Why I Hate Capitalism by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why I Hate Capitalism

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, November 21, 2015 23:25
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 11778
PAGE 6 of 6

Saturday, February 21, 2009 4:18 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The median family income in the USA is about $50,000. As a rough measure of the top centile. Bill gates is worth about $50 billion. That's a million times difference. Even if the average income of the top centile is only one-tenth of Bill Gates, that's still about 100,000 times difference.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:15 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Or is that a mis-read of your reactions?

It is of mine.

All societies impose rules, it's how and why that becomes the sticky point.

Again, I make a big issue between social rules, enforced by the rest of the community disliking you, maybe refusing to trade with you - which are in essence maybe common sense stuff for the most part...

And legal rules, enforced by the barrel of a gun, as often as not used to exploit one group for anothers benefit, or to force one group to follow the morality of another.

Cases in point - Blue Laws, Drug Prohibitions, explain to me how this is not using the law the force folks to follow a morality which they may not agree with ?

Alternatively, there's places where voluntary cooperation and a set of mutually agreed upon rules are necessary for something to work, the most common example (and usually strawmanned to death) is the american highway system.

People don't comply with the rules cause of the threat of force, hell, everybody and their cousin knows most "traffic enforcement" is nothing more than revenue generation, and often as not even the damn cops doin it admit that.

People do so because if you do not, IT JUST WON'T WORK - and everyone knows it, look at how pissed off folks get at someone who refuses to shift right because they're travelling much slower than the flow of traffic, yes ?

The problem with this argument is twofold.

Firstoff, everyone seems bent on taking one position or the other to it's furthest extreme, either to create a strawman position or out of sophistry - but the truth is gonna lie somewhere in a more moderate solution, and every time that is denied by folk who see anything but the status quo as an affront, it makes arguing the point a waste of time.

Secondly, and this is the more important part, there seems to be this concept that without a gun to their head, folks are incapable or unwilling to obey rules which exist SOLEY for the benefit of the community as a whole, which make sense and have a valid reason for being in place.

I reject that, categorically - because while you do have the occasional jerkweed who is like that, and mind you, in our CURRENT society, happens to be the most "successful" if you trim off all the bullshit, these people are not the norm, and without the ability to manipulate a convoluted and nonsensical legal system to protect themselves from the "just desserts" of their actions, while preventing it from addressing their wrongs, are unlikely to have that much of an impact when they cannot manipulate the rules because there is no force beyond conscience and the respect of the community behind them.

They'll wind up living in a cave outside the city, alone, with no one willing to associate or trade with em, instead of on top of the heap like they are here.

Given a choice, most folk will cooperate with each other, especially when it makes good sense to do so - to say otherwise is to reject the obvious premise of how civilization started in the first place, and as idiotic as "because they hate our freedoms" as an excuse.

People do NOT need a gun pointed at their head to cooperate with each other, cause barring some valid reason not to do so, they'll do it of their own free will - it's when you start using violence or the threat of such to force them to cooperate with folk they have *very valid reasons* to NOT desire to cooperate or associate with, that things turn ugly.

I hope that makes it clear, as I get kinda tired of folk forgetting that point six seconds after I make it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_aid_(politics) <-add manually

And imma apply this exact version of it here, just to make a point.

Any further examples taken to a ridiculous extreme for the purpose of strawmanning or sophistry, and y'all will be talkin to yourselves about it, cause voluntary association is just that.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:33 AM

SERGEANTX

Well said Frem, thanks.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
... Any further examples taken to a ridiculous extreme for the purpose of strawmanning or sophistry, and y'all will be talkin to yourselves about it, cause voluntary association is just that.

LOL, indeed.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 21, 2009 9:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The median family income in the USA is about $50,000. As a rough measure of the top centile. Bill gates is worth about $50 billion.

Income and net worth are different things, and shouldn't be directly compared.

Googling "bill gates income" (try it) I come up with figures for salary and dividends from Microsoft stock rounding up to about $180,000,000 (this was 2007, so probably less now, what with the declining stock market). Dividing that by your median family income of $50,000, Mr. Gates makes 3600 times the median income. A pretty big difference, but hardly a million times. Should I now accuse you of lying?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 21, 2009 9:40 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
There's income distribution and per capita GDP. Not the same. If you have a very even distribution of nothing, it's still... nothing.

