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Opinions: Will Obama create the balanced, non-yes-man atmosphere in his administration that he says he's going for?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Friday, January 2, 2009 15:52
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Monday, December 29, 2008 11:58 AM

CHRISISALL


Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?


ThethreadforRiverloveisall

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Monday, December 29, 2008 11:59 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?


Yes, man...yes.

H

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Monday, December 29, 2008 12:06 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Yes, man...yes.


Thank you; now I totally understand your assessment of the future political landscape.


The Chrisisall

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Monday, December 29, 2008 12:09 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


I think people elected Obama for all the wrong reasons. He was elected because he was black. He was elected because he wasn't Bush. No one really cared what he stood for and who he is. No one even knew who he was and we still don't. He's an inexperienced senator with ties to questionable people who ran on idealistic rhetoric and promises he couldn't keep and probably never intended to. What is going to happen is the Clinton people, that Obama is putting in poor or has put in power, are going institute an extreme version of Clintonia, which no one is going to like. We elected a man for ridiculous reasons, instead of his much more qualified opponent, now we're just going to have to hope for the best.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, December 29, 2008 12:54 PM

KIRKULES


Obama is already showing that he is incapable of standing up to the political forces that cause Presidents to always do the wrong thing in a economic downturn. His stimulus package is just more money thrown from a helicopter to do something, because nobody knows what the right thing to do is. At least the Bush package is mostly loans that could potentially pay off someday.
Considering the points Finn just made I think Obama is doing about as good as anyone else would do in his situation. It seems likely that Obama will end up being the yes-man, going with whatever suggestion an advisor throws at him, because he definitely won't have the nads to say no to any suggestion that someone "smarter" than him says will fix the economy.
Borrowing and spending is what got us into this situation. I heard someone say the other day that the first thing to do when you want to get out of a hole is to stop digging.

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Monday, December 29, 2008 1:06 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?


ThethreadforRiverloveisall

Do you think Barry has sold out to the Righties? How much did Barry sell his soul for? I'd give him $5 for it.

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Monday, December 29, 2008 1:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think people elected Obama for all the wrong reasons. He was elected because he was black.

Wrong. No offense, but I think you're reading a lot of lefty-ness into a situation where peeps simply saw Palin as not only a poor potential VP, but a sign of poor-decision making on the part of an otherwise competent-seeming McCain.
Quote:

He was elected because he wasn't Bush.
On this I can agree.
Quote:

No one really cared what he stood for and who he is.
Again I feel you are over-simplifying due to partisan resentment; I knew where he stood on most issues, and I'm a dope. Smart peeps like yourself should have had no trouble with it.
Quote:

He's an inexperienced senator with ties to questionable people who ran on idealistic rhetoric and promises he couldn't keep and probably never intended to. What is going to happen is the Clinton people, that Obama is putting in poor or has put in power, are going institute an extreme version of Clintonia, which no one is going to like. We elected a man for ridiculous reasons, instead of his much more qualified opponent, now we're just going to have to hope for the best.


Thank you, little Miss Sunshine
I can hang with some part of that, but you just sound now like I did four years ago when I predicted martial law & nuking Iran before Bush left office- I have mellowed since then though, thankfully.


The optimistic Chrisisall

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Monday, December 29, 2008 1:13 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
It seems likely that Obama will end up being the yes-man, going with whatever suggestion an advisor throws at him, because he definitely won't have the nads to say no to any suggestion that someone "smarter" than him says will fix the economy.

I hope you're wrong there, but I certainly can't rule it out as a serious possibility. He is a politician after all.


The realistic Chrisisall

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Monday, December 29, 2008 1:26 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
Do you think Barry has sold out to the Righties?

Yes, he claimed to be Kal-El, and is in reality General Zod.


The sarcastic Chrisisall

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Monday, December 29, 2008 2:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I think people elected Obama for all the wrong reasons. He was elected because he was black. He was elected because he wasn't Bush.



Neither of those exactly sound like BAD reasons...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Monday, December 29, 2008 2:18 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


(I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I am tempted to feed Whozit, and I need the distraction. I also feel it's important to let you know that I have extremely sleep deprived myself, which will affect the quality of this post.)

If creating a "balanced, non-yes-man atmosphere in his administration" is going to be good for the country (and it sounds like a good thing), then I hope that it happens. Will it happen? Maybe. It sure seems to me like a strange mix of people, which I am inclined to think would facilitate non-yes-(wo)men.

All I know is that I have a sinking feeling. ::points to tagline:: And I voted for Obama*! I think it has something to do with his pick of Ken Salazar for Secretary of the Interior. Like most Democrats from Colorado, my impression of Salazar is that he is a solid moderate, and I was expecting the pendulum to swing more liberal for the next 4 years.

http://coloradoindependent.com/18141/nine-reasons-
not-to-trust-ken-salazar-as-secretary-of-the-interior

Then again, I'm freakishly liberal, at least when it comes to social issues. I will probably be disappointed in presidential politics for my entire life.

*Because the sinking feeling would have been much worse had the outcome been different. Because I think the next few years are going to be rocky no matter who's in charge, which feels like a duh thing to say, but there you go.

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Monday, December 29, 2008 2:37 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Opinions: Will Obama create the balanced, non-yes-man atmosphere in his administration that he says he's going for?
ThethreadforRiverloveisall



Okay, I'm going to start with: NO. He meant to, but he got steamrolled by Clintonistas.

Quote:

HERO

Yes, man...yes.



