REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Automakers

POSTED BY: FUTUREMRSFILLION
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 17:30
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Monday, November 17, 2008 9:53 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Interesting thought here - http://www.ev1.org/msg/39.htm


GM can save itself: resume production of EV1
"GM can save itself: resume production of EV1"

General Motors (GM) has been hurt by not having the right cars to sell ("U.S. car firms flat-out hurting", June 27).

GM story in Times

GM has been seriously looking for options for getting more fuel-efficient cars on the market quickly, because there is some question about its financial health after 2008. Rebranding foreign cars has become more expensive as the dollar falls, and new vehicles require years-long development cycles.

GM has proposed producing the VOLT, described as an Electric car with a range-extender, but it isn't planned for earlier than 2011. The VOLT depends on Lithium batteries which are not yet proven successful in an Electric car, as Lead and Nickel batteries were perfected over millions of test and customer miles in actual all-electric EVs.

There is one option GM has not considered, which would turn things around, both in image and in reality. It's simple, not dependent on a gamble, will work right now, and won't exclude the possibility of some day producing the Lithium VOLT or other EVs and serial hybrids.

GM could resume production of the 1999 EV1, using Panasonic EV-EC-1260 lead-acid batteries. These were leased in Arizona in 2000, and regularly attained a range of over 100 miles on a charge. The life-cycle cost is the lowest of all battery options.

GM claims they were "unable to sell" the EV1; typical of GM's current disconnect with reality, GM never offered even one for sale, explaining why the EV1 didn't sell.

If you refuse to sell a car, don't be surprised if it doesn't sell. Is this an example endemic to GM's current failure, as noted in financial articles, with a Market Value less than Starbucks?

Resumption of production would be simple; the EV1 plant is empty, the former assembly workers have been laid off and are idly drawing "jobs bank" salaries, the batteries are available off-the-shelf in any quantities over 1000, and the design is proven successful.

Production of the EV1 does not depend on an expensive product design cycle, new engineering, questionable battery testing and recalls; it's a proven winner.

This is the GM car that fans watched over in a rain-plagued vigil for 28 days. Here's an example where would-be purchasers clamored for a chance to buy GM products, hoping for the faint chance that GM would sell six-year-old used versions for $25,000 cash.

According to one GM exec, each EV1 cost "well over $80K to produce". If so, that would make GM's relentless confiscation and destruction of each and every EV1 even more difficult to understand. However, the 1150 EV1 were hand-built in batches, instead of using GM's traditional manufacturing excellence; in mass production, the cost would come down, by one estimate, to less than $11,000, leaving GM a signficant profit margin -- and allowing GM to scoop the competition.

GM is now bemoaning the lack of enthusiasm for its current products; why not re-activate the EV1 fan club, recharge the excitement of the "21st century test pilot" GM fans, and turn GM around? Spend scarce engineering dollars on new versions of the EV1: four-passenger, pickups, serial hybrid with range-extender; but the current version could be in showrooms in six months. Even if it didn't sell, it would draw in floor traffic.

While Lithium may pan-out, as GM's Bob Lutz claims, there's a lot to life-cycle costing of batteries that so far has precluded Lithium's practical use in Electric cars. To date, no Lithium-powered EV has gone more than 50,000 miles without significant battery degradation. Lithium is unproven, as one recent story has pointed out, while the batteries used in the EV1, both Lead-acid and Nickel, were tested and proven successful.

Nickel batteries are running well over 100,000 miles in the Toyota RAV4-EV.

All successful Electric cars, such as the Toyota RAV4-EV and the GM EV1, started with Lead batteries and were later upgraded to Nickel. Why not repeat past success, and start now with lead or nickel, later upgrading to Lithium when it is proven? GM, according to CEO Wagoner, has enough liquidity to last through 2008, but he refused to comment on 2009. GM may not last long enough to fund the perfect electric car it now spends a fortune advertizing it will some day produce.

If GM had re-started the EV1 line at the same time it starting design work on the VOLT, the EV1 would already be generating revenue right now.

Fresh off the assembly line, these cars would sell for no less than $35,000, perhaps as much as $50,000 or more. But the morale value would be even greater.

Revival of the EV1 would quiet GM's critics, make GM some money, and attract new customers as well as increase floor traffic for other models. New and improved versions of the basic Electric car, year after year, would expand GM's footprint on the world market, leveraging scarce investment dollars, maximizing profit and leading the way forward.

