 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


KKKarl Rove may not be personally racist (though he IS a deeply self-hating homophobe) but he is playing up the discomfort many non-Blacks - and that includes Asians and Hispanics as well as Whites - have for a Black candidate. And, you are what you do.

Think about the Palin demographic some more. You'll understand it better.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:22 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Why else do you think he spent an entire thread insisting against all fact and opinion that Obama should apologize for something he didn't do ? Out of concern for Obama or his own poor mother's outrage ?


I noted in that thread that I thought Obama's remarks innocent at best and unintended at worst.

Actually I was commenting on the politics of the situation and his failure to handle it effectively.

People took Obama's comments the wrong way. He fell into the common mistake of defending his remarks (which focused more attention on the remarks then they deserved), which were irrelevant rhetoric, and would have been better served to acknowledge the stepped on feelings of a large number of women. He could have been sensitive to their concerns rather then defensive and dismissive.

Politically, I think it would have served him better.

H

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:38 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"People took Obama's comments the wrong way."

The right-wing echo chamber made them out to be something they were not. And it was then repeated ad nauseum in the 'liberal' media. Generic 'people' had nothing to do with it. And yes, you kept insisting he apologize for something he didn't do. And yes you are a party flak.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


No one heard of Obama before the Dems trotted him out as the token black guy..he never did anything of any renown before.



And no one had ever heard of Palin before she got the nod as the token woman. Seriously, the ONLY reason she's on the ticket is because she has tits, and the Republicans cynically think women will shut their eyes and vote for the one with tits.

What IS Palin's record? What IS her experience? Other than the teleprompter stuff she keeps repeating - over and over and over again - none of which is remotely true - what has she done, and what qualifies her for the job? From what I can see, there's just no "there" there. She's a black hole; she exists, but damned if we can get any information out of her.

I mean, did she at least invent the Blackberry or something? Oh, wait - that was McCane. ;)

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:44 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

He fell into the common mistake of defending his remarks (which focused more attention on the remarks then they deserved)...


There was no "mistake" that I saw, and I didn't see Obama "defend" his remarks. I *DID* see him use the phony furor of the right as an excuse to expand on those remarks, and take another shot or two at the McPain ticket, and get a lot of laughs with it.

I have yet to talk to anyone who was offended by the remarks; everyone I've talked to thought it was funny as hell, even though they were all sure he was taking a dig at Palin. Meanwhile, Obama stole a piece of the word "lipstick" from the opponent - now when it's brought up, you get two images: Sarah Palin's "tough guy" act, and a pig.

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Oh, and it had the added bonus attraction of getting the media asking if the McPain team were really just a bunch of whiny beeyotches, which is true enough...

Far as I can see, Obama's remark only helped him and hurt his opponent.

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 8:16 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
You know that if Palin becomes President for any reason, she will be at the whim of her handlers...



...the same handlers who have told her what to say from the beginning of this circus.

From the 'for what it's worth department'... I have to put in my dos centavos... there are people here who share varying views on the politics and candidates from the two major parties in this election. I think I've made my stance pretty clear - a liberal progressive humanist from an ultra conservative region of the country... (don't get me started..), so I'll agree with you on the dangers of the McCain/Palin ticket... and that's ok.... but, just as you, me and others who share our position, there are probably just as many here who think otherwise - and that's ok too. That freedom to choose what you believe is guaranteed (still, i think - although it takes a real beating sometimes).

Now, choosing wisely - that's where the argument comes in. Everyone likes to think they know shit from shineola and will sometimes go to great lengths to prove their argument superior to the opposing view, when, in truth, the shit they THINK they know may indeed be no better than the shineola they use to polish their argument.

So, when forming your argument or opinion - there are those of us who feel that sticking to the facts as they are presented by one candidate (and party), and weighing those facts, as we perceive them, against the other candidate as well as other factors, not the least of which would be, IMO, the performance of the incumbent party, is the best way to decide.

Then there are those among us who base their opinions on things like tabloid journalism, slanderous ads and innuendoes, and even what Joe Blow down at the local watering hole tells them to think - (btw, this is a whole different issue - people who have the inability to think for themselves, which points back to, I think, what Rue was saying about the Palin demographic).