Obscure, but not without humor. Hero, as before, the years of my leave have granted you myrth. There are far worse fates that could befall a man

Quote:

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I think people elected Obama for all the wrong reasons. He was elected because he was black. He was elected because he wasn't Bush. No one really cared what he stood for and who he is. No one even knew who he was and we still don't. He's an inexperienced senator with ties to questionable people who ran on idealistic rhetoric and promises he couldn't keep and probably never intended to. What is going to happen is the Clinton people, that Obama is putting in poor or has put in power, are going institute an extreme version of Clintonia, which no one is going to like. We elected a man for ridiculous reasons, instead of his much more qualified opponent, now we're just going to have to hope for the best.



freudian type included, I actually completely agree with Finn.

Quote:

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero



Yah, I remember this tag, it was a good line. maybe you haven't changed. Sorry I called you a troll earlier.

Quote:

KIRKULES
Obama is already showing that he is incapable of standing up to the political forces that cause Presidents to always do the wrong thing in a economic downturn. His stimulus package is just more money thrown from a helicopter to do something, because nobody knows what the right thing to do is. At least the Bush package is mostly loans that could potentially pay off someday.
Considering the points Finn just made I think Obama is doing about as good as anyone else would do in his situation. It seems likely that Obama will end up being the yes-man, going with whatever suggestion an advisor throws at him, because he definitely won't have the nads to say no to any suggestion that someone "smarter" than him says will fix the economy.
Borrowing and spending is what got us into this situation. I heard someone say the other day that the first thing to do when you want to get out of a hole is to stop digging.



People are pretty on target. I thought McCain was right when he said that the Obama plan was almost more like the Hoover plan than any other.

Quote:

WHOZIT
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?

Do you think Barry has sold out to the Righties? How much did Barry sell his soul for? I'd give him $5 for it.



I think he meant sold out to the Clintonistas, and perhaps the NWO. Don't hope for the audacity of a right wing coup.

Quote:

CHRISISALL
Wrong. No offense, but I think you're reading a lot of lefty-ness into a situation where peeps simply saw Palin as not only a poor potential VP, but a sign of poor-decision making on the part of an otherwise competent-seeming McCain.



Gotta disagree. I wouldn've voted for Palin. What someone knows about the world is not really all that important. Sarah is just folks. It what nefarious globalist totalitarian elitists you have connections to that determine the damage you can and will do.

When McCain nominated Palin, I lauded it as America's Harrison Bergeron moment, and laughed. But this didn't cause McCain to lose. He was pre-ordained to lose, just as Obama was pre-ordained to win.

DT calling it in 04 "Obama/Clinton will defeat McCain/Graham in 4 years, if Clinton doesn't get the VP slot, she'll push for secretary of state" is all.

Quote:

FINN I think: No one really cared what he stood for and who he is.

Chris I think: Again I feel you are over-simplifying due to partisan resentment; I knew where he stood on most issues, and I'm a dope. Smart peeps like yourself should have had no trouble with it.



I know a lot of people who voted for Obama with no idea what he stood for, and not caring. I'm gonna have to go with FINN on this one.

Quote:

FINN
He's an inexperienced senator with ties to questionable people who ran on idealistic rhetoric and promises he couldn't keep and probably never intended to. What is going to happen is the Clinton people, that Obama is putting in poor or has put in power, are going institute an extreme version of Clintonia, which no one is going to like. We elected a man for ridiculous reasons, instead of his much more qualified opponent, now we're just going to have to hope for the best.

CHRIS Thank you, little Miss Sunshine
I can hang with some part of that, but you just sound now like I did four years ago when I predicted martial law & nuking Iran before Bush left office- I have mellowed since then though, thankfully.



I didn't think it was possible for chris to mellow. I thought he'd reached the quantum mellow state of one.

Quote:

CHRISISALL
"Chrisisall Chi: Master Of Adhomeynem- Fu."

Monday, December 29, 2008 - 13:13



Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
It seems likely that Obama will end up being the yes-man, going with whatever suggestion an advisor throws at him, because he definitely won't have the nads to say no to any suggestion that someone "smarter" than him says will fix the economy.

I hope you're wrong there, but I certainly can't rule it out as a serious possibility. He is a politician after all.


The realistic Chrisisall



Why am I even bothering to quote this? I agree with all of it.

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Monday, December 29, 2008 2:49 PM

DREAMTROVE


Kal-El is evil

Those are bad reasons. People should be elected for who they are, not what they are, or who they're not.

YINYANG

It's not that much of a mix. A lot of Clintonistas, not a lot of anything else. A couple neocons thrown in for good measure, but we won't know how it comes out until it's up and running. It's entirely possible, though unlikely given congresses let's roll over attitude that they won't pass these nominees.

Quote:

Then again, I'm freakishly liberal, at least when it comes to social issues. I will probably be disappointed in presidential politics for my entire life.


This is so commentworthy I should comment on it, but I won't, except to say; Don't worry, you're disappointment only comes from your expectations.

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Monday, December 29, 2008 2:54 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I would've voted for Palin.

*tries in vain to hide grave disappointment*
Quote:

What someone knows about the world is not really all that important. Sarah is just folks.
I draw your attention to the damage 'folks' like Bush have achieved...
Quote:

It's what nefarious globalist totalitarian elitists you have connections to that determine the damage you can and will do.
I don't disagree with this particular point.
Quote:



When McCain nominated Palin, I lauded it as America's Harrison Bergeron moment, and laughed. But this didn't cause McCain to lose. He was pre-ordained to lose, just as Obama was pre-ordained to win.


