REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

700 Billion Bailout

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 19:47
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Saturday, September 20, 2008 4:27 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/20/news/economy/bailout_proposal/index.ht
m?postversion=2008092009



I want you guys to think about this...If the government owns the free market, it owns you. Its not a joke, or even remotely funny. The U.S. government will now control much of Wall Street, and most of of the housing market.

National Socialism anyone? Thats EXACTLY what this is.

And, where the fuck are we going to get this money? Borrowing from China? or Iraq?

THIS HAS GOT TO STOP


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Saturday, September 20, 2008 5:31 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Indeed.

Although I don't agree with a lot of ISIL's other goings on, this flyer sums it up well.
http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/end-tax-slavery.html

Which ties in quite well with the thoughts of L. Neil Smith on the subject, concerning the idea of how that ties into another issue.
http://www.jpfo.org/smith/smith-herefords.htm

"There are a great many individuals today, both in government and in the think-tanks and foundations that constitute their intellectual bodyguard, who look down on you and me and our families as livestock. The only thing they want from us is silent, compliant labor, so that they can take whatever we earn away from us and use it as they desire. Some of it they use against us in various ways to keep us silent and compliant.

Listen to them closely and you'll hear that we might as well be different species. They are an elite -- near demigods who are above everything, including the law. We are less than nothing, of no concern to them except for the tasks we perform and the wealth we create for them to steal. If some of us can play the violin, create beautiful paintings or sculptures, or bring audiences to tears with our singing or acting, those are just "stupid pet tricks" without real value or significance."


Isn't it funny how folks all so willing to stand up and fight back when others speak of confiscating their weapons, are so unwilling to stand up and fight back when others speak of confiscating their money ?

I think it's high time we applied the same damn principle behind our weapons, to our wallets.

MOLON LABE !
(Means: Come and TAKE it/them from me, for thems not familiar with the term.)

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 5:40 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


National Socialism anyone? Thats EXACTLY what this is.


But, ummm, Bush is doing this, isn't he, like, your guy, Wulf?

isall

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 5:58 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
But, ummm, Bush is doing this, isn't he, like, your guy, Wulf?


Bush is far right wing.

The Nazi's were far right wing.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 6:16 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


National Socialism anyone? Thats EXACTLY what this is.


But, ummm, Bush is doing this, isn't he, like, your guy, Wulf?

You need to stop fixating on Bush. It’s like you have some sort of repressed gay-love for him.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 6:28 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/20/news/economy/bailout_proposal/index.ht
m?postversion=2008092009



I want you guys to think about this...If the government owns the free market, it owns you. Its not a joke, or even remotely funny. The U.S. government will now control much of Wall Street, and most of of the housing market.

National Socialism anyone? Thats EXACTLY what this is.

And, where the fuck are we going to get this money? Borrowing from China? or Iraq?

THIS HAS GOT TO STOP


First this is not national socialism – making retarded statements like that does nothing but bring out the lunatic-fringe. Now you're going to have idiots pull the stupid Hitler comparison – oh, too late.

I haven’t looked at Bush’s bailout plane, but my initial judgment is that I’m not real psyched about it. I don’t think we want to reward bad investors or create an institution of speculating against the government or unnecessarily widen government intrusion. Which is kind of what I think this does.

First of all, we shouldn’t be propping up failing enterprises, but rather the government should step in to provide an orderly and judicious system to their acquisition or restructuring.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 6:31 AM

CITIZEN


Hey I only said it because it winds up the real idiots around here, makes them start calling people names, trying to hide the fact that they really are stupid...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 6:48 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:


I haven’t looked at Bush’s bailout plan, but my initial judgment is that I’m not real psyched about it.

You need to stop fixating on Bush. It’s like you have some sort of repressed gay-love for him.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 6:59 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:


I haven’t looked at Bush’s bailout plan, but my initial judgment is that I’m not real psyched about it.

You need to stop fixating on Bush. It’s like you have some sort of repressed gay-love for him.

That's pretty stupid, even for you.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You need to stop fixating on Bush.
Why? He IS the cause of all this, AND he's the one "fixing" it. Why should we ignore him? So he can get a free pass on his horrific policies?

You really should stop enabling him.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:03 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

You need to stop fixating on Bush.
Why? He IS the cause of all this, AND he's the one "fixing" it. Why should we ignore him? So he can get a free pass on his horrific policies?

You really should stop enabling him.

And that's even stupider.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

And, where the fuck are we going to get this money? Borrowing from China? or Iraq?



