REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Superhero Physics

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Monday, December 1, 2008 05:36
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VIEWED: 2781
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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:02 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"it doesn't matter HOW strong you are if you don't have the weight, reach and bulk to apply leverage to somethin."

Hello,

I read this in another thread and it made me think of Superheroes. I love Superheroes, but they are also a pet peeve of mine. In the superhero world, physics apply to everyone except for the superheroes (and villains.)

One thing I really hate is when someone like Superman picks up a truck or bus by the front end and swings it about.

First of all, it doesn't matter how strong this guy is. If he tries to pick up an object like a vehicle from one end, he will be off balance and merely tip forward.

Second of all, vehicles are generally not designed to support their own weight from just anywhere. If you grab the front grill of a vehicle and pick it up, you will probably carry away the front grill and leave the rest of the vehicle behind.

The 'super breath' of Superman also gets my goat. I don't care how strong he is, his lungs have a rather limited capacity. He can not create hurricane force winds by exhaling. I daresay even if you somehow pumped liquid oxygen into his lungs, you wouldn't get enough explosive decompression to send vehicles tumbling down the block.

The 'super leap' of the Hulk bothers me. He makes individual leaps that take him miles away. The hulk is big, m'kay? But lets pretend he only weighs 200 pounds. How much energy does it take to launch a 200 pound object, say, five miles? Rue, can you help me out here? I'm not a scientist, but I know the answer is probably "A hell of a lot." Because the Hulk is leaping, all of the energy required for his trip must be expended at the time of launch. This means to me, essentially, that he should completely obliterate anything at his takeoff point. What material could withstand such energy? It's not as though he's jumping off from reinforced-concrete launch pads or massive steel floor plates. It seems like he'd expend a lot of his energy into destroying whatever he was standing on, and not get much 'air time' as a consequence. Never mind that when he lands, he'd hit like a bomb. I don't mean cracking the pavement or ruining the hood of someone's car. I mean like the bombardment of the shore by sixteen-inch Battleship cannon. Frankly, my sympathy has always been with the Military that feels the need to kill the Hulk because he's too dangerous. He is!

The recent movie Hancock tried to display some of the 'physics problems' with superhero powers, including takeoffs and landings. However, they had their hero get hit by a locamotive in one scene that bothered me. He was an immovable object, while the train stopped dead on its tracks, derailing the entire chain. I would have rather expected poor Hancock to get launched down range by the impact, leaving only a dent in the locomotive's front grill. The only other explanation is that he intentionally produced 'flight thrust' to counter the energy of the train... Which perhaps is keeping with the movie's premise that he was a big jerk.


My wife always makes fun of me, "You accept Superheroes, men in tights, flying around... but then quibble about physics?" But yes, I'm that flavor of nerd. I figure, you want me to buy the existence of X superpowers? Fine. It's the premise of your tale, so I'll suspend my disbelief THAT far. But if your world is otherwise rooted in real physics, then your superheroes should have to play ball, too. In fact, I wager most superhero entertainment would be a lot more entertaining if the superheroes had to cope with the limitations of the universe.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:11 AM

WHOZIT


Sometimes Superman seems a little TOO strong, there sould be things he CAN'T pick up. Spidermans powers are limited.

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:14 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
the rest of the vehicle behind.



The 'super leap' of the Hulk bothers me. He makes individual leaps that take him miles away. The hulk is big, m'kay? But lets pretend he only weighs 200 pounds. How much energy does it take to launch a 200 pound object, say, five miles?

I agree with ya Anthony- but they fixed that in the latest movie- the physics were much more correct than the previous flick, or the comics. I really appreciated that.


The smashing Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:19 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

The 'super breath' of Superman also gets my goat. I don't care how strong he is, his lungs have a rather limited capacity.


Yer not takin' compression into account...


The endless geek Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:26 AM

FREMDFIRMA



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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

If I can't have them, no one can!

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:29 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Yes, I been waitin for an excuse to use that one, heheheheh.

I don't hate em like most Convention goers, as explained before I tend to wind up herding the little monsters by the end of the day when everyone else is too ploshed to watch em, and the image of the grim reaper doing the pied piper thing with a train of bratty little catgirls is always amusing to some.