"'What happens in a man's life is already written. A man must move through life as his destiny wills.' -Caine
'Yes, yet each man is free to live as he chooses. Though they seem opposite, both are true. I do not understand it.' -Old Man


The quoting Chrisisall

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Monday, December 29, 2008 3:21 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
This is so commentworthy I should comment on it, but I won't, except to say; Don't worry, you're disappointment only comes from your expectations.



I know - our society (and the human world at large) is pretty fucked up, and I want it not to be fucked up. I'm constantly disappointed. Why I haven't descended into nihilism is probably because I keep my fingers in my ears and my eyes closed most of the time, and when I don't do either I cling to delusions and fantasies of a better world for everyone.

Back on topic: Focusing on the word "balanced," I'm changing my answer to no.

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Monday, December 29, 2008 5:30 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I would've voted for Palin.

*tries in vain to hide grave disappointment*



My deep inner troll revels at moments like this. Bush was not folks, he was a front for a machine, as was Obama. Palin was a completely random choice.

I think McCain panicked. The Obama team had such a good research crew that they would have been able to sink any logical choice he could take as a running mate, so he had to do something irrational. I knew this ahead of time, and suggested my own totally irrational choice: Barack Obama. I think that McCain/Obama would have the ultimate defense against Obama sinking McCain's running mate.

As it turned out, Palin could sink herself, but then again, she was set up. Then gave her no prep, and Katie Couric was working for Obama, and that was the only real interview she got. That's a total frame job. Sure she wasn't ready for it, but how many random people would be without notice. Consider, on the other hand, the amount of prep that her opposition: Joe Biden, was given. He had 18 years of running for president as prep, and honestly, he didn't fair much better. My favorite campaign moment was when Jon Stewart said "Joe, meet me at camera 3. First, the Beretta is a handgun, not a shotgun, and second, you appear to be threatening gun violence against your running mate." Please, no Sarah fights ;) Oh, the new baby was born, I think they named it "Tripp" which just edged out "Satelite Wreckage" which was their second choice.

Quote:


Quote:
It's what nefarious globalist totalitarian elitists you have connections to that determine the damage you can and will do.

I don't disagree with this particular point.



Quote:

When McCain nominated Palin, I lauded it as America's Harrison Bergeron moment, and laughed. But this didn't cause McCain to lose. He was pre-ordained to lose, just as Obama was pre-ordained to win.

"'What happens in a man's life is already written. A man must move through life as his destiny wills.' -Caine
'Yes, yet each man is free to live as he chooses. Though they seem opposite, both are true. I do not understand it.' -Old Man
The quoting Chrisisall



Kudos if you got the reference without a google

Chance doesn’t exist
But the path of life is not
totally so predestined

Kudos multiple exponentially.

I had to google the Kung Fu.

Quote:

YINYANG
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
This is so commentworthy I should comment on it, but I won't, except to say; Don't worry, you're disappointment only comes from your expectations.

I know - our society (and the human world at large) is pretty fucked up, and I want it not to be fucked up. I'm constantly disappointed. Why I haven't descended into nihilism is probably because I keep my fingers in my ears and my eyes closed most of the time, and when I don't do either I cling to delusions and fantasies of a better world for everyone.



Better is relative and subjective.

Quote:

Back on topic: Focusing on the word "balanced," I'm changing my answer to no.


Oh dear. It's going to take me a while to find out what the topic was :) I think it's buried somewhere around here. Ah, yes.
It's already slanting towards Clintonista-heavy, and globalist-heavy. I don't think either of these are liberal or conservative.

Clintonistas I take to be pretty much just gangsters, the equivalent of the bush crony crowd, just simple, out for what they can get, not afraid to bump people off if they get in their way. The globalists are all Alliance-y, and they're even scarier. There is, of course, some crossover.

I suspect that the social political perspective will be chosen in a cold and calculating manner, like the Bush agenda. Always throw your side a bone, but never a big enough one that they don't come back begging in a half an hour.

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Monday, December 29, 2008 6:04 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


This never happened.

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Monday, December 29, 2008 6:10 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think people elected Obama for all the wrong reasons. He was elected because he was black.

Wrong. No offense, but I think you're reading a lot of lefty-ness into a situation where peeps simply saw Palin as not only a poor potential VP, but a sign of poor-decision making on the part of an otherwise competent-seeming McCain.

He was elected because he was black and not Bush. Those were the only issues he had. He took that momentum and he ran with it. It would probably never have worked, except that the economy tanked, which people associated with Bush and therefore McCain, which gave Obama the extra thrust he needed.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, December 29, 2008 6:12 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Uh... constitutional law professor, Harvard graduate, good speech-ifying, and being the nominee of one of the major parties don't count? Because if all it took to be elected president was to be black and not Bush, Jesse Jackson should have been president from 1984 to 1992.

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Monday, December 29, 2008 6:16 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?


ThethreadforRiverloveisall



I think we should let the man actually be sworn in and have a few minutes as POTUS before we start calling him a failure, sell out or the anti-christ


I'mJustSayinIsAll

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Yes We Did!




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Monday, December 29, 2008 7:17 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
Uh... constitutional law professor, Harvard graduate, good speech-ifying, and being the nominee of one of the major parties don't count? Because if all it took to be elected president was to be black and not Bush, Jesse Jackson should have been president from 1984 to 1992.

Yeah, he’s a very good speaker, but all that means is that he was able to make good use of being black and not Bush.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, December 29, 2008 8:56 PM

DREAMTROVE


Obama is a constitutional law professor as well. I didn't know that. Given all of the other aspects of his life, I guess he *is* my brother. I suppose I should be able to predict his moves :)

We don't live in a democracy. It's a sham. The media annointed him in 2004, later, Time Magazine annointed him. The whole thing was a set up.