Sadly, we're going to print it. I actually heard one of the Federal Reserve officials say in an interview, when asked if the government might run out of money to bail out these failing corporations, "The government isn't going to run out of money. We have the Federal Reserve, and the mints, and we own the printing presses."

He said it serioiusly, too. His grasp of the situation ranks him right up there with a typical 16-year-old saying, "I can't be out of money; I still have checks in my checkbook!"

I fear for my country's future...

Mike




This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:10 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And that's even stupider.


Now that's really stupid!



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Whatever, Finn.

BTW, what Bush is doing is technically closer to fascism than national socialism. Have you looked up the definition of fascism lately?
Quote:


Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism,

check
Quote:

militarism
check
Quote:

totalitarianism
getting there
Quote:

dictatorship
two stolen elections
Quote:

class collaboration
check
Quote:

populism
the phony kind
Quote:

collectivism
not yet
Quote:

statism
check
Quote:

social interventionism
religion in government, check,
Quote:

economic planning
getting there
Quote:

Fascist governments nationalized key industries, made massive state investments, and partially abolished property rights and markets. They also introduced price controls and other types of economic planning measures. Fascists promoted their ideology as a "third way" between capitalism and Marxian socialism.

Although fascism used a kind of faux populism, in fact the class that benefited most from fascism was the elite.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:12 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


$700-Billion bailout is multiplied by 100 = $70-Trillion bailout of foreign derivatives.

Counterfeiting $70-trillion in funny money will guarantee hyper inflation.

This proves that insurance annuity "pensions" are NOT insured. Though AIG annuities got damn lucky at our expense. Until the next crash.

Get ready to say byebye to the private Federal Reserve Debt Note (so-called "US dollar"), hello to the Mexican-Canadian Amerodollar.




Note the Fascist fasci (bundle of sticks)

Quote:

The Death of Three Nations

2006

Corporate Greed…

First, let’s take a look at the wage gap between CEOs and non-management employees. In 1980, the average pay for a corporate executive officer was 42 times that of the average employee compensation (42:1). In 2004, the ratio was 431:1. In other words, the gap had widened by slightly over a thousand percent. This was actually a drop from a high of 531:1 in 1999. A one hundred point drop is significant, but the gap remains far too wide.

CEOs generally hold considerable sway over corporate board members, and therefore exercise a tremendous amount of control over their own compensation. In 2004, Yahoo’s Chief Executive Terry Semel raked in $230.6 million dollars in total compensation. That works out to $631,780.83 per day. How many of you reading this earn 600 G’s per day? Per year? Per decade?

I’m not singling Terry out of a crowd. But this is a good example of the extravagance of corporate pay packages. Let’s say some CEO earns $100 million per year. That’s $273,972.60 per day. If we cut his pay to “only” $50 million per year, that’s still one hundred thirty-six thousand dollars per day. One would think that he could scrape by on that amount, although he might be forced to keep his old yacht an extra year before trading it in. Oh… the hardship!

The other $50 million could be pumped into the company’s retirement fund, paid out in dividends to shareholders, or maybe even (gasp!) used to finance a pay raise for employees. Assuming this theoretical company has 5000 employees, that’d be a ten thousand dollar a year pay increase for each of them.

www.nationalledger.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=1&num=6405


Jew Warren Buffet, owner of GEICO Govt Employee Insurance Corp (CIA) paid himself a $30-Billion personal salary, tax free, in one year, as reward for his part in the $90-billion 9/11 insurance fraud conspiracy. On 9/11 Buffet was "coincidentally" playing golf with all the CEOs of World Trade Center at Strategic Air Command HQ, in his snuff kiddie porn capital of Omaha Nebraska (The Franklin Coverup), then Jr Bush flew to meet Buffet at SAC HQ, before flying to the White House on the night of 9/11. Buffet's NetJet was stalking a robotic Flight 93 when USAF mutiny shot it down on 9/11. So Buffet paid himself a personal income of $82-MILLION PER DAY that year, tax-free.

Warren Buffet gives away his fortune to himself and his tax-free foundation
http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/25/magazines/fortune/charity1.fortune/







North American Union replaces USA
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/268

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:13 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Hey I only said it because it winds up the real idiots around here, makes them start calling people names, trying to hide the fact that they really are stupid...

