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Obama's E.O. on lifting Embryonic Stem Cell ban is driving AURaptor crazy!

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 13:36
SHORT URL:
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Monday, March 9, 2009 1:48 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Quote:


Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.



Are you? I've seen you get humiliated several times, yet I've yet to see you ever issue an apology over it. It's okay, I'll wait.



The few times I've made errors, I've owned up to them. But never have I been so far off as citizen here. He asked for evidence, I gave it. He asked for a link , I gave it. On the very core of the issue, and not some trivial side issue of grammar or context, citizen has stepped into it, up to his shoulders. And refuses to acknowledge the error of his ways.
/B]



Nice dodge. The QUESTION I asked you was whether you were man enough to APOLOGIZE. Clearly, you aren't.

Don't tell me that my ship is coming in...
Time's running out the door you're running in.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 2:22 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


And that differs greatly when your 'droids come out and take YOUR side.... how ?


Because it never happens because I don't have any.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 2:24 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

The few times I've made errors, I've owned up to them. But never have I been so far off as citizen here. He asked for evidence, I gave it. He asked for a link , I gave it. On the very core of the issue, and not some trivial side issue of grammar or context, citizen has stepped into it, up to his shoulders. And refuses to acknowledge the error of his ways.



But you're the one who was proven wrong. I asked for evidence of human trials, you still haven't provided that. And yet you refuse to apologise or acknowledge how wrong you are, prefering to demand people apologise to you, and dragging your impotent sock puppets in, in a desperate and fruitless attempt to lend credibility to your way off ravings.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 9:59 AM

DREAMTROVE


Rap,

Just one question, are you a moron or a whore?
Clearly, stem cell research requires a lot of R&D money, just like the missile systems you love. You love them because they protect you from Muhammed al Insano with bombs strapped to his nuts.

Now, let's look statistically. Stem Cells are a line of defense against a heart disease, diabetes, cancer and now even aids. These are much more likely to kill you than Muhammed al Insano.

So,

1. Either you're a total whore for big pharma to help make money while letting people like yourself and the rest of us die.
or
2. You're just a f^&king moron.

Sorry, just the level truth. Don't worry, I'm a drive by, I won't be back to argue.

As you were

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Monday, March 9, 2009 7:26 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:


You can tell 'Raps lost when his idiot sock puppet comes out to declare him the winner!



Such adroit and thoughtful counterpoint - NOT!

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Monday, March 9, 2009 10:34 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Such adroit and thoughtful counterpoint - NOT!


And yet is still more adroit and thoughtful than anything you post as Raps unthinking sock puppet...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 11:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Steady, resolute and ever on topic.


Like NEVER.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 11:28 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rap,

Just one question, are you a moron or a whore?
Clearly, stem cell research requires a lot of R&D money, just like the missile systems you love. You love them because they protect you from Muhammed al Insano with bombs strapped to his nuts.

Now, let's look statistically. Stem Cells are a line of defense against a heart disease, diabetes, cancer and now even aids. These are much more likely to kill you than Muhammed al Insano.

So,

1. Either you're a total whore for big pharma to help make money while letting people like yourself and the rest of us die.
or
2. You're just a f^&king moron.

Sorry, just the level truth. Don't worry, I'm a drive by, I won't be back to argue.

As you were




I suspect you'll be back. You falsely presume it's one or t'other. Point of fact, dear Dreamy, is that all the benefits you seek to find in ESC are being found in ASC. And it's not an issue of simply how much $$ is thrown at a problem that determines its success. I'm sorry, it just isn't. Some paths are simply better than others, and the one we're funding now w/ ASC is yielding far more beneficial treatments and cures. And if Big Pharm DID see $$ in ESC, they'd go after the ESC research on their own. They sure as hell wouldn't have sat idly by and watched the rest of the world leave us in the dust when it came to ESC studies. But that's pretty much exactly what they did, isn't it ? W in no way banned ESC research, nor did he ban STATES from using their $$ either.