What I'm saying is this, we can go round and round this argument and work ourselves up over it in an attempt to try to change someone else's mind - or we can simply present the facts as they appear to us and hope that they will become logical to the person who is still new to the political process or who may be yet undecided as to what is the best course for the future of the country. This is certainly a time when the right choice is imperative.


edited

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 10:05 AM

SWISH


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
People are generally tired of Obama, they generally like Palin,

Here's the part that confuses me - you can like her all you want, but how can you possibly be alive and aware in this universe and think that Palin is "generally liked"? Some like her, sure. Some most emphatically do not! And the numbers are growing:

"Palin's favorable rating is at 40 percent, according to a CBS News/New York Times poll. That's down 4 points from last week. Her unfavorable rating is at 30 percent, rising eight points in a week."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/18/palin.appeal/?iref=mpstoryview

Kwicko: I disagree about the "chosen for having tits" issue. That was one part of it certainly, but even an avid Palin hater has to admit that not many first term governors from tiny towns could walk into a national convention, on national TV, and deliver the speech she did. Yes, it disgusted many, but it excited many, and it provided a huge (if temporary, I believe) boost for McCain. I think she was chosen for that speech-giving ability, and for her conservative beliefs.

So let's be clear: many a human being with tits was not chosen as a McCain running mate because they did not have Palin's conservative values, small town background to appeal to moose-eating hicks everywhere, and mostly her remarkable likeness to a mean little dog. (I mean personality-wise, of course! )

That said, she's still a f*cking loon and this selection will make McCain's already slim chances wither and die completely. Is my guess.

Yeah - and how about that email hack? How long will wikileaks be down over this?

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 10:48 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by swish:
"Palin's favorable rating is at 40 percent, according to a CBS News/New York Times poll. That's down 4 points from last week. Her unfavorable rating is at 30 percent, rising eight points in a week."


She's extremely popular in her state...arguably the people who know her best.

Now I can't say people nationwide generally support her. More do then don't, but a heck of a lot of people don't know her. That said people have generally responded positively to her, meaning what they see, they like.

Her choice turned this into a real race. That would not have happened if she was generally disliked. Then she'd have been Joe Bidon.

H

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 11:10 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


well Deadlockvitim, the rub is that even while I'm accusing Hero of being cynical, I think his posts demonstrate often that he is a man who can reason,

so while I wouldn't be making this argument for many of the gut Palin supporters, I don't think Hero is one of them, I think he knew she sounded woefully insufficient on foreign policy issues and others, and he has instead chosen to ignore that truth and paint an entirely different picture...nay not even to paint a picture, just to say that he likes what she says(nonspecific) and that democrats are afraid of her.

And just to clarify one more time, this could be an argument about issues and about Palin's 'facts' but the reality is she didn't bring any 'facts' to the table, she wasn't even prepared to give an argument that her base would support....she fillibustered, she stumbled, she skated around answering things she had no idea about...in essence, she faked it, and I dont think that is quite as open to opinion for anybody.


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Thursday, September 18, 2008 11:23 AM

SWISH


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by swish:
"Palin's favorable rating is at 40 percent, according to a CBS News/New York Times poll. That's down 4 points from last week. Her unfavorable rating is at 30 percent, rising eight points in a week."


She's extremely popular in her state...arguably the people who know her best.

First, this is a national election, and I'm fair sure that the poll numbers Kwicko is referring to in this thread are the national numbers. "Generally liked" in AK gets one a whopping 3 electoral votes, and is pretty much meaningless.

Obama is generally liked in Chicago. Does that convince you of anything?

Also... what's that thing with the bipartisan investigation into abuse of power while governor of AK? And the article written by a resident of Wasilla who's known Palin for years and finds her vindictive and self-serving? Hmm. Not a lot of like there.

Quote:

That said people have generally responded positively to her, meaning what they see, they like.
Have you been watching the news? At all? Besides FOX?

Quote:

Her choice turned this into a real race. That would not have happened if she was generally disliked. Then she'd have been Joe Bidon.
Sure, she did indeed tighten the race, meaning that many people did like her at first glance. She also hugely boosted contributions to Obama, which means that many also disliked her pretty vehemently.

Point is, she is neither generally liked nor generally disliked. She is a very polarizing presence who's brought on strong reactions in both ways, largely because of her "attack dog" convention speech. (Says a lot about how she'd run a government, hmm?)

BTW, now she's cancelling her campaign stops in CA and Washington state. Hmm. Wonder why...


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Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Swish:

Maybe I should modify that statement, and say she was chosen because she's George Bush with tits.

Better?



