REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Georgian Invasion of S Ossetia

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, October 11, 2008 08:45
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Thursday, October 9, 2008 2:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


From the Christian Science Monitor

Quote:

Tskhinvali, South Ossetia - In a speech before the United Nations last month, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili implored world leaders to set up an international investigation to find out the truth about the war in South Ossetia.

I couldn't agree more. But I think the results of an honest investigation would reveal a very different "truth" than what President Saakashvili claims.

I know this because I was in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, on Aug. 7 when Georgian troops marched into the city and killed my friends and neighbors. I huddled with my family in terror for three nights while Saakashvili's tanks and rockets destroyed hundreds of our homes, desecrated cemeteries, gutted schools and hospitals. I also have good reason not to trust what Saakashvili says. For three days before the attack I had been getting calls from many Georgian friends warning me to get out. They said Saakashvili was planning an attack. Most of the Georgians living in South Ossetia left because they knew what was coming.

On the night of Aug. 7, Saakashvili went on television and assured the frightened civilian population of South Ossetia that he would not attack us. This was long after the time Saakashvili now claims Russians had begun "invading" Georgia.

Ossetians went to bed relieved and thankful for a peaceful night.

Less than two hours later, according to credible international accounts, his artillery, bombers, and three brigades of ground troops unleashed what I can only describe as a fierce hell on our city. In the moment, we knew only our fear as we hid. Afterward I spoke with hundreds of Ossetians to find out what was done to us.

My friend's elderly father tried to douse the flames set by Georgian fire on the home he had built with his hands. His leg was severed by shrapnel from Georgian weapons. He bled to death while his disabled wife crawled from their burning home.

Ossetians saw Georgian tanks firing into basements where women and children hid for safety They saw fleeing families shot down by Georgian snipers. We learned that the Georgian military had used Grad rocket systems and cluster bombs against Tskhinvali.

Yes, I would very much like to see an international commission investigate the truth of what happened.

When I came out from hiding, thanking God that the Russians had saved our lives, I was dismayed by the reaction of the international media to what had happened. There was nothing about Ossetian deaths and the unprovoked horrors inflicted by Saakashvili's military. It made my heart sick.

The truth has been crushed by Georgia's powerful public relations machine as mercilessly as Georgian tanks rolled over the defenseless civilians of Tskhinvali.

I know that Americans are a generous and fair people. But Americans haven't been told the truth about what happened to us. Americans don't understand that Ossetians are an independent, Christian Orthodox people with a deep history in our land. The world talks only about Georgian freedom. What of freedom for my people? Does our suffering, do our voices, mean nothing?

I don't blame the Georgian people for what happened to us. The vast number of Ossetians and Georgians want to live in peace. I blame Georgia's leaders.

Saakashvili has persuaded the world that he is a "beacon" of democracy and openness. But he won't even tell his own people the truth. My Georgian friends weren't allowed to see any Russian news sites during the conflict because all of those sites were blocked by Saakashvili's government.

I know we are a small people, and I make no claim to understanding the experts in geopolitics with their theories and pronouncements about the great powers. But I have fought for women's rights in Ossetia for 12 years and I believe in the truth.

In a recent article, Saakashvili cynically dismissed Ossetian suffering and deaths because, he said, Russia had "lied" about how many of my people were killed by the Georgian military.

It breaks my heart to even engage in this discussion. No one – including Saakashvili – knows how many Ossetians were killed by his Army. I have friends who buried loved ones in their backyards because there were no alternatives. Many people are still missing.

Does Saakashvili believe his vicious attack on a civilian city was justified if he only killed a few hundred rather than a few thousand? Do Americans realize that a military trained and equipped by the US government attacked a civilian population as they slept in their beds? Can they justify sending another billion dollars to Georgia and nothing for those Georgia attacked?