So, to complete your thought where you were too short sighted to ad in the first place, add another option. 3

3. I'm practical , where it makes sense to be, in regards to science.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 2:38 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Steady, resolute and ever on topic.


Like NEVER.


That's a good description of you and your toddler sock puppets contribution.

Any luck finding that scientific human study yet? No, didn't think so; it's alright I know you're not man enough to admit when you're wrong, just insult me and declare yourself the winner again in the hopes that someone outside of your toddler-circle jerk will believe you (they don't).



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 4:56 AM

BYTEMITE


On the embryonic stem cell thing:

People have been dumb enough to try to inject unspecialized embryonic stem cells into people and hope they'll magically go where they're needed and turn into the right cell types? That reminds me of the turn of LAST century, when people were drinking Uranium tonic.

In embryos, approximate location and function of cells are determined very early on (like when there are 8 cells, total) by first a protein gradient and then MASSIVE, massive amounts of hormones, controls, switching gene expression on and off...

I mean, hell, I can believe tumors would result if quacks are using THOSE kinds of treatments. That's just laziness and magic wand waving. For you to expect any positive result, you have to specialize the stem cell.

The point of embryonic stem cells is that they're more versatile than adult stem cells, that eventually they can turn into ANY cell type, whereas adult stem cells are more limited. To turn an adult stem cell into a specific type of cell, the cell has to be derived from a particular lineage of cell.

Also, unfortunate as it is, there's not many sources for harvesting living adult stem cells (skin cells modified to be pluripotent have their own limitations and problems, so the other types still have to be harvested). There are many embryos created just for research that will never be implanted in any womb or grow to be a living, functioning person. So there is a non-abortive source for embryonic stem cells, and a potential to grow the stock of embryonic stem cells far greater than the amount of adult stem cell lines we have available, provided it is not illegal to do so.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:23 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rap,

I see you didn't address the facts I posted.

BAD DOG !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:39 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


For anyone else with an ounce of brain, I challenge you to address the following facts:

Embryonic stem cell therapy hasn't failed because it simply hasn't been tried in any scientific way.

Adult stem cell therapy has likewise never succeeded b/c the cells never do replace the dead or diseased tissue.

This is what happens with adult stem cells: suppose you are using skin stem cells to try and repair the heart. What they will do is FUSE to existing heart muscle cells to create a hybrid skin\ heart muscle cell. But they will never BECOME a heart muscle cell. Should the heart muscle cell that's part of the hybrid cell die, you will lose heart muscle function - ie have a heart attack.

THAT is the failing of adult stem cells - they never DO become the cells you need. And THAT is the promise of embryonic stem cells - that they WILL become the cells you need.

***************************************************************

I hope that is simple enough for your comprehension.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:41 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Rap,

I see you didn't address the facts I posted.

BAD DOG !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Sometimes it helps if you whack him on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper, or rub his nose in it.

(Kidding - I'd never treat a dog that way.)

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:06 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by CellarDoor:
Do all political threads around here boil down to people insulting and swearing at each other within a few posts? Are you guys being serious or just recreating barroom brawls...? Just trying to figure out the atmosphere I guess, still being a newcomer.



Well, the Dick Cheney thing is new.

Anyway, if you're interested in discussion, just jump right in and ignore the bickering. If you're interested in lurking, I'd advise against doing too much of it, to preserve any optimism about the nature of humanity.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Personally, I like to mix snark and facts. I have found there are VERY few people willing to discuss facts even though I include topical ones. And sometimes, it's just fun to point and laugh.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:27 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


S'wenyways, for those of you who missed this post:

For anyone else with an ounce of brain, I challenge you to address the following facts:

Embryonic stem cell therapy hasn't failed because it simply hasn't been tried in any scientific way.

Adult stem cell therapy has likewise never succeeded b/c the cells never do replace the dead or diseased tissue.

This is what happens with adult stem cells: suppose you are using skin stem cells to try and repair the heart. What they will do is FUSE to existing heart muscle cells to create a hybrid skin\ heart muscle cell. But they will never BECOME a heart muscle cell. Should the heart muscle cell that's part of the hybrid cell die, you will lose heart muscle function - ie have a heart attack.

