REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Objective analysis of partisan arguments & talking points (hopefully)

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 19:05
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Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:26 AM

DREAMTROVE


In india, it's mixed in. There are ayurvedics that you can go to, but also a lot of doctors will prescribe ayurvedic treatments over modern ones, and the top spot for india for healthcare was attributed to the combination of the two by the UN.

Another statistic just reported, 38% of americans use alternative medicine now, up from 12% last time I checked.



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Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:28 AM

SWISH


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by swish:

Available data indicates he intentionally misled the people concerning WMD because he believed that the real dangers he perceived in the US's future - increased reliance on the whims of OPEC and economic upheaval due to high oil prices - could be prevented by winning control of Iraq's oil. And if he happened to find WMDs in Iraq along the way - hey, bonus.


See, I happen to believe this in part, but I can't call it *fact*...I don't see any hard data that nails this down, just a lot of circumstantial stuff, and so I'd call this 'opinion'.


The technical Chrisisall


I agree. I have "evidence" that satisfies me, but I don't expect it to convince most folks here, especially those who aren't even convinced by true and hard facts. I started writing my argument out, but it would take too damned long.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:32 AM

SWISH


swish: " Data shows that abortions will happen whether legal or not."

dreamtrove: "a) not at the same rate,"

But with a great deal more damage to the people involved, which may not be the point to you, but its pretty damned important to me.


dreamtrove: "Almost no one is objective, but worse, most people don't even understand the opposition position. This thread is littered with misinterpretations."

The invitation is out there for each side to have their say, and what's more, to state what they understand of the other side's position and hear if that fits or not. One party is not defining both sides. Chrisisall left it open, clearly stating: this is my best effort, please add to/change as you see fit.

I think the real interesting thing would be for folks to make an honest effort to argue the opposite side. I don't think some posters here would be capable of doing that. They would only throw out the usual strawmen, in effect tearing down the other side instead of trying to win it. Many posters here are incapable of letting go enough to really try and understand and defend the other viewpoint.

For what it's worth, my above argument about Bush's motivations in Iraq is actually against the idea that he is evil. I believe he was truly out to defend his country and its people, and thought he was making the kind of tough decisions that good leaders make in troubled times. Exactly the kind of tough calls that make us love a fictional character like Malcolm Reynolds so much. In a way, I do admire Bush for that. (I have to grit my teeth and leave out the many "but" statements I could make here!)

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:21 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Trying to legislate morality is idiotic.

-F

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 3:40 PM

DREAMTROVE


Frem

With all due respect, Trying to legislate is idiotic :)



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Sunday, December 14, 2008 3:41 PM

DREAMTROVE


I want to see the arguing stop. I think the only real constructive debate here is going on between PN and Frem. Most of the rest of this is just willing surrogates for hand me down ideology.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:01 PM

SWISH


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think the only real constructive debate here is going on between PN and Frem.





No disrespect meant to Frem. Or to PN, really. But... you've actually read PN's posts, right?

Or are you not serious?

*irony radar out of order*

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:38 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

I think the only real constructive debate here is going on between PN and Frem.

Umm, no offense...

But that's a DAMN scary thought, even to me!


-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:11 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is not to debate morality or to judge actions, but to establish simple fact as well as available data will permit.



Bullshit


SHUT UP, 6IX!!



post without an isall, isall

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:45 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The healthcare rating is based on a basic "no treatment" statistic which is "80% of all people who have a life threatening condition recover if they receive no care"



That is fascinating! How is this measured? Full recovery with absolutely zero adverse effects? What kind of life threatened condition? No care defined as "no care by medical workers and doctors" or literally no care?

Quote:

and so, if in Russia, those who do seek treatment have a 70% recovery rate, then that's a -10%. The US used to be at 82%, or +2%, but it has slipped.

The death totals are roughly the same now as well. In the US, about 1 million people are estimated to survive because they sought treatment, and around 900,000 die who wouldn't have, because they sought treatment.



But how can it be certain that they wouldn't have died if they had sought treatment? Is "woudn't have died" the same as full recovery? What about treatments that would have increased quality of life, if successful? Is this based on diagnoses or on this statistic you mention above?