This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:36 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

BTW, now she's cancelling her campaign stops in CA and Washington state. Hmm. Wonder why...
Prolly doesn't need to bring any more bruised fruit and rotten tomatoes to the family table.


---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 1:12 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Swish:

Maybe I should modify that statement, and say she was chosen because she's George Bush with tits.

Better?


Does that make Joe Bidden, Bill Clinton with tits? At least Bush doesn't have big old man boobs like Clinton. Watching Bubba jog to McDonalds for french fries was one one the scariest parts of his Presidency.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 1:26 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Does that make Joe Bidden, Bill Clinton with tits? At least Bush doesn't have big old man boobs like Clinton. Watching Bubba jog to McDonalds for french fries was one one the scariest parts of his Presidency.


Wow. I mean. Wow. George Bush starts an illegal war, has people tortured, presides over a massive economic crash, and you bitch about Clinton jogging to McDonalds. Wow.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 1:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Item of note:

Been doing my homework on Biden, lately.

I don't care for his affiliation with the Dem party, and some of his financiers, obviously.

But I will concede that is both a very smart and effective politician by my exacting standards and have no objection on that front.

He's fallen on enough rough times to have a bit more humanity to him than others of the established elite and carries with him both a stronger constitutional foundation than most, as well as a certain cynicism and understanding of people as a whole that will usefully offset Obama's idealism if employed properly.

And unlike Palin, he gets shit DONE instead of just doing shit, which is a plus in my book.

I have serious objections to Obama, everyone knows this, and my feelings for McCain/Palin are something you couldn't print in a family magazine, which is also well known...

But Joe does carry my approval, a very begruding and resigned approval, but nonetheless he has it, although I am unlikely to vote that way unless it seems viable as an act of pure self-defense from the nightmare the other party seems damned determined to foist upon us, and to be honest, it may well come to that.

A lotta talk has been uttered recently about folks never changing their minds or positions, and while there is a point to that, it's not completely true.

As dangerous as the gullible pansys who are so terrified of imagined boogeymen can be, as a political force, their own rabid flailing is day by day pushing me closer to the thought of choking down my ire long enough to vote for a candidate I cannot stand as an act of desperate self-defense against the brown-shirted faux-news horde.

And I know for damned sure I ain't the only one.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 2:16 PM

ERIC


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
he gets shit DONE instead of just doing shit



Now there's a campaign slogan we can believe in

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 2:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually I stole it from Dark General Cobalt from Stefan Gagne's "Sailor Nothing."

A fascinating story, btw - and (to me) a bit of an allegory about the truth of some of the stuff folk like PN and I do, which is why were so mentally... different.

It's worth a read, but bring a stiff drink with you.
http://pixelscapes.com/sailornothing/

-Frem
I flipped him a coupla paypal bucks too, it was certainly worth em, but I'd pay even more for a bound version sitting on my shelf.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 3:22 PM

SWISH


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Swish:

Maybe I should modify that statement, and say she was chosen because she's George Bush with tits.

Better?




Well... George Bush and Dick Cheney's bastard love child with tits. That I'd agree to.



Thanks for the input about Biden, Frem. I really haven't had opportunity to figure him out. And no wonder - he's done like 80 press appearances since he got the nod and hardly a one gets headlines. Poor guy. Got substance but who cars? Sarah gets us mad, (at her or at each other) and that's more fun! Well, better headlines.

And by the way, my admission of Palin's strengths is my own attempt to be open-minded. I'm trying.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 5:02 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

A lotta talk has been uttered recently about folks never changing their minds or positions, and while there is a point to that, it's not completely true.

As dangerous as the gullible pansys who are so terrified of imagined boogeymen can be, as a political force, their own rabid flailing is day by day pushing me closer to the thought of choking down my ire long enough to vote for a candidate I cannot stand as an act of desperate self-defense against the brown-shirted faux-news horde.

And I know for damned sure I ain't the only one.

-Frem



People don't usually change their political affiliation unless they always had a tendency toward the other side. Some of us have always suspected that your Anarchist bravado is just an act, and believed you were really a repressed liberal Democrat. Nice to hear you've finally come out of the closet and thrown you support to Obama. Now that the truth has set you free, tell us what you really think.

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Thursday, September 18, 2008 5:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA


My opinion of em hasn't changed, pissant.

They're even MORE incompetent bad guys than the scum who's kool-aid you're drinking cause they don't have evil in their hearts and are always conflicted cause they wanna "do good" without realizing they are just greasing the slippery slope a little more.