Yes, I know that’s why you do it. That’s also why chris and Signym fixate on Bush. You’re all always trying to start a fight. But you have to devote a lot of energy to a fight, and I don't have that kind of energy right now.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You really should stop enabling him.-Signy

And that's even stupider.-Finn

Finn, when it comes to Bush's most disasterous policies, you haven't said "boo!". Starting with tax cuts and "trickle down" economics, moving right along with massive deregulation, an expensive and useless war, and frantic government borrowing... all set the stage for the current crisis. Where were YOU when this was all going on? As I recall, you were rationalizing and making excuses, mostly.

Maybe I'm unfairly tarring your opinion on Bush's economic policies with your opinion on the Iraq war (which has been blind followership, as far as I can tell). If so, let me know what your real opinions were on the above policies and I'll apologize.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:20 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
He said it serioiusly, too. His grasp of the situation ranks him right up there with a typical 16-year-old saying, "I can't be out of money; I still have checks in my checkbook!"

Not really. Printing more money is on option for solving these kinds of problems. It gets you out of little jams like this; it’s just not something you want to do a lot.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:27 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes, I know that’s why you do it. That’s also why chris and Signym fixate on Bush. You’re all always trying to start a fight. But you have to devote a lot of energy to a fight, and I don't have that kind of energy right now.


Now this is exceedingly stupid, but:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Not really. Printing more money is on option for solving these kinds of problems. It gets you out of little jams like this; it’s just not something you want to do a lot.


Stupid doesn't even cover this...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:29 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Much as folks ain't gonna give credit cause of carrying grudges from other threads in here, I do believe Wulfie has a point.

But the key here, Wulf, is there is more than one brand of that Kool-aid, you see.

While I file many policies of the Democratic party under National Socialism, and in fact closer to the actual MEANING of the term than Adolphs little pack of lip-service goons ever was, it basically encompasses the ideal of the State being held forth as superior to the individual, which is in opposition to the American Concept of self-liberty.

This is not so much an example of that kind of policy, remember, more than one flavor, right ?

This kind of thing is the other end of the Fascist spectrum, as are many Republican party policies, as embodied in Mussolinis ideal of the marriage of Corporate and State power into a single, unified whole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fascism

I don't have much truck with either one, nor the bloody handed flavor of Rivera and Franco either, especially since my spiritual ancestors fell against them while the good ole US of A was supporting the bastards because the Socialists, Communists, Anarchists and Trade Unions scared the American money elite pissless, and the Fascists were hacking them off at the knees.

Only at the very end were they thrown any kind of support, and even then less than five years later McCarthy and company started hounding them some more.

That's not to say I think any of those systems would work in practice any better than what we have now, *IF* we were to stick to the principles it's based on, which we have not for a very long time.

I just wanted to clarify that yes, this is a somewhat Fascist thing to do, it's not the same flavor of such a thing as National Socialism, but much closer to ole Benito's style.

Don't let the Fascist tendancies of one party blind you to the Fascist tendancies of the other, cause right now we got the Dems wanting to play Adolph, and the Reps wanting to play Benito, and to *ME* - not a dimes worth of difference between the two other than the fact that the Dems aren't really all that good at it.

History is both a fascinating and extremely useful subject concerning things like this, which is why I use the sigline that I do.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:35 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Not really. Printing more money is on option for solving these kinds of problems. It gets you out of little jams like this; it’s just not something you want to do a lot.



Yes, because when Canadians are referring to our currency as "American pesos", and the dollar has lost 30% or more of it value in the last few years as we wildly overprinted and overspent, what you really want to do is print up another quick trillion or so to flood the market and further devalue your currency. After all, if we're already spending close to a trillion to bail out failing companies, what's another trillion on top of that to shore up their further losses when we devalue the dollar even more?

EC





If the prefix "pro-" means "for" or "in favor of", and "con" is its opposite, and if "progress" means "pushing forward" or "improving"... then what the hell does "Congress" mean?

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:36 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Note the Fascist fasci (bundle of sticks)

PN, I don't think anyone else here has the historical background to recognize that, to be honest with you.

But yes, that is indeed the fasci, and in fact the exact same design of one as the flag flown by Mussolinis government, only without the axe.

And I was gettin to that, Siggy, you know I was, you thunder stealin wench, lol

-F

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:45 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
But yes, that is indeed the fasci, and in fact the exact same design of one as the flag flown by Mussolinis government, only without the axe.

Actually they're the Fasces lictoriae and they come from Ancient Rome, and were the symbol of the Roman Republic. I imagine the US uses them because the American Republic was based on the Roman one, while Mussolini used it because his plan was to rebuild the Roman empire. It's not a fascist symbol at all, neither was the Swastika actually.