No conspiracy is needed. It's simple logistics. Anyone in the influence peddling business has no interest in an impotent govt. It was a forgone conclusion that Bush's unpopularity was costing congressional seats for the gop, it was a shoe in that the new president would have to be a democrat. No influence peddler in their right mind would actually support a republican.

Given that, it had to be someone who could win.

This meant from the selection you had to choose from:

Dodd, okay, but no popular support, and a financial scandal waiting in the wings.

Biden. Not a chance. He's a perennial candidate, they can't win

Edwards. He had a chance, but when he took on the globalists and special interests, he had to be removed.

Kucinnich? Please. The man didn't just see a UFO, he came from one. His wife is a hottie. I think that was his '04 platform: I need a hot young wife, look, I'm a revolutionary.

Mike Gravel? Again, please. The man is 79, and had a budget of zero.

Richardson. Shot himself in the foot with the anti-immigration stance. You can't be a latino and anti immigrant, then you lose everyone

Hillary Clinton? That's campaign suicide. Worse. Not only did she have an approval rating of 39%, but a serious run for presidency was going to mean re-opening the whitewater files, which was going to land her in jail, albeit briefly, but nonetheless, it would kill the campaign.

Barack Obama. He's the man. No skeletons, qualified, a team player, everything they want.

I don't even think that the Hillary camp wanted to win, I think they wanted to force Hillary for VP, but paranoia aside, she was too much of a liability even as VP. She could sink a ticket.

Down to the wire, nothing matters but the cheating. The influence peddlers have selected their "Plausible" candidate, which is anyone who can get within 5% of winning.

As it is, I suspect Barack won it hands down, but he couldn't have lost it, even if he had. I think Both Bushes and Clinton ran terrible campaigns that should have lost handily, but it didn't keep them out of the whitehouse. Did the other guys throw the race? Was it a set up, were losers put up as fall guys? Did third party spoilers make it happen? Who knows. Who cares. The power players have more than enough power to manipulate the democratic system any way they want. They chose the winners, and once chosen, they were destined to be elected.

For all I know Sarah Palin, as a pick, and her lack of preparation was all a set up for a loss. The media love in with Obama, who ran a fine campaign, but that only counts in a democracy. I'm even entertaining the idea that John McCain who is half democrat himself deliberately threw the race. But it didn't matter. For an influence peddler, a GOP president sitting over and overwhelmingly hostile senate and house would accomplish nothing, and they buy politicians to get things done for them, not to sit there.

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Monday, December 29, 2008 9:22 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
Uh... constitutional law professor, Harvard graduate, good speech-ifying, and being the nominee of one of the major parties don't count? Because if all it took to be elected president was to be black and not Bush, Jesse Jackson should have been president from 1984 to 1992.

Yeah, he’s a very good speaker, but all that means is that he was able to make good use of being black and not Bush.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero





Wow, the power of being not Bush


glad to hear you finally admit how god awful Bush was

Bush is the bizarro Chuck Norris

Bill Clinton could come back and blow the entire defence budget on whores and not do as bad as Bush

If Bush was German, Tom Cruise would try to kill him

Obama could do press conferences in his underwear and seem more professional than Bush




But, to answer the original question

No, Obama is doomed.



Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, December 29, 2008 9:22 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
Uh... constitutional law professor, Harvard graduate, good speech-ifying, and being the nominee of one of the major parties don't count? Because if all it took to be elected president was to be black and not Bush, Jesse Jackson should have been president from 1984 to 1992.

Yeah, he’s a very good speaker, but all that means is that he was able to make good use of being black and not Bush.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero





Wow, the power of being not Bush


glad to hear you finally admit how god awful Bush was

Bush is the bizarro Chuck Norris

Bill Clinton could come back and blow the entire defence budget on whores and not do as bad as Bush

If Bush was German, Tom Cruise would try to kill him

Obama could do press conferences in his underwear and seem more professional than Bush




But, to answer the original question

No, Obama is doomed.



Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, December 29, 2008 10:23 PM

RIVERDANCER


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
He was elected because he was black. He was elected because he wasn't Bush. No one really cared what he stood for and who he is.


As a vote in his particular column, I have to call bullshit on this.
I don't give a good gorramn that the man is black, except that maybe now there's one less reason for black people to say the man is trying to keep them down.
I cared very much what he stood for and I carefully watched his interviews, read his interviews, and read his books. I looked at his history, studying constitutional law at Harvard, being President of the Harvard Law Review (funny enough, he was the only black president of that, too, but I don't think not being Bush gave him any leverage there) I happen to think he's very smart, and he certainly seems motivated. Do I know what's to come? No, of course I don't. We won't really have an idea how things are going to play out until a good year from now. He surrounded himself with a good team on the campaign, as evidenced by his victory. He bounced ideas off others and let himself be questioned, and then made the final decision. I think that's smart and I think it's likely what he'll continue to do.

Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
she was set up. Then gave her no prep, and Katie Couric was working for Obama, and that was the only real interview she got. That's a total frame job. Sure she wasn't ready for it, but how many random people would be without notice.


Yes. How many random people could name a single newspaper or magazine they read. You really have to prep for that shit.

Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
when he took on the globalists and special interests, he had to be removed.


Excuse me, am I the only one who ever saw anything Obama ever said? Like, ever? Taking on the special interests? He slagged them off at every opportunity, are you kidding me? Part of what I liked about him so much, actually. He didn't take a dime from those s and for that reason alone I would respect him.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


What does it say about Bush that all one has to do to be elected President is be "not Bush"?

