REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

If you find air travel stressful, you might be an Islamic Jihadist

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Thursday, December 4, 2008 19:10
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Tuesday, December 2, 2008 10:46 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I found this article on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/12/02/airport.security/index.html

And I was appalled. Never mind the horrible idea of machines trying to guess how stressed or anxious you are. (Which, you know, describes air travel pretty thoroughly for me.) But who is to say WHY you are stressed or anxious? Well, the authorities are, apparently. Look for mind-reading biometric machines soon in an airpport near you. And whatever you do, don't learn to read arabic.

Think Pure Thoughts.

--Anthony

P.S. I guess I can no longer get miffed at the 'rediculous tinfoil hat crowd.'

P.P.S. When terrorists start to commit acts of terror while hopped up on valium or anti-psychotic meds, I'm going to laugh a bitter laugh.


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, December 2, 2008 11:13 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"One firm, WeCU (pronounced "We See You") Technologies, employs a combination of infra-red technology, remote sensors and imagers, and flashing of subliminal images, such as a photo of Osama bin Laden."

AH HA ! In a psychology class I was a test subject for subliminal images. Turns out my visual processing deficit makes me immune. I can't see the bloody things ! I KNEW it would be handy, some day.

"For example, passengers could use an automated check-in system or gaze at a screen with departures information without realizing they've just been exposed to the words "Islamic jihad" written in Arabic."

AnthonyT: And whatever you do, don't learn to read arabic.

How true. I put that on my list of things to do, or not do, as the case may be. I wonder about my Arabic friends, though ... I wonder of you can beat the system with priming ...

" ... a system that detects a passenger's behavioral intentions by scanning their every step ..."

What if you have scoliosis, or a gouty toe ?

"... a "smart seat," or cushion full of hidden biometric sensors that could provide a more detailed read on someone sitting in an airport waiting area ..."

Oh, the fun the watchers will have with this. People (both sexes) average 40 sexual thoughts per day. Somehow, I think this will show up in those biometric seats.

"Nemesysco's systems work as an "emotion detector," ... that can differentiate between a "normal" voice and a "stressed" voice."

I really hope flying doesn't make anyone nervous --- at all.


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Tuesday, December 2, 2008 12:40 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Got any better suggestions?

Or we could just dump all the security and hope everything turns out OK.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, December 2, 2008 1:13 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


It would involve international police work to find and target the actual terrorists rather than screening tens of millions of innocent air travelers in the US (or trillions of innocent phone calls, emails, bank transactions, and website visits) each year, and without developing databases containing information on everyone.

But, where would be the fun in that, eh Geezer ? So much more enjoyable to spy on people.

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Tuesday, December 2, 2008 1:49 PM

WHOZIT


Would any of this have stopped that guy from taking a dump on the food cart a few years back?

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Tuesday, December 2, 2008 3:13 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Geezer, I'd actually be in favor of dropping much of the existing security, rather than adding more layers.

I've often thought that the best possible response to 9/11 would have been to arm the pilots, expand the air marshall program, and rebuild the twin towers ASAP exactly where they stood.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, December 2, 2008 6:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA


How bout real security instead of security theatre ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater

Be a damn novel concept for once.

-F

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:14 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
It would involve international police work to find and target the actual terrorists...



Yep. We can find their training camps in the tribal zones of Pakistan and the Pakistani army and police will go right in and clean them out, just like they've done with the Taliban.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:22 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I've often thought that the best possible response to 9/11 would have been to arm the pilots, expand the air marshall program, and rebuild the twin towers ASAP exactly where they stood.


I agree 100%
I hate the Tower lights
Airport screening is a victory for terrorism.


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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:28 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
We can find their training camps in the tribal zones of Pakistan and the Pakistani army and police will go right in and clean them out, just like they've done with the Taliban


I'm not so sure about the ease of that. Much of the "army" is loyal to the Taliban and Al Qaida, although I'm certainly not against a good effort this time. The other big problem is Saudi money which funds all this crap all oveer the world. I'd be thrilled beyond words if Obama and Hillary would strongly address our relationship with them. Bush never did, and because of that vulgar double standard, our "war on terror" is a joke in many ways.