There's a lot of Roman symbolism in the US, the Eagle for instance.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 8:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Finn... Ah yes, where were we???
Quote:

You really should stop enabling him.-Signy

And that's even stupider.-Finn

Finn, when it comes to Bush's most disastrous policies, you haven't said "boo!". Starting with tax cuts and "trickle down" economics, moving right along with massive deregulation, an expensive and useless war, and frantic government borrowing... all set the stage for the current crisis. Where were YOU when this was all going on? As I recall, you were rationalizing and making excuses, mostly. Maybe I'm unfairly tarring your opinion on Bush's economic policies with your opinion on the Iraq war (which has been blind followership, as far as I can tell). If so, let me know what your real opinions were on the above policies and I'll apologize.-Signy

So, am I wrong?


---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 8:38 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So, am I wrong?

Probably, but why do you insist upon making this discussion about me?




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 8:46 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So, am I wrong?

Probably, but why do you insist upon making this discussion about me?


This is fairly dumb



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 8:47 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

I haven’t looked at Bush’s bailout plane, but my initial judgment is that I’m not real psyched about it. I don’t think we want to reward bad investors or create an institution of speculating against the government or unnecessarily widen government intrusion. Which is kind of what I think this does.

First of all, we shouldn’t be propping up failing enterprises, but rather the government should step in to provide an orderly and judicious system to their acquisition or restructuring.


I completely agree with you, and I'm sure Bush does also. I think Bernanke and Paulson convinced him that the the erosion of confidence in the financial system after a few money market funds announced their funds were only worth 97cents on the dollar forced his hand. We can be sure that both this plan and the Freddi/Fannie plan will result in these entities disappearing entirely in not to many years. The plan is to have the Fed take over these companies and mortgage securities and dissolve them as soon as the free market will allow. That's why it's now more important than ever to keep the Dems out of power. If Obama wins, these government entities will be perpetuated forever and result in what Wulfenstar fears most, the socialization of another 10% of our economy.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 8:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Probably, but why do you insist upon making this discussion about me?
Because you're bright and worth talking to. So show me how I'm wrong.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 8:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Kirk... you really don't get it, do you?

The system was within ONE DAY of panic.

How do I know???


Because usually they do the big stuff on the weekends... bailing out Freddie and Fannie, Lehman declaring bankruptcy etc.


The financial institutions are only 5-10% capitalized. NONE of them could w/stand a run.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 9:10 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Kirk... you really don't get it, do you?

The system was within ONE DAY of panic.

How do I know???


Because usually they do the big stuff on the weekends... bailing out Freddie and Fannie, Lehman declaring bankruptcy etc.


The financial institutions are only 5-10% capitalized. NONE of them could w/stand a run.

---------------------------------


I agree with you completely. I don't think there's anything in what I said that suggests anything different. When I referred to the problem in money market funds I was suggesting that a run on the banks could have been imminent.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 9:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:


I haven’t looked at Bush’s bailout plan, but my initial judgment is that I’m not real psyched about it.

You need to stop fixating on Bush. It’s like you have some sort of repressed gay-love for him.

That's pretty stupid, even for you.


Your last few posts were stupid, especially for you. You say I fixate on Bush, and your very next post is ABOUT BUSH. Amazing how peeps allow only for themselves in a conversation.

You've been in a meltdown for days now- you used to make a great deal of sense & argue logically.
I look forward to the return of the old Finn; this new one vexes me.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 9:59 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Much as folks ain't gonna give credit cause of carrying grudges from other threads in here, I do believe Wulfie has a point.


Oh, no, I totally agree; he does.

Chrisiswithya

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 10:24 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Your last few posts were stupid, especially for you. You say I fixate on Bush, and your very next post is ABOUT BUSH. Amazing how peeps allow only for themselves in a conversation.

My next post wasn’t about Bush. It was about the issue of the bail out. That's what I mean by fixating on Bush. That's all you think about. You see the word "Bush" and you fixate on it to the detriment of everything else. That is not healthy, dude. That is sad.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 10:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/20/news/economy/bailout_proposal/index.ht
m?postversion=2008092009



I want you guys to think about this...If the government owns the free market, it owns you. Its not a joke, or even remotely funny. The U.S. government will now control much of Wall Street, and most of of the housing market.

National Socialism anyone? Thats EXACTLY what this is.

And, where the fuck are we going to get this money? Borrowing from China? or Iraq?

THIS HAS GOT TO STOP




I agree.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 10:43 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
My next post wasn’t about Bush.