And how'd that work out for McCain? Or is he Bush 2.1?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 3:30 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wrong. No offense, but I think you're reading a lot of lefty-ness into a situation where peeps simply saw Palin as not only a poor potential VP, but a sign of poor-decision making on the part of an otherwise competent-seeming McCain.


Sarah Palin caused Obama to win? No...clearly people voted for Obama because they really wanted Joe Biden as Vice President. It was a single issue vote...Biden.

Actually there were four main reasons Obama won. First, he was a great candidate. Second, he got no scrutiny of by the press, not just in the fall, but throughout the primary campaigns too. Third, the economic meltdown. Fourth, John McCain was 8 years past his prime...meaning he was John McCain, not Alan Alda (West Wing Reference).

H

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 3:57 AM

RIVERLOVE


I think Joe The Plumber said it best...that McCain was a total flake, and Palin was the absolute real deal. She wanted to campaign on Conservative principles, but McCain and his inner circle of retards had him all over the board on issues, even going on The View & Letterman too & putting Palin into the lap of Couric & Gibson. Brilliant, if yer a Dem strategist!...Great fucking idea! Dick Morris ( smart, saavy political guy) said on his website that the single biggest reason McCain lost the election was when he pulled his "flying back to Washington" stunt. He suspends the campaign, goes back to DC ('cause he's a maverick), and then votes with Bush! The stupid fuck! If he had opposed the original bailout "loudly", and become a "voice of the people" he would have won the election. Morris also states that without Palin on the ticket, McCain would have lost by a lot more than the few percentages he did. She made the race competitive. The Press has built themselves a nice trap. For 2 years they closed their eyes & ears about Obama, but now he's the only one left to look at. They will turn on him, they can't survive with harmony.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 4:36 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?



I think I'd feel better if less of Pres-elect Obama's staff, transition team, and Cabinet was made up of ex-Clinton folk.

Not sure how the middle-class tax cut and trillion dollar stimulus spending is gonna work, unless 'middle-class' gets re-defined quite a bit.

Question 59 in the application for a job in his administration also makes me wonder.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/11/13/obamaquestionnaire.pdf.
pdf




"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:16 AM

DREAMTROVE


Rivers,

To Dancer, I say: Katie is such a NWO operative, she was out to get Palin, who was set up. Also, you can edit anyone to look like a total moron if you have enough tape. The MSM is horridly transparent when it adds in "ums" and "uhs" into quotes, that just an obvious way of trying to manipulate things.

RiverLove,

Amen to all of that. My sister is a solid lefty from Alaska and was a Palin supporter until the Zombies got to her. But I don't think McCain's stupidity cost him the election, I think that it was unwinnable. It's not a democracy, the whole set up is jut to make it look plausible, after that, it's a cheatocracy. Whoever the machine says won, won. If that doesn't work, try the supreme court. The Court could have kept McCain out at any point by ruling that Panama was not US soil. Anyone can disagree with that ruling, but they had the power to rule that. And, if it served the purpose of the special interests, they would have.

Myself, I'm much happier out of power. There's a lot more room for maneuvering. I think Palin '12. It would lose, but winning isn't the point. We need a solid base of support for real conservative ideas, not a shmuck in the white house who it willing to say he's a conservative and toss us a bone every once in a while.

To me, the liberals have just done the same dumb mistake conservatives did in 2000, and the mistake the third party crowd has been trying to make for years: Get a man in the door at any cost. That's just dumb. Someone who doesn't truly stand for what you believe in, who will cater to all the special interests? That's just going to make you the punching bag of the nation. There's a lot to be said for losing. And I, personally, am okay with how things turned out. If the Paulsons and Brezinskis of this world are setting policy, then I don't want to take the blame for it. I do actually feel a little sorry for Obama, not for the mess he inherited, but by what disasters will be tied to his name.

As my brother, a big Obama supporter, put it "Anyone who becomes president has already made one serious lapse in judgment: They ran from president."

We will have a lot of time to regroup here.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:37 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
What does it say about Bush that all one has to do to be elected President is be "not Bush"?

It doesn’t say anything about Bush. It says something about the media.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 6:35 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
He was elected because he was black. He was elected because he wasn't Bush. No one really cared what he stood for and who he is.


As a vote in his particular column, I have to call bullshit on this.



Me too. I so voted for his white half.



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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 6:41 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
But I don't think McCain's stupidity cost him the election, I think that it was unwinnable.


I agree with that. After the 2006 election & with Bush continuing to lose popularity, I had given up any hope of a Republican win in 2008. With McCain as candidate, the odds got worse. Damn him for injecting Palin into the fray which ended up making it look close for a while.

Quote:

It's not a democracy, the whole set up is jut to make it look plausible, after that, it's a cheatocracy. Whoever the machine says won, won. If that doesn't work, try the supreme court.

I can see you have no faith in our country. That's very sad. I think you're very mistaken in your assessments here. Every state has their own election board, and for Federal elections its all tied together by the FEC, then confirmed by the Electoral College. The U.S. Supreme Court ONLY got involved in the 2000 election because the FLA COURT stuck their nose into something that they had no jurisdiction over, which is state election tally results. Your posts indicate you're not happy living in America. There are many other places you can go.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:18 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It doesn’t say anything about Bush. It says something about the media.




So let me get this straight - you're saying that the media selected Bush the last two times around, and that just goes to prove he was indeed NOT the best candidate out there, but just the one the media decided to deify - because he was "southern" and NOT Clinton.