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I've often thought that the best possible response to 9/11 would have been to arm the pilots, expand the air marshall program...



Whereas I would prefer that possible terrorists be stopped at the gate, rather than having the guy who's supposed to be flying the plane get into a shootout with them in a pressurized tube crammed with people at 37,000 feet.

I Dunno. I've flown quite a bit since 9/11, including internationally, and - after procedures were shaken out - I haven't found the security checks very intrusive at all. Never spent more than a few minutes in line(usually less than in the ticketing line). Never met a rude or harrassing agent. The one time I forgot and left a small knife in my briefcase, I was given the option to leave the line and mail it home(it was a cheapo, so I just let them have it). Given the choice between having to take my shoes off for a few seconds and being caught in a gunfight while strapped in a seat with nowhere to hide, I'll wear loafers.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:47 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
I'm not so sure about the ease of that. Much of the "army" is loyal to the Taliban and Al Qaida, although I'm certainly not against a good effort this time.



We really need that 'sarcasm' emoticon.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:09 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Then you're damned lucky, Geeze.

There was almost a *serious* incident over a pack of these cack-handed dunsels feeling up and more or less sexually harrassing a girl in south carolina, bringing her to the point of tears and emotional breakdown, which of course would have then merited arrest, strip search and the like... grrrr


But the party she was waiting for showed up about that time, see...

She was the wife of a platoon leader coming back from Iraq, and the whole platoon right behind him, too.

You've no idea how close that one came to something... bad.

The utter lack of accountability with these goons has lead to some serious misbehavior, and has attracted the very scum of the earth to those positions due to that lack, every petty tinhat "you will respect mah authori-tay" rocketjock punkass bitch we in the security biz hate winding up with seems to have gravitated there.

And what's worse, there not even any good!

I say that from the perspective of someone who knows something about this kinda thing, dude, they SUCK.

And it's all for naught anyhows when all some berk who wants to do us harm has to do is come in via way of Mexico, dress like a local and hop the fence down in Nogales, which is what they would DO were they any kind of competent.

Simply put three guys on every plane, one in the cockpit on the ride along seat, one in the kitchenette by the access door, and one in plainclothes amongst the passengers at random, armed with weapons firing glasier safety rounds.

Oh, and till they clean up their act, I will NOT fly - imagine the hassle I have to deal with when my prosthetic and all the damn metal bits inside set off the detectors and I gotta strip to my skivvies and play twenty questions for an hour and a half AND miss my goddamn flight, which I then don't get reimbursed for, and have to fucking drive anyway plus being out $185.60 for the plane ticket on top of it.

Frankly, the airlines deserve to financially strangle as folk rent cars instead cause it's not worth the bullshit - maybe then they'll apply some pressure to make it less of an ordeal to get on a freakin plane, heh.

But no, like everybloodybody else they'll just go howling for a bailout to duck the results of their obviously bad business practices, and then pass the cost both in taxes and higher rates, onto us poor peons, *hissss*


Oh, and btw - my body language practically screams suppressed rage, which is imho an honest and completely logical response to the thought of having to put up with lame, ineffective security theatre bullshit at the hands of some ego-stroking assclown without a clue, isn't it now ?

Punishing people for human emotion, that's a damned dark path to go walkin down too, ever seen the movie Equilibrium ?

What's next - sense crimes ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Yep. We can find their training camps in the tribal zones of Pakistan and the Pakistani army and police will go right in and clean them out, just like they've done with the Taliban."

Yeah, like boy George even tried. In his mind Taliban is spelled I-R-A-Q.

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:29 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


This is just using machines to do what people already do. I’m not sure why this is so alarming. I would prefer that the people continue to do it, since I’m not confident a computer can really pick up on all the stuff that a person can or make value judgments the way a person can, but a sensor will always read the same information the same way, so the tinfoil hat types can’t accuse the computer of abusing its authority when their imaginations run away with them or they want to be soft on terrorism. And it takes a long time to train a person to do this kind of work, which is a much underappreciated job, I can imagine.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:35 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"This is just using machines to do what people already do."

No, it's not. What PEOPLE do - people like Valerie Plame - is inflitrate target groups to learn who are the decision makers and what they specifically intend to do.