"I haven’t looked at Bush’s bailout plane, but my initial judgment is that I’m not real psyched about it."

It was about BUSH'S bailout, and hey- it's not really even HIS plan, some other folk came up with it, he's just pushing it, so in effect YOU are obsessing more than I am over the dude...that is sad.

PS: you earned this-
Bush’s bailout plane

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!



No more para-chuteisall

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 10:51 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
My next post wasn’t about Bush.

"I haven’t looked at Bush’s bailout plane, but my initial judgment is that I’m not real psyched about it."

It was about BUSH'S bailout, and hey- it's not really even HIS plan, some other folk came up with it, he's just pushing it, so in effect YOU are obsessing more than I am over the dude...that is sad.

Like I said, you see the word “Bush” and nothing else gets through to you. You could have commented on why I don’t like the current solution concerning bailing out failed enterprises. You could have commented on my view of what I think should be done about it. All of which would have contributed to the debate or at least been on topic. But instead you insist up on forcing the issue to be about your hatred of Bush. That’s not healthy. It just makes you uninteresting. I don’t know why you can’t see that.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 1:26 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Or you could have commented on what kind of plane it is that Bush is supposed to be bailing out of.

His dad had a fondness for the old Grumman Avenger torpedo bomber, and bailed out of one of those one time. Bush the Younger seems to be looking for the ejector seat in Air Force One. He knows it's there, because he saw it in the movie!

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 2:14 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Fred,

Im looking at setting up a table/booth on election day. Something to remind people that there is more than the 2 party choice. (Go Ron Paul!)

I'm in V.A. Do you happen to know what the rules are in something like this? I mean, every voting season I see Nader or laRouche people there so it can't be that hard...

I know it isn't much...but I've got to do something.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 4:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm pretty much writing off any 3rd-party candidates this time around, but I'm going to start supporting them at the local and state levels - Anarchist, Libertarian, Green - whatever; maybe getting a few more in the smaller offices can help us stir shit up a bit at the higher levels!

Mike




This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 4:16 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm pretty much writing off any 3rd-party candidates this time around,
Mike


I think you're right Kwicko. I made the mistake of voting for Ross Perot as a protest vote and regret it to this day. Not because Clinton was elected, but because I feel like I threw away my vote when it could have made a difference. Bush Sr. is a good man and he deserved my vote, but I thought he had it locked up so I voted for Perot. I vote for Libertarian candidates in local elections whenever I get a chance and hope someday there will be a viable Libertarian running for President.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 4:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Funny, I voted for Perot, too. People have this image of me as a dead-dog democrat, which I find greatly amusing - especially because I never voted for Clinton. Either of them.

So you tend to lean to the right, I tend to lean to the left (okay, FAR left), and we still manage to find some common ground.

Sounds like the beginnings of a movement to me.

Let's get going right now - Libertarians 2012!! I've got a feeling we're going to need them then more than ever. And we're going to need all the help we can get.

Who's in?

Mike




This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 4:33 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So you tend to lean to the right, I tend to lean to the left (okay, FAR left), and we still manage to find some common ground.

Mike


That's the great thing about the Libertarian Party, I can be pro-life and you can be pro-choice, but as long as we both agree it's none of the Government's business we all get along great.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 4:43 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
That's the great thing about the Libertarian Party, I can be pro-life and you can be pro-choice, but as long as we both agree it's none of the Government's business we all get along great.


Kirk, you just made my night! America the beautiful!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 4:52 PM

SERGEANTX


Nevermind

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Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

I'm in V.A. Do you happen to know what the rules are in something like this?

Wulf, unfortunately this presumes they would respect the rules as well, and after Miami, after the RNC - do you really expect that they will ?

If yer gonna do it, contact just about any voters rights group and they can give you the specifics, although a lot of those laws are written in such a vague fashion they can be re-interpreted on the spot - and make damn sure to have audio and visual recording the whole time, preferably relay-porting it to something they cannot physically take from you and destroy or "lose" should they decide to kick over your table and assault you.

Might be worth a shot to contact Bev Harris's folk too down at Black Box Voting, cause they're pretty sharp on the related laws and whatnot.

My advice, don't do it unless you're willing to be arrested, beaten, and harrassed for a while after - cause it's all too likely that'll happen, and make your peace with being put on a "list" too.
Quote:

That's the great thing about the Libertarian Party, I can be pro-life and you can be pro-choice, but as long as we both agree it's none of the Government's business we all get along great.