THAT is the failing of adult stem cells - they never DO become the cells you need. And THAT is the promise of embryonic stem cells - that they WILL become the cells you need.

***************************************************************

I hope that is simple enough for your comprehension.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:33 AM

WASHNWEAR


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I don't want it, it's got Rush Limbaughs semen on it from last time you too had a meeting.

Again, you prove yourself a liar who can't back up word one of his science and freedom hating idiocy.



* While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others.*



Uh...bringing that up at this point is a little like closing the barn door after the horses have eaten your children...



It was like that when we got here!

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:52 AM

WASHNWEAR


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
your information is a lie, citizen. Tumors have been found w/ embryonic stem cells.

* http://www.usnews.com/blogs/heart-to-heart/2009/03/04/why-embryonic-st
em-cells-are-obsolete.html


Quote:



Why Embryonic Stem Cells Are Obsolete
March 04, 2009 11:52 AM ET | Bernadine Healy, M.D. | Permanent Link | Print




Well, according to Wiki (always feel just a trifle uneasy whenever I type that), she was good enough for Dubya...

Quote:

She has been serving the administration of George W. Bush as an advisor on bio-terrorism on the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology since 2001.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadine_Healy

'Course, that's the most damning thing I found on her in 5 minutes or less. For all I know she was the lone voice of enlightenment in that medieval wilderness...



It was like that when we got here!

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 7:18 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


For those who will not click on Wiki or do any extra reading (and there are many):

Bernadine Healy

"(Red Cross) Announced a forced resignation in October 2001 and retired on December 31, 2001, amid controversy over the handling of funds for victims of the September 11, 2001 attacks."
I'd give her a question mark on policy integrity and ethics as the authority handling large amounts of money.


"TASSC Healy was a member of the Advisory board of The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition, an organization later shown to have been founded by PR firm APCO and funded by the Philip Morris corporation to criticise scientific research inimical to the interests of tobacco companies and other corporations ..."
This indicates questionable scientific and medical ethics as well.


"lifelong repubican ..."
Also very active in promotimg the repubican agenda.


"Why Embryonic Stem Cells Are Obsolete Bernadine Healy, M.D"
v
"... the authors conclude that their findings "do not imply that the research in stem cell therapeutics should be abandoned.""
I'd say she is not well-versed in the science of ANY kind of stem-cell research, either.


***************************************************************

Yep, she's quite the 'ethical', 'unbiased' and 'knowledgeable' authority you want to be quoting. Aside from the unfortunate fact that she wrote an opinion piece based on the one and only ad-hoc unapproved embryonic stem cell 'treatment'.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:16 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I can certainly agree that Bernadine Healy was one of the worst picks by Bush, along with Leon Panetta. Grossly dismayed when he made those picks, not surprised by the massive errors made by those 2 since. She belongs as far away from anything science as can be, I expect the same quality of drivel from her as I do from Janet Napolitano. Healy's record at NIH was abominable.

AuRap - can you summarize if there has been progress made regarding WHY the difference between success rates between Embryonic and Adult? I hadn't heard if there was a cause found, or if it was being looked for.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


rue

Can you explain to me why embryonic stem cell research is so vital, when we can obtain pluripotent cell supplies from adult stem cells ?

Also, what does the issue of Bernadine Healy have to do w/ anything? Your attempt to equate her forced resignation to the embryonic stem cell research is so far beyond the realm of honesty, I have to ask, what are you smoking ?

People sent in donations to help the victims of the 9/11 attacks. Instead of directing all these monies towards the cause for which they were sent, Ms Healy instead took it upon herself to spread the donations around, so as to fund other areas in which Red Cross offers aid.

I was, like many Americans, furious to hear that the $$ I sent in to Red Cross might not be used for the 9/11 cause, but NONE of this has a damn thing to do w/ anything to do w/ stem cell research and her being a " life long republican ". If anything, her actions could be viewed as being Liberal, in the use of other people's $$ to be used in areas which we had no say. I can understand her intent, but it's false advertising to ask for $$ because of the 9/11 attacks, and then use much of the $$ you raised from that call in areas totally unrelated to the 9/11 attacks.