U.S. has the 8th highest per capita GDP in the world. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capit
a
Your point is?

Quote:
Both Rue and I are willing to live off our own dime. What we DON'T want is the WEALTHY living off our dime, too.

Explain please, how the wealthy live off your dime more in the U.S. than in, say, Sweden.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 21, 2009 9:56 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
People don't comply with the rules cause of the threat of force, hell, everybody and their cousin knows most "traffic enforcement" is nothing more than revenue generation, and often as not even the damn cops doin it admit that.

People do so because if you do not, IT JUST WON'T WORK - and everyone knows it, look at how pissed off folks get at someone who refuses to shift right because they're travelling much slower than the flow of traffic, yes ?

In which case why do people break traffic regulations?

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Secondly, and this is the more important part, there seems to be this concept that without a gun to their head, folks are incapable or unwilling to obey rules which exist SOLEY for the benefit of the community as a whole, which make sense and have a valid reason for being in place.

Seems to me characterising law or rules as "a gun to the head" would be every bit as much a strawman as anything else.

Beyond that, people do break these laws, even with "the gun to their head". I see no logic in the tacit assertion that people would stop doing it, if we stopped punishing them for doing it.

Quote:
They'll wind up living in a cave outside the city, alone, with no one willing to associate or trade with em, instead of on top of the heap like they are here.

Which is all that different to sending them to prison because?

Seems to me you're actually talking about something no less brutal than the current system, and probably more so. With the added caveat that rather than an objective arbitrator making these decisions, you've put them in the hands of the mob.

Quote:
People do NOT need a gun pointed at their head to cooperate with each other

I don't see how forcing people who don't play by the unwritten rules to live in caves is any less of a "gun pointed at their heads".

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
U.S. has the 8th highest per capita GDP in the world.
www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita
Your point is?

That it's VERY unevenly distributed. And so for the vast majority of people it doesn't matter HOW high the "average" GDP is because they never see it!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer, OK, net worth to net worth- since the net worth of most families is negative, that makes my argument even stronger.

Sarg, Frem... I will read you links. Can we continue this in "What do I owe..." since this thread is incredibly long???

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 21, 2009 3:04 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, OK, net worth to net worth- since the net worth of most families is negative, that makes my argument even stronger.

Not so.

Per CNN, in 2004 (the last year for which complete figures are available) only 11% of households had negative net worth. Even with the current downturn, it's not likely most households have negative net worth. If you have later figures, I'd be glad to see them.

Median net worth in 2004, per CNN, was $100,894.
Per the Wall Street Journal, the average net worth for the 1st percentile in 2004 was $6 million. So the net worth of the top 1% is around 60 times the median net worth. Still not getting that million, are we?

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2007/02/01/rich-o-meter-20/

http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/10/pf/millionaire/net_worth_stackup/

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 8:45 PM

ELVISCHRIST

CEO Sentenced to 28 Years in Prison for Selling Peanut Butter Containing Salmonella: Killing Numerous People

"This week’s sentencing of former CEO Stewart Parnell of Peanut Corporation of America (PCA) marks the first time since Bernie Madoff’s sentencing that a member of the 1% elite has been held accountable for a felony. In this case, the felony involves multiple deaths and injuries due to a defective product.

Stewart Parnell, his brother Michael, and former quality control manager Mary Wilkerson were convicted by a federal jury on 71 counts of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and knowingly distributing tainted food products. The charges stem from an outbreak of salmonella in January of 2009. Within the space of four months, there were reports of 714 illnesses and 9 deaths across the nation. However, figures from the Centers for Disease Control indicate that the actual figure may be much higher, as many cases go unreported."

http://ringoffireradio.com/2015/09/ceo-sentenced-to-28-years-in-prison
-for-selling-peanut-butter-known-to-contain-salmonella-killing-numerous-peopl/

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 9:47 PM

WISHIMAY

Nice of those damn capitalists to put one of their own away, huh? There's a 50/50 chance he would just be given a different job China...
This is what happened after the Chinese drywall fiasco.