I have made an urgent appeal to the world for humanitarian relief for our people at the website helpossetianow.org. I beg the United States and the world to find out the truth. Please hear our voices.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20081008/cm_csm/ytskhovrebova;_ylt=Aj.LK0F
M6kGvAa5IqKP39cGs0NUE


• Lira Tskhovrebova is the founder of the Association of South Ossetian Women for Democracy and Human Rights and has worked for more than a decade to improve relations between people of Georgian and Ossetian descent in the Caucasus.



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Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:08 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


So you would have supported the Confederacy in the War Between the States? After all, that was basically an invasion and subjugation of breakaway regions by their previous government.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


"Supported" is too strong of a term. Let's say I might not have opposed it... while still opposing slavery.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Except the Confederacy was the first to open fire on a military target while the Union forces were defending themselves.

In the case of Ossetia the Union (Georgia) attacked a civilian target first.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Defense is required. I might not have expanded the Civil War beyond that. And defense of S Ossetia is also required, which is what happened.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:39 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Except the Confederacy was the first to open fire on a military target while the Union forces were defending themselves.

In the case of Ossetia the Union (Georgia) attacked a civilian target first.



A cite about Georgia attacking civilian targets first would be nice. Most places I look show conflicting claims as to who fired first. The Georgians claim South Ossetian separatists shelled Georgian villages first, and the South Ossetians claim the opposite. Actual proof of either claim seems lacking.

BTW, the Confederate attack on Fort Sumter (a purely military target) was in response to Union re-enforcement of the fort, which was considered by the South to be a violation of their sovereignty (after all, they had seceded from the Union in compliance with their understanding of the Constitution). The Union was the first to shell civilian population centers, such as Richmond, Mobile, Vicksburg, and Atlanta. I can't recall any civilian populations that the Confederacy ever bombarded.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So the Confederacy fired the first shots. Glad you agree.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:48 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
So the Confederacy fired the first shots. Glad you agree.



Well, if someone's aiming a gun at your head and you shoot them first, firing the first shot might not be such a bad thing. If the jack-booted thugs came to cart you away to the camps and you shot first, would you be the aggressor?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:52 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The Confederacy had the fort under siege (a military action, BTW). They fired on unmanned supply ships. Lincoln tried to negotiate an agreement to reprovision the fort for food only. Fearing the fort would be reprovisioned and thus not fall to the siege, the Confederates attacked to fort.

Not so much seeing the self-defense angle you're trying so mightily to conjure out of nothing.


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Thursday, October 9, 2008 4:21 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
They fired on unmanned supply ships.



The Union had remote-control ships? Well I'm glad no one could get hurt firing on them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 4:44 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Typo - unarmed.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 5:21 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
So you would have supported the Confederacy in the War Between the States? After all, that was basically an invasion and subjugation of breakaway regions by their previous government.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



As was Kosovo...

Or China invading Taiwan

Or remembering Kuwait was once part of Iraq the first gulf war.



Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 6:07 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Typo - unarmed.




Unarmed...Yes , you pretty much always show up like that...

Then claim 'typo'...Lotta difference between 'unmanned' and 'unarmed'...

Not sure anyone's gonna buy your story...

The carbon-unit known as 'rue' is being piloted by 'Ensign Nolo'...

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 6:09 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
They fired on unmanned supply ships.



The Union had remote-control ships? Well I'm glad no one could get hurt firing on them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Those Clever Yankees ! Who knew ! ?

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 6:13 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I have software that automatically corrects typos - in this case, it inserted the wrong word and I didn't catch it. Bite me.

It doesn't change the FACT that the Confederacy engaged in an unprovoked act of aggression - not an act of self-defense as Geezer wants us to believe.

So, what's YOUR excuse for being an idiot ?

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 6:25 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Wait - don't go away !

Oh --- did your mommy send you to bed ? Bet she was maaad when she noticed what you'd been doing on the computer. Hope you had your supper.


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Thursday, October 9, 2008 11:28 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
In the case of Ossetia the Union (Georgia) attacked a civilian target first.


Actually South Ossetian Rebels attacked first.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, October 10, 2008 2:28 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
It doesn't change the FACT that the Confederacy engaged in an unprovoked act of aggression - not an act of self-defense as Geezer wants us to believe.