All you've done is to loosely connect 'life long republican', 'big tobacco', and ' misappropriation of funds' in a thinly veiled attempt to besmirch her character.

Quote:


Cardiologist Bernadine Healy is a physician, educator, and health administrator who was the first woman to head the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Known for her outspoken, innovative policymaking, Dr. Healy has been particularly effective in addressing medical policy and research pertaining to women.
After completing her internship and residency at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Dr. Healy spent two years at the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute at the National Institutes of Health before returning to Hopkins in 1976, where she became a professor of medicine. She earned a reputation as a skilled cardiovascular researcher specializing in the pathology of heart attacks. She also became the school's first woman to serve as assistant dean for postdoctoral programs and faculty development.

When Dr. Healy made her debut as director of the National Institutes of Health, she joked, "Things are so bad, some have said, they couldn't even get a man to be NIH director." At that time, the National Institutes of Health was an agency beset with problems. It was thought to be in decline and scientists were leaving in record numbers. The agency had also been accused of sexism and racism in hiring and promotion. The NIH has been without a director for almost two years, and Dr. Healy's appointment was viewed especially positively by many because of her experience in dealing with science policy issues.

While she was at the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Healy undertook a number of initiatives. She established an award program to keep talented scientists working within the grant system during funding lapses, oversaw the development of a major intramural genetics laboratory and an Institute for Nursing Research, and launched the $625 million Women's Health Initiative (a long-term health study involving 150,000 women). In the interest of better understanding the different ways disease and treatment affect men and women, she also established a policy whereby the National Institutes of Health would fund only those clinical trials that included both men and women when the condition being studied affected both genders.

As president of the American Heart Association from 1998 to 1999, she initiated pioneering research into women's heart disease and demonstrated that medical progress depends on the public and medical community's perception that there is a problem to be solved. Healy set out to convince both the lay and medical sectors that heart disease is also a woman's disease, "not a man's disease in disguise."



Taking only a brief moment to look over this woman's professional career should be enough to see that she knows medicine. Her 'crime' of wanting to "spread the wealth" around for the Red Cross, while admirable in it's intent, was , imo, not the best way of going about things. Regardless, to try to besmirch her professional name simply because it suits your personal agenda to vilify Bush and his reasonable take on embryonic stem cells is , quite frankly, juvenile.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:


AuRap - can you summarize if there has been progress made regarding WHY the difference between success rates between Embryonic and Adult? I hadn't heard if there was a cause found, or if it was being looked for.



Tumors form from treatments when embryonic stem cells are used. I've not had time to see whether the cause has been isolated or not. Regardless, they've not been able to keep the tumors from growing. No such problem arises when adult stem cells are used.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:27 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Tumors form from treatments when embryonic stem cells are used. I've not had time to see whether the cause has been isolated or not. Regardless, they've not been able to keep the tumors from growing. No such problem arises when adult stem cells are used.


Have you received Embryonic Stem Cell treatments? Do they cause you to talk to yourself?

Still waiting for proof to back up your assertion that there have been any human trials of ESCs (and no, injecting random cells into people and hoping for the best doesn't count).



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:07 AM

RIPWASH


Let's bring this into relevance of the whole meaning of this site before we forget :o)

What would Malcom Reynolds think about ESCR? GOVERNMENT funded/mandated ESCR using taxpayer dollars?

I think the answer is pretty clear, but in the context of the series and movie . . . what are YOUR thoughts and keep them civil.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Just because research is being allowed doesn't mean it's "mandated". It doesn't even necessarily mean it'll be funded. If you think that's the case, you obviously have NO IDEA how research grants work! There is no "Office of the Overseer of Research" saying...Mwhahahaha! You WILL do this embryonic stem cell research! What happens... in real life... is that research proposals are submitted to a panel of scientists who are also researching that field. Those proposals could be about ANYTHING in that field of, say, research medicine: The Study of Growth Regulation in ESC or Mutiply Resistant Gram-Negative Bacteria Response to UV Sterilization or The Use of Humira in Autoimmune Inner Ear Diseases

The proposals are evaluated against each other, and against the available pot of money. Only one out of ever ten proposals is ever funded.