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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:43 AM

DREAMTROVE


Riverlove

I think you are still confusing the two: Government and Country. You know what the popular support for the Government of Saudi Arabia is in their own country? 1%. That's what happens when you have a govt. that tramples the rights of the people and doesn't give a damn. Here, we're nowhere near that, but we're headed in that direction.

Take our Firefly backdrop. No one in Firefly ever curses the verse, or even the inner planets, they curse the alliance and the Blue Sun corporation.

One does not equal another. George W. Bush is not the United States of America, nor is he Texas. He's a random guy who is a front for a lot of other random guys who claim to be ours.

Watch the primary process, and decent conservative compete. I liked the nutjob, myself, Ron Paul, I also liked Mike Huckabee. I don't hate John McCain, but do you remember the media trying to shove Rudy Giuliani down our throats? What was that all about? So, I'll admit, the cheatocracy is not perfected yet, but it's no level playing field.

Even if it was, democracy is not a great form of govt. It's manipulative at best, and the optimal end goal is for 52% of the people to marginalize the views of the other 48%. That's not how I would design a fair and balanced govt, in either direction.

I never indicated any dislike of America. The govt. is a fraud. It's a usurper. I could prove this, if you care to take the time. The FEC is a puppet, and I've actually worked in the electoral system. It's a total sham. There's a mass media that filters what 90% of the people here, making them biased, and if that fails, there are ways to gerrymander and manipulate, and then there are countless points along the way where people can simply lie.

The biggest cheat that Bush pulled in 2000 was bringing Steve Forbes into the race. Forbes wasn't a free agent, he was working for Cheney at the time, and so was Bush. It was Forbes job to basically say whatever McCain said to steal the primary. I don't think Bush stole the general election, I think that Clinton was horridly unpopular and Gore was as doomed as McCain was in 2008. But I do think he manipulated the primary.

Not convinced? How about Perot in 1992? and 1996? What was that all about. I worked for the Perot people, and know the whole story. It was about manipulating the election. It's how an unpopular Bill Clinton, boosted from 2% to 39% by round the clock efforts of the media to sell him as a product, to waltz into the whitehouse with a smaller % of the vote than Mike Dukakis, and towing sex scandals and a big drug-related money laundering scandal.

Here's a figure for you: 2/3 elections in US history have been decided by the third part splitter.

Take the Election of Wilson in 1912. Wilson walking in with 33% of the vote, and was arguably the worst disaster ever as president. How? Because Wilsons people, with I kid you not, the strong support of the KKK, organized and funded the progressive party to split Taft's vote. When it became obvious that their chosen Progressive candidate was not going to chip off enough votes from Taft to make him lose, the Progressives, under direction from the Wilson people, switched gears and nominated Teddy Roosevelt. This made the cheat plausible. Still, they had to fudge a few figures in a few states and get that popular vote, but the resounding electoral victory, in an almost dead even three way split, came from a situation where regionally, Roosevelt and Taft were getting there votes from the same areas.

This is our democracy, and how it works, and I'm not shooting in the dark here. I know the system very very well. I've worked in it for years, and have colleages and friends who have worked many more years in it. The system isn't just corrupt, it's designed that way.

I have nothing against America. I have serious issues with the elite core of manipulators in washington who call themselves our govt.

This is why I like being out of power. I don't care to organize to win. I care to organize to protect America from its number one threat: This monster that has grown up in washington DC.

I think you'll find on both sides of the aisle that this is the majority feeling on the board.

Always assume that all advertising is false advertising. If a product really did what it said "the quiet easy start lawn mower" well, we would all know, and it wouldn't need to advertise it. Check across the spectrum of our whole society, and you'll find this is true: Advertising is the are of lying to the public.

Now consider how much the govt. advertises the need to support you govt, which it calls country, but they don't mean go help your neighbor, or protect our resources or environment, they mean support your govt, give it money, and go fight for its buddies overseas. Then count they number of times that they say "we must be united" and then pull up the specter of some imaginary or exaggerated threat. And then they sell us on the idea.

That's not country, it's government, and the people who make the real decisions in this country are the cabinet and their advisors, completely unelected officials, that the figureheads our manipulative system puts in place are there to obey unquestioningly. If you check the background of some of the key presidential advisors, and more than a couple have already been found guilty of perjury, obstructing justice, and destroying evidence to protect them from what they're really guilty of: Treason. And yet they still serve in govt.

Your nation and mine has been hijacked by a cabal of globalist elitists who represent international oil cartels, drug cartels, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Communist China, everything but America. Taking it back requires a lot more than winning an election.

If I recall, all of this was stated pretty loud and clear in the subtext, and sometimes the text, of Firefly.

Sorry for the rant, I get annoyed with the love it or leave it attitude. I own this govt. nothing. It set up shop here, and spends 3 trillion a year with no tangible results, sends people, friends of mine, to die for its own elitist agenda, and it has nothing to do with this nation, its people, its values, or even its industry. Its a fraud. [/rant]

ps. if you're so ready to give up that you're going come down to "support the gangsters with the biggest guns" or "flea in terror" then there's already something wrong with the picture.

The country can be saved. The government is a hopeless disaster. If you're not convinced, look at everything the federal govt. has ever done, starting with its first major action as a democratic state: The indian removal act.

My suggestion. We ignore the existance of the govt. and organize a new America in its place. Keep everyone's income taxes to zero, and fly under the radar for as long as we can.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:49 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
So let me get this straight - you're saying that the media selected Bush the last two times around, and that just goes to prove he was indeed NOT the best candidate out there, but just the one the media decided to deify - because he was "southern" and NOT Clinton.