So if your neighbor started building a bunker in your front yard and refused repeated requests to leave, you wouldn't consider that provocation? What about when he brought in additional folks and ammo?

Remember that many constitutional scholars, North and South, thought at the time that it was prefectly legal for states to secede from the Union.

Also, no Union troops were killed or seriously wounded during the battle.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, October 10, 2008 3:16 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Actually South Ossetian Rebels attacked first.
Where? When? Cites please.

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Friday, October 10, 2008 6:42 AM

CITIZEN


Geezer did ask for a cite for Georgia attacking first too, sig. It's not been forth coming.

Nevertheless, South Ossetia broke away from Georgia in the early 90's, by shooting first. If you want something more contemporary the whole situation started with South Ossetian rebel terrorist attacks, that amped up into open warfare with both sides trading artillery fire.
Quote:

Tensions escalated in South Ossetia on July 3, 2008, when an Ossetian village police chief was killed by a bomb and the head of the pro-Georgian “government” in South Ossetia, Dmitriy Sanakoyev, escaped injury by a roadside mine. That night, both the Georgians and South Ossetians launched artillery attacks on each other’s villages and checkpoints, reportedly resulting in about a dozen killed or wounded. The European Union, the OSCE, and the Council of Europe issued urgent calls for both sides to show restraint and to resume peace talks.

...

On the evening of August 7, 2008, South Ossetia accused Georgia of launching a “massive” artillery barrage against Tskhinvali, while Georgia reported intense bombing of some Georgian villages in the conflict zone. Saakashvili that evening announced a unilateral ceasefire and called for South Ossetia to follow suit. He also called for reopening peace talks and reiterated that Georgia would provide the region with maximum autonomy within Georgia as part of a peace settlement. Georgia claims that South Ossetian forces did not end their shelling of Georgian villages but intensified their actions, “forcing” Georgia to declare an end to its ceasefire and begin sending ground forces into South Ossetia. Georgian troops reportedly soon controlled much of South Ossetia, including Tskhinvali.


http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34618.pdf




More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, October 10, 2008 6:50 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Geezer

"So if your neighbor started building a bunker in your front yard and refused repeated requests to leave, you wouldn't consider that provocation? What about when he brought in additional folks and ammo?"

Didn't happen.

I built the bunker in my front yard and was living in it. My neighbor claimed my yard was his and told me to leave, then blocked grocery delivery and cut the electric and phone lines and water and gas supply. No other person came to help and no ammo was delivered. Then he got tired of waiting and started shooting at me.

That's what happened.


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Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:53 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Geezer

Didn't happen.



I'd appreciate a cite for your thesis.

The Southern states seceded from the Union in what they considered a legal and constitutional act. See various secession documents for their logic.
http://www.sagehistory.net/civilwar/docs/SecessionDocs.htm
http://etymonline.com/cw/secession2.htm

Union forces refused to vacate property which South Carolina considered legally belonged to the state. They moved additional forces and supplies in. They were in the process of moving more forces and weapons in when they were forcefully evicted from property they illegally (from the South Carolina point of view) occupied, and which threatened commerce and civilian property.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:15 AM

RIVERLOVE


It's amusing how many here are blinded by ideology and cannot simply see this as nothing more than Soviet-style agression, ordered up by Putin. The interests being the oil pipeline first, and then a not-so-subtle display of good 'old style, roll the tanks in domination and intimidation against individual freedom and NATO desires. Hitler and the merry Nazis had a nice little cover story too when they used it to launch an invasion of Poland, then cheerfully followed by the genocide of millions of Poles. Something about German soldiers wearing Polish Army uniforms and then killing men at a German border post. Funny how somehow they can accuse Bush, but not Putin.

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Saturday, October 11, 2008 8:45 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


What's realy funny is that you all seem happier to argue about who started the ACW than discuss a problem thats happening in the here and now.
But then again, it's only Georgia so who cares,right?

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