Anyhows.. one of my favorite nitpicks, nicely subverted by Hancock, was how the hell do you pay for all that mess.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroInsurance

-F

EDIT: Although they've so totally corrupted me, by pawning off a copy of Magical Meow Meow Taruto and demanding I watch it....
It's so horribly cute you'll puke rainbows and cotton candy clouds, but for some inexplicable reason based somewhere in the land of trainwreck fascination I do kinda like it - and get a good laugh out of what folks can sneak by the censors sometimes, Chitose's tail fetish is so obviously perverse you can't help but laugh.
I warn ya tho, you'll never get the theme song out of your head, like.. EVER.

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:32 AM

CHRISISALL



Collateral damage.


The not-responsible Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:35 AM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Yes, I been waitin for an excuse to use that one, heheheheh.

I don't hate em like most Convention goers, as explained before I tend to wind up herding the little monsters by the end of the day when everyone else is too ploshed to watch em, and the image of the grim reaper doing the pied piper thing with a train of bratty little catgirls is always amusing to some.

Anyhows.. one of my favorite nitpicks, nicely subverted by Hancock, was how the hell do you pay for all that mess.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroInsurance

-F

Super Heros never have to pay for the mess they make, it's one of the perks.

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:39 AM

WHOZIT


Santa has special powers, is he a Super Hero, or to fat?

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:39 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
Super Heros never have to pay for the mess they make, it's one of the perks.


There's an established Superhero Bailout Package on the books for catestrophic monetary compensation due to emergency citizen protection, I believe.


The technical Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:44 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The 'super leap' of the Hulk bothers me. He makes individual leaps that take him miles away. The hulk is big, m'kay? But lets pretend he only weighs 200 pounds. How much energy does it take to launch a 200 pound object, say, five miles? Rue, can you help me out here?

I don’t know what Rue’s opinion would be but it’s a fairly straight forward physics question, if you assume ballistic conditions and ignore certain complications like air resistance.

Then we can get the velocity from the range formula:

V^2 = Rg/sin(2a),

Where R is the range, g is the acceleration of gravity, and a is the launch angle. We can assume maximum launch angle, 45 degrees. Using this, we can derive the kinetic energy needed:

K = ½ m v^2 = ½ mRg/sin(2a)

Do the math, we come out with 3582.042 kJ or about 5 times the energy in a typical hand grenade. So the answer to your question is yes, there would be a considerable crater left on the ground.

Typically, I find that superhero physics tends to ignore the Law of Reaction:

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Meaning that even if superman could hold that kind of pressure in his lungs and even if buses could be supported by their front end, upon what is superman bracing himself?




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 8:39 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Finn, you are my new official Superhero Mathematician. :-)

I'll tell you what, I have wayyy too much fun pondering these issues. Reading Stardestroyer.net's essays on technology and treknology provided hours of enjoyment, all for sci-fi whose most basic premises defy physics.

Once again leading my wife to proclaim, "There's ships zipping around the galaxy and you're bothered by the sighting mechanism on a hand-phaser?!"

To which I reply - "That's just it! There isn't one!"

Some people are just built different upstairs, I think. It takes a special kind of geek to enjoy these kinds of ruminations.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 8:43 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Cat girls are expendable.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 9:52 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Anthony,

What strikes me is that most of your troubles with Superphysics could be explained away by the heroes having a very strange relationship to gravity. Gravity is a pretty mysterious...what, thing? Concept? Force? If Superman could change his specific gravity, then he'd do a whole bunch of things that look a lot like feats of strength, that really aren't. It would also account for his being able to pick up a whole car by the grill.

Gravity is the central mystery in pretty much all sci-fi that deals with space travel. Even Serenity generates a grav field somehow. I find it very interesting how much we don't know about the nature of gravity and how much it influences the imagination.

Martial arts masters are supposed to be able to manipulate their weight and gain strength directly from the earth. Sounds like the same concept.

Anyway, highly interesting topic, sir.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:50 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
If Superman could change his specific gravity, then he'd do a whole bunch of things that look a lot like feats of strength, that really aren't. It would also account for his being able to pick up a whole car by the grill.

How is that?



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:58 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Well, if he could change the weight of the object he was picking up, I guess it would be less of a strain on the object to support its own weight. Hence, it would be less likely to break apart.

But though Superman has had every super-power up-to and including super-arithmetic and super-weaving (see superdickery.com for a good laugh,) none of his writers have ever acknowledged, much less tried to explain, this problem.

Still, Gravity Manipulation would go a long way to explaining apparently reactionless flight. (Which my father tells me started as Superman 'jumping' and evolved into what it is today via the 'power of the week' syndrome.)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:26 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Well, if he could change the weight of the object he was picking up, I guess it would be less of a strain on the object to support its own weight. Hence, it would be less likely to break apart.