What? If you want to understand what I’m saying, the first step is to read what I said. The media campaigned for Obama, because they didn't like Bush and they liked the novelty of a Black president. People were disillusioned by a prolonged conflict in Iraq and surprised by a sudden drop in the economy, all of which they attributed to Bush. Some of it was Bush, some of it was not, but nonetheless, the media made certain it was all blamed on Bush and by extension the Republicans and McCain.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:38 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Riverlove

I think you are still confusing the two: Government and Country. You know what the popular support for the Government of Saudi Arabia is in their own country? 1%. That's what happens when you have a govt. that tramples the rights of the people and doesn't give a damn. Here, we're nowhere near that, but we're headed in that direction.

Take our Firefly backdrop. No one in Firefly ever curses the verse, or even the inner planets, they curse the alliance and the Blue Sun corporation.

One does not equal another. George W. Bush is not the United States of America, nor is he Texas. He's a random guy who is a front for a lot of other random guys who claim to be ours.

Watch the primary process, and decent conservative compete. I liked the nutjob, myself, Ron Paul, I also liked Mike Huckabee. I don't hate John McCain, but do you remember the media trying to shove Rudy Giuliani down our throats? What was that all about? So, I'll admit, the cheatocracy is not perfected yet, but it's no level playing field.

Even if it was, democracy is not a great form of govt. It's manipulative at best, and the optimal end goal is for 52% of the people to marginalize the views of the other 48%. That's not how I would design a fair and balanced govt, in either direction.

I never indicated any dislike of America. The govt. is a fraud. It's a usurper. I could prove this, if you care to take the time. The FEC is a puppet, and I've actually worked in the electoral system. It's a total sham. There's a mass media that filters what 90% of the people here, making them biased, and if that fails, there are ways to gerrymander and manipulate, and then there are countless points along the way where people can simply lie.

The biggest cheat that Bush pulled in 2000 was bringing Steve Forbes into the race. Forbes wasn't a free agent, he was working for Cheney at the time, and so was Bush. It was Forbes job to basically say whatever McCain said to steal the primary. I don't think Bush stole the general election, I think that Clinton was horridly unpopular and Gore was as doomed as McCain was in 2008. But I do think he manipulated the primary.

Not convinced? How about Perot in 1992? and 1996? What was that all about. I worked for the Perot people, and know the whole story. It was about manipulating the election. It's how an unpopular Bill Clinton, boosted from 2% to 39% by round the clock efforts of the media to sell him as a product, to waltz into the whitehouse with a smaller % of the vote than Mike Dukakis, and towing sex scandals and a big drug-related money laundering scandal.

Here's a figure for you: 2/3 elections in US history have been decided by the third part splitter.

Take the Election of Wilson in 1912. Wilson walking in with 33% of the vote, and was arguably the worst disaster ever as president. How? Because Wilsons people, with I kid you not, the strong support of the KKK, organized and funded the progressive party to split Taft's vote. When it became obvious that their chosen Progressive candidate was not going to chip off enough votes from Taft to make him lose, the Progressives, under direction from the Wilson people, switched gears and nominated Teddy Roosevelt. This made the cheat plausible. Still, they had to fudge a few figures in a few states and get that popular vote, but the resounding electoral victory, in an almost dead even three way split, came from a situation where regionally, Roosevelt and Taft were getting there votes from the same areas.

This is our democracy, and how it works, and I'm not shooting in the dark here. I know the system very very well. I've worked in it for years, and have colleages and friends who have worked many more years in it. The system isn't just corrupt, it's designed that way.

I have nothing against America. I have serious issues with the elite core of manipulators in washington who call themselves our govt.

This is why I like being out of power. I don't care to organize to win. I care to organize to protect America from its number one threat: This monster that has grown up in washington DC.

I think you'll find on both sides of the aisle that this is the majority feeling on the board.

Always assume that all advertising is false advertising. If a product really did what it said "the quiet easy start lawn mower" well, we would all know, and it wouldn't need to advertise it. Check across the spectrum of our whole society, and you'll find this is true: Advertising is the are of lying to the public.

Now consider how much the govt. advertises the need to support you govt, which it calls country, but they don't mean go help your neighbor, or protect our resources or environment, they mean support your govt, give it money, and go fight for its buddies overseas. Then count they number of times that they say "we must be united" and then pull up the specter of some imaginary or exaggerated threat. And then they sell us on the idea.

That's not country, it's government, and the people who make the real decisions in this country are the cabinet and their advisors, completely unelected officials, that the figureheads our manipulative system puts in place are there to obey unquestioningly. If you check the background of some of the key presidential advisors, and more than a couple have already been found guilty of perjury, obstructing justice, and destroying evidence to protect them from what they're really guilty of: Treason. And yet they still serve in govt.

Your nation and mine has been hijacked by a cabal of globalist elitists who represent international oil cartels, drug cartels, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Communist China, everything but America. Taking it back requires a lot more than winning an election.

If I recall, all of this was stated pretty loud and clear in the subtext, and sometimes the text, of Firefly.

Sorry for the rant, I get annoyed with the love it or leave it attitude. I own this govt. nothing. It set up shop here, and spends 3 trillion a year with no tangible results, sends people, friends of mine, to die for its own elitist agenda, and it has nothing to do with this nation, its people, its values, or even its industry. Its a fraud. [/rant]

ps. if you're so ready to give up that you're going come down to "support the gangsters with the biggest guns" or "flea in terror" then there's already something wrong with the picture.