Quote:


Still, this can't be applied blanketly: Not all conditions are equal. Appendicitis, you should probably go to the hospital. There are a lot of things that we think of as "definites," which probably are to be avoided.



Like what? :)

Quote:


Roughly 300,000 unnecessary deaths are attributed to "clerical error" wrong surgery, wrong medication, etc. Drug reactions to intentionally perscribed medications are a big part of the 900k, and on-site infections gotten in the hospital are a large part. The single largest statistical killed in the hospital is anaesthetic overdose or reaction in the surgery.



Are these errors due to sloppiness or are they "honest" mistakes? On-site infection should probably be preventable if all guidelines are properly followed, right?

Quote:


If you must have surgery, you should probably skip the anaesthesia. If you can't handle the pain, sorry, evolution might have just selected you out :)



Guess I was just a wimp when I had my appendix taken out with anaesthesia. :)

Quote:


I personally have had a lot of major surgery, and I'm very conscious of the need of people to maintain the right over treatment options. If I didn't have that right, and had taken the recommended course, I wouldn't be sending this message. I would be dead three times over. Possibly four, but definitely at least three.



Wow. How come your doctors would have been so eager to push unnecessary treatment, knowing it would kill you?

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:52 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
In india, it's mixed in. There are ayurvedics that you can go to, but also a lot of doctors will prescribe ayurvedic treatments over modern ones, and the top spot for india for healthcare was attributed to the combination of the two by the UN.

Another statistic just reported, 38% of americans use alternative medicine now, up from 12% last time I checked.





So this UN survey focused on the quality of the actual care received, rather than things like coverage and access to care, who pays for it, etc.? I'm no expert on India and maybe it's prejudice talking, but they do have a large part of their population living below the poverty line, if I am not mistaken, who might not have access to the healthcare system that got this apparently well-deserved top spot?

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Monday, December 15, 2008 6:01 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:


post without an isall, isall


Yikes!!!isall

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Monday, December 15, 2008 3:39 PM

DREAMTROVE


Rouka

Don't be a total dick. I know it may be hard.

1. Put your questions to the UN or WHO, not to me, I didn't make up the study.'

2. My guess is, yes, this is treatment actually received. Surprisingly, parts of africa do fairly well because the doctors do close to nothing. Places in africa where they try usually do really poorly.

3. My own treatments, this is where you come off ass a total ass, for reference, insulting the injured.

a) I was in a severe accident at 19, had my face ripped off, and had to have reconstructive surgery. I had numerous internal injuries. I received a lot of much needed care. Early on, a doctor came into my room and told me I had been cleared for a transfusion, but the blood was untested, and could carry an infection. He told me I would probably not survive if I refused the transfusion, but that I also would not survive long enough for the test results to come back. I refused the treatment. My friend Krishna, by coincidence, got that transfusion, and has since died of HIV, than the blood, which was pooled, was tainted with.

b) at 25, I became suddenly ill at my job, and drove to a clinic, which did some vital signs, which showed me with radically low numbers, in the line that I heard the nurse say "by rights, the patient should be already dead." It was not the first time I'd heard this, since the same thing had been said of me at 19. I knew this meant something was severely wrong. The hospital diagnosed me with gastrointeritis, gave me some medicine, and sent me home, telling me to call back in three days if I didn't feel better. Instead, when I felt much worse 8 hours later, I had to lie to get back into the hospital and get some actual tests, which showed conclusively that I had acute appendicitis, and less than 12 hours to live. Again, some medical treatment was essential, my ability to choose that treatment was as well.

c) at 32 a sudden illness created an overflow of adrenaline in my system, which was building to critical levels. I knew something was physically wrong. I asked to be checked out physically before anyone sent me to the psych ward, and was assured by the admissions that this would happen. It didn't. I spent three years in psychiatric care. I became a guinea pig, and had to refuse treatment for several drugs which made me so much worse that I felt I was going to die, and I also was able to refuse the recommended, I kid you not, shock treatment and frontal lobotomy. Eventually, I was able to sue for my release, do my own damn research, and discover that in fact, something was physically wrong with me, I had a gut infection which was preventing key precusors from entering my blood, and thereby getting to my brain. This had prompted the body to produce an excessive amount of adrenaline to attempt to correct the problem. Both of these had apparent mental side effects, but no amount of mental health treatment would have cured the infection and corrected the condition.

