REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Three sides to an argument

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, April 16, 2009 15:50
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Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FWIW, I was invited to a tea party, by a left-wing group. Too bad I had to work that day.

I see three sides to this argument:

1) Status quo. Continue on the course BUSH started, and bail out the big banks, insurances, and corporations. Go even further into debt.

2) Get pissed off about taxes and "big government", stop ALL stimulous spending. Let banks, insurances, businesses, and improvident people all fail.

3) Require that government spending be redirected to people not corporations. Stop shoveling money to the rich.

I think what a lot of people realize is that progressives are just as pissed off with Obama as conservatives. I wonder how much common ground there is....


---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:29 AM

SERGEANTX


2

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Thanks for your vote!

Anyone else care to vote?

Add?

Subtract?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:34 AM

CITIZEN


4

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, very funny!!!!!!!!!!!!

*taps foot, smiles*


You got a lot of 'splainin' to do!


---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:39 AM

RIPWASH


What I wuold like to know (and perhaps someone here has done the math) is how much money (through TARP 1 and 2, the Porkulous bill, AIG, Fannie & Freddie bailouts, etc.) has been spent so far in BOTH administrations. Then divide that out to ALL tax paying adults. What could have been given to the PEOPLE (and thus stimulate the economy - maybe I'm naive there) instead of to corporations. For Pete's Sake! After all the money GM was given they're STILL talking Chapter 11!!! WTF???

After that said, I'd say I agree with #2 & 3 there, Sigy.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I have the same question!

I think the current approach is horse-puckies. (And that's an insult to horse-puckies everywhere.) Tell me where I'm wrong in my understanding: SOME home loans were unaffordable. They got bundled up into CDOs and sold to BankA, who used them as assets and 20X leveraged that money to InvestmentFirmB, who used THAT as an asset and 35X leveraged it to BankC. Meanwhile, InsuranceCompanyD sold insurances on those CDOs to BankA and InvestmentFirmB, and 35X leveraged THAT money to InvestmentFirmD!

Now, those few original bad loans, which may have poisoned $10million, has suddenly leveraged into a $50 TRILLION dollar problem!

WOULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN FAR CHEAPER TO RENEGOTIATE THE ORIGINAL BAD MORTGAGES, EVEN WITH GOVERNMENT SUPPORT?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:58 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
SOME home loans were unaffordable. They got bundled up into CDOs and sold to BankA A, who used them as assets and 20X leveraged that money to InvestmentFirmB, who used THAT as an asset and 35X leveraged it to BankC. Meanwhile, InsuranceCompanyD sold insurances on those CDOs to BankA and InvestmentFirmB, and 35X leveraged THAT money to InvestmentFirmD!



Wow. That just gave me a headache....

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
FWIW, I was invited to a tea party, by a left-wing group. Too bad I had to work that day.

I see three sides to this argument:

1) Status quo. Continue on the course BUSH started, and bail out the big banks, insurances, and corporations. Go even further into debt.

Was against that, from the start

Quote:

2) Get pissed off about taxes and "big government", stop ALL stimulous spending. Let banks, insurances, businesses, and improvident people all fail.
Was FOR that, from the start

Quote:



3) Require that government spending be redirected to people not corporations. Stop shoveling money to the rich.



Why should there be ANY new spending ? Seems to me , that's the main problem. NO NEW SPENDING!






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Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:01 AM

CHRISISALL


2 and 3.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I have the same question!

I think the current approach is horse-puckies. (And that's an insult to horse-puckies everywhere.) Tell me where I'm wrong in my understanding: SOME home loans were unaffordable. They got bundled up into CDOs and sold to BankA, who used them as assets and 20X leveraged that money to InvestmentFirmB, who used THAT as an asset and 35X leveraged it to BankC. Meanwhile, InsuranceCompanyD sold insurances on those CDOs to BankA and InvestmentFirmB, and 35X leveraged THAT money to InvestmentFirmD!

Now, those few original bad loans, which may have poisoned $10million, has suddenly leveraged into a $50 TRILLION dollar problem!

WOULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN FAR CHEAPER TO RENEGOTIATE THE ORIGINAL BAD MORTGAGES, EVEN WITH GOVERNMENT SUPPORT?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.