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:46 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"This is just using machines to do what people already do."

No, it's not. What PEOPLE do - people like Valerie Plame - is inflitrate target groups to learn who are the decision makers and what they specifically intend to do.

We’re not talking CIA NOC, rue! We’re talking about Israeli airport security and the use of profilers who watch and actively engage passengers in conversation to search for psychological clues that help to identify their motives. And that is why El Al is one of the safest airports in the world, despite its location.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And I'M talking about using 'humint' to gather actual information on real terrorists rather than treat ever single innocent person as a suspect who needs a data file.

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:51 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
And I'M talking about using 'humint' to gather actual information on real terrorists rather than treat ever single innocent person as a suspect who needs a data file.

That’s wonderful, but that’s not the topic.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:59 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


BTW - the use of ever-present computers and large-scale databases is not just quantitatively different from normal security procedure, it's qualitatively different.

You could never deploy enough people to do that job, and so, that kind of continuous surveillance on everyone would never be possible. With the capacity made available through using computers everyone is treated as a suspect, everyone is surveilled, everyone acquires a permanent database entry.

The difference is in approach - you either treat it as a problem of a needle in a haystack and scale-up to examine every piece, or you use insight and logic to direct your efforts to where they are needed.

Finn - didn't you learn the lesson from the last 8 years - that no amount of blind sweeps and technology can replace the human intelligence factor ?

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:00 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The topic is how to avoid terrorist attacks - no ?

And whether universal surveillance is an appropriate tool for the job.

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:19 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Finn - didn't you learn the lesson from the last 8 years - that no amount of blind sweeps and technology can replace the human intelligence factor ?

I learned that during the Clinton years with everyone else who isn’t slow, but glad you could catch up. The last 8 years have been an attempt to recapture HUMINT capability. But like I said, this isn’t about foreign intel, this is about airport security within our own borders. And I have been and continue to be in support of profilers, just like those used by Israeli airport security. Unfortunately, due largely to the efforts of people like you, the term profiler has been defined as “racist,” like everything else the Left doesn’t like, and as a result of that, we don’t have the kind of security that we should have in US airports. So while I would prefer that US airports to employ human profilers to go around and talk with passengers to identify behavior consistent with intent instead of sensors looking for congruent autonomous responses, I’ll settle for a computer system that does something similar.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:26 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The last 8 years have been an attempt to recapture HUMINT capability."

Yeah, that's why Cheney outed Valerie Plame - the one person in a postition to keep accurate tabs on Iran's nuclear development.


"... this isn’t about foreign intel ..."

It's not ? Are you saying that al Qaeda has a large domestic presence right here in the USA ?

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:47 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"The last 8 years have been an attempt to recapture HUMINT capability."

Yeah, that's why Cheney outed Valerie Plame - the one person in a postition to keep accurate tabs on Iran's nuclear development.

Plame was desk jockey, not a foreign operative. And if all you can do is think in anti-Bush sound bites, then you obviously have no understanding of the issue and no interest in understanding the issue.
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
It's not ? Are you saying that al Qaeda has a large domestic presence right here in the USA ?

Are you saying that we shouldn’t be concerned with airport security until Al Qaeda has a large domestic presence in the US? All it takes is a few hijackers, which Al Qaeda has already shown they can plant and activate.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:09 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


No - what I'm saying is that terrorist attacks - like the one on 9/11 - are organized and carried out by foreigners. And that targeting our efforts where they belong is much more efficient than trying to screen tens of millions of innocent domestic passengers (or billions, wordwide) for the roughly 2 people per year averge who might wreak havoc. And it preserves our liberties better as well.

BTW - nice strawman.

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Profiling, eh ?

So all pretty, well-endowed girls are a veritable fountain of terrorism then ?

Cause damn sure that's the profile that gets the most "attention" from the screeners.

HUMINT is only as good as the quality of the personnel assigned to it, and that explains handily why ours is such crap, does it not ?

And as with machines, GIGO - programmed by dolts without a clue, the machines will respond like dolts without a clue.

They've shot themselves in the foot quite badly, cause due to their own initial hiring practices, nobody good enough to do the job will work for them, leaving them with the sludge scraped off the bottom of the barrel and regular security companies rather ecstatic of it's absence cause it doesn't munge up THEIR hiring pool anymore.