If we lose the ability to choose our treatment options for ourselves, we really have lost our own personal right to life.

Over and out from the living non-zombie dreamtrove
...is all


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Monday, December 15, 2008 4:13 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Wow. How come your doctors would have been so eager to push unnecessary treatment, knowing it would kill you?

Wow. You must have never worked in a hospital.

It's not exactly like on ER or St. Elsewhere everywhere...


The I-had-my-own-battles-with-Doctors-too Chrisisall

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Monday, December 15, 2008 4:21 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"That said, I think they sincerely believed in the WMDs. Here's why
a) Rummy had been there to deliver them
b) More importantly, it's a terrible excuse for war. If they were making it up, they would have thought of something better."

It's the ONLY excuse for a war. You have to show that a country poses an immediate threat in order to attack them first and not be considered an aggressor. And, while Bush made an awful lot of noise about WMDs and Hussein's (supposed) connection to terrorism, even he couldn't show the need for a 'pre-emptive' war (the legal kind), he had to call it a 'preventative' war (the illegal kind).


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Monday, December 15, 2008 4:39 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


DT -

If you could come up with a title or some other identifier for the study, I'd appreciate it. I looked and couldn't find anything.

That said, there's at least one error I can find in your post: the 80% figure is for people with any illness, not life-threatening ones. So, people with a sore throat, stuffy nose, minor infection etc will get better anyway, whether the doctor does anything or not.

The other 20% do need medical care.


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Monday, December 15, 2008 4:51 PM

DREAMTROVE


Rue,

I couldn't disagree more. There was no precedent at all for preemptive war under US law, or any support for it under international law. The vaguest lines that could have been drawn and still have some sort of precedent would have been to use the extermination of the kurds, and take the kosovo precedent. A better one would be to recognize kurdistan ahead of time, and they allow it to invite you in. When Saddam then invaded the secessionist kurd republic, you could then fight back, and maybe win some allies inside Iraq. This is what russia did with S. Ossetia, and it led to an alliance with Abkhazia. In a dictatorship like Iraq, Bush could have take the entire country by that manner, eventually.

What he did, or Cheney, Rummy, Wolfo and Perle did was idiotic. There was no support for the idea anywhere in US or international law. It was bound to make us enemies all over the place, and winning any war without allies is pretty damn near impossible. The smart move next, would have been to claim victory after deposing Saddam, which would disguise the fact that we were actually defeated by Al Sadr. Since "Regime Change" was a state motive, Saddam Gone, Al Sadr-backed democracy in place, claim victory and hold a parade, party over.

But what they did do is proof that they are morons. They poured all their effort in trying to destabilize the region, hiring militias, inciting sectarian violence, etc. It's exactly what Obama has planned for Afgh. and Pakistan, and towards the same ends: to hope that it spills into Iran and destabilized that nation, and the region. This is not conspiracy theory, it's stated public policy.

But simply to invade Iraq and institute regime change, WMDs was a moronic idea. They did it because they thought it was the one thing they could prove. They were not sure they could prove kurdish genocide. If they were, they would have gone for it. I think they're dumb, but they're not functionally retarded.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 5:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"There was no precedent at all for preemptive war under US law, or any support for it under international law. The vaguest lines that could have been drawn and still have some sort of precedent would have been to use the extermination of the kurds, and take the kosovo precedent."

Except the Kosovo stuff was ongoing at the time - not something 15+ years in the past as with the Kurds. And there was nothing going on against the Kurds at the time due to the no-fly zone.

There doesn't seem to have been an extant excuse along those lines for the US to have attacked Iraq.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 9:58 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rouka

Don't be a total dick. I know it may be hard.



Wow, name calling. I'm really impressed.