The country can be saved. The government is a hopeless disaster. If you're not convinced, look at everything the federal govt. has ever done, starting with its first major action as a democratic state: The indian removal act.

My suggestion. We ignore the existance of the govt. and organize a new America in its place. Keep everyone's income taxes to zero, and fly under the radar for as long as we can.


You certainly have some very radical revisionist opinions of the history of this country. I guess when you say that you love America, you must be referring to the land and the water, because you seem to have a very jaded and hateful view of the people, history, and institutions that have defined this country for 230 years. That's ok too, but with all that "stuff" floating around in your head, one might think you are generally miserable in life.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:46 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Some of it was Bush, some of it was not, but nonetheless, the media made certain it was all blamed on Bush and by extension the Republicans and McCain.



Why would a lefty Clintonista like myself even entertain the possibility of voting for McCain then, if I was so swayed by the media masters? It was only after hearing Palin speak a few times that I was easily able to rule out McCain entirely. Finn, when folks voted for Bush, you didn't seem to think they were mostly media-brainwashed monkeys, but now you do? Or was Bush pushed into our brains the same way?


The confused Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:48 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
I guess when you say that you love America, you must be referring to the land and the water

LOLROTF!!!!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:27 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Or was Bush pushed into our brains the same way?


Hard to believe, but the "Media" of 2008 is totally different than in 2000. The media then was more balanced and non-ideological, and generally could qualify as legitimate NEWS organizations. Now, no way. Somehow over the last 8 years the former news media has just all morphed into tabloid journalism. Can't really tell the Nightly News from Entertainment Tonite. Throw in the internet & its' blogs and political agenda sites, and you are left with a simmering stew of schlock & shock; a cornucopia of chaos and confusion. It's an end result of the incredible polarization of politics and cultural beliefs in America. Why REPORT the news when you simply can SHAPE the news, or just blatantly lie to suit your beliefs.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:35 AM

CHRISISALL


I watch news from the BBC, & listen to NPR.
And I read the Enquirer at Stop N Shop.


The enlightened Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:54 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Some of it was Bush, some of it was not, but nonetheless, the media made certain it was all blamed on Bush and by extension the Republicans and McCain.



Why would a lefty Clintonista like myself even entertain the possibility of voting for McCain then, if I was so swayed by the media masters? It was only after hearing Palin speak a few times that I was easily able to rule out McCain entirely. Finn, when folks voted for Bush, you didn't seem to think they were mostly media-brainwashed monkeys, but now you do? Or was Bush pushed into our brains the same way?

First of all the media leans to the Left. They aren’t going to go out of their way for a Conservative candidate, everything else being equal. Secondly, the media being composed of a large majority of Liberals and owing to their natural tendency for the novelty were infatuated with with a black presidential candidate from the start. And thirdly, Bush was not a nobody. He was governor of Texas, son of a former president. His politics were believed to be well known, which gave people real policy driven reasons for voting for him. Obama never defined himself. He remains to this day a mystery, using his exceptional oratory skills and the media as cover. Only a few occasions, such as Joe the Blumber event, did he drop his guard.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:58 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
son of a former president.

What does this even mean? So what?
Do I detect an American version of respect for royalty here?


The son of a computer programmer Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:58 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I watch news from the BBC, & listen to NPR.
And I read the Enquirer at Stop N Shop.


That explains a lot. I stick with the more traditional forms of information: Bazooka Joe bubble gum wrappers, and fortune cookie notes from Madame Wang's Take Out.

" When Ship says I'm vicious, he means intelligent." Human Operator #31

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:00 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
son of a former president.

What does this even mean? So what?
Do I detect an American version of respect for royalty here?

No. And if you don’t know what it means, you probably should find a easier topic to debate.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:03 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
I stick with the more traditional forms of information: Bazooka Joe bubble gum wrappers, and fortune cookie notes from Madame Wang's Take Out.


Yes. that does explain a lot.


The Luthor-like Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:06 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

And thirdly, Bush was not a nobody. He was governor of Texas, son of a former president. His politics were believed to be well known...


Oh horseshit. You obviously knew nothing about him, or you'd know that Governor of Texas is worth about zero-point-shit in the real world. His "politics" weren't known at all. What WAS known - at least here in Texas - is that he was a drunk and an idiot, and couldn't name a single world leader at the time.

He was exactly what the Neo-Cons wanted - an utterly empty vessel, devoid of any real beliefs at all, which they could then fill up with all their tripe, and which he'd then regurgitate as if he'd believed it all along.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:08 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

...you probably should find a easier topic to debate.



Like grammar? Would that be "a easier topic"?

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:09 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
No. And if you don’t know what it means, you probably should find a easier topic to debate.



Ahh, the "If you don't know, then I'm not gonna tell you" tac- haven't heard that one since college...

So any son or daughter of a President is a "somebody" regardless of anything else they do or don't do in life?




The target-hardening Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:11 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Quote:

And thirdly, Bush was not a nobody. He was governor of Texas, son of a former president. His politics were believed to be well known...


Oh horseshit. You obviously knew nothing about him, or you'd know that Governor of Texas is worth about zero-point-shit in the real world. His "politics" weren't known at all. What WAS known - at least here in Texas - is that he was a drunk and an idiot, and couldn't name a single world leader at the time.

I knew quite a bit about him, just from him being governor of Texas. Just because you spend your time with your head up your ass, doesn’t mean everyone else does. Although it was probably unlikely that I would have voted for Gore either way, I did look into Bush’s governorship in 2000 and even after 9/ll there were policies that Bush has remained true to that were known as early as his gubernatorial campaign.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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