Here's the part that kills me:

The "loans" were toxic. THE PROPERTY WAS NOT, AND IS NOT, TOXIC! It's still real estate, it still has value, it will still in all likelihood appreciate in value. If you REALLY had to rejigger the numbers, then do it already, and have a FAIR VALUE (not an overinflated one) assigned by an arbitrator - then the bank takes part of the loss, and the borrower takes part of the loss.

Why would that not have worked?

AnthonyT had said before that he was probably losing his house - how much better for the economy if the house were revalued at its REAL "today" value, and he were allowed to keep it? And there are hundreds of thousands of others just like him. There isn't anything wrong with their houses, except that the bloated market had them overvalued. Anthony takes a bit of a haircut, the bank does the same, and everyone gets something, and both sides lose some, but not EVERYTHING, they had invested.

Probably too crazy an idea to ever be workable...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:43 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Quote:
2) Get pissed off about taxes and "big government", stop ALL stimulous spending. Let banks, insurances, businesses, and improvident people all fail.
Was FOR that, from the start

Quote:


3) Require that government spending be redirected to people not corporations. Stop shoveling money to the rich.


Why should there be ANY new spending ? Seems to me , that's the main problem. NO NEW SPENDING!



Does that apply to letting failed states and improvident dictators fail all on their own without any "push" from us?

And when you say "NO NEW SPENDING", does that include foreign entanglements and invasions? Seems you're usually FOR those kinds of things, even when they cost hundreds of billions, or even trillions, of dollars.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:44 PM

WHOZIT


4) Keith Olberman kills himself on the air.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Kwicko, it would have been far cheaper even if the government had simply BOUGHT the goddamn loans from the banks at 85% value and renegotiated with owners themselves. By the time they're done trying to fill in all of the (leveraged) losses which have been multiplied and remultiplied through the system they will have spent an order of magnitude more money than the original problem!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 2:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA


4.

Alas do not have time to fully explain, but a large tax abatement for homeowners in hock would be a useful helping hand - does it make sense to rob them blind with taxes, gnaw the take to the bone and chuck it back ?

When you could give relief instantly by not robbing them in the first place - since if you do it the other way every goddamn gov employed vulture in the circular chain it passes through gets their own tiny bite till there's almost nothin left.

Oh, and apparently Obama took one look at our shitty rail system and make the same conclusion I did, although I woulda pushed harder for something powered by alternative energy myself.

-F

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Kwicko, it would have been far cheaper even if the government had simply BOUGHT the goddamn loans from the banks at 85% value and renegotiated with owners themselves. By the time they're done trying to fill in all of the (leveraged) losses which have been multiplied and remultiplied through the system they will have spent an order of magnitude more money than the original problem!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.



Well, yeah... I'll grant you that, Signy. The only reason I even bring it up as an idea is because to a - ahem - certain bunch of people around here, buying the loans "for the homeowners" is going to sound an awful lot like "socialism". Never mind that the loans would be bought, then renegotiated, and they would be paid back - or at least their REAL adjusted value would be paid. All some people would hear is the "buying the loans from the banks" part of it, and they'll never go for it.


Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:50 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, yeah... I'll grant you that, Signy. The only reason I even bring it up as an idea is because to a - ahem - certain bunch of people around here, buying the loans "for the homeowners" is going to sound an awful lot like "socialism". Never mind that the loans would be bought, then renegotiated, and they would be paid back - or at least their REAL adjusted value would be paid. All some people would hear is the "buying the loans from the banks" part of it, and they'll never go for it.



I'll count myself in your "certain bunch" because it is socialism. Or a move in that direction at the very least. That said, buying the loans outright would have actually been much less socialistic than the corporate welfare scam the current administration is propagating.

It's really a done deal. The money, however many trillions of dollars it all adds up to, is already spent. All that's left is the unpalatable choice of either writing that money off, or demanding that we "get something for our money" - ie public control over the companies we've "invested" in. That very clearly IS socialism. Either way we lose, unless you're a fan of socialism, which I realize some of you are.

You guys want to insinuate that only people bothered by the idea of socialism are the wealthy and the stupid, but I think you know better.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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