Quote:



1. Put your questions to the UN or WHO, not to me, I didn't make up the study.'



I would if you provided a link or some other way to find out just what study you are talking about. Right now all we have is your interpretation of a text that may or may not exist, if one wanted to be extreme about it. I'm sure it exists, but it is not within my means to fin dit. I tried googling for some of the things you mentioned and got nothing useful. So I ask you.

Quote:


2. My guess is, yes, this is treatment actually received. Surprisingly, parts of africa do fairly well because the doctors do close to nothing. Places in africa where they try usually do really poorly.



So it's not really the kind of "health care system" that people mean when they talk about the word, as in the financial aspect and who has the chance to receive care if they want/need it?

I'm all for non-standard medical practices if they work for people, but that does nothing to answer the question of cost. Nor does "they do fairly well in africa" contain any information about how this is measured. Just mortality rates or also quality of life?

Quote:


3. My own treatments, this is where you come off ass a total ass, for reference, insulting the injured.



How do I come off as an ass about this? I didn't ask you to describe your injuries, although I am very sorry you had to experience such terrible things. You used personal experience as a reference and I asked you something about it. How is that being an ass?

Quote:


If we lose the ability to choose our treatment options for ourselves, we really have lost our own personal right to life.



And nowhere did I argue against that.


If you want to consider me rude for asking you questions about the facts that you state... sorry, I'll just have to be one.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 10:01 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Wow. How come your doctors would have been so eager to push unnecessary treatment, knowing it would kill you?

Wow. You must have never worked in a hospital.

It's not exactly like on ER or St. Elsewhere everywhere...




I really really haven't. I know it's not like ER, as no one looked that pretty when I had my appendix taken out...
But I know very little about the interior workings, so I asked.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 10:02 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

That said, there's at least one error I can find in your post: the 80% figure is for people with any illness, not life-threatening ones. So, people with a sore throat, stuffy nose, minor infection etc will get better anyway, whether the doctor does anything or not.

The other 20% do need medical care.




Now this figure seems to make a whole lot more sense.

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:50 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I know it's not like ER, as no one looked that pretty when I had my appendix taken out...

LOL. The doctors that do plastic surgery are a whole lot easier on the eyes for some reason...
Quote:


But I know very little about the interior workings, so I asked.

Think about where you've worked- there's usually a few peeps that are great at their jobs, a group that are very competent, a group that slide by doing as little as possible, and a couple of real idiots- something like that, right?
Well, same thing in the hospital, so you're in trouble if you get the slackers, and dead if you get the idiots.


The simplifying Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:21 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I never saw experimental therapy forced on anyone in all the hospitals I worked at. Generally there are protocols that doctors are required to follow. If they don't, then Medicare, Medicaid or other insurance won't cover the treatment, and hospitals frown on that.

I did see doctors at a standstill on what to do with certain diseases: Legionnaires (when it was a mystery), human mad-cow disease, AIDS (when it was a mystery). I've seen doctors 'miss' a diagnosis, leading to inappropriate treatment. Plus, there are a few just plain bad doctors, nurses, and other health care professionals. And, sad to say, I've heard of one nurse who may have been either sadistic or just extremely callous to other people's pain.

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:24 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I know it's not like ER, as no one looked that pretty when I had my appendix taken out...

LOL. The doctors that do plastic surgery are a whole lot easier on the eyes for some reason...



Somehow I do NOT mind that I haven't had personal opportunity to find out for sure. *shudders*

Quote:


Quote:


But I know very little about the interior workings, so I asked.

Think about where you've worked- there's usually a few peeps that are great at their jobs, a group that are very competent, a group that slide by doing as little as possible, and a couple of real idiots- something like that, right?
Well, same thing in the hospital, so you're in trouble if you get the slackers, and dead if you get the idiots.



Riiiiiiight. Also: Ouch. I do not enjoy thinking of hospitals the way I think of the office. It obviously makes sense... But.

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


'Expert' medical programs out-diagnose doctors every time.

I've always wondered why they aren't used more.

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:04 AM

DREAMTROVE


The Hussein govt. was under seige during those 15 years, and there's no statute of limitations on genocide. I'm not going to argue the point. I thought it was obvious.