---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:48 AM

RIPWASH


Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.

Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.

What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:50 AM

BYTEMITE


AURaptor: Rue did ecplain why adult cells modified to be pluripotent have limitations.

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:


This is what happens with adult stem cells: suppose you are using skin stem cells to try and repair the heart. What they will do is FUSE to existing heart muscle cells to create a hybrid skin\ heart muscle cell. But they will never BECOME a heart muscle cell. Should the heart muscle cell that's part of the hybrid cell die, you will lose heart muscle function - ie have a heart attack.

THAT is the failing of adult stem cells - they never DO become the cells you need. And THAT is the promise of embryonic stem cells - that they WILL become the cells you need.




The reason they have these limitations, is that though they are pluripotent, and CAN become different subtypes of cells, the cells are already specialized to some degree, and are limited by their lineage.

Although I agree that misuse of stem cells, adult or embryonic, could cause tumors. I mean, that just seems like common sense, look at the tumors people get when they absorbed a fraternal twin in the womb. Let's make sure people know what they're doing.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Prolly the same as he would to anything else the Alliance wanted to do: Stay away from it. That would include cancer research too.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:17 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.

Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.

What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas



Since the embryos the stem cells are harvested from are not viable embryos in the first place, I think Mal would have zero problem with it. Think of it as a salvage operation - there's no viable "person" in that embryo; it's NEVER going to grow into a human being, so why not try to salvage some good out of it.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:29 AM

RIPWASH


Now don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say whether the embryos were viable or not. It can be seen that the embryos have to come from somewhere and how they are made "not viable" is a point of contention also. You can say they're "made" in a lab, but still, once a brain stem is formed, there is LIFE there. Human life. Don't tell me that you can't tell what it is at that stage of development. That is not the issue. It is human tissue, actual and whole. Just not fully formed. If that's the case (and I'm not saying that it is, mind you - just a hypothesis). . . creating life, just to destroy/kill it? I think Mal would have a BIG problem with that.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:49 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Sorry, but from a laymans point of view that really sounds ridiculous, what's next, decrying the "abuse" of bacterial cultures cause it's potential "life" ?

I don't buy that philosophy, no.

Especially since I happen to be someone who deals with the wreckage left over when folk use that philosophy to defend a "potential child" up till the moment it pops out, whereupon they abandon any further interest whatsoever - and it gets ugly after that, never think that it don't.

Also, ponder that if we ever do get to cloning whole organs, fully realized human lives in progress would be saved - and in all honesty I would say the value of a realized life in progress with other people attached to and potentially dependant on it carries a greater moral weight than a mere potential.

That doesn't mean I do NOT see the potential for immorality or abuse - hell DARPA is already playing with genetics looking for a method of creating supersoldiers, despite how shortsightedly stupid, morally bankrupt and abysmally foolish from a historical perspective that is, but we all knew that'd happen anyway.

I do in fact have my own reservations both logical and spiritual regarding "playing god"
(much like the big one I have with nuclear weapons, as I consider them a blasphemous sacrilege)
But despite those reservations I do not feel the entire BRANCH of research is immoral or without potential benefits to all mankind.

In fact it is those very benefits that big pharma and the modern medical care industry fears terribly, since if not chopped up, walled off, nibbled to death by legal challenges and locked up by patents to keep them out of the hands of the people - they will spell the end of treating symptoms for profit while allowing the patient to suffer longer as a "treatment" methodology.

A cured patient is no longer a source of income, and that's the LAST thing big pharma and the medical care system wants.

Which is WHY private money isn't going to do the job here, and despite my ire at our entire theft by force taxation system, I'd rather the money go into something that might actually BENEFIT humanity rather than into invasions, wars, and big shiny toys for the miltary-industrial complex to kill more of us with.