Seriously, they're SO bad they make the keystone cops look positively professional.

-F

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 12:54 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
No - what I'm saying is that terrorist attacks - like the one on 9/11 - are organized and carried out by foreigners. And that targeting our efforts where they belong is much more efficient than trying to screen tens of millions of innocent domestic passengers (or billions, wordwide) for the roughly 2 people per year averge who might wreak havoc. And it preserves our liberties better as well.

BTW - nice strawman.

It’s not a strawman. You brought up a point, and I showed you that it was wrong. You can accept the facts or not, but it’s not a strawman. And I am all for foreign intelligence, but that’s not going to be enough, because Al Qeada does not need, as you put it, “a large domestic presence.” All they need is a few terrorists.

And as far as liberties are concerned, how are the liberties of the little old lady who gets stripped searched because of some moronic policy of searching people by random. If that’s so wonderful, why don’t we apply that to crime? Let’s not bother with criminal investigations, instead let’s just pick people at random out of the populous and search them to see if they’ve committed a crime. The random searches are far worse to liberty then profiling.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 1:30 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Finn

Aisde from civil liberties issues (no search or sezure without a warrant) here's the problem with depending on software to catch terrorists: worldwide, in order to work, statistically you'd have to have an negative error rate of less than 1 in 10 billion (by negative error rate I mean not getting a hit on a positive).

OTOH, again aside from civil liberties issues, even a positive error rate of 1% would get you 100 million false hits (getting a hit on a negative).

The numbers don't pencil out.

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:05 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Finn

Aisde from civil liberties issues (no search or sezure without a warrant) here's the problem with depending on software to catch terrorists: worldwide, in order to work, statistically you'd have to have an negative error rate of less than 1 in 10 billion (by negative error rate I mean not getting a hit on a positive).

But you’re okay with randomly searching people without a warrant, yeah that’s much better. Let’s humiliate a random person along with the loss of liberty. In any event, if you don’t like the software, we can use human profilers, which I prefer. Failing that, the software is far better then what we are using.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:56 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Cause damn sure that's the profile that gets the most "attention" from the screeners.


Hrm, I was wondering why I got stopped for two separate 'random bag screens' last time I flew.
No, Frem, they did not feel me up, or in fact touch me, but I did get pulled aside twice so they could zap my bag.
And you know, the funny thing is, the little swiss army knife I'd forgotten was in there while I was packing wasn't found in either of those random 'zaps.' Hrm. It would have made my day a lot easier if it had been. Yeah, they let me go back and mail it to myself, I got to keep my knife, but I did have to go back and then go through security all over again. Thankfully I didn't miss my flight, but it was a headache.

[/sig]

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 3:53 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Simply put three guys on every plane, one in the cockpit on the ride along seat, one in the kitchenette by the access door, and one in plainclothes amongst the passengers at random, armed with weapons firing glasier safety rounds.



Fremd, do you lock your doors at home to help keep bad guys out, or do you leave them open to allow the crooks an unimpeded route to a gunfight in your living room, possibly filled with people? I'm just saying that the best outcome of a hijacking attempt, just like a gunfight, is for it to never start. Stopping potential hijackers at the gate, or, better yet, convincing them it's not worthwhile to go to the airport at all, seems like a pretty good solution. I'd rather spend a bit more on improving the TSA instead of dropping gate security and waiting 'til the guns come out to try and stop a hijacking.

Besides, there are appx. 30,000 commercial flights a day in the US alone. That's three shifts of 90,000 air marshals, plus admin and support - say 300,000 people. Where you gonna get that many trained folk you'd trust to shoot quickly and accurately in a very stressful situation? Consider how poorly supposedly well-trained police do in gunfights.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 5:04 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I suspect that the actual number would be much lower, since the same air marshalls would be present on multiple flights. You should also be able to eliminate the marshall in the cockpit, with the pilots being armed.

And of course, having these armed men in the plane is, to me, even more of a deterrent than the 'take off your shoes and discard bottled water' measures currently in place.