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:09 AM

DREAMTROVE


Rue,

Newsflash: lucky you. I was held down by six men and injected with medicine that I was not only allergic to, but that this fact was already on my medical record to which the non-doctors had access to, if they had bothered to read. My crime? Still being awake and using the bathroom at 4am, which was "passed hours." They very nearly killed me.

My respect for the medical profession, slightly less than for government.

And I was lucky, I've heard much worse stories from "permanent care facilities." And even those pale in comparison to nursing homes. And those pale in comparison to prisoners and soldiers.

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:19 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
They very nearly killed me.


Peeps that never been on the wrong end of abuse of authority, whether in government or medicine, have a hard time grasping how devastating an effect they can be allowed to have at a word or whim.


The not-laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Psychiatric 'care' is an issue of which I have no personal knowledge. In the past, it was subject to all sorts of abusive practices. But in the last few decades, AFAIK they are allowed to hold you for 36 hours, after which they are required to release you - except in very rare circumstances. DT's experience may have been before the 1980s when 'deinstitutionalization' became all the rage, and when these limitations on psychiatric 'care' came into being.

BTW Just being female and (in the past) poor has put me on the wrong side of what I can claim a 'right' to. I think I understand better than most the implied threat of authority.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:56 PM

DREAMTROVE


Rue

No, it was more recently. That's 36 hours *after* you file your appeal for release. They can use those thirty six hours to try to prove that you are a danger to yourself or to others.

My brother is a law professor, so I called him, and learned about the appeal process, something I was never informed about at the hospital. This was one of several occasssions, but the first two years they were content to hold me for a week, send me home for outpatient care, and bring me back in. The third year, a different hospital saw me as a meal ticket. An in patient looney is worth $1,000/day or more, plus, the opportunity to experiment. They went ballistic on me for 36 hours but were unable to make a case that I was a danger to myself and to others, even after injecting me with a mix of 6 different drugs. By the time I left, I was hallucinating all over the place, but did a very good job of faking being sane.

It was hear that I learned about "permanent care."
Those guys had horror stories that put the hollywood imitation to shame. There they do not have to release you. But in order to be in permanent care, they have to deem you a danger to yourself or to others, for which the grounds are very light. When they pump you full drugs, not so much as tipping over a chair is tricky business. They were able to induce a couple of seizures though, which did some permanent damage. Can't miss meal time, or shower time, can't speak up, act up, no matter what you're on or what condition your in, or you could be on your way to permanent care. Scary world.

Never, anywhere, during three years of psychiatric care, was I allowed any actual medical care, even from clinics, to find out if something was actually wrong with me, which it was. Here in the US. I fled to Hungary actually, which is where I was able to unravel what the real situation was. Afterword, undoing the damage done by psychiatric care has been another issue.

BTW, I grew up very poor. I used to work for 15 cents a day, that bought you a bowl of soup. Life is tough all over. There's no comparison. Sorry.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:13 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hey DT

Did you ever see the movie Jaws ? I wasn't trying to spark a 'who's got the biggest scar' contest, but if you want - ok, you win, hands down. I was just trying to make a point w/ ChrisIsAll that I have been on the 'wrong side' of the man.

As for the laws - I'd appreciate it if you could provide some information. My father (now deceased) fell and broke his hip due to Parkinson's. The anesthetics, pain pills, LDopa et al sent him into permanent hallucinations/ delusions. Being off of all medication for weeks barely made a dent. But he kept threatening to sign himself out, broken hip and all.

(He also said that he took a taxi to visit a family member in Buffalo - who'd been living out of state for over 20 years and was still out of state - and found a 'disgusting ' party going on ... that he took his 'cart' - he couldn't remember the word wheelchair and English was not his first language - and saw they had a bank of phones in the basement and people madly answering them b/c the place was bankrupt and going to close down ... that he was eating 'delicious' cheese - out of an empty hand ... that he was back in England after WWII in a medical facility ... that he'd gone back home - to a building that never existed - and he was ready to pack and go back there to stay ... and many other obvious waking dreams that he nevertheless thought were real.)