And we could say once again that our cars were "made in America and fueled by American Electrons".

Is it a measure of GM's past failure that resumption of EV1 production is not even under consideration?

/Doug


Seal Beach, CA 90740-5842





I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Monday, November 17, 2008 11:01 AM

WHODIED


Yeah! Those damn Unions!


Oh, wait...

--WhoDied


_______________________

Poncy bugger owes me eleven pounds



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Monday, November 17, 2008 11:24 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by WhoDied:
Yeah! Those damn Unions!





Unions caused some problems, but the real BIG problem is that apes that just look at (but don't READ) the reports & go "yes" or "no" make millions a year whether their company is successful or not.

Ape must kill apeisall

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Monday, November 17, 2008 11:53 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Unions caused some problems, but the real BIG problem is that apes that just look at (but don't READ) the reports & go "yes" or "no" make millions a year whether their company is successful or not.


I think you'll find that the thinking of the average working Union fella is about the same as the CEO on making their money whether the company is successful or not.

I think your characterization of the CEO's is a bit off. I have no doubt some are as you describe. I suspect that others are good at their jobs and deeply involved in the running of their company and are trying to find a way to make it work.

A select few are good at their jobs and deeply involved in running the company, see that with the Unions in the way profits will NEVER come and so they are trying to get all that they can before the bottom drops out. It is these folks who will take their wealth, hire the folks from the above paragraph, and start new companies to replace the big three when they are gone.

H

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Monday, November 17, 2008 1:26 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Interesting thought here - http://www.ev1.org/msg/39.htm


GM can save itself: resume production of EV1
"GM can save itself: resume production of EV1"

General Motors (GM) has been hurt by not having the right cars to sell ("U.S. car firms flat-out hurting", June 27).

GM story in Times

GM has been seriously looking for options for getting more fuel-efficient cars on the market quickly, because there is some question about its financial health after 2008. Rebranding foreign cars has become more expensive as the dollar falls, and new vehicles require years-long development cycles.

GM has proposed producing the VOLT, described as an Electric car with a range-extender, but it isn't planned for earlier than 2011. The VOLT depends on Lithium batteries which are not yet proven successful in an Electric car, as Lead and Nickel batteries were perfected over millions of test and customer miles in actual all-electric EVs.

There is one option GM has not considered, which would turn things around, both in image and in reality. It's simple, not dependent on a gamble, will work right now, and won't exclude the possibility of some day producing the Lithium VOLT or other EVs and serial hybrids.

GM could resume production of the 1999 EV1, using Panasonic EV-EC-1260 lead-acid batteries. These were leased in Arizona in 2000, and regularly attained a range of over 100 miles on a charge. The life-cycle cost is the lowest of all battery options.

GM claims they were "unable to sell" the EV1; typical of GM's current disconnect with reality, GM never offered even one for sale, explaining why the EV1 didn't sell.

If you refuse to sell a car, don't be surprised if it doesn't sell. Is this an example endemic to GM's current failure, as noted in financial articles, with a Market Value less than Starbucks?

Resumption of production would be simple; the EV1 plant is empty, the former assembly workers have been laid off and are idly drawing "jobs bank" salaries, the batteries are available off-the-shelf in any quantities over 1000, and the design is proven successful.

Production of the EV1 does not depend on an expensive product design cycle, new engineering, questionable battery testing and recalls; it's a proven winner.

This is the GM car that fans watched over in a rain-plagued vigil for 28 days. Here's an example where would-be purchasers clamored for a chance to buy GM products, hoping for the faint chance that GM would sell six-year-old used versions for $25,000 cash.

According to one GM exec, each EV1 cost "well over $80K to produce". If so, that would make GM's relentless confiscation and destruction of each and every EV1 even more difficult to understand. However, the 1150 EV1 were hand-built in batches, instead of using GM's traditional manufacturing excellence; in mass production, the cost would come down, by one estimate, to less than $11,000, leaving GM a signficant profit margin -- and allowing GM to scoop the competition.

GM is now bemoaning the lack of enthusiasm for its current products; why not re-activate the EV1 fan club, recharge the excitement of the "21st century test pilot" GM fans, and turn GM around? Spend scarce engineering dollars on new versions of the EV1: four-passenger, pickups, serial hybrid with range-extender; but the current version could be in showrooms in six months. Even if it didn't sell, it would draw in floor traffic.