Amen!

Although Barr isn't exactly what I would consider a sterling example of the Libertarian ideal, alas...

I honestly think the Libertarians can do better than him for a front man, any suggestions on that front ?

I'd suggest L. Neil Smith, but to tell ya the truth, the man is far closer to an Anarchist than a Libertarian.

I'd vote for him though (provided he had a running mate with substantial experience), that oughta tell ya something.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, September 21, 2008 3:51 AM

SWISH


OK, I'm in a quandry. Don't want to economy to tank, but this whole thing scares the crap out of me. Is this solution worse than the problem?

The following from http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2008/09/now_we_see_it_the_white_house.h
tml#more


Now We See It: The White House Bailout Proposal

I would guess that this has to be one of the biggest peacetime transfers of power from Congress to the Administration in history. (Anyone know?). Certainly one of the most concise.

The Treasury Secretary can buy broadly defined assets, on any terms he wants, he can hire anyone he wants to do it and can appoint private sector companies as financial deputies of the US government. And he can write whatever regulation he thinks are needed.

I understand that they wanted freedom to respond and an ability to move quickly, but to designate the Treasury Secretary full power to oversee the, uh, Treasury Secretary's decisions seems unusual. Especially given that Congress only gets a report twice a year:

Within three months of the first exercise of the authority granted in section 2(a), and semiannually thereafter, the Secretary shall report to the Committees on the Budget, Financial Services, and Ways and Means of the House of Representatives and the Committees on the Budget, Finance, and Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs of the Senate with respect to the authorities exercised under this Act and the considerations required by section 3.

This graph really stands out:

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

Whoa.

So, for the next three months, and then an additional six months after that, the Treasury Secretary can do anything he deems appropriate without anybody anywhere looking it over.

That seems like an awful lot of absolute power. Am I wrong? Is this typical bureaucratic langauge? Or is this as strange as it seems?


edit: I should point out that everything under the underlined title is from the article, and not me talking. Though I agree with the sentiment.

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Sunday, September 21, 2008 4:08 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by swish:

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

Whoa.

So, for the next three months, and then an additional six months after that, the Treasury Secretary can do anything he deems appropriate without anybody anywhere looking it over.

That seems like an awful lot of absolute power. Am I wrong? Is this typical bureaucratic langauge? Or is this as strange as it seems?


Normally this type of language would be a deal breaker in any legislation, but Hank Paulson is highly respected on both sides of the isle and in the financial community. He is also friends with the Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee (D)Barney Frank. Paulson has been in charge of a lot more money than this as Chief Executive Officer at Goldman Sachs and proved himself honest and capable.

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Sunday, September 21, 2008 4:35 AM

SERGEANTX


This smacks of "temporary" emergency measures that will be anything but temporary. Why?

Response from the original article:

Quote:

Question: Is it possible to use this disaster as a step toward solving the larger issue of the vast discrepanacy between rich and poor?
I do not want to see my taxes used to sustain or re-establish the grossly inequitable status quo ante. Some proportionality should be observed; let those most responsible for the disaster bear the biggest share of the tax burden to fix it.



People are already beginning to realize the vast transfer of power that's going on - and making plans for how to use it.


SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, September 21, 2008 4:54 AM

SWISH


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Normally this type of language would be a deal breaker in any legislation, but Hank Paulson is highly respected on both sides of the isle and in the financial community. He is also friends with the Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee (D)Barney Frank. Paulson has been in charge of a lot more money than this as Chief Executive Officer at Goldman Sachs and proved himself honest and capable.

One of the fundamental tenets of law-making, as I understand it, is to never ever justify laws based on a single personality. Do you really not see the danger in that?

As Sergeant says, this may not stay a temporary measure. (How about those "emergency acts" after 9/11? How much of those erosions in our freedom have gone away?) And please note - this bill gives power to the office of the "Treasury Secretary", not to "Hank Paulson". That office might be filled by god-knows-who someday. Do you really want to risk that? Even if this is allowed to expire, do you really want to set this kind of precedent, of giving dictatorial power, a complete free pass, to one individual?

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Sunday, September 21, 2008 6:10 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I do not like the transfer of unreviewable power to any department.

On the other hand, I would not like the transfer of power to any individual, either.

Can you imagine how you would feel if a law was passed that gave X power to "George Bush" instead of "the President?" We can always impeach the Pres, ya know? I'm sure we could replace the Treasury Secretary, too. But the only way to get rid of 'person Y' is to hire a hitman.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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