Anyway, it was very touch and go as to how he could be kept in the hospital, which we did day by day with persuasion and cajoling, b/c after all, he had the right to sign himself out and could insist on it. No matter what his physical and mental state.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 7:05 PM

DREAMTROVE


Rue

> Did you ever see the movie Jaws ?

Nope

> I wasn't trying to spark a 'who's got the biggest scar' contest, but if you want - ok, you win, hands down.

I thought I capped it with having my face literally ripped off. Though I have a friend who was in Iraq and Afgh for 5 tours this time, who had his head blown up twice, reconstructive surgery, once from a shotgun point blank, the other, an IED.

> I was just trying to make a point w/ ChrisIsAll that I have been on the 'wrong side' of the man.

Yah, I know, I didn't mean to belittle it. It's just that once you're marked "mental patient" it's like being a prisoner. You're treated like you have no rights, and the most annoying is that you seem to have no rights to regular medical treatment.

> As for the laws - I'd appreciate it if you could provide some information.

I don't know. I was fortunate my third time in to have access to a payphone. We weren't allowed change, but my mom snuck some in with donuts. She also snuck me some herbals to help counteract the drugs they were giving me. Both were against "policy." But I think this is a grey area, policy seems to be at odds with "law" but no one seems to be paying attention. My attempts to draw attention to the situation were no more successful than when I worked at a facility for downes syndrome residents that management basically treated like animals. You need to find someone in the system who is clean and cares in order to get anywhere, and I wasn't so lucky. I was luck to know my brother. If you have a specific legal question, I can forward it to my brother.

> My father (now deceased) fell and broke his hip due to Parkinson's. The anesthetics, pain pills, LDopa et al sent him into permanent hallucinations/
> delusions. Being off of all medication for weeks barely made a dent. But he kept threatening to sign himself out, broken hip and all.

Sounds like he was overmedicated. My general feeling is that anesthetics and pain killers should be avoided. L-Dopa is the natural treatment for parkisons, I find it works better with CoQ10, which appears to act as a transport of the L-Dopa. Chances are there was some reaction between the pain killers, I'm assuming some sort of opiate derivative, and the phenylalanine-choline chain. The whole series can end you with a pretty high level of norep, and as a result, adrenal overflow. Hallucinations are usually a sign of Dopa-overdose, which you shouldn't be able to create in a parkinson's patient. It's random speculation, but I would guess that the parkinsons was not advanced enough for the level of treatment, and they overdid it. When I had my car accident, in 1989, I was put on cocaine and morphine, which was serious overkill for the pain. I suspect that, since it took them two days to give me pain killers, I would have made it through without, but I can only speculate. There's a part of me that sees PN's MKULTRA in the idea of putting a teenager on Cocaine and Morphine at the same time for pain, and not derivatives, just straight, and IV. Like they were trying to create a customer. But that's just my paranoia speaking.

> (He also said that he took a taxi to visit a family member in Buffalo - who'd been living out of state for over 20 years and was still out of state
> - and found a 'disgusting ' party going on ... that he took his 'cart' - he couldn't remember the word wheelchair and English was not his first language
> - and saw they had a bank of phones in the basement and people madly answering them b/c the place was bankrupt and going to close down ...
> that he was eating 'delicious' cheese - out of an empty hand ... that he was back in England after WWII in a medical facility ...
> that he'd gone back home - to a building that never existed - and he was ready to pack and go back there to stay ...
> and many other obvious waking dreams that he nevertheless thought were real.)

Also he might have been experiencing some enterograde amnesia. A limit of active dopamine in the system can cause a lack of access to recent memory, and so people are left trying to reconcile their memory up to, say, 1974, with the situation they find themselves in.

> Anyway, it was very touch and go as to how he could be kept in the hospital, which we did day by day with persuasion and cajoling, b/c after all,
> he had the right to sign himself out and could insist on it. No matter what his physical and mental state.

My grandfather went through something similar, and then he signed himself out, and was found in New Mexico with a quarter million dollars in the trunk of his car, and no idea how or why. Then it was just called "dimentia." He ended up dying of hardening of the arteries while they tried to sort out what was mentally wrong with him.

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