Change the mass of the bus? HK said changing superman’s mass, not the bus, but perhaps that’s what he meant. If the bus had less mass, but retained its stress integrity, then perhaps. But there would be responses to that. For instance a bus with a low enough mass that it could be picked up by its grill, would respond to atmosphere conditions. Like throwing a piece of styrofoam, it wouldn’t travel far and could exhibit wild variations in attitude. Furthermore, it wouldn’t have the mass to damage anything it came in contact with upon landing. Also there would be strange effects, because fundamental changes in mass creates a force, the same way fundamental changes in velocity create force.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:07 PM

WHOZIT


"THE ZIT" can not pick up a bus.

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:09 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Well, if he could change the weight of the object he was picking up, I guess it would be less of a strain on the object to support its own weight. Hence, it would be less likely to break apart.

Change the mass of the bus? HK said changing superman’s mass, not the bus, but perhaps that’s what he meant. If the bus had less mass, but retained its stress integrity, then perhaps. But there would be responses to that. For instance a bus with a low enough mass that it could be picked up by its grill, would respond to atmosphere conditions. Like throwing a piece of styrofoam, it wouldn’t travel far and could exhibit wild variations in attitude. Furthermore, it wouldn’t have the mass to damage anything it came in contact with upon landing. Also there would be strange effects, because fundamental changes in mass creates a force, the same way fundamental changes in velocity create force.


Well, the leverage issue would be solved if he weighed a good deal more than the bus I was thinking. The guy is able to make his body stong and hard as steal or supple as flesh, it would seem, so something weird is going on there. Beyond that, I'm thinking about Superman increasing his own gravitational field, artificially if you will, manipulating it in a conscious way to affect the bus, so the bus would be gravitationally attracted to him. The field of this gravity would be under the control of Superman's conscious will, naturally, so he could focus it on the bus in his hands alone and not the overall gravity of the planet around him. This kind of power would be handy and could account for any number of godlike abilities.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 1:21 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Well, the leverage issue would be solved if he weighed a good deal more than the bus I was thinking. The guy is able to make his body stong and hard as steal or supple as flesh, it would seem, so something weird is going on there. Beyond that, I'm thinking about Superman increasing his own gravitational field, artificially if you will, manipulating it in a conscious way to affect the bus, so the bus would be gravitationally attracted to him. The field of this gravity would be under the control of Superman's conscious will, naturally, so he could focus it on the bus in his hands alone and not the overall gravity of the planet around him. This kind of power would be handy and could account for any number of godlike abilities.

It also would require gravity to be specific to a mass, which would require the mass that makes up the bus to be unique from any other mass, which as it turns out it is not the case, at least not what is observed.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 1:29 PM

OPTIMUS1998


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Well, if he could change the weight of the object he was picking up, I guess it would be less of a strain on the object to support its own weight. Hence, it would be less likely to break apart.

Change the mass of the bus? HK said changing superman’s mass, not the bus, but perhaps that’s what he meant. If the bus had less mass, but retained its stress integrity, then perhaps. But there would be responses to that. For instance a bus with a low enough mass that it could be picked up by its grill, would respond to atmosphere conditions. Like throwing a piece of styrofoam, it wouldn’t travel far and could exhibit wild variations in attitude. Furthermore, it wouldn’t have the mass to damage anything it came in contact with upon landing. Also there would be strange effects, because fundamental changes in mass creates a force, the same way fundamental changes in velocity create force.


...umm aren't weight and Mass different things??

weight has to do with the effect of gravity on the object, and mass has to do with how much of a substance there is.. granted mass X of sustance Y weighs Z on earth, but an equal mass of subtance Y would only weigh 1/6 Z on the moon.
at least that's what I learned in High School...

therefore if he could alter the effect of the gravitational feild on a object, the bus in question could be relatively light weight and this ability to effect local gravitational feilds would explain the method of locomotion in levitation not sure about directiional flight, I never took a physics class.
( but i do think he would tend to just rip off the bumper of the bus rather than pick the whole darn thing up...)

Make Cartoons, Not War
- Sue Blu
Well played, Clerks...
- Leonardo Leonardo(Clerks Cartoon)

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 2:00 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by optimus1998:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Well, if he could change the weight of the object he was picking up, I guess it would be less of a strain on the object to support its own weight. Hence, it would be less likely to break apart.

Change the mass of the bus? HK said changing superman’s mass, not the bus, but perhaps that’s what he meant. If the bus had less mass, but retained its stress integrity, then perhaps. But there would be responses to that. For instance a bus with a low enough mass that it could be picked up by its grill, would respond to atmosphere conditions. Like throwing a piece of styrofoam, it wouldn’t travel far and could exhibit wild variations in attitude. Furthermore, it wouldn’t have the mass to damage anything it came in contact with upon landing. Also there would be strange effects, because fundamental changes in mass creates a force, the same way fundamental changes in velocity create force.


...umm aren't weight and Mass different things??

weight has to do with the effect of gravity on the object, and mass has to do with how much of a substance there is.. granted mass X of sustance Y weighs Z on earth, but an equal mass of subtance Y would only weigh 1/6 Z on the moon.
at least that's what I learned in High School...

therefore if he could alter the effect of the gravitational feild on a object, the bus in question could be relatively light weight and this ability to effect local gravitational feilds would explain the method of locomotion in levitation not sure about directiional flight, I never took a physics class.
( but i do think he would tend to just rip off the bumper of the bus rather than pick the whole darn thing up...)

Make Cartoons, Not War
- Sue Blu
Well played, Clerks...
- Leonardo Leonardo(Clerks Cartoon)

The Bus "X" + "Y" (The Passengers)= 7 "THE ZIT" saves the day!

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 2:44 PM

OPTIMUS1998


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:


The Bus "X" + "Y" (The Passengers)= 7 "THE ZIT" saves the day!

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin


hey "ZIT", hows about you use your powers of not posting unless you plan on contributing something useful to the discussion...instead of just TROLLing around?

- See how i'm not hittin 'em?

Make Cartoons, Not War
- Sue Blu
Well played, Clerks...
- Leonardo Leonardo(Clerks Cartoon)


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Saturday, November 29, 2008 2:46 PM

OPTIMUS1998


double post

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:07 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by optimus1998:
double post

7

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:32 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:


Hello,

Well, if he could change the weight of the object he was picking up, I guess it would be less of a strain on the object to support its own weight. Hence, it would be less likely to break apart.



But he picks it up and swings it around like a club, or throws it - so we're to accept that Superman can perform gravity tricks and make things like cars weigh next to nothing, yet when he swings them or throws them, they still have the MASS of a car - and he still swings 'em by the grille or the fender without really damaging those parts of the car.

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:09 PM

FREELANCERTEX


...it's a comic book.


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Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:39 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Freelancer, of course it's a comic book. A source of entertainment. And behold, we use it as such.

Of course, the concept of discussing a form of entertainment in detail should not be alien to the frequenters of a fan forum site.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


How to spin a truck by its bumper(kinda).

http://www.fordvehicles.com/f150behindthescenes/?searchid=426441|28121
033|205363816


Doesn't even need a superhero.

edit to add: Obviously, after the first time trying to use the bumper, Superman found that the tow hooks were the place to grab for truck-tossing. Superheroes can learn, you know.
"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:23 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Well, if he could change the weight of the object he was picking up, I guess it would be less of a strain on the object to support its own weight. Hence, it would be less likely to break apart.

Change the mass of the bus? HK said changing superman’s mass, not the bus, but perhaps that’s what he meant. If the bus had less mass, but retained its stress integrity, then perhaps. But there would be responses to that. For instance a bus with a low enough mass that it could be picked up by its grill, would respond to atmosphere conditions. Like throwing a piece of styrofoam, it wouldn’t travel far and could exhibit wild variations in attitude. Furthermore, it wouldn’t have the mass to damage anything it came in contact with upon landing. Also there would be strange effects, because fundamental changes in mass creates a force, the same way fundamental changes in velocity create force.


Well, the leverage issue would be solved if he weighed a good deal more than the bus I was thinking. The guy is able to make his body stong and hard as steal or supple as flesh, it would seem, so something weird is going on there. Beyond that, I'm thinking about Superman increasing his own gravitational field, artificially if you will, manipulating it in a conscious way to affect the bus, so the bus would be gravitationally attracted to him. The field of this gravity would be under the control of Superman's conscious will, naturally, so he could focus it on the bus in his hands alone and not the overall gravity of the planet around him. This kind of power would be handy and could account for any number of godlike abilities.

HKCavalier


This entire thing is giving me a headache...

BTW, how could Steve Austin pick a car's back end up off the ground without tearing the bionic arm out of his shoulder?
I- I just never got that....


The E=MC2 Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:47 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by optimus1998:
...umm aren't weight and Mass different things??