While Lithium may pan-out, as GM's Bob Lutz claims, there's a lot to life-cycle costing of batteries that so far has precluded Lithium's practical use in Electric cars. To date, no Lithium-powered EV has gone more than 50,000 miles without significant battery degradation. Lithium is unproven, as one recent story has pointed out, while the batteries used in the EV1, both Lead-acid and Nickel, were tested and proven successful.

Nickel batteries are running well over 100,000 miles in the Toyota RAV4-EV.

All successful Electric cars, such as the Toyota RAV4-EV and the GM EV1, started with Lead batteries and were later upgraded to Nickel. Why not repeat past success, and start now with lead or nickel, later upgrading to Lithium when it is proven? GM, according to CEO Wagoner, has enough liquidity to last through 2008, but he refused to comment on 2009. GM may not last long enough to fund the perfect electric car it now spends a fortune advertizing it will some day produce.

If GM had re-started the EV1 line at the same time it starting design work on the VOLT, the EV1 would already be generating revenue right now.

Fresh off the assembly line, these cars would sell for no less than $35,000, perhaps as much as $50,000 or more. But the morale value would be even greater.

Revival of the EV1 would quiet GM's critics, make GM some money, and attract new customers as well as increase floor traffic for other models. New and improved versions of the basic Electric car, year after year, would expand GM's footprint on the world market, leveraging scarce investment dollars, maximizing profit and leading the way forward.

And we could say once again that our cars were "made in America and fueled by American Electrons".

Is it a measure of GM's past failure that resumption of EV1 production is not even under consideration?

/Doug


Seal Beach, CA 90740-5842





I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

Great idea! They sould build high priced cars nobody wants! BRILLIANT! $35.000 to $50.000 for an electric middle class family car, when you can buy a nice gas sucker for $25.000 or less? A nice 4 door Dodge Charger with a V6, under $25.000, 4 door Ford Crown Victoria with a V8, about the same. You do'nt have to plug them in everynight and run up your electric bill. By the way, how much will my electric bill be to run these things, got a number?

I'm going to microwave a Bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Monday, November 17, 2008 1:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I notice Honda and Toyota won't be getting in line for any of those proposed bailout bucks? Why? Because they already offer small, fuel-efficient cars, since they know full well that $2.00 gas isn't likely to be around for all that long.

Honda may even turn a profit this year. If they do, it's in no small part due to their introduction of the Fit to the U.S. market - something their U.S. marketeers told them was unwise. They did it anyway, HOPING to sell as many as 50,000 per year, and saw their actual sales nearly double that number.

Meanwhile, GM offers really, really large rebates on really, really large SUVs, and still can't get anyone interested...

While I realize we may HAVE TO bail out the Big Three, I'm nothing less than pissed about it. I say we put strict conditions on any bailout money - no bonuses for execs, strict pay ceilings that link executive compensation to the pay of the line workers, ditto the health care packages, etc. And we do like the government did with Chrysler back in the day - we offer them the money, but only on condition that they dump their gas-guzzlers. For Chrysler, part of the agreement was they trashed their "big block" V8s, doing away with the tooling and molds for any gas engine larger than 360 cubic inches displacement (this did away with the old 440 and the 426 "Hemi", among others, but left them the 318 and 340 V8s, which were much more fuel efficient).

Like I say, we can demand the terms, and they can take the money or not.

What I'd really like to know, though, is where the hell did all those record profits from just a few years ago go? What did they piss the money away on?

Don't get me wrong; I'm a gearhead. I like fast cars, and I like driving. But a fun, fast car doesn't HAVE to be a gas-guzzling behemoth. In fact, they're more fun when they're not.

And it's not like the automakers don't have small, fuel-efficient fun cars in their lineups already. They just don't tend to offer them for sale in the U.S.

Mike

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Monday, November 17, 2008 6:37 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


I happen to agree with you Kwicko. GM should also promote the heck out of their Vibe (just bought a "slightly used" 2008 in August). Test drove a 2008 Camry, loved it but didn't like the over $20,000 sticker price, the Honda Civic was overpriced also and the other cars I test drove really didn't get me either with value or the "it" factor.

The Vibe is a sweet little crossover built on a Toyota Carolla/Matrix drive train and engine. I liked the Vibe styling better than the Matrix (it's a bit taller and wider), plus I paid about $2000 less just because it had Pontiac stuck on it instead of Toyota.