And by lying to themselves about their motivations and intentions, combined with at least a half-hearted attempt to at least APPEAR to be playing by the rules, this makes them disorganized and less effective.

And all the easier to hack off at the knees while I go about the business of poisoning the well for both sets of malicious motherfuckers.

Your select brand of scum is only better at it cause they don't even try to hide it no more, don't bother with the pretenses, and conversely have managed to swell the ranks of my people quite significantly - not to mention drive many others to be far more sympathetic to my cause than ever before.

And so I am resorting to the classic american tactic of handling third world countries whom our corporations have an interest in exploiting, by supporting a leader who is easier to sandbag, manipulate or remove if necessary - thus ensuring a less effective resistance against both the means and end point of the plan in mind.

A tactic, mind you, that I stole outright from the folks who's kool-aid YOU are drinking right now.

Just because your own ideology trumps, and often directly conflicts with, the end goals as expressed - which are often as not base lies to begin with when it comes to mainstream parties, don't go projecting your own foolish political naiveties on me.

I have only ONE side in a conflict, mine.

And as often as not, I don't tell you what it is, and you've only my word for it when I do.

And if you trust THAT, you're every bit the fool for drinking my kool-aid as anyone elses.

Why don't you reach down and find a pair for once, and make your own choices, instead of being just one more bullet in tyranny's gun for my people to soak up when the time comes.

Cause at the current point in time, you're just an obstacle to me, no more, and no less.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, September 19, 2008 5:51 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Why don't you reach down and find a pair for once, and make your own choices, instead of being just one more bullet in tyranny's gun for my people to soak up when the time comes.

Cause at the current point in time, you're just an obstacle to me, no more, and no less.

-Frem



I don't think i have much to fear if you and your "Anarchist" buddies are really Obama liberals like I suspect. You will lead the gun confiscation goons door to door at the orders of you supreme leader Obama. Your not an anarchist you're a buffoon like PN, with delusions of grandeur. There's also a good chance the you and PN are one in the same.

Pissant, Ha, you can do better than that Frem/PN.

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Friday, September 19, 2008 6:13 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Rue,

Anytime you trot out the "racist" boogey-man..."KKKarl Rove" ect, your argument loses merit.



You call Obama the "token black guy", and then say others loose credibility by mentioning race?

Could you be any bigger of a hipocritical dickhead?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, September 19, 2008 6:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

A lotta talk has been uttered recently about folks never changing their minds or positions, and while there is a point to that, it's not completely true.

As dangerous as the gullible pansys who are so terrified of imagined boogeymen can be, as a political force, their own rabid flailing is day by day pushing me closer to the thought of choking down my ire long enough to vote for a candidate I cannot stand as an act of desperate self-defense against the brown-shirted faux-news horde.

And I know for damned sure I ain't the only one.

-Frem



People don't usually change their political affiliation unless they always had a tendency toward the other side. Some of us have always suspected that your Anarchist bravado is just an act, and believed you were really a repressed liberal Democrat. Nice to hear you've finally come out of the closet and thrown you support to Obama. Now that the truth has set you free, tell us what you really think.





Hello Kirkules,

It seems to me that someone has stated their intention to choose the lesser of two evils...

And it seems to me that you are upset that your candidate is not perceived as the lesser evil.

If someone says they would rather not drown, and then they say they hate being burned, and follow that by saying that they would prefer to drown than to be burned to death.... would you then rise up and decry them as a drowning-loving hippocrite?

Such thinking implies a limited scope of thought. I also think you are demonstrating a very skewed view of Frem's philosophies. It may stoke your ire that he saw your candidate as slightly worse than the other guy, but that does not imply he wants to marry the other guy and have his babies.

That kind of argument is the kind that destroys rational debate and intelligent discussion, in my humble opinion.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, September 19, 2008 6:27 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Story,

Mentioning race is NOT the same as calling someone KKK, neo-nazi ect...I guess they didn't teach you that at PC Liberal School, huh?

"Could you be any bigger of a hipocritical dickhead?"

I guess I could be, if I tried. But then I would be in your league (of total hypocritical dickheads)....not really someplace I care to be.

Now fuck off back to the cornfield, Story. It's way past your bedtime.


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Friday, September 19, 2008 6:36 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

That kind of argument is the kind that destroys rational debate and intelligent discussion, in my humble opinion.