Sure, it makes me uneasy and uncomfortable because it screws with my own internal preconceptions about what life IS - but I refuse to let those preconceptions do my thinking for me, cause when it comes to questioning things, that's ALWAYS where one should start to do so.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Now don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say whether the embryos were viable or not. It can be seen that the embryos have to come from somewhere and how they are made "not viable" is a point of contention also. You can say they're "made" in a lab, but still, once a brain stem is formed, there is LIFE there. Human life. Don't tell me that you can't tell what it is at that stage of development. That is not the issue. It is human tissue, actual and whole. Just not fully formed. If that's the case (and I'm not saying that it is, mind you - just a hypothesis). . . creating life, just to destroy/kill it? I think Mal would have a BIG problem with that.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas



Well, I'm certainly not trying to put words in your mouth. The way you worded your response, it sounded like you were implying that scientists were going around ripping fetuses out of pregnant women and harvesting them like organ donors, and I was pointing out that such is simply not the case.

From my understanding of it, these embryos are generally obtained from fertility clinics, not from abortion clinics, and the fertility specialists have deemed them to not to be viable for implantation. Seems that out of every ten eggs fertilized, only about one is viable for implantation - the others, while becoming embryos, aren't ever going to develop into anything like a normal human being.

So in essence, "creating life just to destroy/kill it" is already being done. Now if you'd like to discuss doing away with fertility clinics and outlawing them, that's a whole different discussion...

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:17 AM

RIPWASH


Very true, Kwicko, if that is, indeed, the case (Ya see? Us conservatives CAN have a calm discussion!! And even concede to well thought-out, unabusive posts). And no, I would not condone the closing of fertility clinics, but insist (as a private citizen) on them coming up with a better way of doing it. If they're going to create a human life, make sure the odds of it being viable are pretty darn good. That's my line of thinking, anyway. Maybe not realistic, but still . . .

A human life is a human life, no matter how you look at it. You take a human egg and a human sperm, your going to form a human. Not a cow or a frog. It doesn't matter what stage of development its in. Again, not a very popular train of thought, but it's the train I ride

And again, you're right. This is a different conversation entirely.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Wash, I know your heart's in the right place, but you have to realize that the mere fertilization of an egg with a sperm doesn't give it a great chance of becoming a viable, functioning human under ANY circumstances. In the natural world, something like one out of three pregnancies ends badly, for baby and/or mother, and that's when they're really TRYING to do everything right.



Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:34 AM

RIPWASH


Agreed.

Not conceeding, mind you just agreeing.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Agreed.

Not conceeding, mind you just agreeing.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas



You, I like.

We *can* have a reasoned discussion about this. I'd *really* like to see some restrictions placed on embryonic stem cell research - not restrictions against doing such research, but rather on where they can get the ebryonic materials they're using. IF they're coming from fertility clinics, IF they're deemed by all involved to me unsuitable or non-viable for implantation, etc., THEN and ONLY THEN can you use those embryos for research - and only with signed consent of the clinic, the doctors, and most importantly, the egg and sperm donors.

We CAN find ways to do this morally. Hell, if we can "morally" execute prisoners and "morally" torture suspects, surely we can find a way to morally do embryonic stem cell research.



Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

once a brain stem is formed
Lizards have brain stems. Does that make them human?Agree with Kwicko. There are restrictions that can be placed on the source. But for some, even that wouldn't be enough.

But my understanding is that ESC are derived from blastocysts... which is well before any specific differentiation begins. which IS the point of ESC, innit? To get cells BEFORE they've differentiated?
Quote:

BLASTOCYST

The zygot continues to divide, creating an inner group of cells with an outer shell. This stage is called a blastocyst. The inner group of cells will become the embryo, while the outer group of cells will become the membranes that nourish and protect it. (Placenta, chord, and sac)



---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:06 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Now don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say whether the embryos were viable or not. It can be seen that the embryos have to come from somewhere and how they are made "not viable" is a point of contention also. You can say they're "made" in a lab, but still, once a brain stem is formed, there is LIFE there. Human life. Don't tell me that you can't tell what it is at that stage of development. That is not the issue. It is human tissue, actual and whole. Just not fully formed. If that's the case (and I'm not saying that it is, mind you - just a hypothesis). . . creating life, just to destroy/kill it? I think Mal would have a BIG problem with that.