An object weighs what it weighs because of its mass.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
An object weighs what it weighs because of its mass.



And the gravitational field in which it finds itself. If there's no local gravity, an object doesn't weigh anything, although it still has mass.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:30 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
An object weighs what it weighs because of its mass.



And the gravitational field in which it finds itself. If there's no local gravity, an object doesn't weigh anything, although it still has mass.

"Keep the Shiny side up"


Mass + gravity x velocity = extinct dinos.


The nuthin' from nuthin' Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 12:45 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
An object weighs what it weighs because of its mass.



And the gravitational field in which it finds itself. If there's no local gravity, an object doesn't weigh anything, although it still has mass.

That really doesn't make as much sense, in this context, as it might first seem. Gravity is a property of mass. And the Earth’s gravity is generated by the Earth. The bus’ gravity is generated by the bus. The two attract each other. If you change the bus’ gravity, you’ve changed its mass, not the Earth. If you change the Earth’s gravity, then you’ll affect everything on the earth. So it really is the mass of the bus that is being manipulated.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:00 PM

CHRISISALL


Coneheads eat mass quantities.


The obtuse Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:49 PM

OPTIMUS1998


Finn-
Again I never went past High school Chemistry,or algebra 2( which i wasn't too hot at mind you) but your mass/gravity correlations do not seem to make much sense. what you are saying is that buy changing the local gravitational field around an object, you have reduced the amount of atoms in the object????

here are 2 links that i hope will lend some light to this whole mass/weight/gravity question...

http://www.npl.co.uk/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.1380

and yeah, this one is wikipedia, so it could be complete bunk, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_versus_weight

Make Cartoons, Not War
- Sue Blu
Well played, Clerks...
- Leonardo Leonardo(Clerks Cartoon)

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:13 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by optimus1998:
Finn-
Again I never went past High school Chemistry,or algebra 2( which i wasn't too hot at mind you) but your mass/gravity correlations do not seem to make much sense. what you are saying is that buy changing the local gravitational field around an object, you have reduced the amount of atoms in the object????

Essentially, yes. You don’t seem to understand that weight is a measurement of mass. Mass is an intrinsic property of matter to resist changes in motion. Gravity is a force associated with matter, proportional to mass. Weight is simply a measurement. If you take as your baseline a certain gravitational field, then weight can be a measurement of the quantity of mass. Gravity is a property of mass. To change a gravitational field, you must change the mass that gravity is associated with.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:16 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by optimus1998:
what you are saying is that buy changing the local gravitational field around an object, you have reduced the amount of atoms in the object????


No, he's saying- what is he saying? I think it's that the mass determines stuff, not that you can reduce it. And a gravitational field (or lack thereof) would certainly not affect an object's mass.


The PhDuh Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
To change a gravitational field, you must change the mass that gravity is associated with.



Nevermind

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:25 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
To change a gravitational field, you must change the mass that gravity is associated with.



Nevermind

First of all, all of you are talking about changing something you’re calling “local gravitational fields,” as if there is a button on my iphone that will do that. What does it mean to change a gravitational field? And what is a “local” gravitational field. Gravity is a property of mass, so if you want a certain mass to be less effected by gravity, then you have to do something to that mass in order for that to be the case. Right?




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:40 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Gravity is a property of mass, so if you want a certain mass to be less effected by gravity, then you have to do something to that mass in order for that to be the case. Right?



A graviton inhibitor would do it without needing to alter mass...but that's something I'm still working on. Have any dough you'd like to invest?


The magnetic Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:49 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Gravity is a property of mass, so if you want a certain mass to be less effected by gravity, then you have to do something to that mass in order for that to be the case. Right?



A graviton inhibitor would do it without needing to alter mass...but that's something I'm still working on. Have any dough you'd like to invest?

Well, I’m not sure how a graviton inhibitor would work, but if the name is any indication then I’m assuming your inhibiting the gravitons from the mass, which means you probably are effecting the mass in some way.

And I'm going to take a wait n'see on that particular investment.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:03 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Well, I’m not sure how a graviton inhibitor would work, but if the name is any indication then I’m assuming your inhibiting the gravitons from the mass, which means you probably are effecting the mass in some way.

Actually, although mass creates gravity, the gravity itself is a kind of magnetism that works in unseen quantum particles called gravitons, which is, of course, how the Big Bang originated in the first place. A graviton inhibitor emits particular fields of artificially created reverse polarized gravitons to neutralize this inherent attraction between atoms.
Or something like that.
Quote:



And I'm going to take a wait n'see on that particular investment.