--Anthony



Anthony, you've been around here long enough to know that "rational debate" is a rare thing around here. My literary skills limit my ability to take part in "intelligent discussion", but I know bullshit when I hear it and Frem pushes it on us constantly under the guise of "Anarchism". I think part of the "Real World" discussion here is calling out BS when you hear it.

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Friday, September 19, 2008 6:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

That kind of argument is the kind that destroys rational debate and intelligent discussion, in my humble opinion.

--Anthony



Anthony, you've been around here long enough to know that "rational debate" is a rare thing around here. My literary skills limit my ability to take part in "intelligent discussion", but I know bullshit when I here it and Frem pushes it on us constantly under the guise of "Anarchism". I think part of the "Real World" discussion here is calling out BS when you here it.



Hello,

Well, calling out B.S. when you see it is indeed germaine to adult discussion, preferably when done politely.

But I really don't see how you can label Frem as a Liberal or Democrat or anything approaching the 'government please watch over us' mentality.

A similar analogy woud be how I registered Republican this year so that I could vote for Ron Paul. But the Republicans only share a small handful of my ideals. I left my independent comfort zone to vote Republican this one time, but I do not think, by and large, I am a Republican thinker.

In my opinion, the Republicans stomp on more freedoms than they uphold. The Democrats uphold most freedoms, most of the time, but neglect the one that I believe secures the rest. It's very irritating.


--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, September 19, 2008 6:46 AM

TANKOBITE


Here, here. Poll are effing useless people. If I polled 1000 people in LA vs 1000 people at Leavenworth, KS for example, think they might be different?

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Friday, September 19, 2008 6:46 AM

TANKOBITE


Double bloody posts.

I hate politics on the internet...

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Friday, September 19, 2008 2:17 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

The Democrats uphold most freedoms, most of the time, but neglect the one that I believe secures the rest. It's very irritating.

Partial agreement, I wouldn't say most though, I would say they uphold more of them, but less important ones.

And it's very bloody irritating.

And when it comes to certain things, I ain't gonna be polite, I ain't gonna be nice, it's too goddamn late for nice - and look where it's fucking got us to ?

I intend to be as ruthless as need be to get it done and right now that's a damn lot of it.

Part of yon kool-aid chuggers problem is that I don't think his rusty, disused, black and white thought process is capable of wrapping itself around the concept of political sabotage in spite of the fact that it seems to be all his preferred party does even over and above their intended function.

I submit to you this text of concept from Bob Jackson.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/81/jackson/jackson1.html

EXCERPT.

Granted, there are ways to act defensively while damaging the system such as running away. But these are clearly more dangerous paths. Nor are all choices mutually exclusive. A slave could both choose an overseer and attempt to run away, thus increasing his odds of survival if he’s captured in the escape attempt, thus making an attempt equal in effectiveness – if successful -- to the slave who would only choose non-cooperation and running away as tactics. It is even arguable that the former is more effective at undermining the institution, as a "deceitful slave" might impose a greater economic cost in the form of risk than the predictable ethical "non-voting" type.

You can vote as an act of aggression. You can also vote in self-defense. If you are assaulted, you can flee the person. If cornered, you can choose to dodge the blow. If unable to dodge the blow, you might choose to block or deflect the attack. A proportional defensive counter-attack may even be of order. And while it’s perfectly laudable that a person can choose fleeing or dodging as their personal range of moral choices, the choice is exactly that -- personal instead of universal. Aggression requires intent. Self-defense is the strategic root. Voting is a tactic.


In short, if you got to *choose* who is going to attack you - wouldn't the course of wisdom be to choose the less aggressive, less competent foe ?

As a coda, there's no way in hell imma take pure malicious sophistry nicely from a shitheel that tried to shovel the concept that the rich pay so much tax and the poor almost none, on a day I was fucking starving cause I couldn't afford food in spite of working a fifty hour week due to the fact that an independant contractor in this job that both local (Engler) and national politicians have virtually destroyed which carries a tax bite of almost forty fucking percent of the total income BEFORE expenses...

And the hell if imma take it with the girl having been laid up and desperately ill recently and a ton of fucking bills her insurance company is trying to skip out of in spite of being contractually bound to cover.

Call me petty if you like, but when people who don't have to soak up their impact support policies that are gutting my ability to fucking survive, much less prosper, I take that as an act of violence against me personally.

Especially coming from a fucking hypocrite who might actually stand with me if they tried to confiscate my pistol, but doesn't seem to have any problem with them confiscating my money.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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