They come from IVF treatments. The ones that couldn't be used, so would go straight in the bin. Potentially life saving research, chuck in the bin, what's the most moral choice?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:07 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

once a brain stem is formed
Lizards have brain stems. Does that make them human?



Note the difference I'm imposing here by stating HUMAN embryos. Not Lizard embryos.

I'll be completely and brutally honest and say I don't know much about the research, how the cells are harvested or at what stage they're harvested. But IF the more viable source for stem cell research is from adults (and I'm not saying that it is, it's only what I've heard), then that should be pursued more vigilantly than via embryos.

Two sides to every story, folks. We can discuss without getting mean-spirited and I thank Kwicko for being nice to the newebie. Compared to some of what I've seen in this section of the forums . . . wow. It can get fierce. I came to this site because I heard that Browncoats get along regardless of political views. Quite honestly . . . this section blows that theory to kingdom come

I keep thinking of Mal talking to River on the bridge of Serenity . . asking that if she's not human to shoot him now . . . gun clicks . . . "Or . . . we can talk more."

Don't know why I think of that when it comes to this section but oh well.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:11 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

once a brain stem is formed
Lizards have brain stems. Does that make them human?Agree with Kwicko. There are restrictions that can be placed on the source. But for some, even that wouldn't be enough.

But my understanding is that ESC are derived from blastocysts... which is well before any specific differentiation begins. which IS the point of ESC, innit? To get cells BEFORE they've differentiated?
Quote:

BLASTOCYST

The zygot continues to divide, creating an inner group of cells with an outer shell. This stage is called a blastocyst. The inner group of cells will become the embryo, while the outer group of cells will become the membranes that nourish and protect it. (Placenta, chord, and sac)



---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.



Thanks for the clarification, Signy.

I think that an awful lot of what gets tossed around in this debate is spurious information. People try to break it into 5-second sound bites that will stick in the minds of their listeners. Fact is, the vast majority of these materials are NOT coming from abortions or from abortion clinics. I'd say NONE are coming from those sources, but I can't say that with 100% certainty. What I can say is that MOST aren't coming from these sources.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:25 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'd say NONE are coming from those sources, but I can't say that with 100% certainty. What I can say is that MOST aren't coming from these sources.


They all come from unwanted embryos from IVF treatments. That's why I find the morality argument nonsense, it's the argument FOR destroying embryos, not against it.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Two sides to every story, folks. We can discuss without getting mean-spirited and I thank Kwicko for being nice to the newebie. Compared to some of what I've seen in this section of the forums . . . wow. It can get fierce. I came to this site because I heard that Browncoats get along regardless of political views. Quite honestly . . . this section blows that theory to kingdom come




Rip (and I can't help but call you that, since your screen name shows up in all caps, and I read it as "RipWash" rather than "RIPWash"), I'm being civil to you because you've never given me reason not to be. You've been nothing but civil here, and that's to be commended. I make a concerted effort to be nice, until it's time to NOT be nice. If you see me blow up on someone, you can bet your bottom dollar that we have history between us, and there's a very good reason I'm going off on them. :)

Some of the things I've been called here would make Caligula blush.

That's not saying I'm better than that, because I give as good as I get, and I have a tendency to respond in kind.

As for us all getting along because we're Browncoats... well, yes and no. We get along about as well as Mal and Jayne. Or Mal and Simon. Or Mal and Inara. Or Mal and... well, ANYONE! We tend to be a bit independent AND a bit pig-headed about it, so we definitely tend to escalate when our differences start showing!