Good gas mileage, reliable Toyota engine, lots of room... I've always driven sedans so it's nice to have cargo room for once. If it was a hybrid I'd be in car heaven.

This is the second GM/Toyota I've driven. I had a Chevy Prizm in the late 1980's and drove it over 150,000 miles before I sold it and I still see them on the road sometimes.



http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Monday, November 17, 2008 7:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


NCB: One of my coworkers has a Vibe, and he loves it. The Prizm was also a rebadged Corolla, if memory serves - and being that the Corolla is one of the top-selling cars in history, they must be doing something right...

I love my Hondas, but I tend to like the ones from the late 80s and early 90s best. I like the new Civic Si, but if I were buying a new car, I'd be looking at the Fit - and waiting for the CR-Z, the spiritual successor to my beloved CRX.

The Big Three could take a few lessons from the Japanese, but more importantly, they could learn from the Koreans as well. Hyundai used to be ridiculed (people said the name HYUNDAI was an acronym for "Hope You Understand Nothing's Drivable AND Inexpensive!"), but they've made enormous strides, and are now giving some of the best cars out there a serious run for their money.

The unions are part of the problem with the U.S. automakers, but they're not the whole problem. A lot of it stems from the myopia of the marketers, who (like economists) tend to think that whatever's trendy today will ALWAYS be trendy. It's like a major-league baseball player getting a hit in his first at-bat and saying he's batting 1000 for the season. It seems great at the time, but odds are it's going to change. U.S. automakers put all their eggs in the oversized basket of large SUVs and bet on cheap gas being forever. Seems that things have changed, again. You'd think they'd have learned the lessons of the 70s, when the Japanese stormed the gates with hordes of small, efficient cars in the wake of dollar gas and 5000-pound Detroit sedans...




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Monday, November 17, 2008 7:45 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


I test drove a Hyundai and it was my second choice. They are very good cars. In fact, the dealership had problems keeping cars in stock and Hyundai has an excellent rating with Consumer Reports.

The big 3 need to have a forward looking R&D department and anticipate trends. Not only hybrids but also hydrogen or other technology too. Gas under $2.00 won't last forever.



http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:36 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I don't want a damned SUV, I want a puny little car with an itty bitty engine that doesn't eat much gas, can range 120+miles on a fill up and hit a max sustained speed of 60mph.
(And a MPG of 48 or better if gas powered)

Other than a seat, I could give a shit about creature comforts neither - and damned if I intend to pay $35,000.00 for $12,000.00 worth of car and then get doublefucked by a finance company to boot, IF they will even actually SELL it to you since most of these fuckers are now lease only...

If I wanted to rent a damn car I would go to a rental agency!

I want, what I want, and I am not the only one, and if the sticker price clears $5,000.00 then I am going elsewhere, it's just that simple.

Nobody makes that car.

We COULD make that car, even now, a small high efficiency four cylinder with a torque converter could do it easily if it only had to move a car that minimalist.

We could, but we don't - because the dinosaurs are once again stuck in the muck, and once again howling to be thrown a rope.

Well, too bad, sure it'll suck in the short run, but if the rampant greed, corruption, destruction and anticompetative monopoly and sabotage against anything resembling domestic competition finally gone....

We might actually see some companies rise that can actually service the customers needs instead of the henry ford "only one color, take it or leave it" policy - they've gotten used to these bailouts and dependant on them, just like southland and their bankruptcy trick to avoid paying suppliers, the big three avoid costly innovation, efficiency and good sense by just doing what they do and howling for more taxpayer cash instead of taking measures that would trim their fat wallets and save their business.

Well, it's lesson time, folks - I say we bid them a fond farewell and let them sink like they deserve, cause if we DO bail em out, they will just do the exact same shit, all over again, for as long as possible, till they start sinking again, and scream for more, just like they always do, always have done.

Cut the chain folks, or they'll take us with em.

"Everybody Wins" is an impossible business model, it does not work on wall street, and it doesn't work here!

All we wind up with is "Everybody BUT taxpayers wins, Taxpayers lose." and I am sick of it, how bout you ?

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:03 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Waking thouhts... somewhat random...

I sincerely hope the Big Three (or any one of them) don't fail, for all of our sakes. GM goes down, they take down all of their subsidiary companies, all of the suppliers and vendors. It could take down the steel industry, along with other commodities. Transportation companies fail, throwing more people out of work. All told, something like 3.2 million American jobs gone, just like that, in a short order domino effect.

That's the worst case. That's what I worry about. I *hope* they'll pull it out and learn a lesson, but I fear what it could do to the entire economy if they don't. Trust me, I loathe GM in general, but I don't want to see them pull the rest of us down if they fail.

It's funny - here we are giving 700 billion to Wall Street, and maybe in excess of a trillion before anything's accomplished there... yet we're actually balking at $25 billion for the automakers. Of the two "indutries" (Wall Street versus Detroit), who employs more people? Which is responsible for more of an impact on the real economy?

I hate to say it, but 25 billion might be cheap at twice the cost...

And it's more than just a little bit ironic, isn't it? Here we have a "socialist" elected to the White House, and we're going all-out to make sure we have a socialist nation ready to hand over to him. We've nationalized banks already, and Wall Street firms, and before we know it, we'll be nationalizing the auto industry, in one form or another. We WILL be bailing them out, no doubt about it. Either we'll hand them money, or they'll fail and the "givernment" will step in and take over the means of production.

Maybe when it's time to try socialism, a nation elects a socialist. Or a president becomes one.

Mike

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:33 AM

RIVERLOVE


Detroit is a dinosaur, killed off by the absurd Union contracts that ruined their ability to compete.

There are many other car plants in America.....Honda, Hyundai, etc all have big plants in America; the difference is that in these plants the Union contract is not as punishing and restrictive as it is in Detroit.

If the big 3 want Federal bailout money, it must come with Union concessions, along with Executive wage and bonus oversight. If not, then too bad. Move to Alabama, they have auto industry jobs there.

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:50 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
If not, then too bad. Move to Alabama, they have auto industry jobs there.


Not to mention Space Camp and some fine BBQ.

H

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:55 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

And it's more than just a little bit ironic, isn't it? Here we have a "socialist" elected to the White House, and we're going all-out to make sure we have a socialist nation ready to hand over to him. We've nationalized banks already, and Wall Street firms, and before we know it, we'll be nationalizing the auto industry, in one form or another. We WILL be bailing them out, no doubt about it. Either we'll hand them money, or they'll fail and the "givernment" will step in and take over the means of production.

Maybe when it's time to try socialism, a nation elects a socialist. Or a president becomes one.


I like your analysis, Mike, but what I like even better is that this irks the likes of AU!!!

The oh so Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 6:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Detroit is a dinosaur, killed off by the absurd Union contracts that ruined their ability to compete
I know where you got this "fact". It wuld help if you would read something other than Fux News.

Detroit was killed off by the dinosaurs they kept producing. GM's CEO, Robert Lutz, said that global warming was a "total crock of shit", and his commitment to big, high-proft gas guzzlers left GM unprepared for high gas prices. Every American car we bought suffered repreated, major problems, so quality control is an issue too. (Toyota is year-after-year the most reliable car made.)

Germany, a major car exporter, limits the ratio of CEO/ worker pay to 7:1 instead of the 300-400:1 we have here. In Japan the ratio at Toyota is about 20:1. That's a lot of extra money that goes into research and retooling.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/98491-credit-crisis-sharpens-anger-ove
r-ceo-pay


---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 7:16 AM

SERGEANTX


Corporate welfare RULEZZZ!!!

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 7:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The unions are part of the problem with the U.S. automakers, but they're not the whole problem."

Actually, what's killing the Big 3 (besides CEO's having stock options, excessive CEO pay not tied to long-term company performance, and dinosaur design) is health care costs. Now, if the US had nationalized heath care like Japan, or even Canada, the auto companies wouldn't have so much money sucked out of them and into insurance company paperwork.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 8:06 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:


Germany, a major car exporter, limits the ratio of CEO/ worker pay to 7:1 instead of the 300-400:1 we have here. In Japan the ratio at Toyota is about 20:1. That's a lot of extra money that goes into research and retooling.



Oh, Sig, Sig, Sig... you poor dear. You just don't get it at all, do you? You don't understand the first thing about capitalism; I can just tell.

If we didn't give CEOs of major corporations hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses, stock options, and signing bonuses, we'd NEVER be able to compete with the Japanese, the Germans, the Koreans, or any of "them other furriners".

And the only way you can get that much money together to give to the hard-working execs, who labor tirelessly for the well-being of their workers, is to take it from those greedy unionist hourly people, who do nothing for the company, offer nothing in return for their pay, and are incapable of earning a single dime on their own. If they have a paycheck at all, it's only because some well-meaning CEO decided to grace them with a low-paying job.

It's our willingness to pay out exhorbitant salaries that makes us competitive... 'cause it sure as hell ain't the crap we sell as "cars".

(sarcasm over)

EC

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 8:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

I like your analysis, Mike, but what I like even better is that this irks the likes of AU!!!

The oh so Chrisisall





I didn't post it to irk Au - that's just a bonus!

I just find it more and more ironic; the more they bitch about Obama being a "socialist", the more socialist they make the country, even before he steps into the office.

So is America turning more Socialist because we elected Obama, or did we elect Obama because we're becoming more socialist? Either way, you can thank the free market crowd for bringing us to this point. Free markets, zero regulation, snake oil and medicine shows, anything goes (but no one knows exactly where...), and we find ourselves right smack dab where we were... oh, around 80 years ago. Welcome to 1928. Playing the part of Herbert Hoover tonight will be George W. Bush. There will be a short intermission so that the fatcats can go throw themselves out the windows, and then the show must go on!

Mike

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 1:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

There will be a short intermission so that the fatcats can go throw themselves out the windows
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

All I wanna know is... can we take their golden parachutes before they go???

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:24 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Sorry, but the Ford F-150 wasn't the best selling vehicle for several years running because Ford held a gun to folks heads and made them buy them. People wanted pickups and SUVs, and the market provided them. Honda, Toyota and Nissan started making big trucks and SUVs because they had to compete in that segment of the American market. Porsche and VW made SUVs they can't even sell in Europe to claim their share of the U.S. market.

Until gas gets really expensive, the majority of folks aren't gonna want a small, uncomfortable econo-box. I've driven D.C./Montana and back in a Mazda 323 and a Chevy Tahoe. Believe me, the Tahoe's much more comfortable. (Of course, the Acura TL-S is even better if you're not carrying hunting gear and big ice chests, and gets 30+ MPG.)

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Sorry, but the Ford F-150 wasn't the best selling vehicle for several years running because Ford held a gun to folks heads and made them buy them. People wanted pickups and SUVs, and the market provided them
But they should have kept a bigger hand in the small to mid-size car market, instead of handing that segment to the Japanese et al.

SUVs and trucks don't require a lot of engineering or development work, so the SUV/ truck market was extremely high profit, and the Big 3 - GM in particular- decided they would rather keep that part of the market, jack up their bonuses, and let the rest go. It was a very short-sighted business decision on their part.

GM's sales goal: KEEP ON TRUCKING
Quote:

More SUVs than cars to boost profits
Jefferey McCracken / Detroit Free Press 21jun00
BRESCIA, Italy -- Fewer cars, more trucks. That's General Motors Corp.'s production plan over the next several years in North America as the world's largest automaker attempts to regain eroding market share and hit its 5-percent net profit margin goals. GM acknowledged its North American operations will fall short of that 5-percent goal in 2000. The automaker hopes to reach it next year after cutting back on production of small cars, such as the Chevrolet Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire, while launching sport-utility vehicles and truck hybrids such as the Chevy Avalanche and the Pontiac Aztek.


www.mindfully.org/Industry/GM-Goal-More-SUVs.htm

Seismic Shift to Smaller Segments Rocks U.S. Market, Edmunds' Analysis Shows
May 28, 2008
Quote:

By Dale Buss

American car buyers have been flocking to small cars, crossovers and hybrids so massively -- and so quickly -- that they're threatening to tip the auto industry on its axis. They're leaving behind trucks, large SUVs and, to a lesser extent, luxury vehicles of all kinds in favor of more fuel-efficient and less-expensive segments. An Edmunds.com analysis shows that this shift has precipitated dramatically over the last two months, both in terms of actual transactions as well as in shopping trends measured on the Edmunds.com site. Until March, this pattern of segment migration had been accelerating markedly but rather gradually.

www.autoobserver.com/2008/05/seismic-shift-to-smaller-segments-rocks-u
s-market-edmunds-analysis-shows.html


I do have to wonder... if the CEO's are supposed to be the strategic planners for the company, why the frak are they getting such big bucks???? All I can say is... what a bunch of whiners!!



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