I also think it's important to note that none of these measures will prevent a plane from being destroyed in flight. They are only effective preventatives from having someone take control of the airplane. We spend a lot of time worrying about terrorists smuggling suitcase nukes into the country, but surface-to-air missiles are more likely, and I don't know a viable defense against it.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 5:51 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"But you’re okay with randomly searching people without a warrant ..."

Where did I say that ? Anywhere ? Can YOU find it ? I certainly didn't write it, or even hint it.

It's merely based on YOUR false dilemma - either we screen everyone electronically or we pull random people out for searching ! There's simply no other alternative !!!

READ my posts where I proposed an alternative - that wasn't either of those - three or four times already. And stop arguing with the voices in your head.

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 5:57 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I *think* Rue is advocating upping the Intel agency infiltration and observation of terrorist organizations in order to nip the bud at the source, rather than trying to dodge bullets downrange.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:10 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"But you’re okay with randomly searching people without a warrant ..."

Where did I say that ? Anywhere ? Can YOU find it ? I certainly didn't write it, or even hint it.

It's merely based on YOUR false dilemma - either we screen everyone electronically or we pull random people out for searching ! There's simply no other alternative !!!

READ my posts where I proposed an alternative - that wasn't either of those - three or four times already. And stop arguing with the voices in your head.

I see. So your solution, then, is to do nothing, until Al Qaeda has a “large domestic presence.” Neither is a good option, or one that I will accept.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Geeze, what my problem is...

Is not so much what they're doin tho that is annoying enough, it's that it DOES NOT WORK - it's mere theatre and ineffective, nothing but showmanship and extra hassle to appear like they're "doing something".

IF the threat was so huge as those getting nice fat budgets and the chance to stroke their egos keep telling us in order to justify that shit, don't ya think we woulda caught some by now regardless of how incompetent the screeners are on sheer chance and numbers alone ?

It's a massive overkill response to a completely overblown threat that does naught more than make air travel a pain in the ass by treating everyone as a suspect - which does no social good either.

That is NOT real security, it's security theatre, at it's finest.
Quote:

You should also be able to eliminate the marshall in the cockpit, with the pilots being armed.

I disagree - I want the pilots focusing on actually flying the plane, you know ?
Besides, if they don't have to make the choice between flying the plane and defending themselves that leaves them free to make the bad guys situation tougher by either throwing them side to side or even pinning them to the ceiling depending on the size and agility of the plane itself.

Just them being there is an actual and substantial deterrent, since terrorists PLAY on the fact that folks are disarmed for their convenience before boarding a plane, and have been conditioned to not resist, they're exploiting a situation we created, just like a mass-shooter looks for a gun free zone to do it in so they have easy access to unarmed victims.

Placing properly trained, armed folk in that zone turns it from a potential shooting gallery, to a potential engagement, something a bad guy doesn't want cause the odds are no longer wholly in his favor.
Quote:

advocating upping the Intel agency infiltration and observation of terrorist organizations in order to nip the bud at the source

That was actually a large part of General Odoms job, which he was right damned good at, to be honest - he knew that real security meant quashing this crap before it ever came to the planning stages, nice and quietly so that the american public could sleep well at night unconcerned with such things - rather than trying to scare them witless with plots your own people cooked up and tried to hang on patsies to justify ever-increasing yet ineffective measures.
Quote:

We spend a lot of time worrying about terrorists smuggling suitcase nukes into the country, but surface-to-air missiles are more likely, and I don't know a viable defense against it.

There's some, and I am not at liberty to discuss in detail, but it's one of the few measures HomeSec has taken that I am completely on board with and do not mind my tax dollars being invested in - in fact, the same geek types who came up with the cellphone jammer and taserproof vest offered a lot of useful input to the concept and execution in spite of their generally adversarial relationship with HomeSec simply because the idea of that happening horrifies us all.

No security is ever perfect, but there is, thankfully, some mitigation of THAT risk, and it's actually well done, but that's the limit of what I can or should tell you about it, sorry.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:26 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Finn, I think you've misinterpreted Rue's talking points as something else entirely.

Frem, Commercial airliners have 2 or more pilot type dudes in the cockpit. I honestly think one of them can point a firearm at the locked door while the other turns the plane upside down.