Look around the other areas of the site, though, and you'll find a much different picture. You'll see AuRaptor and I actually being pleasant to each other now and again - something you're probably NEVER going to see in this section. But that's only because we disagree on almost everything political, but still love Firefly.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 9:21 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"But IF the more viable source for stem cell research is from adults (and I'm not saying that it is, it's only what I've heard), then that should be pursued more vigilantly than via embryos."

MMMmmm ... then what you heard was wrong.

At this point there are three classes of stem cells:
1) embryonic, which have the potential to be anything
2) adult stem cells which can divide but do not turn into other cells and will never be what you need
3) embryonized adult stem cells which have had genes added to them (genetically modified) so that they look like they might be similar to embryonic stem cells, they are of unknown quality, potential, or limitations

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 9:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Agreed, Respond-in-Kind is the general policy here for a lotta folks, self included.

One reason some folk can't seem to get a reasonable discussion goin on round here is cause they never really brought one in the first place.

Oh, and for the record, I really, really, seriously don't have the competence to argue this issue, beyond stating my position on it and leaving at that - I tend to avoid trying to argue things I dunno nothin about as a general rule, so imma sit back and watch this one from here on out.

-F

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 9:44 AM

RIPWASH


Neither pro nor con, but interesting nonetheless

http://www.stemcellresearchfacts.com/pros_cons.html

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:26 AM

RIPWASH


More interesting info:

http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics3.asp

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:57 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.

Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.

What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?



Rip, you're confusing the issue still, going back to this incomplete proposition.

To make the comparable proposal, you would start like this, to include the most offensive source of ESCR, that of Partial Birth Abortions (aka Rotation Extraction Evacuation):
The Alliance was going to confiscate (tax money) funds to be used to pay for humans to be fully gestated, then born, then killed so stem cells could be 'harvested' from them and sold.

Start with that accurate beginning, and then see where Mal & Co will side.

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 1:13 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Original lies posted by DobsonAlliancefan:
Rip, you're confusing the issue still, going back to this incomplete proposition.

To make the comparable proposal, you would start like this, to include the most offensive source of ESCR, that of Partial Birth Abortions (aka Rotation Extraction Evacuation):
The Alliance was going to confiscate (tax money) funds to be used to pay for humans to be fully gestated, then born, then killed so stem cells could be 'harvested' from them and sold.

Start with that accurate beginning, and then see where Mal & Co will side.


I imagine that they'd side against the fascists spreading lies and hate to further their agenda of a mad grab for power.

I.e. They'd side against you, AURaptor.




More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 1:52 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.

Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.

What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?



Rip, you're confusing the issue still, going back to this incomplete proposition.

To make the comparable proposal, you would start like this, to include the most offensive source of ESCR, that of Partial Birth Abortions (aka Rotation Extraction Evacuation):
The Alliance was going to confiscate (tax money) funds to be used to pay for humans to be fully gestated, then born, then killed so stem cells could be 'harvested' from them and sold.

Start with that accurate beginning, and then see where Mal & Co will side.



Where to start... So much go se in such a small post...

Cites, please? Can you find valid documentation of this EVER happening in this country (growing a fetus to full term, birthing it, then killing it and harvesting its stem cells)? You seem to think it's common, but at its height, PBA accounted for less than 0.6% of abortions performed. So growing fetuses to term solely for the purpose of killing them and harvesting their stem cells, even if it were EVER done, sure as hell wasn't ever going to be any kind of main source of ESCs.

Are you basing this on anything more valid than the voices in your head? Or are you just casting about, trying to invent the most offensive scenario you can think of, and then trying to throw that mud at the wall to see if it sticks. Or did Rush tell you this? You have to remember, Rush is an ENTERTAINER, not a reporter.

Wasn't partial-birth abortion outlawed? If so, how would anyone come by cells obtained in such a way, and if they COULD get them, wouldn't that be a felony?



Mike

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 1:59 AM

CITIZEN


Indeed. Also, since ESCs are by definition ones that come from embryos, wouldn't that make cells harvested from babies more like adult stem cells, since they'd be already differentiated? So isn't DobsonAllianceFan here really arguing for the abolition of ADULT stem cell research, because they come from people already born...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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