That's what Frank Bros. Studios said about talkies.
Now you know why you never heard of them before.


The bold inventor Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 4:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

BTW, how could Steve Austin pick a car's back end up off the ground without tearing the bionic arm out of his shoulder?
I- I just never got that....


He can't, lol.

Trust me, no matter what form of attachment you use, and I use the very best, a prosthetic limbs weakest link is where it connects to the flesh both because that area is usually badly damaged from whatever caused loss of the limb, and also because the mechanical interface is often far less than perfect.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, December 1, 2008 4:03 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Gravity is a property of mass. And the Earth’s gravity is generated by the Earth. The bus’ gravity is generated by the bus. The two attract each other. If you change the bus’ gravity, you’ve changed its mass, not the Earth. If you change the Earth’s gravity, then you’ll affect everything on the earth. So it really is the mass of the bus that is being manipulated.



One of the classic anti-gravity methods in scifi is to not change the masses of attacting objects, but to shield one object from the gravitational field of the other, thus rendering it weightless in relation to that object (and, no, I don't know how this shield would be generated). This also allows for the use of pressor and tractor beams.

So in the two scenarios, you got either:
- Superman somehow reducing the mass of the bus while he's in contact with it, spinning it up in its reduced-mass state, and having it return to full mass when he releases it to fly across the city(if this is his method, he might also fly by reducing his own mass, although how he propels himself is still open). or,
- He shields the bus from the gavitational field of Earth. It maintains the same mass, making it harder to spin up (unless he can vector gravity to give an assist) and the bus still has full mass as it flies out of the range of the gravity shield across the city.

You know, for the Superman flying aspect, gravity control, rather than mass control, seems a more likely method. If Superman can either shield from or intensify the force of gavity, he can basically push or pull himself around, whith no additional propulsion needed.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, December 1, 2008 4:07 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
a prosthetic limbs weakest link is where it connects to the flesh

I knew it! That dumb TV show!!
We let too much crap slide for the sake of 'entertainment'. Why not just let Marshall Dillon on Gunsmoke hit guys from 500 yards with his six-shooter? Let Joel beat up a bear with only a snowshoe on Northern Exposure? Have Peter on Heroes blow himself up in a nuclear blast, yet somehow survive it intact?
...wait...they did that last one, didn't they...?


The demanding Chrisisall

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Monday, December 1, 2008 4:14 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:



- He shields the bus from the gravitational field of Earth. It maintains the same mass, making it harder to spin up (unless he can vector gravity to give an assist) and the bus still has full mass as it flies out of the range of the gravity shield across the city.

You know, for the Superman flying aspect, gravity control, rather than mass control, seems a more likely method. If Superman can either shield from or intensify the force of gravity, he can basically push or pull himself around, with no additional propulsion needed.


I find these explanations satisfactory for my purposes. Good work, Geez.


The ameliorated Chrisisall

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Monday, December 1, 2008 5:02 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
You know, for the Superman flying aspect, gravity control, rather than mass control, seems a more likely method. If Superman can either shield from or intensify the force of gavity, he can basically push or pull himself around, whith no additional propulsion needed.

I don’t think I’m getting the message across that gravity and mass aren’t that easily separated, but that’s probably not a real important issue from a sci fi standpoint.

From a sci-fi standpoint, usually gravity is looked at as a general relativity issue and not a quantum effect, which is that gravity is viewed as a distortion in space and not a mediated force. For the purposes of flight, that works better (although from a physics standpoint it really doesn’t matter.) By distorting the space around him, superman could contract the space in front of him, thereby causing him to move rapidly and effortlessly. Such a distortion would create a non-inertial frame in which superman would experience no inertial effects as if in free fall (i.e. appear to stop and go instantly and make sharp turns without banking.) A similar argument could be made of the bus. While this is an attractive explanation from a sci-fi standpoint, it should be noted that it is purely speculative from a physics standpoint. In fact, most physicists have dismissed it, since it violates matter explanation of general relativity.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, December 1, 2008 5:12 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
By distorting the space around him, superman could contract the space in front of him, thereby causing him to move rapidly and effortlessly.

How would that affect Lois in his arms? Would it be a distortion a human could survive? And if so, what about a bird flying into his path, would it also not be 'distorted' in a kind of wake?

Kryptonian Memory Bank gives this theory a thumbs down.


The Geezer-agreeing Chrisisall

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