On other topics, I'm glad that 'top men' are working on the problem of SAMs.

Anthony: Who?

Frem: Top-Men

*cue Indiana Jones music*

;-)

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:27 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I see. So your solution, then, is to do nothing, until Al Qaeda has a “large domestic presence.” Neither is a good option, or one that I will accept."

Nope. Never proposed it, never hinted at it. Try reading my posts again.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:31 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"I see. So your solution, then, is to do nothing, until Al Qaeda has a “large domestic presence.” Neither is a good option, or one that I will accept."

Nope. Never proppsoed it, never even hinted at it. Try reading my posts again.

I did. You’ve spent this entire thread avoiding the issue of airport security, and now you tell me that you don’t even want to do what is being done right now. So the reasonable conclusion is that you don’t want anything done about airport security.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:32 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Finn, I think you've misinterpreted Rue's talking points as something else entirely.

If I am, then Rue has my apologies. Perhaps you could show me where I’m misinterpreting Rue’s position on airport security.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"I'M talking about using 'humint' to gather actual information on real terrorists rather than treat ever single innocent person as a suspect who needs a data file."

Hello,

Here, Rue seems to explicitly state that she wants to use human intelligence resources to collect information on terrorist groups at the front end, rather than casting a wide net at the back end.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Geeze, what my problem is...

Is not so much what they're doin tho that is annoying enough, it's that it DOES NOT WORK - it's mere theatre and ineffective, nothing but showmanship and extra hassle to appear like they're "doing something".



I gotta disagree. It works by the only objective criteria we can apply. Since 9/11 no planes have been hijacked.

To hijack now, since cockpit doors are locked and the passengers know their choice is probably resistance or death, you need several armed folk on the same plane, five or six, at least. The odds of getting more than one through security, even if the screeners aren't the brightest, is awful low.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the folks caught with knives they 'forgot' were in their bags weren't actually potential hijackers who lost their weapons in screening and just rode to their destination rather than try to take a plane with their bare hands, and possibly fail. To be effective, terrorist attacks have to succeed. A failed attempt ruins the myth of invincibility.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:54 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I would point out that there was a long while before 9/11 when no planes were hijaacked either.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


AnthonyT

Yes, my point was that using good int'l police work to track terrorists and stop them before they get to the airport is a better, less intrusive and more efficient method of stopping hijackings.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 5:29 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"I'M talking about using 'humint' to gather actual information on real terrorists rather than treat ever single innocent person as a suspect who needs a data file."

Hello,

Here, Rue seems to explicitly state that she wants to use human intelligence resources to collect information on terrorist groups at the front end, rather than casting a wide net at the back end.

Exactly. Rue is talking about foreign intelligence, not airport security. In fact, she seems to be saying that foreign intelligence should be used in lieu of airport security. If you asked someone what they wanted to do about home security and their response was that they wanted the police to deal with crime on the other side of town before it got to their house, would it not be right to conclude that they weren’t interested in home security? I don’t feel that I’m misrepresenting Rue. I think Rue is being disingenuous in trying to pass off foreign intelligence as airport security. Perhaps Rue would like to clarify?

As I said, I’m all for foreign intelligence, but I don’t think we should use this as an excuse to ignore airport security. What happens if someone gets pasted our men overseas? What happens if the terrorists are domestic? It only takes a handful or possible even one hijacker.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I don't think she is advocating sending all the security home, and leaving a vacant revolving door in front of the airplanes.

Rather, she seems to be saying that the primary focus of effort should be on intelligence gathering and infiltration, with less emphasis on 8 ounce liquid bottles, shoes, and sophisticated electronic intention-reading devices.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:10 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I don't think she is advocating sending all the security home, and leaving a vacant revolving door in front of the airplanes.

Rather, she seems to be saying that the primary focus of effort should be on intelligence gathering and infiltration, with less emphasis on 8 ounce liquid bottles, shoes, and sophisticated electronic intention-reading devices.

And she seems to be saying, no random searches, no electronic surveillance and no profilers. She is being evasive about airport security, preferring instead to redirect the discussion away from that topic to foreign intelligence. If she would like to clarify her position, then fine, but until then, she is arguing for foreign intelligence in lieu of airport security.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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