"Nelson's speech comes amid a new lawsuit from homeowners who say bad Chinese drywall wrecked their homes. It also follows a U.S. district judge's order two weeks ago that held Taishan Gypsum Co. Ltd. in contempt of court for ignoring court proceedings over damage caused by the company's drywall.

The Chinese government has had continued and repeated failure to participate in the legal process of this country to help the homeowners who were severely impacted by this problem with Chinese drywall,” Nelson told federal lawmakers. “Taishan thumbed its nose at everybody.”

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20140731/ARTICLE/140739930

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 12:47 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr

Theze resent events coud be taken az a sine that thingz are improving - Uncle Skam actually working for the sitizenz.

GM basicly got away with poizoning the world with led for 70 yirz. The food industry got away with poizoning us with hydrojenated oil for 60 yirz. Azbestos, arsenic, mercury, etc. all got a pass in the old daze, now they are banned or very restricted.

Or not. Coud be that they just want to distract us from sumthing else they are killing us with now.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 8:08 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

The Pope gave a speech in Bolivia: “Once capital becomes an idol and guides people’s decisions, once greed for money presides over the entire socioeconomic system, it ruins society, it condemns and enslaves men and women.”

Why would the Pope say that in Bolivia? What happened there to deserve that speech?

While it’s almost completely unknown in Europe and the U.S., an estimated 8 million indigenous Bolivians and enslaved Africans died mining silver for Spain from the Bolivian mountain Cerro Rico — or as it’s known in Bolivia, “The Mountain That Eats Men.” Potosí, the city that grew up around Cerro Rico, is now extraordinarily polluted, and the mountain is still being mined, often by children. On the conquerors’ side of the ledger, Potosí was the source of tens of thousands of tons of silver, leading to the Spanish phrase vale un potosi — i.e., worth a fortune.

Some also believe the U.S. dollar sign originated from the design of coins minted at Potosi.

Now you know why the Pope said what he said about capitalism. https://theintercept.com/2015/09/23/one-thing-pope-say-congress-truly-
stun/

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 25, 2015 7:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

In reflection, this was not one of my better threads. There is a lot more to hate about capitalism than I mentioned.

But I see Pope Francis and I are on the same page, at least on some things. (Not so much on religion and immigration, tho!) and I heard parts of his speech to Congress ... it was a damning rebuke. Gentle, but damning. I was told that "the Boehner" refused to "honor" Pope Francis with his presence at lunch ... but not before Pope Francis has already decided to lunch with the homeless instead. Boehner ... what a tool!

I like Pope Francis. The last Pope that I liked was John XXIII. The rest of them between John XXIII and now were ... ah, how shall I put this? ... assholes. Not at all Christlike. My ethics came from John XXIII. I may not be a believer anymore, but I still follow the New Testament in many ways, and so do a lot of people.

This may be hard for some people (KPO, THUGR, G, GEZZER, RAPPY etc) to believe, but your politics is a natural outgrowth of your ethics And what you say about politics says a lot about your ethics.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 21, 2015 11:25 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Ain't what you spend, so much as how.

-F

As usual, Sanders’s foreign-policy proposals weren't as detailed and deeply felt as his domestic ones. Sanders's national-security platform has five essential parts:

1. Don’t recklessly overthrow foreign regimes or enter any war that doesn’t directly impact American interests.

2. Get the Gulf states to contribute their fair share to the fight against ISIS. If Qatar can afford to spend $200 billion on some soccer tournament, Sanders reasoned, they can afford to send more soldiers and airplanes to the battlefield. Similarly, he noted that Saudi Arabia has the world’s third largest defense budget, but is prioritizing its war against the Houthi rebels in Yemen over defeating ISIS.

3. Use American diplomatic might to build a global coalition against terrorism.

4. More airstrikes.

5. Implement democratic socialist economic reforms.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/11/sanders-no-reason-to-be-a
fraid-of-socialists.html#

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE